Naturally aspirated engine in 818 experience?

[bimmerbill]

Good morning everyone,
Has anyone used a naturally aspirated Subaru engine in their 818?
If so, are you happy with the performance? Why did you chose it over the WRX engine?
I know the NA engines are less complicated, but make less power.
I completed rebuilding a NA engine a few months ago and came across a 818 with lots of work done on it to include the donor car parts. Was considering putting my NA engine in the 818 and selling the WRX stuff.
I'm sure I'd be happier with the WRX engine, but my wallet would be WAY happier with the NA!
Thanks,
Bill

[bimmerbill]

I guess I should give more details... I built an EJ222, the phase 2 EJ22, 2.2L, 142HP, 149 torque. I was planning to put a Mercedes Kompressor Eaton M62 on it and running 5 or 6 PSI. So I have the supercharger, rising rate fuel pressure regulator, wideband Air/Fuel gauge, top mount intercooler and piping, etc. I ported (gasket matched) the intake manifold and exhaust manifold, put in WRX/STI springs, new valves, delta Cams 1500 grind camshafts. New clutch, flywheel, gaskets, etc.

[Hindsight]

The green 818 in Factory Five's gallery has a NA engine in it. The guy who bought it is in New Zealand (I think) and he is a fairly active member of the forum but his name escapes me right now.

Both the NA and the Turbo engine work great. To do a turbo right, you have to add a lot of time and parts($) on things that aren't part of the standard kit build from FFR. Examples include an air to water intercooler (or a more elaborate air to air setup which has yet to be successfully done), an oil catch can or air oil separator, oil cooler, and some other things depending on how much power you are targeting.

So knowing the above, it comes down to a personal decision about how much power you want and how much additional money and time you are willing to spend to get the added power of the turbo. Divide the 818 curb weight by the horsepower of a NA Subaru engine and compare that power to weight ratio of some other modern cars to get a feeling for how fast it is and if it would be enough for you.

[bimmerbill]

Thanks Hindsight! Your posts are very informative and I've already learned a lot! The instruction manual shows installing the air to air intercooler. I've read people have cooling issues, but is that only on cars at the track?

[Pearldrummer7]

Echo what Hindsight said. I am trying my first track day with my turbo/AAIC setup. There are times I wish I just went NA. No lag, much cheaper and simpler. It really depends on your goals, though. Can't go wrong either way!

[C.Plavan]

If I knew what I knew now- I would of had a hot NA 2.5L built if I stuck with an EJ motor at all.

[TrickyPete]

I'm building an N/A one. I've only driven it up and down my street 2 or 3 times and every time its left rubber on the ground and I was even trying not to...I don't have an excessive appetite for speed so I believe it will be enough power for me

[flynntuna]

The complexity of the turbo setup (to do it right) is why I'm considering the ez30. The 230 to 250hp is plenty for me on this platform.

[Buzz Skyline]

You might be able to get away without an air to water intercooler in a turbo car, if you stay on the street. But I wouldn't do it. There is no airflow back there, and the air to air intercooler gets hot even if you avoid getting on boost. Seems like a recipe for disaster if you ever drive enthusiastically at all. I would probably go with a NA if I had it to do over again.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

If I knew what I knew now- I would of had a hot NA 2.5L built if I stuck with an EJ motor at all.

Chad,
I'd like to know more of your thoughts on this. I have 2 more 818S chassis siting in my barn.
I had 2 donors, 2004 forester XT 2.5L turbo and 2006 NA impreza wagon with a rod knock.
Michael's blue chassis got the turbo. Maybe $400 to $600 in AWIC parts. Not very complex.
One of the remaining chassis will be electric.
The other remaining chassis I was looking for another turbo motor or rebuilding the NA motor.
Convince me to go NA. I have high respect for your opinions
Bob

[Flamshackle]

Chad,
I'd like to know more of your thoughts on this. I have 2 more 818S chassis siting in my barn.
I had 2 donors, 2004 forester XT 2.5L turbo and 2006 NA impreza wagon with a rod knock.
Michael's blue chassis got the turbo. Maybe $400 to $600 in AWIC parts. Not very complex.
One of the remaining chassis will be electric.
The other remaining chassis I was looking for another turbo motor or rebuilding the NA motor.
Convince me to go NA. I have high respect for your opinions
Bob

I am not chad, but I would go NA 3.0 6 in a heart beat. better response, better traction control, better SOUND! a little heavier but easy reliable horsepower. hard to beat.

I am going to build my coupe with the 6.

[C.Plavan]

Chad,
I'd like to know more of your thoughts on this. I have 2 more 818S chassis siting in my barn.
I had 2 donors, 2004 forester XT 2.5L turbo and 2006 NA impreza wagon with a rod knock.
Michael's blue chassis got the turbo. Maybe $400 to $600 in AWIC parts. Not very complex.
One of the remaining chassis will be electric.
The other remaining chassis I was looking for another turbo motor or rebuilding the NA motor.
Convince me to go NA. I have high respect for your opinions
Bob

Just the simplicity. We add a whole lot of weight just to get the turbo working OK. A 3.0L would be great for racing for me if they made a Dry Sump pan for it. If you are not worried about that, then I would go NA 3.0L like the others have stated.

"Simplify and add lightness"

[bimmerbill]

Thanks for all the great info. I won't avoid getting into the boost! Nothing wrong with getting to the speed limit the quickest and safest way I can, is there?
I'm in NH, so need to have ODBII, so not sure the 3.0 would work and allow me to pass inspection.
I have the rebuilt 2.2L phase II with Delta Cam 1500s, ported heads/intake/exhaust and have another 2.2 for parts/spare.
And I'll have the 2004 WRX 2.0L turbo engine that I'm getting with the car.

[jaw777]

So on this topic, I went with the 2002 2.0 turbo. (My son insisted on the turbo.) This is for an 818s, but I plan to drive it pretty hard. What should I be doing to make sure this thing stays cool enough and can someone point me to the thread.

Thank you.

[bimmerbill]

Looks like most recommend the air to water inter cooler. I've found several vendors on this site who sell a kit with all the parts.
I have not found a thread discussing the heat issues and if anyone runs with the TMIC from the WRX motor, but I just started reading thru all of this info!

[Hindsight]

It's been a while since anyone posted intake temps with a stock TMIC. 9+ months ago I was seeing reports of 140+ degree intake temps from someone but I can't remember exactly.

My advice would be to go to the build threads sub-forum and start reading. It will take weeks or months but the information you'll find is invaluable. C.Plavan's thread is a great one... pretty sure he went AWIC from the start but he did have overheating issues initially. Andrew and Tamra's thread is another good one, but there are plenty of others as well. Focus on the threads from people who have their car on the road.

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad,
I'd like to know more of your thoughts on this. I have 2 more 818S chassis siting in my barn.
I had 2 donors, 2004 forester XT 2.5L turbo and 2006 NA impreza wagon with a rod knock.
Michael's blue chassis got the turbo. Maybe $400 to $600 in AWIC parts. Not very complex.
One of the remaining chassis will be electric.
The other remaining chassis I was looking for another turbo motor or rebuilding the NA motor.
Convince me to go NA. I have high respect for your opinions
Bob

I'm not Chad, but I'll take a small shot at it!

How much HP does a Spec Miata have? Do Spec Miata drivers have a blast of a good time?

A new Mazda crate motor has 109 HP in the 1.6L and weighs 2300 lbs. A perfectly built professional Spec Miata motor might make 120 Hp.

Now imagine how much would a Spec Miata driver like one that corners at 1.6 Gs and weighs 2000 Lbs? Or maybe less than 2000?

Yes, you could have a ton of fun. And save bucks on brake pads and everything else!

I race a 1990 Acura Integra, 145 Hp, 2500 lbs, in our conference version of Honda Challenge 4. I used to own the car, I sold it to a friend who let's me co-drive Enduros with him. It's a blast to drive too. And believe me, there have been multiple times lately when I look at the simplicity of that NA Honda B18 motor and wonder what have I done! I melted the motor once when I took a rock thru the radiator. $1100 later I had a great JDM B18 in it and running stronger than before.

Oh yeah, I can see a NA motor in a 818. You just have to concentrate on the thrill of cornering at outrageous speeds and not so much on the top speed.

However you'd still have to dry sump it at those cornering forces if you are going to road race it. But seeing that it's an S you won't need a DS in autox event.

[craigfree]

You're not the only one.
http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u420/CraigFree/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150526_240152019_zpsxyfowfwy.jpg (http://s1066.photobucket.1 (800) 922-0204com/user/CraigFree/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150526_240152019_zpsxyfowfwy.jpg.html)

[bimmerbill]

Nice, what are you going to do for engine management/wire harness? I'd have to piggy back a regular ECU so I could have an ODBII port to pass inspections here in NH I think.

[philly15]

It's been a while since anyone posted intake temps with a stock TMIC. 9+ months ago I was seeing reports of 140+ degree intake temps from someone but I can't remember exactly..

Im going to install an intake temp sensor soon and get some accurate readings. i am still running a TMIC (05 sti tmic) on a 2.5 out of a 06 wrx, short ram intake stock td04. I wish i would have had something while road tuning and the first autocross i did. both days it was 90+ with almost 100% humidity. car still ran very well considering.

[Wayne Presley]

I've had a H6 EZ30 in my 818 (chassis #006) since Oct 2013

[craigfree]

I've had a H6 EZ30 in my 818 (chassis #006) since Oct 2013

Thank god you did, because I followed your lead, but you turboed yours for big power.

I went ez30r, which actually required to offset the engine back 3/4 of an inch due to the extra length of the cam phasor. I'll likely be using a haltech ecu, a co-worker deals them and says it's not an issue to get the avcs and avls working.

Sadly, it's going to be awhile until I get it running, spending more time and money working on the house than the car lately.

[flynntuna]

Craigfree, do you have a build thread?

[Sgt.Gator]

Well I guess you can officially add the NA BRZ engine to the 818!
I like the NA BRZ as an option. Cobb Accessport supported. 200HP.
Plenty of Turbo and Supercharger options if you later want to go big.
We'll just have to develop a dry sump pan for it.

https://staticapp.icpsc.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/1035541/300767243de248504fbc80ecf3c1b5a2/image/jpeg

"In addition to providing design options for the 818, we've been looking at continuing to offer powertrain options. A lot of people have been asking for American engines to be used in the 818. We've worked with the guys from Ford, and will be filming a show with PowerNation's "Engine Power" in October to install the new 2.3L EcoBoost 4 from the 2015 Mustang. We are also adding the Subaru BRZ engine which is a 200 hp normally aspirated boxer engine. Both of these new powerplants promise big fun and will debut at SEMA 2015."

[C.Plavan]

They can't keep the oil pressure up on the race track with the BRZ motor. Element has gone through a few.

[Sgt.Gator]

They can't keep the oil pressure up on the race track with the BRZ motor. Element has gone through a few.

With an Element Dry Sump?

[C.Plavan]

With an Element Dry Sump?

He was complaining about the oil pump in the brz they race.

[305mouse]

You can already get a JDM turbo FA engine also. If the NA will fit, I'm sure the other will too.

[Sgt.Gator]

I think a NA FA BRZ engine would be perfect to use for a Spec 818 race class. It's too difficult to enforce HP dyno rules with turbo cars. And an NA Spec 818 would be much more reliable and simple to operate, the draw of most Spec classes.

[bimmerbill]

Sent an email to someone with a 2001 Outback with H6 motor, so hope to hear back from them. I'd have to pull the harness too I guess?

[Sgt.Gator]

Bumping this thread to see if anybody has completed a NA 2.5 build yet? I blew the turbo engine in my LGT this weekend at Pacific Raceways (two years in a row!!). While contemplating the problem in the paddock a guy who has lusted after my LGT wagon for years came by to see what happened and made me an offer to buy it as is. I accepted. So now i'm looking to buy an 818R soon. I'm pretty fed up with high powered 4 cyl turbo engines and am looking very strongly at using a dry sumped NA 2.5. I'd love to hear from anyone who has already built an NA!

[Mitch Wright]

Sorry to hear agout your engine problem, good news that you are looking at a 818R for track use.
Offering my opinion on this subject, I have a quite a bit of road racing turbo experience (Not Boxer engines) and found them to be very reliable. Granted we were not sizing turbos for maximum power but for a broad power band and at lower boost levels.
Got a chance today to do a few laps in Bob and Micheals 818, the car is pretty quick (200 whp) at 10psi boost. My point is in a 818 at modest power levels it will be hard to match the power out put of a NA engine at a fraction of the cost.

[Hindsight]

Look at the green wilwood car on factory five's 818 gallery. It's NA. It is owned by a forum member named Hendow: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/search.php?searchid=1950193

[Sgt.Gator]

Sorry to hear agout your engine problem, good news that you are looking at a 818R for track use.
Offering my opinion on this subject, I have a quite a bit of road racing turbo experience (Not Boxer engines) and found them to be very reliable. Granted we were not sizing turbos for maximum power but for a broad power band and at lower boost levels.
Got a chance today to do a few laps in Bob and Micheals 818, the car is pretty quick (200 whp) at 10psi boost. My point is in a 818 at modest power levels it will be hard to match the power out put of a NA engine at a fraction of the cost.

I wish I could say the same, I've blown three Subaru engines in one year, two in the race car and one in a Spec B daily driver.

You are probably right on the reliability if I turn the boos down. My goal is to run NASA ST3 at the Thunderhill 25 Hour in 2017; I only need around 200HP.


Look at the green wilwood car on factory five's 818 gallery. It's NA. It is owned by a forum member named Hendow: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/search.php?searchid=1950193
Good looking car. His YouTube videos re interetsing in the rain.

Thanks to both of you!

[DodgyTim]

The Wilwood was NA at SEMA but became a late model (2012 WRX??) when it was imported to Australia. Hendow lives in Perth, Australia

[Sgt.Gator]

The Wilwood was NA at SEMA but became a late model (2012 WRX??) when it was imported to Australia. Hendow lives in Perth, Australia
I thought I heard the sound of a turbo spooling in the intake in his video!

[Rasmus]

I love to know if we could fit a transverse mounted LS V8 in the back, somehow. Mated to a transverse manual transmission. Destroke it with an OEM 3.267" crankshaft dropped into a block with 4.065" bores. Displacing 339 cubic inches (5.56L). You've have a rev-tastaic (8,000 RPM) NA monster that'd produce about 605 hp. And that's with carburetors. See HRM's build (http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/4-8l-crank-ls3-block-how-to-build-an-8000-rpm-ls-stroker/).

[longislandwrx]

There's also some development work going on for itbs on the FA20. I think 250 hp is the goal with standalone. that would be a nice light package.

[C.Plavan]

There's also some development work going on for itbs on the FA20. I think 250 hp is the goal with standalone. that would be a nice light package.

Should be OK for a street car, but there are issues with oil pressure for a track car. I looked at that route.

[Sgt.Gator]

There's also some development work going on for itbs on the FA20. I think 250 hp is the goal with standalone. that would be a nice light package.

Along with the lack of oil issues> as explained in another thread none of BRZ/FRS engines will bolt up to the trannys we use. Only the FA in the 2015 WRX will, and it has a low mount turbo. And none of them have a dry sump solution yet.

[longislandwrx]

never say never

54095

[Sgt.Gator]

never say never

54095

Who makes that dry sump pan?

And I've been reading more on the FA20DIT. I see no reason (so far) we couldn't use the WRX shortblock (FA20DIT) but swap in FA20 internals, heads, and the rest for essentially a FA20 complete engine using the FA20DIT block that bolts up to the trannys we use. in fact most performance builders now C0-list their stage 1-2-3 builds as FA20/FA20DIT. Then we could use the oem ecu and all the other aftermarket parts.

You can buy just the FA20DIT case halves , Part Number: 11010AB380, for MSRP $1103. Then take everything else from a FA20 and swap them over. At least that's my theory.

And now that you've found a dry sump.......

Found another one. Ken Stout racing:

54432

According to their website and blog it's a Dailey Dry Sump System.
"We had serpentine failures twice last year that took the oil pump belt with it resulting in engine failure and that has been addressed. "
A writer on FT86 says "an external oil pump setup run off a custom water pump pulley"

Phil at Element Tuning is also working on a dry sump solution but his most recent posts on IWISTI indicate he's not happy with it yet.

[turbomacncheese]

If I knew what I knew now- I would of had a hot NA 2.5L built if I stuck with an EJ motor at all.

How hot can a NA 2.5 be built?

[Sgt.Gator]

How hot can a NA 2.5 be built?

I've had several discussions with builders on that topic. Using the 2.5i SOHC NA engine a couple *think* it *might* be possible to hit 215 RWHP. Mostly they stick to around 185 RWHP as the max. To get to 215 they were talking all the usual NA stuff like High Compression, Stroker, Cams, Balanced.

I've yet to find anyone who's tried using a 2.5 DOHC AVCS or DAVCS as a base for an NA engine. No one I've spoken with knows what kind of NA power is possible if you take full advantage of the DOHC AVCS or DAVCS. That would require a custom tune using an aftermarket ECU.

All of the above blows the $$$$ sky high compared to a small turbo, which is why no one does it.

Two of the best communities I've found for the 2.5 NA are the 25RS forum: http://www.rs25.com/forums/f5-n-tuning/ ( Note the Sticky thread "200 HP from a 2.5 n/a with just bolt ons??" and the Legacy NA forum: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/faq-subaru-legacy-2-5i-115322.html

[turbomacncheese]

That sounds about like the same stuff I've been reading. 200 simply won't be enough, especially when all that extra cash could be stuffed into a proper turbo engine. Looks like there just isn't any way around it.

[fastfox]

It's been a few years, but a buddy of mine was getting into rally racing back in 2009ish and was gonna use his WRX. Problem is you have to start in open-light if you wanna be awd. Open-light is NA only... we dreamed up and built the EJ257 from an STi into a 2.3l destroked rev monster. :D 2.0 crank, 100mm bore (.5mm over stock), balanced the assembly for 9500 rpm. 13:1 compression and some custom spec'd cams that a local builder came up with put us at 260 wheel hp. Once he learned how to drive a rally car he was about untouchable if he didn't crash. lol. That's about the highest hp I've heard of in NA Scooby 4s...

[longislandwrx]

Who makes that dry sump pan?



sorry I missed this reply

Hypertune Australia makes a kit. you can contact them on facebook. I think its about $3800

http://www.hypertune.net/

[turbomacncheese]

Man, that sounds like a lot of work for 260...and a lot of $$.