Jazzman’s #8745 "Flip Top" Build [Archive] - Page 2

Jazzman

07-08-2016, 03:43 AM

This may be a holiday shortened week, but the volume of work has not been reduced. Thus my time working on the car has been very limited. I have been consulting with 2BKing about surface preparation prior to fiberglassing. He suggested that my fiberglass bond strength would be more consistent and stronger if I did not have any of the red gelcoat remaining at that joint. He likened it to bonding two surfaces together with a coat of paint in between. We don't know how strong the bond will be to the paint, nor do we know how strong the paint itself might be. Therefore for maximum strength, we remove the paint before we bond the two surfaces together. That makes sense to me.

So with the help of my new best friend (an electric angle grinder with a flapped sanding disk) I made a lot of dust in short period of time. I got all the red gelcoat off the edge of the old hood, and I feathered down even more the intersection with the body. I have not yet decided if I will grind it all the way down to be a completely smooth transition. My intent had been to leave to small lip at the edge as one more stiffening edge that would be enhanced by several more layers of fiberglass. I will sleep on it, and look at it again tomorrow.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55869&d=1467964084

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55870&d=1467964085

I did discover my new best friend has a temper. If I don't pay very close attention, he can quickly grind too deeply, cutting through the first layer of old hood glass.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55871&d=1467964086

After grinding to the depth I think I want, I used the RO palm sander to smooth and feather all the recently ground edging. I think I am going to have to complete the cut to separate the hood from the body before I can complete the grinding and feathering of the edge and being the fibreglassing process. I am not yet exactly sure where to stop attaching the old hood to the body. I know where it is on the top side of the body, but I don't know exactly where it is on the bottom side.

I began trying to sand off the green composite/metal cement used to attach the perforated discs. Wow, is that stuff ever hard!! It was like trying to sand granite! I am not sure what I am going to do about the little bumps. I may just leave them there and glass over them. I have been told that if I heat the cement with a plumbers torch, the cement turns into the consistency of chewing gum. I will have to use this technique to remove one of the discs that slipped. I hope I don't have to do very many more.

Jazzman

07-09-2016, 03:52 AM

I continued cutting the body in half tonight. I cut slowly, and then bolted a support strap across that cut as I went.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55905&d=1468052988

I got almost done with the cut on the passenger side. With about 4 inches to go I realized that I must glass in the old hood from the back side before I complete the cut. If I did not glass in first, there would be a narrow triangular piece where the body connects at the rear of the old hood that would be loose.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55901&d=1468052986

I rechecked all the sanded areas, and finding them ready, began glassing in the seam from the back side. The first layer is narrow, just three inches wide. I think I am getting better with the vinylester resin. I mixed six ounces this time, which was plenty for the task. I used one drop less of hardener per ounce of resin, and the working time was quite useable. I did not take the step of pouring it into the plastic plate, because I was not convinced that it really was necessary. I had finished the entire job, had a little left over, and about 5 minutes later the leftovers turned to jello. Just about perfect.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55903&d=1468052987

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55902&d=1468052987

Practice does make for improvement. I felt this glass session went very smoothly, and the glass itself also laid down very smoothly. A successful next step. I will let this cure for 8 hours, then lay a second layer with a wider glass panel.

Jazzman

07-10-2016, 01:39 AM

Slow but productive day today. After sanding the first layer of glass to feather the edges and rough up the entire surface for better adhesion, I laid on the second layer. Before I began, I wiped down the entire area with acetone to remove any remaining sanding dust or other debris. This layer is four inches wide. It took 8 oz of resin for the job. I had a bit left over, but not enough to worry about. No photos because, guess what, it looks just like the first one! That's good I guess. Getting all the tiny air bubbles out is challenging. Just when you think you've got them all, a couple more show up. I pushed the entire body out into the sun. I finally found a good use for 106 degree heat! That layer cured up a lot faster than the previous one!

After one more complete sanding for smoothness and edge feathering and a thorough acetone wipe down, I laid on the third and last layer. This one is 5" wide. It sure looks and feels strong, and I haven't even done the permanent top layers yet. Tomorrow I hope to complete the body separation cuts and begin fabricating the support channel extension on the body.

WIS89

07-10-2016, 06:55 AM

Kevin-

Thanks for the info on the discs! I will grab myself a couple for one of the projects I have going.

I admire your ability to stop mid-cut to remember that you had to do some fiberglass work. Once I get cutting, I take it through to the end; nice catch!!

Still looking good. I really enjoy following along. I followed King's build, and if you do as well, it will be great!!

Thanks for sharing your progress!

Regards,

Steve

Jazzman

07-11-2016, 01:25 AM

The old hood and the body are now one piece. The glass is all hard, and is very smooth. I would like to say it is completely bubble free, but that would not be entirely truthful. Even after chasing bubbles in each layer, and believing I got every last one of them, there are still a few bubbles here and there. I hope that the overall strength will be enough to overshadow these minor imperfections.

I began the day by completing all the cutting to actually separate the body from the hood. I would cut about six inches, then attach a "Band-Aid": an aluminum strap that is bolted through the fiberglass skin to keep the two sides exactly where they were prior to the cut. I had taken a lot of measurements with the body on the frame, then made sure that when the body was upside down those measurements were the same. It was surprisingly simple to keep everything in line by this method. The "Teeth" really did their job nicely. Very solid alignment. Because I had everything dialed it like I wanted it, I hesitated to turn the body over to complete the dividing cuts. So I worked slowly and carefully, laying underneath the body and cutting from the underside of the upside down body (The "top" but it was facing the floor at the moment.) One side came out about as close to perfect as I think I could get. I was very pleased, confident that my process would work. I moved to the other side and . . .

I hate progressive tri-focals! Ok, I don't hate them, usually I am quite thankful for them. Yes, I am of that age that my once eagle sharp eyes are no more, and I depend upon the refractive assistance of glasses. So I am laying on the ground, covered in fiberglass dust (yes, of course I am wearing my breathing mask!!) and I am trying to get a clear view of the blade as it slowly slices through the skin. My vision gets out of focus, and I discover that I am off of my line by between 1/16" to 1/8". Arrrghh!! I get back on track, but I have a goofy curve in my cut line that I will have to sand out. I suspect that by the time I gap the hood and body, that miss will be very minor.

I move on to begin making the ribs that will stiffen the sides of the hood. I start by cutting 2" wide strips of 1" thick PVC foam board 48" long. This is H45 PVC FOAM that I purchased from Aircraft Spruce, part #01-12800. I cut this in half to have two 24" long pieces. I plan to put a 10 degree bevel on each end, so I draw that on the ribs. The PVC foam board is quite stiff. In order for it to curve around the inside of the hood, I am going to have to cut some relief cuts to allow the foam to bend without breaking. I start by make marks on the side of the rib 1" apart, and make a second mark on the side that is 1/2" offset from the first marks. The idea is that I will cut the side that will be bent inward on the table saw about 1/2" deep, and I will use a razor knife to cut the offset cuts on the other side to allow the rib to bend without breaking. Here is what I it looks like before I made the cuts:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55951&d=1468179764

And here is what it looks like after you cut the kerfs on each side, and discover that they are too far apart and the rib breaks!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55953&d=1468179765

So I started out again. Recut a second 2" wide strip, cut it in half, made my 10 degree angles on the ends. This time I make my kerf cuts 3/4" apart on one side, and offset my razor cuts on the opposite side, being careful to only go about half way through the 1" thick foam board. This time I also sanded the outside edges to put a nice rounded edge on them. I also sanded the bevel on each end to it was nice and smooth. (This had to be the easiest sanding I had done thus far on this project!!) Here is what I got:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55974&d=1468218150

Here is how it looks as it bends:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55975&d=1468218151

Now I have to figure out how to hold it in place as the glue dries. I need a few c-clamps that have a throat of 10"! Nope, even I don't have any of those. I am not even sure where to find them. I will have to go hunting.

Jazzman

07-11-2016, 01:46 AM

Big moment tonight. In order to gain access to installing and glassing the ribs, I decided to finally separate the body from the hood. With my wife dutifully holding on to the hood, I removed all the "band-aids". Even after removing all the straps, the body remained joined to the hood. A little bit of the Vinylester resin had run down into the edge and glued the section together. After a couple of gentle taps of encouragement by my rubber mallet, the body and hood were officially separated.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55976&d=1468218151

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55979&d=1468218153

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55977&d=1468218152

Now that I have access, I can start laying in the ribs. I decided to place the primary side rib 1" behind the rear most point of side louver openings. (Yes, this time I rechecked all of FFR's measurements. They were pretty close, only about 1/8 inch off. I corrected that difference, and made appropriate markings.) I got to this point, and realized that I really don't have an effective way to hold the ribs in place while the cement dries. I also need to cut a couple more relief kerfs to relieve some stress along the long side wall. I think I will also bevel the ends of the ribs a bit more once they are glued in place. I will sort of feather them into the hood.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55980&d=1468218154

Jazzman

07-12-2016, 02:13 AM

Two more steps forward, one back. I began by working more on the ribs for the side walls of the hood. After sleeping on it overnight, I figured a way to hold the ribs in place while the glue dried. I chose to use Gorilla Glue because it expands as it cures and seems to be impervious to almost everything once it is dried!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56031&d=1468305713

After the glue dried, I had a lot of glue that had expanded it way out around the rib. A few minutes with a utility knife, and the offending foam was cut away. I then used the RO Palm sander to shape the top end of the rib (the one nearest to the center of the hood) to feather it smoothly into the body.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56034&d=1468305714

I then moved on to smoothing out the rough spots on the perforated attachment discs. The King himself (2BKing to be exact) was kind enough to loan me a customized tool that he developed just for this purpose. When attached to a drill, and the business end placed over the threaded shaft of the perforated disc, it allows the cutters to shave off the excess cement that has squeezed out through the perforations.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56033&d=1468305714

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56032&d=1468305713

The tool works great, and has one added benefit: it tests the strength of the bond that holds the perforated discs. In my case, several of the bonds were not strong enough.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56036&d=1468305715

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56037&d=1468305716

I found far too many of these discs were failing. I am very glad I discovered it now rather than later. With 2BKing's assistance, I reviewed my preparations procedures. I sanded each area, I vacuumed it clean, I cleaned the area with Acetone, I mixed the cement using the mixing nozzles specified in the instructions. The only thing I did not do was clean the area with a wax removing compound. Since the area was sanded, I expected that any residual wax would have been removed. Appearantly not. The cement itself actually popped off the body. Therefore the weak link is the interface of cement and Vinylester Resin. The back of the failed discs had a vaguely waxy feel to them. It also seemed that the cement itself was not quite hardened in the center. It was suggested that I use House Of Color KC10 to remove any wax residue. I will see about ordering a quart of that and use it everywhere before I do any more bonding or glassing.

Jazzman

07-14-2016, 03:12 AM

Yesterday I had a very productive email conversation with one of the many helpful people on this forum, Jeff Kleiner. I was asking questions about what sanding tools and supplies to buy. He was very gracious and offered very helpful suggestions. One of his best suggestions was to make contact with a local supplier so that I can get both supplies and useful information. I searched around my area, and found that there are really not that many choices even in an area as populous as Phoenix. I decided upon one that had been in business for 50 years. That seemed like they might know a thing or two. Today I went to talk to them, and learned a great deal. They were able to provide me the sanding blocks and Stickit sandpaper that I needed. They also were able to provide several of the circular grinding disks that I use with my Die Grinder. Scott was a wealth of information, and suggested that I get the cheaper box of discs because they will last a lot longer. I was very impressed, and he was right!

The one thing that blew my mind was the difficulty of getting wax remover. I discovered that in my area it is against the law to sell Wax removers for this purpose because they are not VOC compliant. (I am not entirely clear as to what a VOC is, but I did learn it is some sort of environmental risk. Hmmm) Anyway, he suggested that I first use a rough disk sander on the die grinder to buff away the top layer where I want to glue the perforated disks. Next he suggested that I use lacquer thinner to clean the area, using one rag to wipe on the thinner, then a clean rag to scrub off any excess. Finally he said that I should clean the area with a 50/50 mixture of alcolhol and water. I had to wait about 15 minutes to be sure all the water had evaporated even after wiping it dry with a clean rag. I did of these, then cemented new perforated discs on the five locations that had come off. For the ones that were on vertical surfaces, I used tape to hold the perf disc in place while the cement hardened. We shall see if they hold on better this time.

I spend the rest of my evening catching up on "Mr. Robot" while I waited for my air compressor to catch up. I could work for about 4 minutes with the Die Grinder, then I had to wait about 10-12 minutes for the compressor to catch up. I am grinding off the gunky welds that I did on the trusses that will hold the hood. I am trying to get all the hood hinge pieces polished and ready to go to the powder coater. I probably won't be done by Friday due to the long wait for the compressor, but hopefully by the first of next week I can get them off to be coated. I want to get all the parts back so that I can install the hood when it is ready for that step.

Jazzman

07-15-2016, 02:36 AM

More truss grinding and glass laying tonight. I thought I would show you the specialized disks that they sold me. They are 3M purple grinding disks:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56196&d=1468566005

Appearantly the grinding compound on these disks is some sort of ceramic material. Regular grinding compounds round over and become dull. These ceramic materials don't round over. Rather, they break off in little shards leaving glass like edges always available (until there is nothing left to shatter.). They told me they were more expensive per disk, but would last two to three times as long. I still had a couple of the old style discs, so I tested their assertion. Sure enough, the Purple ones last far longer. Here is what I have been grinding on. Remember the trusses that hold the hood? Remember my less than entirely professional looking welds? Well this is the way to make it look nice.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56195&d=1468566004

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56194&d=1468566003

I am still trying to find the right scotch-brite disks to smooth out the scratches and really polish the trusses. I am not sure how to choose them or what grit to use to polish steel. I hope to get that done this weekend.

Last night I re-cemented the perforated disks to the underside of the hood. I used all the new cleaning techniques that I had been given. For some reason the bonding cement looked more thoroughly mixed this time when it came out of the nozzle. It shouldn't have been any different, but It seemed better. The technique of using a piece of blue masking tape to cover the perforated disks and hold them in place while the cement dries worked very well. Look at how nicely these are bonded. Hopefully that will be the last time I have to bond those discs.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56188&d=1468565999

After just a bit of sanding and cleaning around the perforated discs, I laid on the first layer of glass over the discs. I threaded a nut on each of the studs to protect the threads from the resin.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56190&d=1468566001

Then I laid the first layer of glass over the nicely sanded and feathered ribs.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56192&d=1468566002

Learned a number of lessons.
1. Compound curves like this are much more difficult to do.
2. PVC foam sucks up resin, but doesn't really stick to the fiberglass.
3. because of the compound curves, I had to cover the rib in two overlapping pieces. I will offset the seam on the next layer of glass.
4. getting all the air bubbles out of this this compound curve is very difficult.

I think it came out OK. I will have to see after I lay the second layer of glass. I am not sure if I will need a third layer, but I will consider it after the second one is cured.

skullandbones

07-15-2016, 11:05 AM

Hi Kevin,

Are you polishing the steel just to smooth it for paint prep or are you actually going for a high polished steel finish that's cleared. Sounds like a lot of work for the latter. I guess you have gotten to be such an expert with that polishing tool, you just have to put the new found talent to good use (ha - ha). Great project! I'm building an observatory and the 12 ft dome is killing me as it all has to be custom designed and fabricated (brackets and such). So I can really appreciated your journey. Even with a few guys doing it ahead of you, it looks like you are putting your on stamp on the work.

Good luck and continued success.

WEK.:cool::cool::cool:

Jazzman

07-15-2016, 02:20 PM

Thanks, SkullandBones! I will be having it powder coated black. I just want it to look like I care! My welding is getting better, but still has a ways to go. This just cleans it up a bit. I will look forward to seeing your observatory. I'll bet that your location will be good for that purpose. If you are building it in the middle of summer in 108 degree heat, you are crazier than I am!!! :)

I am certainly standing on the shoulders of giants, but I am trying to add my own mark to the project. The standards of this crowd are pretty high, I am just trying to keep up! Hope to see you soon.

Kevin

Jazzman

07-16-2016, 03:44 AM

I now have three layers of fiberglass on the hood sidewall ribs. (It doesn't look much different than two or one layer, so no photos of this.) It is already clearly apparent that the ribs are really going to stiffen the sidewalls of the hood. The sides are much more rigid than they were before the ribs were installed. They will get several more layers of glass.

I began this evening by making up my first batch of HSRF filler to fix some of my errors. I had previously placed a layer of fiberglass and resin on the inside of the DS opening for the exhaust pipes. I filled in the mistaken cut with an ample supply of HSFR filler. I will sand it back to shape tomorrow, then lay a layer of glass or two over it just to make sure it stays where it should.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56247&d=1468657068

I made up too big a batch of filler, so I decided to fill in the off line cut that I made when separating the body. Same basic process here, fill, shape, glass, sand.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56248&d=1468657068

I have been considereing how to extend the ledge at the front of the body that will hold the hood when it is closed. I left that section of the body intact, but of course it doesn't go all the way across the top of the body. I also wanted to construct a structural rib to support the weight of the hood when it is closed. After considering several methods to accomplish these goals, I decided to integrate the rib into the design of the ledge. I decided to create a foam rib that would go entirely across the underside of the body. I had to cut it and notch it to fit around the existing ledge. After it is glued into place with Gorilla Glue, I will sand and carve the remaining foam board to flow smoothly into the next phase of joint design. (I am drawing on 2BKing's design for that phase, but I will show it to you when it do it.)

This is how I formed the rib. I started with a 3" strip of 1" thick PVC Foam board. I notched the rib lengthwise 1" deep and 3/8" wide. I trimmed off this notch with a razor knife held at a 45 degree angle and held straight against my 18" metal ruler. I then found the section that had to be deepened to allow the new Foam rib to fit behind the existing fiberglass ledge. That series of cuts were slowly but easily done with a sharp razor knife and a straight edge. I

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56245&d=1468657067

After a bit of fitting and carving, I glued the rib to the underside of the body.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56249&d=1468657069

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56250&d=1468657070

wareaglescott

07-16-2016, 04:32 AM

Very interesting watching this progress! Can't wait to see the tilt in action.

Jeff Kleiner

07-16-2016, 06:18 AM

Oh man, you're gonna learn a lesson about HSRF today...that you really don't want to slather it on any heavier than absolutely necessary. It's like sanding granite! No harm, no foul, just extra work.

Cheers,
Jeff

Jazzman

07-16-2016, 05:30 PM

Well Jeff, it wasn't bad at all. Just a few minutes carving with the die grinder, and it fell right in to shape. I will want to add a skim coat and resand, but it came out fine. Here was the results:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56258&d=1468707556

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56263&d=1468707560

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56260&d=1468707558

I had to add a couple of 5" extensions to the rib/ledge that I am making on the underside of the body. I can't say enough good things about this Gorilla Glue. It really holds on well. A bit messy with the foamy excess that squeeze out, but it sure does the job.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56261&d=1468707558

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56262&d=1468707559

Jazzman

07-16-2016, 05:55 PM

I had to open the shop for this next job: grinding off the top layer of glass in preparation for putting the final glass layers in, sealing the seam forever. It was a nice 79 degrees in my shop before I opened the garage door. It was 106 after I opened it! Oh well, nothing worth doing comes easily, and this must really be what they call "sweat equity"! You can see by these pictures, I created a LOT of sanding dust. It is now everywhere!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56264&d=1468707560

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56265&d=1468707561

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56266&d=1468707562

2BKing said to grind it to created a valley that the glass will lay into. He said to grind it almost all the way through to the back side I just laid on. Here is what happens when I take his instructions too seriously and do not control the grinder for about 1 second:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56268&d=1468707563

The results seem good though. I was much more aggressive with the grinder than I have been in the past. I now understand that virtually anything can be fixed, it just a matter of how much time it will take.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56269&d=1468707563

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56270&d=1468707564

I can see that the convex portions of the hood or body will be easy to sand with hand or electric sander. However, The concave portions will be a challenge. I only have square sanding blocks. I may have to look for a round sanding block. Hmmm.

After doing all that sanding, It took me over 45 minutes to hose out the garage. It still have sanding dust everywhere , but I have at least blown off the first layer and washed it out of the garage. That was a chore.

Interestingly, up to this point I have not really had any problems with feeling itchy after sanding. I gave up on the bunny suit. Just too hot to survive. My system is to do all my sanding, vacuum up what I can as I go, then go outside, hose myself off, and jump in the pool for about 30 minutes. It is a nice way to relax, plus it seems to wash off and float out the majority of the fiberglass from my skin. However, after today's session, I am really itchy!! Oh well.

Jeff Kleiner

07-16-2016, 06:24 PM

You might already have a round sanding block right out by the pool---a foam pool noodle! If not get yourself down to Wal-Mart or the Dollar Store to pick one up. A 12 inch or so long section works great for the concaves around the headlights and such. :)

Jeff

Jazzman

07-16-2016, 06:25 PM

Now why didn't I think of that!! perfect. Thanks Jeff.

Jazzman

07-18-2016, 01:58 AM

Five layers of glass take a while to lay, but they take longer to cure, even in the heat. Somehow I was able to get five layers laid on in the past two days. The high heat we have does a nice job of curing the resin in about two hours, so I set the hood in the sun between each layer. Sadly, it doesn't really look like much in the photos.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56315&d=1468823879

When 2BKing provided me the shopping list for this project, he includes a gallon of Vinyl Ester Resin, a full box of disposable paint brushes, a full box of tongue depressors for stirring, a full box of latex gloves, and 50 (!) Mix and measure cups to make up batches of resin. I sort of thought this was excessive, but I dutifully bought all the specified materials. As of tonight, I have made 13 batches of resin, used 13 cups, paint brushes, and depressors, something over 30 gloves, and laid on a half a gallon of resin . . . and I am not done yet! As always, 2BKing was right. I am actually pretty surprised how good I am getting at laying the glass. Not that I want to make a career of it, mind you, but I am now pretty much able to get the resin to harden whenever I want it to.

Because of all the waiting for the Resin to cure, I spent some time shaping the rib at the front of the body.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56317&d=1468823881

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56316&d=1468823880

I also took the body off the upside down rack, placed it on the floor, and shaped the top half of the rib. It will need a bit of HSRF to smooth a couple of the intersections, but it should be pretty straight forward to shape the ledge that will support the hood when it is closed. I am preparing and shaping the rib so I can lay on the fiberglass. I can't do this, however, until I re-assemble the body and hood into one unit. Otherwise, the body could end up with a different contour than the hood. tomorrow I will put the body back together using the "band-aids" to make sure everything lines up before I begin glassing the forward body rib.

If you are bored with this stage of the process, hang in there. This part is slow, but is critical to the way the hood and body will interact.

carlewms

07-18-2016, 02:21 PM

Very nice work. Where did you pick up the foam and what type is it?

Jazzman

07-18-2016, 03:01 PM

The foam board is Divinylcell H45 PVC Foam Board, 1" thick, from Aircraft Spruce, part #01-12800. It comes in several sizes, I bought the 32" x 48" sheet. it is quite solid, but light. It is easily shaped with 100 grit sandpaper. It soaks up a bunch of resin when you lay the first layer of glass over it. Hope this helps!

Jazzman

07-21-2016, 02:23 AM

A bit of trimming and sanding on the edge of the hood where the old hood meets the body, and I can now see that the laminations are working nicely. I will need more layers of glass, probably at least three-four more so that the hood is uniformly thick along the seam.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56413&d=1469037398

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56414&d=1469037398

I am trying to smoothly flow the rib at the front of the body (the one that will also support the hood at the top) into the sides of the body. The idea is to create a ledge all the way around the cut area that will support and align the body and hood, as well as give the entire package a nice finished look. In order to do that, I had to put the body back together. I started by reattaching the teeth to the inside of the hood.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56416&d=1469037400

It was then time to see if the ribs on the sides of the hood kept it all lined up with the body. With just a little bit of encouragement, it slipped back together very smoothly. I reattached most of the "bandaid" aluminum straps. It was all working fine . . . all except for one area. When I cut the body apart, my saw blade drifted a bit, leaving too much material on the body side and not enough on the hood side. I have already added some HSRF filler to the hood side of the mistake area, and shaped it back to its correct form. However, I had forgotten to sand back the body side so the two would not conflict. So off came all the bandaids, and I slipped the two halves apart just enough to allow me to sand back the edge of the body in that area. A few minutes with the die grinder and the edges look complimentary. Back goes the hood, back on go the bandaids, and this time the body and hood align very smoothly.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56418&d=1469037401

The next evening I got to looking at the previous days work and realized an important point. In order to keep everything aligned while the fiberglass is curing, I need to leave all the bandaids on. They are on the outside of the body, so no conflict there. However, they are held in place by bolts coming through from the inside. Because it was the easiest when I was reattaching the body, I had put all bolts through from the outside and the nuts on the inside. However, I realized that I will have to lay glass over the nuts. This would make it very difficult to get the bandaids off. I decided to reverse the bolts so they would come through from the inside, and have the nuts on the outside. When laying the glass I will have to be very careful to notch the glass around the bolt heads. Just in case I miss, and some of the resin glues in the bolts, I should be able to grind away the resin and pull the bolts out. At least that's the plan.

I have read on several threads that there is a significant air leak along the inside of the body that dumps hot engine air into the cockpit. Some have suggested filling this space with a pool noodle cut and stuffed between the body and the footbox walls. I may do that, but I have been considering another option. Since I am already installing a number of fiberglass ribs, I am thinking about installing another one along the inside of the body just aft of the separation cut. I was considering using the expanding insulation foam that you might use to seal cracks in your wall or foundation to create a custom formed rib between the body and the footbox sidewalls. I think the foam would work, but I am concerned that the fiberglass that I would lay over it would stiffen the sides of the body so significantly that the body would not be able to stretch to fit over the frame at installation. Because of this limitation, I am still thinking about this modification. Perhaps I am over-thinking it. I have been known to do that before!

I am pushing to get the body ready to temporarily reinstall on the frame this weekend. Both my sons are coming home for a visit, so I will have extra hands to install the body. After doing it several times, they are getting pretty good at it! Now that the body is all back together, I am going to have to make a trip to Home Depot. I need some supplies to form an effective and visually pleasing ledge around the sides of the body where it intersects the hood.

skullandbones

07-21-2016, 10:01 AM

Nice glass work. I've done my share and there is nothing fun or easy with regard to this process. I really like the "teeth" on your hood closure. You've added one more way to hurt yourself on a Cobra along with the hot side pipe "Cobra bit" (ha!).

Good luck,

WEK.

Jazzman

07-21-2016, 10:53 AM

I really like the "teeth" on your hood closure. You've added one more way to hurt yourself on a Cobra along with the hot side pipe "Cobra bit" (ha!).

HA!! I thought about that, was wondering if will hit my head on those things for the rest of my life! However, they look soo good and they function so smoothly that I just had to go with it. I guess in the context of a Cobra, they are not "teeth" . . . they are "FANGS"!

Jazzman

07-22-2016, 03:13 AM

Inspiration can come from the most obscure places. Its HOT here in Arizona this time of year! (I know, not exactly news there.) My garage AC unit is working hard to keep it modestly cool in there. I have been concerned about all the dust I have been kicking up recently getting into the AC unit. I have cleaned it out twice in the past few weeks, but I am sure that it is not designed for the extreme dust environment that I have it in. I have been thinking about adding a secondary air filter in front of the AC unit. I went to home Depot today to get a 12"x25" air filter. While there I found some 3/16" thick by 1.25" wide self stick "Camper Seal" strip which I hope will help to seal the air going into the AC Unit and force it through the external air filter.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56466&d=1469174509

I laid a strip around the edge of the AC unit cover, and then taped on the additional AC filter.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56468&d=1469174510

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56469&d=1469174511

I reinstalled the cover, and presto, a dual filtered air intake. It's not exactly pretty, but I think it will serve it's purpose. This is when inspiration struck . . .

Jazzman

07-22-2016, 03:25 AM

I have been trying to figure out a way to create a ledge around the leading edge of the body that would allow the hood to slide by it and help to direct the hood into its correct placement. I wanted this ledge to be set back from the level of the inside of the body, and I wanted it to have a smooth rolled over edge so that It would not catch on the hood. When I saw the "camper seal" I found the perfect material to create a smooth inset ledge around the body. Then I wanted a smooth rolled edge. That's when I noticed the bag of round "backer rod". This insulation material was the perfect size and shape to form the rolled edge.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56467&d=1469174510

I first laid one strip of the "camper seal" along the edge of the hood. It was self stick and quite flexible. It is easy to lay around the curves. I laid the strip from the carved center rib to the aluminum "teeth". (or should I say "Fangs"?) Then I began adding the "backer rod" by using blue masking tape to tape the rod along the front side of the camper seal strip to form the shape that will create the rolled edge.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56472&d=1469174513

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56473&d=1469174513

When it is all taped up, it came out like this:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56474&d=1469174514

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56475&d=1469174515

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56476&d=1469174516

I will lay multiple layers of fiberglass from the leading edge of the inside of the body, over the taped up "camper seal" and then over the taped up backer rod. After the multiple layers cure, I will cut and sand off the rolled edge to make it all look symmetrical. The tape, the camper seal, and the backer rod are all sacrificial. I just hope that the resin does not stick well to the top of the painters tape. We shall see.

wareaglescott

07-22-2016, 03:53 AM

Nice inspiration. I hope you dual AC filter keeps your unit healthy and cool. AC and surround sound in a garage! Pretty impressive.

Jazzman

07-25-2016, 12:23 AM

After five or six or seven (I lost count!!) layers of glass, the flange around the body is done. I had a minor problem with one of the layers, had a bit of unexpected separation between layers. I cut out the separated layer, sanded it down smooth, and laid another two or three layers on top of it. The rest came out fine. I rough trimmed the flange just to clean it up, and here's how it ended up.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56624&d=1469421516

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56626&d=1469421518

With the help of the usual suspects (my kids, their friends) we put the entire body/hood unit on to the frame. (I had to spend an hour and a half cleaning the first six layers of sanding dust. I really have got to remember to cover that thing!!)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56628&d=1469421519

It slid on alright, but I could tell that there were some issues that would have to be resolved. The PS just fit, but the alignment "Fangs" are pretty close to the footbox wall.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56635&d=1469421523

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56629&d=1469421519

Getting the hood separated from the body was pretty easy, but not in the way I expected. I had hoped that the resin would not stick to the somewhat waxy back of the blue painters tape and would separate with a little bit of encouragement. Note to self: resin sticks quite well to painters tape. Second note to self: it doesn't stick well at all to aluminum. Not that this information helps me much at all in this situation, but it occurred to me when the aluminum "band aids" popped right off. It turned out that the "camper seal" that I used to create the setback doesn't stick hardly all! I unbolted all the "band aids", unbolted the "Fangs", and with just a bit of pressure, the hood separated cleanly from the "camper seal".

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56637&d=1469421525

The camper seal pulled right off the blue painters tape (it's not sticky on that side, it's barely sticky on the sticky side!!). The blue tape, however, is stuck securely to the resin flange. I am going to have to do a lot of sanding to get all that tape off the flange. Oh well, live and learn!

Jazzman

07-25-2016, 12:43 AM

I also discovered that the body rib was a bit too thick to let the body slide down fully on to the frame. I had to take a sander and sand a notch into that new rib to allow the body to settle just a bit lower.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56633&d=1469421522

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56634&d=1469421522

The real problems begin on the Drivers side. That nice little popped out side panel that FFR was kind enough to design is causing some space issues. First, the angle aluminum for the Fangs is too wide to fit between the body side and the DS footbox outside panel.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56632&d=1469421521

The DS hood rib also hits the popped out side of the DS footbox panel.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56630&d=1469421520

Finally, the popped out area does not allow any space for the upper half of the "Fangs" to slide by as the hood closes. I decide that before I make any changes or adjustments, I would look at it, think about it, sleep on it. I have some ideas, but I want to be sure before I move forward.

I spent the rest of the day polishing and prepping pieces of the hood hinge system and the trusses to be sent off to the powdercoater. Its still slow because the air compressor is significantly underpowered for the task. It's getting done slowly, but it's coming out nice.

wareaglescott

07-25-2016, 04:13 AM

Good progress! Nice to see it back on the frame and now you know what kinks need worked out.

carlewms

07-25-2016, 06:17 PM

Jazzman

07-29-2016, 02:26 AM

So what is this?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56864&d=1469776181

That is the pile of parts that was the Flip Top Hinge system. I took it all apart, every last bolt and nut, to send all the parts off to the powder coater. Very efficient of me, right? Wrong!! 2BKing very wisely suggested that I should completely install the entire hood system, get it all adjusted and working properly, before I powder coat anything. He is, of course, right. There are likely to be a few minor adjustments to get everything to work properly. Sooooooo . . . back together it all goes.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56868&d=1469776183

The good news is it took me dramatically less time to reassemble than it did to assemble it the first time. By the time I disassemble and reassemble it a third time, I should be able to fly through it!

I then opened up the garage, let the 106 or so degree air wash over me, and began sanding on the flanges where the hood and body meet. First lesson of the day: Do not use blue painters tape and expect it to peel away from vinylester resin. The resin soaks into the tape, and the tape becomes part of the fiberglass. I spent quite a lot of time sanding all the tape off the body flange. It's not an easy place to sand. After a lot of work, the flange was clear. The edge where the original body meets the new flange glass had just a bit of a valley, so I carefully filled in the valley with HSRF. The green you see in the photos is HSRF. It has not yet been sanded down.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56863&d=1469776180

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56867&d=1469776183

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56865&d=1469776181

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56866&d=1469776182

WIS89

07-29-2016, 02:24 PM

Kevin-

I really admire your work, and have been enjoying following along! I may have said it before, but I really admire those who can take a saw to these cars, and make something awesome all their own.

Thank you for sharing your progress with us; awesome!

I look forward to seeing the rest of your progress!

Regards,

Steve

UnhipPopano

07-29-2016, 03:37 PM

There are both TV commercials and written explanation on how Painters Tape works. The edges soak up the paint. This is good for painting, but not for what you are trying to do.

Jazzman

08-04-2016, 02:11 AM

Many of you will relate to my lack of posts over the past week. I am at that age when I have just launched my kids, and it is time to begin taking care of my parents. This past weekend, both my parents ended up in two different emergency rooms over a three day period. Thankfully, both are out now, and on the mend, albeit slowly. Overlay a short out of town business trip, and you can understand why my posts have been non-existent. I have made a small amount of progress, however.

After turning the body right side up, I spent a lot of time over several nights sanding the upper flange smooth. This should have been a simple process, but it highlighted the serious limitations of my RO Palm sander. The tool is simply not up to the task. I have spent a couple of days deciding whether to buy an electric or pneumatic DA Sander. If I decide upon a pneumatic one, I have really got to bite the bullet and buy a really large and powerful compressor. No decision on this yet. Still researching. I have pretty much decided that while I can buy a large used compressor much more inexpensively, the chore of moving it and the lack of warranty may outweigh the cost savings. My wife says buy a new one. Who am I to argue!! I sanded the upper flange smooth on all sides and sculpting the rolled over edge. I ground down the original body through the red gelcoat to provide good adhesion for the glass and resin, and to provide a small valley so that it did not become too thick in that area. I began laying glass from the top down, laying glass in about 12" pieces. This is one of the most complex set of curves I have had to deal with, especially each end where I am building the transition from the upper body flange to the thinner side flange. This are had curves going every direction simultaneously. Here is how it looked after one coat:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57110&d=1470292386

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57104&d=1470292383

And here is how it looks after two layers of glass, and a spill of about 30% of the mix on the body:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57111&d=1470292387

While I had a bit of extra resin mixed up, I decided to lay another layer on the top of the hood at the rear of the joint. That area got a bit thin, so I need to build it up a bit. This is one layer, but there will likely be 4 or more done in this area.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57108&d=1470292385

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57109&d=1470292386

Jeff Kleiner is a genius! He told me to get a pool noodle and use it to sand the concave areas along hood. Here's my "sanding noodle": (theres still a lot more in the closet to use later if necessary!!)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57106&d=1470292384

After just a short amount of sanding, the value of this tool became crystal clear. It helped me sand the previously layers of glass in preparation for one last layer to tie it all together.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57107&d=1470292385

After a bit more sanding on the front edge of the hood seams, it also became clear that there were still some low areas that will need to be glassed in. I marked them on the body to both help you see them and help me eliminate them.

Jazzman

08-04-2016, 02:31 AM

I did a bit of metal working as well. I am going to have to modify the "fangs" and their mounting brackets. I began with the "easy" one, the passenger side. All that is required here is to notch about 1/4" out of the mounting brackets in the area that the PS footbox will be. If I had chosen to use 1" angle aluminum instead of 1.25" material, this process would not have been necessary. If you choose to follow in my footsteps, use 1" material.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57112&d=1470292388

I then returned to my old friends, the hood trusses. The one piece I did not install when they were originally manufactured was the piece that will hold the ball ends that will be attached to the pneumatic struts to hold the hood up when open. When 2BKing originally designed the trusses, he cut out large sections of the square channel to reduce weight. Being a rugged individualist (and not having access to a metal cutting band saw) I decided to retain the full 3/4" square channel all around. I like the look, but it did cause a couple of access issues. This turned out to be one of them.

I drilled the hole that the ball end bolt will go through from the inside to the outside of the truss:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57103&d=1470292382

I then drilled the largest hole that would fit inside the walls of the 3/4" square tube from the outside of the truss. I had to do this because the threaded bolt of the ball end piece is too short to go all the way through the 3/4" tube. 2BKing didn't need to do this because he had bisected the 3/4" square tube to allow access from the back side.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57102&d=1470292382

I carefully checked to be sure all the parts would fit through their respective holes. I did not install them, because once they go on, I will never have decent access to get them back off. The nut will be buried inside the 3/4" tube. This part will have to go off to powder coating before that piece is installed.

RHITME03

08-04-2016, 08:31 AM

Jazzman - Great work. Glad to hear your family is on the mend. I truly look forward to following your build, both for content of information and the unique aspects incorporated into your roadster. Keep it up!

Jeff Kleiner

08-04-2016, 09:15 AM

Kevin,
Got your PMs and wrote up a reply but for some reason the a new firewall won't let me send it through my office computer??? I'll send it from home this evening.

Looking great!

Jeff

Jazzman

08-07-2016, 02:41 AM

Didn't get much done yesterday, but it was an exciting day . . . if you live in a desert! We got rain!! Lots of it!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57226&d=1470553874

Anytime we get rain, it really is a great day, but this one was really strange. Overnight it was in the mid 90's, in the middle of the storm at about 10am it got down to 74 degrees. After about three hours of rain, and the power being out for most of that time, the sun came out, the humidity came on, and by the late afternoon is was a steamy 97 degrees. Now that's a storm!

Since the power was out, I couldn't work, so I went to the shop to see if I could do anything. I spent part of that time smoothing out the fiberglass seam on the hood. After laying up quite a number of layers, I wanted to lay one final layer of glass all the way across all the layers to tie them all together and smooth out the whole area. Before this final layer could be laid, I had to smooth out all the previous layers. Good old fashioned block sanding. Slow, boring, hard work, but somehow satisfying in the end.

Today I continued the same project. Spent more time sanding everything as smooth and feathered as I could. I still found I had a couple of low areas that just were not going get any better with just glass. I very carefully smoothed over a layer of HSRF. Heeding Jeff Kleiners wise counsel, I laid it as smoothly as I was able, and with one small exception, did not leave any excess material to be sanded off.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57228&d=1470553875

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57227&d=1470553875

The HSRF takes about 20 minutes to get generally hard, but I like to wait 30-45 minutes for it to really get hard before I start shaping it. I got dinner, took a swim, talk to my bride, and watched the Olympics. I went back to find the HSRF nicely set up and ready to go. Then I sanded. And I sanded. And I sanded some more. I changed sand paper, then continued the same process. Not much to look at, but It really is coming together nicely.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57230&d=1470553876

I re-sanded everything, and then laid one last layer of fiberglass over the entire area, overlapping all other layers by about 1.5". This layer was 7" wide, the widest layer I have laid. I just barely mixed enough Vinylester resin to lay the entire layer, but I did just make it. I wish you could really see how nice this layer came out. It smoothly transitions all the various layers together and creates one nice smooth curve. The edges will have to feathered in, of course, but the rest of the area will only need limited smoothing, much less than was going to be required before laying this layer.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57232&d=1470553878

GoDadGo

08-07-2016, 07:11 AM

Hey Jazzman,

You are doing nice glass work and I speak from experience on that subject.
In a past life I built fiberglass boats and still have a fishing skiff mold that I just couldn't part with.
Anyway, enjoy the itch and wiping down with vinegar does help with that fun aspect of doing this type of work.

Steve

Jazzman

08-07-2016, 12:14 PM

You can always trust Dad . . . in this case GoDadGo! Thanks for the compliment, but thanks most of all for the suggestion with the vinegar. The itch hasn't been too bad thus far, but last night I guess I really got a lot of dust on me. I itched all night! I just tried your vinegar remedy, and I am sooooo much better now! Of course now I smell like a salad . . .

WIS89

08-08-2016, 08:40 AM

I wish I had known about that vinegar solution myself! It is now filed away for future use.

Thanks Steve, and Kevin your work is awesome as always. Sounds like that storm could have been quite dangerous!

Regards,

Steve

2FAST4U

08-08-2016, 08:35 PM

This is truly an incredible build. Well done!!

Jazzman

08-09-2016, 03:03 AM

Thanks 2FAST, that is truly high praise coming from you. I have enjoyed, learned from, and stolen ideas from your work. I continue to stand on the shoulders of giants!

Jazzman

08-10-2016, 03:10 AM

I spent almost a full day this past weekend cleaning the mess created by the fiberglass sanding process. I decided that I must take the time to move all those items that I wanted to keep clean into a "clean area". I decided to take the third bay of my garage and move everything I could into that area. Then I used 6mil plastic sheeting, about a dozen 5 gallon paint stiring sticks (that I got free from Home Depot!!) and the help of my bride to put up a temporary wall.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57304&d=1470815089

It really works well, keeps dust off of most of the tools, and best of all, redirects the cold air from my air conditioner into the double car bay where my car now sits. It took time away from the build, but I think it was well worth the time.

While I was working with plastic sheeting, I decided to cover the back half of the car with 3mil plastic drop cloth. I am putting the body on, and I know I will be kicking up a lot of sanding dust. At least this portion of the car will be kept clean. This alone will save a lot of clean up time.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57306&d=1470815090

Again with the help of my bride, we reinstalled the body onto the frame. She is getting really good at it now. With just a small amount of drama, I got the body back into place, fixed the rear in place with two bolts, then screwed the sides into the reference holes that I am using. At the moment I am only using two screws on each side to hold the body in place. I keeps it straight, but doesn't slow down the removal process.

I turned to the hood section. The reason for all this re-installation of parts is to fit the hood and body together, adjusting the necessary parts to be sure that the tilt system works and everything fits together well. One thing that I had not addressed up to this point was the separation of the layers of the hood where the scoop hole has been cut out.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57305&d=1470815090

I pulled out the 3m panel bonding cement and the special mixing and delivery tool.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57307&d=1470815091

After squeezing an ample amount of the panel bonding cement between the separated layers, I held the layers together with paper clamps from my office until the cement hardened.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57308&d=1470815092

It worked great. The hood is much more stiff than it was before bonding these layers together. The one minor problem was that some of the cement squeezed out of the seam and stuck a few of the paper clamps to the hood. It took some force, and a screwdriver, to separate the last of the paper clamps. A bit of sanding around the edges, and that little project will be done.

Jazzman

08-10-2016, 03:27 AM

It was time to cut out the side vents on the hood. FFR drew them on, but I wanted to double and triple check their location and size. I began measuring their location using a large square. I was pleased to find out that the markings from FFR actually were quite accurate, and matched on both sides.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57311&d=1470815093

I found that the front of the opening is 9" from the top of the curve of the body, and the rear was 9 3/8". When they are all marked and the holes for the corners were drilled, I cut out the openings.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57313&d=1470815095

In hindsight, I wish that I had cut these openings before I drew and cut the curve of the body/hood separation. As it turned out, all the measuring and triple checking paid off. The distance from the bottom of the side vent the separation from the body is a consistent 4 5/8". It is always dangerous to get too cocky, but after all the measuring and dealing with curves, it is nice to know that the result came in almost exactly where it should be.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57312&d=1470815094

Note for those considering attempting the Tilt Front project: It would have been easier to lay in a nice straight dependable line based upon the line of the bottom of the side vent. This line 4 5/8" below the bottom of the vent could be drawn in at the beginning of the design process. This would provide another fixed point, perhaps making the design process a bit easier.

I worked on reinstalling the trusses into the hood. I still need to re-make four of the mounting pieces that join truss to the hood. The very front of the hood is somewhat different than the plans, and I will have to custom make some mounting pieces. Its not too hard, just time consuming. That is a project for tomorrow.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57315&d=1470815096

The perforated mounting points that had been attached to the body worked very well. Everything went back together rather smoothly until . . . one of the bolts from the perforated plate was twisted out of the perforated plate. Arrgh! Now when I remove the trusses again for powdercoating, I will have to dig out and remove the perforated plate and install a new one. Oh well, it's fixable.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57314&d=1470815095

wareaglescott

08-10-2016, 04:03 AM

Good idea on the office clamps. Nice when you can use something from home for a non intended purpose instead of buying something new! Build is looking great!

WIS89

08-10-2016, 09:08 PM

I totally would have used the opportunity to buy some new tools! HA

It still looks great, and I still admire your work.

Regards,

Steve

Jazzman

08-13-2016, 01:54 AM

Tonight my bride and I attached the hood for the first time. Here is a short video of the first opening:

https://youtu.be/Vp0GoXKAboE

So there you have it. It actually does tilt. That's the good news. The bad news is there is a LOT Of adjustments that I have to figure out how do.

Here is a still of the Flipped Top in case you want to look at it more closely.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57481&d=1471070104

To get to this point, I had to do some adjusting of my original design. the angle aluminum that holds the Fangs had to be notched on the drivers side. Both upper and lower pieces got notched significantly. The third fang had to be removed on the DS. There simply was no way to make it slide by the pushed out area of the DS footbox outside panel. I also removed the third fang on the PS. My OCD will not allow them to not be symmetrical. It is actually ok, though. I actually think it looks better with two fangs on each side rather than three. I think there is a significant possibility that I will ultimately re-make these parts to incorporate my newest modifications and add some other things that I think would help retain rigidity.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57475&d=1471070100

Now the real challenges begin: adjusting everything to make it all both work right and fit right. That may prove to be a very big challenge. I have become increasingly concerned that the hood may have changed shape after it was separated from the body. I put the hood in the hot Arizona sun to bake the fiberglass layers. It worked very well. However I fear that this also allowed the hood to relax and change shape when it was not affixed to the body to help it retain its shape. Now I have some significant areas that will need work and adjustment.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57480&d=1471070104

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57477&d=1471070102

I know that part of the problem is that the nose of the hood is currently sitting at least 1/2"-1" lower than it should be. When I originally did all the truss work, I had the front of the hood supported on the upper mounting bolts that held the body on the frame when it was delivered. with the nose low, the seams are farther apart. The photos clearly show the increased width of the seams that are quite evident along the top and sides. I have some ideas for adjusting this problem, but I am going to sleep on it.

Tomorrow morning I will put the entire car in the hot sun to relax the hood again to see if it will relax back into the shape it is supposed to be. More to follow tomorrow.

wareaglescott

08-13-2016, 08:34 AM

Good work Kevin. I enjoyed seeing it in action in the video.
I know it is early in the process but I can only assume this will be a push button electrically activated and hydraulically actuated system. Surely you won't have to actually use your hands to open the hood!! Haha ��

Jazzman

08-14-2016, 03:24 AM

A slow but productive day of adjustment. I had to figure out why the hood and body did not fit together the way they did when they were off the frame. I had excessively large seams and the sides bowed outward. I released the tension on the trusses and the hinges by loosening all the nuts that hold the hood to the trusses and the trusses to the hinges. because of the oblong nature of a number of the holes, there was a nice stress release as all the parts settled into a more comfortable position. I tightened everything up, but it made almost no change. My initial observation was that the nose of the hood was too low, and perhaps it is just a bit. This is the first time that the full weight of the hood is resting on the hinges. Previously the nose of the hood had been supported by the front bolts that FFR used to transport the entire kit. I realized that there was one other option: the body could also be too high. I had previously notched the rib at the front of the body where it passes over the upper 3/4" frame rails. Here is what it looked like:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57503&d=1471161391

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57504&d=1471161392

After looking at all other alternatives, and reviewing my early photos, I decided that the fact that the body was being held up by the excessively thick rib might be causing my fitment problems. I decided to substantially increase the size of the notched to provide ample room for the body to move lower.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57508&d=1471161394

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57509&d=1471161395

The notched area is a full 3/8" deep. It allowed the body to slip down to a more normal position. Immediately the hood mated with the body much more closely. Seams are much closer to correct and the sides are much closer to mating up. I then turned my attention to the other rib that might be conflicting with the frame, the side rib on the DS of the hood. I determined that this rib was also keeping the hood from lining up correctly with the body. I notched it in similar fashion.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57511&d=1471161396

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57513&d=1471161398

Before I cut the body apart, I drew a centerline as a point of reference. I am so glad that I did. It has helped to show me how close a particular change gets me to the way it was BC, Before Cut. With the work today, I am very close to having it aligned again.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57510&d=1471161396

There is still more work to be done to make the hood move consistently, but I am pleased with the progress. 2BKing has designed in one additional feature to stiffen and provide adjustability to control where the hood goes as it closes. I am waiting on one small part for that setup, and hope to install it tomorrow. I am also trying to decide if I should do one more Fang at the very center of the hood edge that intersects the body. I will do this if it seems necessary to have a fixed point that consistently centers the hood and the top of the body. I am going to wait to decide if this is necessary until after I install the latches on the sides of the hood. I want to see how much effect the latches will have to hold everything exactly where it is supposed to be. FFR is currently out of stock on the latches, so I will have to wait to be able to make this determination.

WIS89

08-14-2016, 10:59 AM

Kevin-

Nicely done! That centerline was a really good idea, and trying to recreate it after the fact may have proved to be impossible.

Very impressed with your progress and skills!

Regards,

Steve

Jazzman

08-15-2016, 02:36 AM

In order to keep the hood from moving from side to side, 2BKing engineered a set of watts links and tie rods that significantly stiffens the hinge system. I began by laying out the parts I would need before I climbed under the car to install them.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57531&d=1471244746

I will tell you right off the bat that there is something missing from this photo, a part I did not install. But I promised that I would be completely honest with you, even in my mistakes. So here we go through the process. Take a look at the apex of each of the "L" shaped pieces in the photo above. That hole is the pivot point. Inside that hole is a brass ferrule that has been filed down to be just slightly thicker than the aluminum "L" piece. Now in the center of that ferrule is supposed to be a piece of stainless steel rod that is actually what the "L" pivots on. That little detail, however, eluded me until I had a conversation with King after I had already done the next few steps. Since I didn't remember that there was supposed to be the stainless steel pivot rod in the middle, I just assumed that I had ordered the wrong size bolts to fit in the center of the ferrules. So I searched my ridiculously large collection of bolts and nuts and found two that looked like they would work just fine. They were not threaded in the area that the "L" should pivot, and were long enough to allow a lock washer and nut on the other side. I collected all this hardware and climbed under the car.

I immediately noticed that the holes in the tilt framework were too small for the new bolts that I had just found. Did I go read Kings instructions? Did I check my parts list to see if I ordered the wrong part? Did I check the schematics that King sent to see if I had drilled the wrong size hole? No, No, and No. I just drilled out the hole to accommodate the larger, and wrong, bolt.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57533&d=1471244747

I bolted in both of the mated pair of "L" pieces:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57534&d=1471244747

I got the rods together and the other end fittings that King had designed.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57532&d=1471244746

I installed the outside ends of the watts link system as King had specified.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57535&d=1471244748

However, I discovered that when I opened the hood, the rod with the watts link on each end hit the lower 3/4" frame tube. To provide just enough space for it all to clear safely, I added a 1/2" spacer to lower the watts link at the outside end.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57549&d=1471244756

Now that the watts link system is fully hooked up, the hood has almost no lateral movement at all. The watts link system really works well. However, even though there is not supposed to be much movement in the mated pair of "L" brackets, they are supposed to be able to pivot. With the wrong bolt at the pivot point, and no stainless steel rod on which the "L" piece can pivot, they just don't pivot enough. Since I overdrilled the attachement holes for the "L" pieces, I am now going to have to re-make the 3/4" square channel piece that hold's the "L" pieces. At least I will have the opportunity to get the mated pair of "L" pieces fully connected by drilling the holes just a small amount closer together. That is a project for another day.

King warned me that I might have to trim the lowest edge of the hood below the large oval opening in the nose so that it would not hit the watts links and mated "L" pair. in my particular case, there was no need to trim the edge of the hood. It never hit anything unless you chose to over extend it's opening capabilities. The way the hinges rotate the hood as it opens makes it avoid these pieces. This is something to watch out for, however, if you choose to do this mod.

Now on to the support struts.

Jazzman

08-15-2016, 03:10 AM

In King's wisdom, he re-purposed several of the original parts from the FFR kit. The use of the gas struts to assist and control the opening of the hood is one of these parts. I first did the easy part, installing the ball end fitting in the hole on the hinge that was originally designed by FFR to do just this. These ball end bolts are installed toward the outside of the car.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57542&d=1471244752

Installing the other end is a bit more tricky. The nut for the other ball end fitting ends up inside the 3/4" channel in the struts. I had to get creative to get the nut installed.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57544&d=1471244753

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57545&d=1471244754

The ball ends face the center of the car. I tightened them by putting a large flat blade screwdriver into the hole and jamming the nut against the inside wall of the 3/4" truss.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57540&d=1471244751

Installing the gas struts was a simple snap on procedure. The hood is now controlled and limited by the gas struts.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57543&d=1471244753

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57546&d=1471244755

Jazzman

08-15-2016, 03:30 AM

In just two days and one evening, I have been able to fully mount and adjust the tilt mechanism. King told me he looked back and I have been working on the tilt system for about four months. (I haven't looked!!) He had anticipated that it would add about six months to the build. Now that I am on the tail end of that phase, I believe that a more experienced fabricator, or someone that had the time and motivation to work on it in a more intense fashion, this phase could be done in much less time. I am also even more convinced that even the novice fabricator, if well motivated and supplied with simple but adequate tools, can do this project. I am not an expert fabricator by any measure. But I am very pleased with how it all came together. It is a testament to the quality of the engineering that 2BKing has done. Just in case I haven't publically said it often enough, THANK YOU, KING, for all your support and assistance! I will now go back through all my notes and write up one complete set of instructions for this modification.

If you are considering trying this modification, contact 2BKing via private message. It has been our goal from the beginning of my Tilt Front construction process to provide King a complete set of instructions, photos, and schematics that he can provide to other interested builders.

I add the following photos as one more milestone along this journey to create my own vision of the Roadster. I'm glad I am not done, but it is quite satisfying to arrive at this point.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57547&d=1471244755

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57548&d=1471244756

David Hodgkins

08-15-2016, 05:56 PM

Amazing.

Jazzman

08-15-2016, 06:57 PM

Amazing.

Thank you for the high compliment, but No, my friend, the magic that you have wrought in "Trojan" and your own MKIII is truly "Amazing". I really hope that I will get to see your MKIII before you sell it. I am however, hoping that it will sell quickly and at a very substantial profit for you. The buyer of your car will truly get a car that has been loved and taken care of extremely well. How very rare to have a complete documented history of all the items that were checked and re-checked before purchase, and photos of all the special things that you have done. To even be recognized by a master such as yourself is extremely high praise. Thank you for allowing me and all of us to learn from and be inspired by your craftsmanship and attention to detail.

Gromit

08-15-2016, 10:01 PM

Absolutely an amazing build I've been lurking in awe. I hope when I get the chance to build one of these the I have the patience to take a four month detour to make it exactly the car I want. You are an inspiration to future builders
Chris aka Gromit

Jazzman

08-16-2016, 12:19 AM

Thank you, Chris, for your kind words. I was just like you for several years. I truly hope you get the opportunity to build the car of YOUR dreams. It is an amazing journey of challenges, learning, and self discovery. Stick around, I'm not done yet!! I still have a lot more learning opportunities!

WIS89

08-16-2016, 03:51 PM

Kevin-

I think you and King make a great team! He made a great kit, and you did an amazing job making it come to life! I echo the others here that compliment you on your fine work.

I know I have said it before, but I really admire your work! It really looks awesome, and I can't wait to see what comes next.

Thanks for letting us share the ride!

Regards,

Steve

dallas_

08-16-2016, 03:59 PM

That's fantastic. Really well done. You will love the access that the tilt front gives you. :)

Jazzman

08-25-2016, 09:51 PM

A lot of work and a lengthy business trip have conspired to keep me from doing what I want to do. At least while I was gone a box from FFR arrived with new toys! The good news is that the hood latches from a 65 Coupe arrived.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57838&d=1472177429

The bad news is that they are a lot deeper than I expected. I expected space to be tight on the drivers side, but it looks like there will be space issues on the PS too, perhaps more so than on the DS. To make it even more confusing, the small "ears" on the left an right sit proud of the front of the chrome latch handle which should be flush with the outside of the body. I am not sure exactly what these latches are attached to on the Coupe, but clearly it must not be just the inside of the body. At the moment I am thinking that I will either have to hammer those "ears" flat, or I will have to cut them off and find another way to attach the latches. I think I have that worked out, but I still am not sure there is enough space between the footbox wall and the inside of the hood.

The good news is that FFR was kind enough to include the latch U bolts. I am not sure if they are Stainless steel or regular steel that has been brushed, but I appreciated the extra items.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57839&d=1472177430

The bad news is that they are not threaded far enough up the shafts to be able to get them close enough to the footbox panels to allow everything to fit. The good news is that I have a die the right size to thread them.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57840&d=1472177431

The bad news is that the threading handle I have is a two handled variety, and won't work to go around a U bolt.

Ok. Any suggestions of How I thread a potentially stainless steel U bolt without a handle?

This one is going to take a lot of thinking. The two different heights of the outside panels of the foot boxes requires that each side will have to have it's own unique solution. Hmmm . . .

carlewms

08-26-2016, 04:21 AM

Interesting dilemma ... Here is one approach (not very sophisticated) to consider:

1. Grind two flats on to the die 180 deg apart sufficient to allow a large wrench or vice grips to grip the die;
2. Mount the U bolt in a vice so it will not move;
3. Use lots of oil; and,
4. Use a large wrench or vice grips to slowly turn the die.

Another possibility:

I have not used these but YouTube has video of a ratcheting tools to drive the die:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwANm7iidwU

Carl

carlewms

08-26-2016, 04:21 AM

Here is another alternative ratcheting tool ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPDsJMSZvMo

You still might not have room for the tool head in this case

Jeff Kleiner

08-26-2016, 05:23 AM

Option B; find a pair of different length square U bolts. Grainger, McMaster-Carr, Fastenall, etc. have lots of choices. Here's a quickie I just pulled up; as you'll see you can search based on thread diameter & pitch, length, width and thread width.

https://www.grainger.com/product/CHICAGO-HARDWARE-Low-Carbon-Steel-U-Bolt-with-WP61298/_/N-8k6Z1z0o3nsZ1z0f8wwZ1z0vxd0?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/20W576_AS01?$smthumb$

You might turn up something that will be a better fit without having to be reworked.

Good luck!

Jeff

dallas_

08-26-2016, 11:54 AM

Or weld a couple of bolts to a piece of flat steel.

Jazzman

08-28-2016, 12:04 AM

I am trying to get everything done under the hood so that I can remove the hood in preparation for installation of the engine. I will also take that opportunity to get all the various parts that I have created powder coated. I ordered my Coyote engine yesterday, should be here in 10-14 days. I decided to buy it from a local shop. I hand checked many sources, and they all have the same prices, give or take $5. I decided to buy locally so that I would have a relationship with the shop in the event that I needed assistance with the wiring. This shop also has a dyno, and I wanted to be sure I had a source to get that done after the car is running.

One of the many things I love about the Flip Top is that big open expanse under the hood. I like the way that I can access everything under the hood. I did not, however, like the way the FFR "elephant ears" stick out into the sight lines under hood. Because the hood goes up, the "elephant ears" are normally attached to the inside of the hood. I decided to do a twist on the traditional FFR "elephant ears" by functionally splitting them in two, attaching the outside ear to the inside of the body, and attaching the inside piece to the frame in the traditional way.

I started out by pulling out the DS "elephant ear" and made two templates, one of the inside and one of the outside of the ear. Note to self and others. Remember when I suggested getting all your powder coating done at once to save money? If you are going to do a lot of custom modifications, you might want to wait to get that done until you are done fabricating parts. Otherwise you will end up with powder coated parts that you didn't need to coat. Oh well!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57933&d=1472357720

I followed the bend line in the ear and made each template 1" wider than the point of the bend.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57931&d=1472357718

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57932&d=1472357719

You'll notice the two notches in the left side of the template. The lower one on the photo is to allow the front wiring harness to pass through, and the larger one above it is a space to allow the end of the hood support trusses to pass through.

I cut out new ear sections from .040 Aluminum sheet material. (Yes, my hands are very tired!!) I then carefully bent the 1" edge of each piece by placing a 1/8" sheet of Aluminum on my bench, putting the sheet to be bent on top of that, a 1x2" piece of wood to hold the various layers, and finally used c-clamps to attach the entire set to the bench. I then carefully bent the remaining 1" edge to match the angle of the bend running down the center of the FFR ears. The sheet of aluminum on the bottom provides a very sharp edge to bend these long lines over. the bends really came out rather nice. Perhaps not quite the quality of a profession bender, but much cheaper. The bend along the long direction of the FFR pieces provides substantial stiffening to the new pieces.

Next I needed to make the pieces that will hold the exterior portion of the "half ear" tightly against the inside of the hood. This technique will both create better sight lines, and it will also stiffen up the sides of the hood. I will ultimately use 1" x 1/16" L aluminum, but I didn't want to waste it during my learning curve. I bought one stick of drywall edge corner bead to act as a surrogate. After cutting to length, I started cutting notches to allow the template to bend naturally and smoothly.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57918&d=1472357155

After some trial and error, I found that the first 7 sections could be 2" wide and have 10 degree angles cut at each section end. This creates a 20 degree combined angle.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57928&d=1472357162

Then next five sections should be 2" wide, but should have 2.5 degree cuts on each end, creating a 5 degree combined angle. The next five sections should be 1.5" wide and get a 5 degree angled cut at each end, a 10 degree combined angle.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57929&d=1472357163

The last section is just under 1.75". I will have to custom cut that one to fit after I install the bottom piece.

I cut each notch only through one side of the 90 L channel, being careful to not cut into the other side. I did it with a sabre saw, because that is what I have. It worked just fine. left the edges a bit rough, but not too bad.

It was then ready to begin bending into the shape of the exterior "half ear". I had to adjust a couple of the notches to make it bend just right. I used my template as a guide to get the bends close to the size and shape that would fit on the car.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57923&d=1472357159

I drilled a hole in the center of each section that will ultimately have a rivet through it, and holes every 3" on the side that will be attached to the inside of the hood. I will ultimately attach this piece with the high strength multi surface glue that I used to bond the perforated discs to the inside of the hood to hold the trusses.

Jazzman

08-28-2016, 12:22 AM

Next I had to attach the L channel to the inside of the hood in the right place to hold the outboard half-ear. I began by installing the inboard half ear by attaching it temporarily to the stock FFR location.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57914&d=1472357152

I then closed the hood. I found I had to trim the very bottom of the inboard half-ear to match the bottom of the body. That done, I attached the outboard half-ear to the inboard one, lining up and overlapping the 1" extensions on each piece. I held them in place with a c-clamp while I drew a line along the inside of the body to know where the outboard half ear should be attached.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57921&d=1472357157

Because of the curves and the distance from any other places that clamps might be attached, I decided the only way to hold the L channel in place to fit it and to ultimately bond it to the hood is to drill more holes in the hood. Oh well, I'm getting pretty good at filling holes with HSRF filler. Whats a few more holes!! I started by attaching the L channel at the top inside of the hood. I then worked my way around until I had attached it one 3" section at a time.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57924&d=1472357159

After attaching the L channel all the way down to the bottom, I temporarily installed the outboard half ear to see if I was all going to fit and work. When the hood is closed, it fits perfectly and looks really good. I am thinking of adding a support on the back side of the inboard ear to stabilize it.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57925&d=1472357160

The hood even closes smoothly even with the ears installed. However, the ears do scrape against each other and sound a bit rough. I had already thought of that, and after they are powder coated, the edges will be covered with rubber edge molding. They will still have to rub together to close, but they won't sound so bad.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57926&d=1472357161

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57927&d=1472357161

carlewms

08-28-2016, 05:02 AM

Jazzman,

Great modification and execution ...

Carl

Jazzman

09-03-2016, 11:19 PM

I have been working steadily, but so much of this is now uncharted territory that it takes quite a bit of thinking time in addition to the work time. The unavoidable next task had to be figuring out how to use the hood latches that I had ordered from FFR. These are the same side latches that FFR uses on their Type 65 coupe. I thought and figured for several days about how to best get these things to work. The biggest problem is there is just too little space between the inside of the hood and the outside wall of the footboxes. I think I have it pretty much figured out, but it is still a work in progress. First I had to address the actual mounting of the latch itself.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57838&d=1472177429

The wings sticking out on the sides of the latch frame sit forward of the bottom hole on the latch frame which is behind the "M" on the front of the latch itself. I am not sure what exactly these things are attached to on the 65 Coupe, but on the inside of the hood on the Roadster, it is just a flat surface. All the mounting tabs need to be in the same plane. I started by literally hammering the wings back flat. By doing this, all the holes are now in the same plane. The wing that is to be closest to the front of the car on each side needed to be shortened. I cut off the wing eliminating the pre=drilled hole, and then realized I cut off the wrong side. So I cut off the other side to match. No problem, there is more than enough room to drill new holes of the correct size in the remaining wing area. Now the latch seemed to be ready to install.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58180&d=1472962650

It became clear that I simply was not going to know how tight it would be inside there until I actually decided upon a location and cut the hole for the latch. I laid it out on the side of the hood. When I was comfortable with the look, I cut the hole undersized, then used files and sandpaper to increase the hole to it's final size.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58169&d=1472960563

The latch handle finally fit nicely after a significant amount of sanding. I put it in to test the fit, then realized I had cut the hole too long! Luckily, I had to put a perforated disc behind that area anyway to attach the latch to, so I just held the disk in place with tape, and laid HSRF to fill in the hole.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58171&d=1472960565

HSRF is good stuff. Yes it is like sanding granite, but the end result is sweet.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58181&d=1472962651

After getting the hole cut, I put tape on the side of the footbox in the area where the latch might attach. I drew lines through the latch hole to see where the latch needed to be on the side of the footbox. Sadly, there was just not enough space in there for the full latch. Without a major modification of the outside of the wall of each footbox, there was just no way to get the latch between the hood and the footbox panel. The solution was to remove the white plastic roller from the latch mechanism.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58174&d=1472960584

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58175&d=1472960588

With that white roller gone, the only remaining interference is the actual J hook that actually latches the hood. I think I have a work around for that, but it is still in the works. More on that later.

Jazzman

09-04-2016, 12:24 AM

In order to finish all the stuff attached to the hood, I decided to go back and remake a couple of pieces. The lower aluminum L channel that forms the receiver for the "fangs" was originally 10" long. It is adequate at that length, but I decided that I wanted the L channel to extend farther back along the inside of the body to act as a stiffening rib for the area where the fangs meet the body. I remade both of the lower receiving pieces, eliminating the rear most holes that I ended up not needing, and extending the overall length to 16". I guess practice does make improvement, because the new receivers fit even better than the original ones.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58176&d=1472960594

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58177&d=1472960607

I am glad I went to the effort to remake these pieces. They new ones look better and work better than the originals.

I pulled out the 3M Composite and Metal Bonding cement to attach the various pieces to the underside of the hood. I removed the upper "Fang" mounting from each side of the hood and the aluminum L channel that has been segmented and bent to hold the outside half of the front splash guards securely to the inside of the hood. Once again I noticed how nicely this method stiffened up the outside of the hood. With these outside plash guards in place, the sides of the hood are very solid. With them removed, the sides of the hood have noticeable movement. I had to cut and polish one side off of four perforated disks to make them ready to hold the sides of the hood latches. To make sure the Bonding Cement would hold securely, I ran each surface of aluminum that would be bonded with 80 grit sandpaper to rough up the surface. I also wiped down all surfaces with acetone to make sure it was all clean. I laid out all the attaching bolts, nuts and washers to make sure I would not have to hunt for them. I knew the splash guard attachment channel would take quite a bit of time to fit and bolt into place. (I was right!!) I didn't want anything to slow me down. Once all was laid out, I hooked up the mixing nozzle to the Bonding cement dispenser and began attaching pieces. I first attached the perforated disks, then moved to the splash guard mounts. Finally, I bonded the upper Fang holder to the hood. I used acetone on a rag to wipe off the excess bonding cement from all the pieces. It looks like everything was bonded just as expected.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58178&d=1472960611

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58179&d=1472960612

I intentionally put bonding cement around each of the areas where a bolt goes through the hood to hold the piece in place while the cement hardens. After it hardens thoroughly, I will take off the nuts and washers from the outside, then use the di-grinder to grind off all the bolts to just below the level of the hood surface. I will lay HSRF filler over each bolt end to conceal it. By leaving these bolts cemented inside the fiberglass hood surface, I hope that this will increase the strength of the bond between the aluminum piece and the fiberglass hood.

GoDadGo

09-04-2016, 05:43 PM

You Are Truly A Braver Man Than Me When It Comes To Over The Top Mods!
You understand the meaning of Go Big Or Go Home!
You need to change your name to Go Big Jazzman!
Cool Stuff!

Jazzman

09-04-2016, 11:31 PM

You need to change your name to Go Big Jazzman! Cool Stuff!

Considering my size, the "Go Big" is implied!! :) Thanks for the kind words of support. You are rebel just like me. Your "Darkside Roadster" is also inspiring, albeit to a different group. I am no mans expert on bowtie engines, but I hear and read extremely good things. We both will end up being loved by some, hated by others, for not being "traditional". I say honor the past by learning from it, growing beyond it, moving to a higher level because of it. Perhaps one day the "Darkside" will ride side by side with the "Flip Top". Then we will truly have achieved an enlightened society!! Keep up the good work Dad!

Jazzman

09-05-2016, 03:26 AM

Made another mess today, but the good kind. The extreme heat has finally broken, and today was the first day cool enough to leave all the doors open. It was in the high 90's today, still plenty warm, but with a nice breeze, it was a beautiful day. I was in the pool four times! Because I could leave the doors open, I decided it was time to attack those annoying parting seams on the body. I put away everything that was not absolutely necessary, and pulled out the sander. I took down the lines with 80 grit on the palm sander just to get down to a workable level. Then I pulled out the sanding block to make sure they were shaped correctly. After sanding to a shaped I knew was close, but I also knew was not quite finished, I gave the area a very light "skim coat" of black primer.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58207&d=1473062452

After block sanding away the primer, it left clear marks of the areas that are still low. (Anything still black is low because the sandpaper hasn't hit it.)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58209&d=1473062453

It has been nearly 30 years since I did any body work, but it was nice to see how quickly it came back to me. Never sand in straight lines, always on the 45 degree angles. Keep moving. Long strokes. It was not quite so nice to remember clearly how hard this work is! Jeff and Jeff, you guys are ironmen in my book! It is satisfying work, though.

after sanding a goodly portion of the areas that had been skim coated, I broke for lunch. After lunch I came back and applied very thin layers of HSRF filler. I must have mixed in not quite enough hardener, because it took forever for the HSRF to harden. I went on to other projects and will come back to sanding later. It did harden, it just took longer than expected.

The side latches for the hood is the next item staring at me, begging for resolution. I started with the DS, because I have figured out how to do that side. I still am not solid on how I will do the PS. Similar method, but it will require its own unique solution. I first took 3/16" steel plate 4" wide an cut a piece shaped like the outside frame tube of the DS footbox.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58212&d=1473062455

I then marked a line to represent the top of the frame bar, and vertical lines to show where the vertical adjustment holes will go.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58213&d=1473062455

I drilled holes to accommodate the size of the U bold legs, and drilled similar holes to attach this piece to the inside of the frame rail.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58214&d=1473062456

A few minutes with the sabre saw and a hard metal blade, and the holes on the top become a slot to offer up and down adjustability. Ok, to be fair, it also included a few minutes with a metal file to smooth the inside edges of the slots.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58215&d=1473062457

to be continued . . .

Jazzman

09-05-2016, 03:46 AM

It took a good amount of filing to get the slots to just the right width and length. Once done, the squared U-bolt will slide vertically to allow for vertical adjustability.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58216&d=1473062457

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58217&d=1473062458

I drilled holes in the frame rail to match the holes in the steel piece I am creating. I made sure to have my new piece perfectly vertical.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58218&d=1473062459

I bolted the bracket to the inside of the exterior frame tube.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58220&d=1473062460

I bolted it all together without the outboard footbox panel in place. I wanted to see if all the pieces are going to connect. It does!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58221&d=1473062461

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58219&d=1473062460

I then took the u bolt off the bracket, reinstalled the DS outboard footbox panel, and marked where the holes must be drilled in the sheet metal. I drilled the holes just large enough to receive the U bolt legs. I will enlarge these holes at a later time to put in rubber grommets. I put the "U" bolt through the outside sheet metal, put nuts on the inside, and then pushed the entire U bolt through the sheet metal side and through the brackets on the inside. I secured them with nuts on the inside of the bracket.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58222&d=1473062462

Jazzman

09-05-2016, 03:57 AM

Here is how it looks on the inside of the hood:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58225&d=1473065622

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58224&d=1473062464

It works very well, and holds the sides of the hood extremely tightly. I think it will work very nicely. When it is time to powder coat parts, I will remove this plate and have it coated black.

wareaglescott

09-05-2016, 06:03 AM

nice fabrication! looking good

Polecat

09-05-2016, 06:37 AM

I really appreciate these detailed post with pictures, this will really help when I start my build. Keep up the good work.

Jazzman

09-05-2016, 10:13 AM

I really appreciate these detailed post with pictures, this will really help when I start my build. Keep up the good work.

I am more than happy to do it. Are you considering doing a flip top?

Jazzman

09-05-2016, 11:38 PM

Not to steal David's thunder, but he reminded me that I also got my personalized plate for my Roadster. In my case, it is on my truck for the time being. When the car is done, I will move it over to the Roadster.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58263&d=1473135375

Didn't get much done today, but made some progress. I started out by bonding the lower Fang receivers to the inside of the body. I used the 3M Panel bonding cement. The first one went on with no drama at all.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58264&d=1473135376

Unfortunately, that is when I ran out of 3M Panel Bonding cement! Arrrgh! Oh well. Ordered another one, it will be here in a couple of days. I moved on to putting HSRF around the inside of the flange on the front of the body. It won't be seen, but I t should help to stiffen the front of the body sides.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58265&d=1473135376

I spent the rest of the day laying on HSRF and sanding down the remains. I have a working version of the PS latch bar attachment. I had to go to Ace for some parts. Now I have to make a final version. Probably no photos for several days, but I'll see what I can do.

Jazzman

09-13-2016, 03:29 AM

It seems forever since I had some time to work on the Roadster. Too much work, too much travel, is getting in the way of my progress. Tonight I finally got back at it. It took me a while to figure out my next step in the process. While out of town, I received my new tube of composite/metal bonding cement. I affixed the PS fang receiver to the inside of the body and bolted it into place. I also cemented the perforated discs that will hold the PS hood latch in place. With them drying, I turned my attention to the PS hood latch system. I began by cutting a piece of steel 4"x4", and angled the top cut to match the angle of the top of the outside PS footbox panel.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58495&d=1473753237

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58496&d=1473753237

I drilled the holes to attach this piece of steel to the inside of the PS footbox panel. The four on the outside corners will be bolted to the aluminum panel, adding rigidity. The center two are where the "U" bolt will pass through creating attachment bar that the latch will connect to.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58497&d=1473753238

As you can see in the picture below, the legs of the "U" bolt are not threaded far enough up the legs to tighten them to the steel plate. The right leg shows the problem, the left, the solution. I will put a bushing over the legs to tighten down against the steel plate.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58500&d=1473753239

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58499&d=1473753239

Here is a front view of almost how it will look when it is fully installed. I still need to replace the three washers with the correct size stainless steel washes. I also am going to cut down the bushing that goes over the leg of the "U" bolt, and cut off the excess threaded material after the new washers are installed. The bad news is that I fear that the entire mounting plate and holes are too high. I will install the system, install the body, then evaluate what should be done.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58498&d=1473753239

M3ichael

09-13-2016, 10:07 AM

Some may wonder why I am keeping this build log. I have little to offer when compared to the depth of experience that others show daily on this forum. However, I will make mistakes and learn lessons that these "experts" will not make. Therefore, I keep this log in the hope that the less experienced builders will be able to learn from my "rookie" mistakes.

Thanks Jazzman for doing the build log!

Doug Cunningham

09-13-2016, 06:58 PM

Great documentation! Subscribed and following along.

WIS89

09-13-2016, 07:50 PM

Kevin-

Awesome work as always. I really like the locking mechanism, and the work you did to make it all work! Nicely done.

I also like your plate. I have to say that if I saw it on your pick-up truck, I might scratch my head and wonder why... Makes a bunch of sense on the roadster though!!

I really enjoy seeing your work. I truly admire what you are doing, and I look forward to seeing it all completed! The build thread has been awesome to follow, and your hard work is evident in your posts. Keep up the good work brother!

Regards,

Steve

Jazzman

09-14-2016, 12:17 AM

Great documentation! Subscribed and following along.

I am humbled that anyone would subscribe to my thread! Thank you for the compliments. I hope that you have the opportunity to do this project. Believe me, I am having the greatest amount of fun in this build. I am already worrying about what I will do when this build is done, and I haven't even started the wiring!

skullandbones

09-14-2016, 02:23 PM

Great work, Kevin. It's really starting to look like a complete system. At first, I had trouble following but you must have had a vision.

Continued good luck,

WEK.

Jazzman

09-18-2016, 12:31 AM

A whole lot of work has conspired to get in the way of my progress, but slow progress has been made none the less. I finished up the PS latch and cut off the "U" bolt on the back side. I need to buy a pair of nylock nuts to truly finish it, but for now, it's as far as its going to go. On to bigger things.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58719&d=1474171913

Yesterday I went to a local Mustang performance shop and pick up (drumroll please!) MY MOTOR!! So exciting. They loaded it all up with a forklift and I was on my way.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58714&d=1474171911

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58716&d=1474171912

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58718&d=1474171913

After just a bit of encouragement with a hammer and a knife to cut away the plastic bag, the palate was remove from the bottom of the engine, and the wood frame that holds it was the only support left. I could finally set the engine down on the ground, or more accurately on two furniture dollies. (Makes it easier to roll around the shop.)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58720&d=1474171914

I finally had a chance to look at it. Yes, it is big. No, it's not the prettiest engine ever designed. The strangest part is that it came with one exhaust manifold. I didn't really expect any, and I will be adding other manifolds anyway, but to have one but not the other was truly unexpected. Just to find out why, I called the supplier. He told me that Ford can't ship with the engines with both manifolds because the other one has the Catalytic converter. (I have no idea why not, but since I am not using it anyway, it really doesn't matter.) I tried to remove the one manifold, and found I need a deeper 15mm socket. (Can someone please explain to me why an American engine made by an American company for use in an American Car uses metric fittings?!! I have a full set of deep ASE sockets!)

While picking up the engine, I also picked up the Tremec Transmission.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58715&d=1474171912

I decided to get everything done at once so I wouldn't have to take the tranny in for any changes. I had the mid-shift kit installed. It remains to be seen if it will be exactly where I want it, but as best I can tell it should be right. I also had a "strength & smoothness" upgrade done. I am not entirely sure it was worth the cost, but I wanted a smooth operating tranny. Years ago I had a Mustang that had the heaviest clutch and transmission I have ever seen, including several large trucks!! I wanted to be sure this one is smooth as glass! The Tremec TKO-600 now has carbon fibre lining, brass synchro's, and bronze Shift fork pads, fingers, and shift rails. Sadly, I can't show you any of this stuff!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58722&d=1474171915

Because of all this carbon fibre stuff etc, I am supposed to use only Mercon V Automatic Transmission Fluid. I questioned this because it is clearly a manual transmission, but he confirmed, ATF fluid only. I learn something new every day.

edwardb

09-18-2016, 06:14 AM

Congrats on your new Coyote! I remember the excitement of receiving mine and opening it for the first time almost a year ago now. Some responses -- It will look better with the covers on it. Really! But there is a lot going on with it, that's for sure. Spend the time with a neat installation and hide as much as you can around it. Makes a difference and doesn't look too bad once done. Yes, it's a metric engine. Every fastener on it from my experience. Pretty normal nowadays, even for American car companies. Most are built for the world market. Interesting explanation about the missing header. Yes, it has the catalytic converter in it. I was told "too expensive" for not providing. Not because they couldn't. Doesn't matter as you said. For the TKO, the mods didn't change the fluid recommendation. Stock Tremec is "We recommend GM Synchromesh part #12345349, or Dexron III / Mercon Spec ATF fluid for all TKO transmissions." I have the modded TKO from Liberty's. Also has carbon fiber blocker rings, etc. On my second one actually. I'm running the GM Syncromesh now with an AC Delco part number. I haven't found it in any local retail stores (actual branded, not compatible) but it's available on-line at Summit, Amazon, etc. Jegs actually has the best price right now: http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/88900333/10002/-1. It's a little more expensive than other options, but only need three quarts and it lasts a long time, so not too worried about it. Just don't think about putting in the fluid until the trans is in the car. BTW, did they also cut off the rear mount for you?

wareaglescott

09-18-2016, 07:21 AM

Great to see the engine at home. I have also been scratching my head about the single header! Now I am scratching my head wondering what to do with it. I cant stand to throw it away but really have no other use for it!

I found after I put the transmission in that the fill plug was so tight I could not budge it with the limited leverage available in the limited space. Even put my biggest torque wrench on it. I ended up just taking the top plate off and pouring the fluid in that way. However you intend to fill it you might want to just loosen the plug once and put it back in before installing the transmission in the car. Not sure how I will ever get mine loosened at this point if I needed to. I plan to make the transmission tunnel top removable so I will always have to rely on that I guess if I need to change out the fluid.

carlewms

09-18-2016, 09:48 AM

Jazzman,

Great detail ... thanks for posting the detail and the photos ...

On Post #333 you mention 3M Panel Bonding Cement ...is this the stuff you are using to bond all metal, etc to the fiberglass?

Does it work better than HSRF?

Thanks,

Jazzman

09-18-2016, 09:50 PM

On Post #333 you mention 3M Panel Bonding Cement ...is this the stuff you are using to bond all metal, etc to the fiberglass? Does it work better than HSRF?

I can't speak with great authority about the chemical processes of each product, but I can speak to it in real experience. For perforated items such as the attachment discs, both seem to be quite adequate. However, if you make a mistake with the panel bonding cement, you can just heat it with a torch and it turns into a gummy substance that can be easily removed. If you make a mistake with HSRF, you are in for some serious sanding and grinding to get it out. For solid items such as bonding aluminum or steel to fiberglass and Vinylester resin, the bonding Cement works much better. I did scuff up the aluminum on the surface to be attached, but the cement holds great!

If you need a more detailed explanation of the chemical processes, MikeInAtlanta is your guy. He knows more about this stuff than I ever will.

Jazzman

09-18-2016, 10:14 PM

edwardb

09-18-2016, 10:55 PM

I cracked open the box of wiring that came with the Coyote Engine. Is it just me, but $1500 doesn't buy as much a I remembered!! Here's the good stuff. The computer (what you are really buying!), a couple of clutch switches, and a surprisingly cheap feeling gas pedal... and a couple of exhaust sensor wires, at least one of which I have learned is going to be too short to be used.

And here is the pile of stuff that is of no earthly use on this project!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58750&d=1474253755

Notice that there is no printed directions, no schematic, no wiring diagram. Thankfully FFR has been kind enough to develop an installation guide. I already have that, and now I have to figure out where everything goes. I have also downloaded some other stuff from the various forums. I do wish there was something definitive from Ford, but they really aren't boxing these up for our purposes.

Not sure why Ford doesn't ship the instructions with the controls pack, but they have them on their website. This is the one you want: https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/instructionsheets/FordInstShtM-6017-504V.pdf. The latest Factory Five Coyote installation instructions are useful, but there is a ton of detail in the Ford instructions not provided in the FF instructions. Plus there are some differences between the two you will want to look at. Specifically the start circuit, fan circuit, and power circuit. I opted more toward the Ford approach. Also you have a decision to make about the radiator cooling installation. Like FF shows with a traditional T-filler and overflow tank, or the Ford design with a couple more hoses and an expansion tank with the cap in the tank.

The DBW module is a pretty normal automotive style sensor, made mostly from plastic. It works. A better looking and more compact version is available from Lokar for $400+, but everything I've read says they're the same technically. No actual performance difference. There's also another Ford DBW module from a van that some use. It's a little smaller, but similar construction.

Don't throw away that stuff too soon. The MAF sensor needs to be removed and used. You may decide you want to use that PCV hose. Or at least the fittings. I ended up using pieces from both of the supplied radiator hoses.

As for the O2 sensors, you can get an extension (not expensive) and use both that were provided. The longer one works great on the DS, but even the longer way is a bit short on the PS. If you want it hidden. Either extend the cable itself (not fun I found out) or just go with an extension cable. These comments are for GP Headers BTW. Shorty headers might be different.

Not really for our purposes? This is exactly intended for a street rod or project car installation. I do agree though I'm not sure why they include the stock cold air induction system. I'll bet almost no one uses it. That's one of the first things guys take out of stock Mustangs. :rolleyes:

Jazzman

09-19-2016, 02:08 AM

Thanks, EdwardB, always looking out for me!! I haven't thrown out anything. I sort of wondered if I might scrounge some parts for other purposes. Thanks for the link. I know I had it at one point, but I was going to have to go look for it again. You saved me some searching. Thanks again!!

Jazzman

09-19-2016, 02:29 AM

For those of you that are following EdwardB's amazing build thread (and that should be absolutely everyone!!), the following is going to be a rerun. Yes, I stole this from EdwardB. Being the giving man that he is, I am pretty sure he won't mind. I am attaching the clutch bottom switch in the same manner as he described. I made the mounting bracket as he described it in his thread.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58760&d=1474269314

He does such a good job of explaining it in his thread, I won't bore you with a recap. However, I did discover that that I had a minor amount of conflict between the bolts that hold the switch onto the mounting plate and the frame that holds pedal set. First I turned one of the bolts around so that perhaps the head of the bolt would not conflict. No joy.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58761&d=1474269314

Then I found I still had to grind a notch in the pedal frame to allow the bolt head to settle in. With this minor adjustment, the mounting plate was securely fastened into place.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58762&d=1474269315

I then spend quite a bit of time installing and removing the arm on the clutch MC. I found that I had to move it farther up the shaft than expected, so I had to remove it, put a nut on both sides, and then screw it all back together. It works just like it should.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58763&d=1474269315

stevo7896

09-19-2016, 02:33 AM

Quick note on the header missing from the cat side. There's a federal law that wont let you resell used cats. I had a family member with a Dodge diesel that had the cats $$$ removed. Found out while trying to acquire used .Could only get new.

Jazzman

09-19-2016, 02:43 AM

Yeah, that sounds like something silly enough to require a federal law. It makes even more sense considering that this is a NEW engine, not a used one. I am glad it is something I don't need anyway. Thanks for the chuckle Stevo.

WIS89

09-19-2016, 08:48 AM

Kevin-

Very exciting getting the engine and all the other bits together. I am still amazed that the Coyote fits in our cars; they are huge!

I look forward to reading your posts as you finish things up. It's been a great build thread!

Regards,

Steve

Jazzman

09-22-2016, 03:27 AM

Here we go! I don't have an engine stand, so I am just working off of the engine hoist. I freed the engine from the wooden stand. It turns out that there was three straps attached to the engine, but only one of those straps was actually attached to the stand! I also removed the one and only header. It turns out that the engine provider wants to buy it back from me. He will pair it with a matching one that has the CAT converter, then sell the pair to someone else. Fine with me, I probably would throw it away anyway!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58865&d=1474530671

I drained the oil out the engine, and just let it hang there and drain for almost two hours. I got most of the oil out.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58866&d=1474530671

I carefully unplugged the low oil sensor wire from the tan plug on the DS of the pan. I unscrewed the tan plug, and installed it into the new Moroso Oil pan. Using a 10mm socket, I removed most of the bolts holding the stock oil pan on the engine. There were three longer bolts which required a 13mm closed end box wrench. After removing those bolts, a light tap on the pan freed it from the engine. There was a very small amount of oil in the bottom of the pan, as well as some metal shavings that had been caught in the oil during the first test run of the engine after initial construction of the engine.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58871&d=1474530674

I turned my attention to the new Moroso oil pan. To avoid problems, I decided to grind out the area of conflict with the oil dip stick. The oval hole on the left needs to have part of the wall opened up.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58867&d=1474530672

I removed the inner top of the pan to gain access to the area to be ground away. I used the die grinder and a carbide bit to create a space for the dip stick to pass by.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58868&d=1474530672

After smoothing out the area, I used a magnet to collect up as many of the metal shavings as I could get. Then I washed the entire Moroso oil pan with soap and hot water. After drying thoroughly, I then use compressed air to blast out every last corner to be sure all the metal shavings were removed. The new pan is now ready to go. (not to mention it has a shiny, streak free finish and a lemony scent!!)

Jazzman

09-22-2016, 03:38 AM

Now that I have access to the inside of the oil pan, I need to remove the stock oil pick up line.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58872&d=1474530674

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58873&d=1474530675

Of course there is always one bolt that is going to be difficult. The rear most bolt nearest the actual pickup end was easy. the first bolt at the front of the pickup came out easily too. However . . . This one last bolt cannot be accessed with the 10mm socket that I have. The socket conflicts with the metal mold piece that sticks out from the corner of the area where the pickup enters the block.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58875&d=1474534125

I am using a standard length 10mm socket. There is no room for an open or closed end box wrench. I don't have a long 10mm socket, but my only thought is to get one and see if it will just slip by the metal mold piece. Got any other suggestions on how to get that thing out of there? I could grind that mold area back to provide space for a socket, but I really don't like grinding on a brand new engine inside the oil pan area!!

wareaglescott

09-22-2016, 04:19 AM

That bolt was a real pain to get out. I managed it with a socket I had to get it started and a open ended wrench but it took a while.
I couldn't tell in the pic but did you notch that rear lift plate where it might come close to conflicting with the PS footbox?

Jeff Kleiner

09-22-2016, 04:21 AM

...but I really don't like grinding on a brand new engine inside the oil pan area!!

Understandable, but it wouldn't bother me a bit to grind down a socket to fit :)

Jeff

Jazzman

09-23-2016, 01:01 AM

Understandable, but it wouldn't bother me a bit to grind down a socket to fit :)
Jeff

I thought about that, but the space between the two was so narrow, I was afraid that the walls of the socket would buckle. In the end I VERY carefully took a small file and slowly filed away the mold mark while vacuuming away the metal filings with my shop vac with the cone shaped attachment on it. That thing will suck up your toenails if you are not careful. After a few minutes of careful filing in a very uncomfortable position, I was able to slip a 10mm deep socket over the bolt head and get it loose. I really don't know exactly how they got it in there in the first place!

Putting the new oil pickup line in was entirely straightforward. Slip it in, put the bolts back in, tighten them up. No strain there, except for the very uncomfortable body position trying to line it up and get the bolts in correctly. The fact that I wear tri-focal glasses to see clearly at short distances compounds the problem. Trying to get clear focus on an item at the very bottom of the engine is an interesting challenge!

From there it should have been all downhill, but working alone, on the underside of an engine hanging on the hoist, nothing is easy. Once I figured a way to juggle the new pan, a bolt, and the socket wrench, I finally got the pan mated to the engine. I left all the bolts loose while I hand threaded each one to make sure it was not cross threaded. All the bolts went in very easily. Then was just a matter of tightening them all. I realized after I got all done that I neglected to use blue Loctite on them. Since they didn't have any to begin with, it didn't occur to me. Do you think I should remove each one and Loctite them? It sure is easier to do it now than it will be when the engine is all installed.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58910&d=1474608937

Newbie lesson: You know why the professionals have those nice engine stands that safely hold the engine and make it possible to spin it around while working on it? Because it makes sense! Yes, you can change the oil pan from the bottom while it hangs from the hoist, but it sure would have been easier if I could have spun the engine around so I would have been working on the top of the engine where I could see everything clearly. Because I haven't yet worked on an engine in that way, I can't be sure, but it sure seems like that particular project would have been easier on and engine stand.

Now I have to figure out how to set the engine down. I am sure that Moroso makes a great oil pan, but I am also pretty sure they didn't design it to hold the weight of the entire engine. More's the pity, since the bottom of it is flat. Oh well. I will either have to remake the wooden stand that came in the crate, or just buy a metal stand. They are pretty cheap. I don't know how comfortable I am leaving the engine hanging on the hoist. I seems solid. Hmmm.

All the remaining parts have been selected. I am going to review my order tomorrow after a good nights rest, and then pull the trigger on the rest of the parts. That's a nerve wracking job, making sure you don't forget anything. Correction, I know I will forget something. I just don't want it to be anything too obvious!

wareaglescott

09-23-2016, 04:34 AM

I also forgot lock tite on the first go. Went back and added it. I was wondering about the effectiveness in that situation. The common tip when trying to remove a lock tite bolt is to add heat if needed....so if you are putting it in an area that gets hot is it just going to negate the lock tite in the first place?? I have no idea but it couldn't hurt.

I also thought that oil pickup and pan job would have been much easier upside down on a stand but now that you are done you will not need one any further so it is nice not to spend the money.

The quicker you get the engine in the car the less time you have to worry about it hanging. Haha

Jazzman

09-23-2016, 09:20 AM

Heat is applied to remove RED loctite. BLUE loctite can generally be removed just with additional effort. The blue stuff just keeps the bolts from vibrating out. The heat generated in your oil pan is not adequate to release red Loctite.

Edit: Wow, that sounded really formal and harsh!! Can you tell I was rushing to get out to a meeting. Sorry. To loosen something with RED Loctite on it, you have to apply torch level heat. I avoid red Loctite if at all possible.

Jazzman

09-24-2016, 01:07 AM

Ok, I give up. How do you get this thing off?!!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58946&d=1474697155

Earlier this evening I took out all the oil pan bolts one by one and added blue Loctite to each of them. May not be necessary, but call me paranoid, I don't want them falling out at the wrong time!!

Jazzman

09-24-2016, 02:24 AM

While waiting for a myriad of engine parts to arrive from Summit, I am working on the items I have on hand. First up, engine mounts. On page 23 of the most recent Coyote Engine Installation Instructions from FFR, they reference several 1/2" thick engine mount spacers, #16249, #16250, and #16251. These appear in the drawings to be 1/2" thick pieces of solid steel. Maybe it is because it is after midnight, but I don't ever remember seeing any parts even close to those shapes, and I think I would remember pieces of 1/2" thick solid steel, even if only due to the weight. I rechecked my inventory, and I couldn't even find these parts listed. Does anyone know what box they should have been in, or what else they would have been packed with? I know EdwardB used a Whitby 3/8" spacer, and I am not sure if the spacer he references is for the same purpose. I think so. I may have to contact FFR on Monday.

edwardb

09-24-2016, 06:08 AM

Ok, I give up. How do you get this thing off?!!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58946&d=1474697155

Note the hex shape in the oil filter threaded adapter in the center? Turn that puppy and the whole assembly will come off, exposing the "normal" oil filter mating surface on the block. I didn't have anything that fit the hex, so jammed two nuts on a bolt, ground them slightly so they fit, and it turned right off. You will need a new short adapter AL3Z-6890-A to replace the long one holding on the oil cooler. Used the same cobbled together tool to install the new adapter. One of little details not in the new FF installation instructions.

While waiting for a myriad of engine parts to arrive from Summit, I am working on the items I have on hand. First up, engine mounts. On page 23 of the most recent Coyote Engine Installation Instructions from FFR, they reference several 1/2" thick engine mount spacers, #16249, #16250, and #16251. These appear in the drawings to be 1/2" thick pieces of solid steel. Maybe it is because it is after midnight, but I don't ever remember seeing any parts even close to those shapes, and I think I would remember pieces of 1/2" thick solid steel, even if only due to the weight. I rechecked my inventory, and I couldn't even find these parts listed. Does anyone know what box they should have been in, or what else they would have been packed with? I know EdwardB used a Whitby 3/8" spacer, and I am not sure if the spacer he references is for the same purpose. I think so. I may have to contact FFR on Monday.

I originally used the Whitby spacers on top of the chassis motor mounts. But noticed the same 1/2-inch steel spacers that FF designed to fit inside the motor mounts in the new Coyote installation instructions. Decided to give them a try. Ordered in July and received in August. They had just been designed and released to production. They weren't available when I ordered my kit, and I suspect only included in very recent deliveries with the Coyote installation option. I think they're a big improvement over the external spacers, and the added thickness makes the engine fit even better. I recommend them.

Parts as received. I cleaned them up and hit with some chassis matching paint.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2008052016/th_IMG_4376_zps6lbotrez.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2008052016/IMG_4376_zps6lbotrez.jpg.html)

Installed. I did mine after the fact by raising the engine just enough to get the motor mounts in/out. Obviously would be much easier to put them in from the start. This was a fairly recent update in my build thread.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Coyote%20Engine/th_IMG_0487_zpshmpw6wll.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Coyote%20Engine/IMG_0487_zpshmpw6wll.jpg.html)

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Coyote%20Engine/th_IMG_0488_zpsdqr8ot17.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Coyote%20Engine/IMG_0488_zpsdqr8ot17.jpg.html)

Jazzman

09-25-2016, 10:53 PM

Finally a beautiful weekend! This is the first weekend that you can really feel the cool fall breezes in the air. Fall and Spring are why we endure the ovens of summer to live here. So what did I do to get out and enjoy this gorgeous weather? I headed for the shop . . . to get my tools to address the long delayed project of replacing the pool pump with a new energy efficient variable speed pump!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58997&d=1474858743

That thing took about 70% of my weekend, but long story short, its done and works great. But that's a story for another forum.

In between working on the pool and my tan, I made some fun progress on the Roadster. I began by taking EdwardB's suggestion and found an alternate tool for removing the tube that holds the oil cooler on the engine. In my case, I found a grade 8, 5/16" bolt that had just the right head size to fit snugly inside the oil cooler retaining tube. I put the bolt in head first, and gave it a couple of taps with a hammer to be sure the head of the bolt was well seated in the hexagonal area of the tube.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58989&d=1474858738

I attached a pair of vice-grips to the shaft of the bolt to use as a handle.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58990&d=1474858739

Just a little pressure on the vice grip handle, and the retaining tube began rotating easily. I was able to remove it most of the way by hand. Here is what You end up with:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58991&d=1474858739

My kit came with the oil relocation kit. It did not, however, come with the threaded nipple that would attach the engine end of the relocation kit to the standard oil filter location. I haven't decided if I am going to use it. It looks nice. Any thoughts on the subject?

I turned my attention to the engine and transmission mounts. By reviewing the other forum posts on the subject (mostly EdwardB's) I quickly determined the location and the parts needed. I found that my kit did not come with the engine mount spacers that FFR is now including in the coyote fitment package. I will have to call them on Monday and order a set. I temporarily mounted the engine mounts in place just to get them in the area, then moved on to the transmission. This is the first time I have had the Tremec TKO-600 out of the box. It weighs a good bit and seem to be well built. Apparently when they rebuilt the tranny for "strength and smoothness" they had to reseal the access ports on the top. There is now very gooey, bright red sealer squeezed out of the seams. Whatever that stuff is, I'll bet it keeps the tranny well sealed! The rear mounting holes were already cut off for me by the place that prepared the TKO for me. I put the rear tranny mount together and bolted it into place.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58992&d=1474858740

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58993&d=1474858741

I removed the black plastic plug just forward of the tranny mount on the left side of the tranny case. I had been given a free plug for this hole, and quickly installed it. The bolt that will keep that plug in place was a bit long, but I quickly shortened it on the grinder. A bit of blue Loctite, and that thing is going nowhere.

Jazzman

09-25-2016, 11:17 PM

I ordered parts from Summit on Friday afternoon. Today (Sunday) a very heavy box arrived with most of the parts! That's amazing service! I had ordered an alternator, clutch, starter, assorted bolts, Throw-out bearing fuel pressure regulator, fuel pressure gauge, and Heidts valve. I got right to work on the alternator. It was rather straight forward except that the neglected to include the top stud mounting nut. I will go buy another one as soon as I figure out what size it is. I am pretty sure it is metric (everything else is!).

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58994&d=1474858741

Next is the belt tensioner and the idler pulley. The replacement idler pulley that comes in the package with the alternator is a nice upgrade over the one that is already on the engine. The replacement part is steel, the original is plastic. I trust steel. A bit of blue Loctite on the bolt threads, and that part is done. The tensioner must be installed with the nub on the back in the hole on the engine block that is shaped to receive it. It won't go on any other way and look like it makes any sense.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59026&d=1474862904

Installing the serpentine accessory belt (I still want to call it a fan belt, but that is very old-school!) stumped me a bit, but with the help of a friend on the forum, I was able to discover the secret of installing the belt. I used a long handled socket to push down / move the tensioner backward to provide slack in the belt to get it around all the other pulleys.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58996&d=1474858743

The tensioner pulley holds the entire system in place. It all looks good to me.

Jazzman

09-26-2016, 12:06 AM

I add this detailed explanation for two reasons. First I hope it will help someone considering this project, and second, I would really appreciate those of you that have done this before to review and critique the work that I have done. This is the first time I have installed a clutch, and the directions from all sources are sketchy at best. The FFR "Coyote Installation Manual assumes you already have knowledge of assembling your engine. They only add information you would not expect. So for the newbie like me, this is a very exciting, but also very intimidating part of the build process. I found that this YouTube video was very helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4lvz9l69yk

Keep in mind that this information applies to the installation of a Ford/Centerforce clutch specified in the FFR Coyote installation instructions. I will start with a photo of where the engine sits before I do anything in the area of the flywheel.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58998&d=1474858744

I do this mostly so you will notice the yellow paint mark on the flywheel about the 5 o'clock position. This mark caused me no end of research and confusion, but in the end may not have amounted to much in my specific installation.

The first step is to install the "backing plate" beneath the flywheel. To do this, you have to remove the flywheel. First the bolts have to come out. I couldn't break them loose with even my longest socket handle because the flywheel will spin and turn the crank. After trying unsuccessfully to remove the bolts with a regular socket set, I went to Home depot to buy an impact wrench. Boy did this tool do a great job getting those bolts out! Less than a second each, and all eight of them came right out. Surprisingly the bolts had no thread lock of any kind on them. They will by the time It is reinstalled.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58999&d=1474858745

The flywheel will now come off. It takes a bit of wiggling to get it to start moving, but then it comes away. Set it down on the bench, you will need it in just a minute. Here is what it looks like with the flywheel removed:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59000&d=1474858746

The backing plate that came with the QuickTime bell housing gets hung on the two alignment posts at 10 and 2 on the rear of the engine block.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59001&d=1474858746

Check that all the holes line up with the holes in the block, but It doesn't appear that you can put the plate on any other way.

Return to the flywheel. Those alignment dowel pins that are already installed into the flywheel have to come out and be replaced. To be sure I got the new pins back in the same place, I made a small mark with a sharpie pen next to each dowel pin. A sledge hammer and a punch will drive them out. It does take a pretty good amount of pressure to drive them out, but they do come out.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59002&d=1474858747

The replacement dowel pins come in the Clutch installation Bolt set that you have to order along with the clutch. There are actually two sets of replacement dowel pins. THe narrow straight set are not used and can be discarded. The set you are looking for is the set that is larger on the bottom, and then notches in to be narrower at the top. Find these pins, and drive the wider bottom section into the holes that the original dowel pins were in. Drive them in just enough that the notch where the diameter reduces is right at the surface of the flywheel.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59003&d=1474858748

just to be sure they are in the right place, I took the clutch plate unit and set it over the flywheel and aligned it on the new dowel pins. I did not put any pressure on it because I still have to reinstall the flywheel on the crank.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59005&d=1474858749

Jazzman

09-26-2016, 12:39 AM

In the previous photo, you can see again the yellow mark on the teeth of the flywheel. In the limited information I could find online, That yellow mark is supposed to be lined up with a corresponding mark on the Clutch disc, and correspond to a similar mark on the clutch pressure plate itself. Unfortunately, I could not find any such marks on either of the other pieces. I searched and searched, but I could find nothing to give me an indication of which way the clutch housing itself should be installed. I tried it all three ways that it could fit over the pins, and it fit perfectly each way. I decided that it must not make any difference.

Before installing the clutch plate, I had to reinstall the flywheel. I am not sure if that yellow mark on the flywheel has meaning, but I decided to put it back on in exactly the same place as it was before it was taken off. This is significantly easier because of the way the attaching bolts are offset. I put the yellow mark in the same area that it had come from, then turned the flywheel slightly to line up all the holes. When it was wrong only one of the holes would line up. As soon as it was right, all eight holes lined up perfectly. I put some blue Loctite on each bolt then hand threaded them in to be sure they were in smoothly. I'm not sure, but I think this may be "Kevin Proof"! I had to search to find the right torque specifications for these bolts. It was no where near as high as I had suspected. It is "177 INCH pounds plus 60 degrees". I found this on this forum as well as "that other one that shall not be mentioned!!. Now what knucklehead gives such a confusing specification! 177 INCH pounds is 14.74999 Foot pounds. The "plus 60 degrees" part can't be converted to Foot pounds. Further research showed that it equated to approximately 18 foot pounds of torque. This is what I used to torque each bolt.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59006&d=1474858750

The next step is to install the clutch disk. This requires a tool I was not aware of. When I ordered my clutch, I should have ordered a clutch disc centering tool #50048. This little plastic piece is inserted into the pilot bearing in the center of the flywheel and keeps the disc centered while you install and tighten the clutch pressure plate. Well, I didn't order it. Since patience has never been one of my virtues, I decided to improvise. I needed something cylindrical that would fit snuggly inside the pilot bearing, and somethingelse that would fit over the first item to keep the larger center hole on the clutch disc centered. I had lots of graduated cylindars in my socket set, so I first found a 10mm deep socket that fit snugly inside the pilot bearing.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59007&d=1474858751

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59008&d=1474858752

Then I found a 3/4" standard socket that fit snuggly inside the center hole of the clutch plate.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59009&d=1474858753

To keep the two centered on each other, I found the 10mm hex head socket that fits right into the 10mm deep socket. By inserting it through the center of the 3/4" socket, it keeps all of them in line.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59010&d=1474858754

It looks a bit goofy, but it works! I place the clutch disk, flywheel side in, over this centering stack of sockets.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59011&d=1474858755

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59012&d=1474858756

I think my improvised clutch disc centering tool worked, but I would suggest you buy the right tool when you are ordering the clutch itself. It certainly would have been easier.

Jazzman

09-26-2016, 01:13 AM

I hung the clutch pressure plate on the dowel pins installed in part one. They lined up perfectly.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59015&d=1474858758

The clutch to Flywheel mounting bolts that came with the clutch mounting bolt set already have some sort of thread locker on them:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59014&d=1474858758

I hand threaded each of the six bolts into their corresponding holes. Each one lined up perfectly. To hold the clutch disk in the center off the plate, I added a socket extension to the end of the centering stack of sockets. My beautiful assistant held this "handle" to keep the disc centered while I torqued down the bolts. I torqued them in a chris-cross pattern in two stages, ultimately tightening them to 18 foot pounds of torque each. I did remember to remove the stack of sockets from the middle of the pilot bushing. Just like the disc centering tool would have done, my stack of sockets slid right out. Time will tell if my improvised centering device will be adequate to allow the shaft of the transmission to slide in smoothly.

I have a clutch fork on order. It is not here yet, and I fear it may be the wrong one. Because of this, I decided that this was a good place to stop for the night. I also know this long series of posts and photos would take me a while to write. So that's it for this weekend.

Jazzman

09-26-2016, 01:53 AM

Last night very late, or perhaps this morning very early, I had time to just stand and think about the coyote wiring harness and the computer location. For most Coyote builds, the location that FFR is suggesting is fine: mounted outboard between the upper and lower 3/4" frame rails. It is handy, mostly hidden by the body, and generally out of the way. However, on a flip top build such as mine, this area will be extremely visible, being right where the best view of the engine will be when you open the hood. I had considered trying to mount the computer flat on the top of the PS foot box, but the cable coming from the engine to the computer is too short to make this work. (I toyed briefly with trying to extend the cable, then I saw how complex it was!! Nope, I'm out!) Since I will not have hood hinges in the traditional locations, It frees up quite a bit of real estate to work with. It seems that most people using power steering are mounting the overflow tank on the inside of the PS "F" panel. However, I think I will mount it on to one side or the other of the coolant reservoir on some sort of a custom made mounting rail parallel to but above the frame "X" member. This frees up the inside of the PS "F" panel. If I mount the computer on the inside of the "F" panel, it appears that all the lines will still be long enough to reach their intended locations.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59027&d=1474872991

I can route the computer main cable along the lower 3/4" frame rail. I can even route the long line for the alternator and other items that goes around the back of the engine to the DS, and instead run it back up the lower 3/4" frame rail, into the area behind dash, then around to the DS where it will come out through a new cable exit location as yet to be determined. This will keep it mostly out of sight.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59028&d=1474872991

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59029&d=1474872992

Does anyone know if I open up the main cable to the computer, will the wires from this long line actually start at the computer, or back at the fuse box? If they start at the fuse box, I should be able to peel them out of the main cable group, and pull them off just where the main cable turns to go forward. It would be a bit more clean.

I have also considered running these same cables along the underside of the upper 3/4" frame rail to keep them further away from the heat of the headers. Both will work, trying to figure out what will be the most aesthetically pleasing.

Any thoughts from those of you that have completed the coyote wiring? I am trying to hide as much wiring as possible, but that is even more difficult when you open up the entire front end!!

wareaglescott

09-26-2016, 04:27 AM

SSNK4US

09-29-2016, 01:52 AM

Jazzman

09-29-2016, 02:56 AM

Jazzman

09-29-2016, 03:31 AM

We have Touchdown! After 10 months on the frame dolly, today was the day to put the car down on it's own feet. I started by lifting the rear just enough to get the tallest jack stants in there. The motorcycle jack really works well for this job.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59148&d=1475136265

I then lifted the front enough to allow the frame dolly to be rolled out from under the car. Then the fun began. With my trust, if somewhat timid, assistant watching and worrying, we slowly dropped the car a couple inches at a time. It worked out fine, but I would recommend more help, more jack stands and more jacks to make this job a little easier. The good news is it is down safely on terra firma, or at least on concrete on terra firma!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59147&d=1475136265

After looking at it for 10 months sitting about a foot taller than it is now, it is startling to see how low it is, and it is not even at correct height. The frame is at least 7-8" off the ground before putting the engine weight into it. It looks fantastic!!

I started working on the wiring: slowly, methodically, thoughtfully. Mostly because it is an overwhelming task to begin with. I am sure I can do it, but it will take time to sort out every wire. I began by stiffening the firewall by attaching 1.5" wide pieces of aluminum in such a way as to create an upper level to lay wires before they are sorted into their final locations. After installing them, they give me a way to store the cables out of the way, but still provide access for installation and repair.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59149&d=1475136265

I marked and drilled holes for the two rivnuts that would hold up the PDB (Power Distribution Box). I like to use rivnuts, but these particular ones are very strong and don't install easily, even with the tool designed for that job.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59145&d=1475136265

The bad news is that the rivet installation tool broke while installing the second rivnut.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59146&d=1475136265

Do you think it might be because I have superhuman strength? No. Because I bought a cheap tool? It wasn't cheap, even if the manufacture was. Perhaps because I put 12" x 3/4" pipes on the handles to increase my leverage to get the rivets to crush and stay? Mmmmmm, Maybe!! :o

Despite the minor drama, I was able to get the PDB installed. Right where it is supposed to be.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59144&d=1475136265

wareaglescott

09-29-2016, 04:12 AM

Speaking of how low it is I realized my floor jack when completely retracted is taller than the 4.5" ride height which means I can't use that jack to put the car on the ground. Just something to consider. I have never had a car I couldn't get that jack under. I've been using a wheeled dolly on each wheel and it has been working out nice. Gives me a couple more inches for now. I have found numerous times I have taken the car on and off the jack stands for various tasks. A good tip I got was to use those during the engine install. It was very easy to move the car to the engine vs moving the crane to the car.

On the torque plus degrees setting you could mark the bolt and mark 60 degrees then gradually increase the torque setting on the wrench and find the resultant torque it takes to get the 60 degrees. Then you would have a torque setting for the rest. How did you torque the rear wheel nuts? I remember the manual specified a torque plus 45 degrees on those.

edwardb

09-29-2016, 05:10 AM

Hi Jazzman, I have a scary observation about your flywheel. I'm not a coyote guy, but playing with small block Fords and Chevys, big and small, flywheel bolt torques are in the 70-80 ft pound range. Attached is a picture from ford racing (hopefully lol) which shows 177 inch pounds to be correct. I worked for one of those German luxury car line for over 20 years and they use a LOT of angle torqueing. The extra 60 degrees can be quite significant depending on thread pitch. I hope you didn't just torque them to 18 ft pounds. Maybe I'm wrong, someone please chime in with real coyote knowledge. To me 18 ft pounds on a flywheel is a little scary.

I agree completely with Kurt's comments. Meant to say something before but have been very busy... 18 ft/lbs for flywheel bolts is way too light. I had the flywheel off on my Coyote build also to install the QuickTime block plate, and I did actually also use a billet flywheel, but just a personal choice. By all accounts the nodular flywheel that came with the engine is fine. I used new flywheel bolts when putting it back together, but that's an old habit and in hindsight probably not necessary. Fortunately, they weren't expensive. But I too encountered the torque to angle setting, and followed it. I agree they probably were in the 70-80 ft/lbs range when done. It was tight enough I had to take measures to keep the engine from turning over while tightening.

Why not just use a straight ft/lbs number for the torque? Torque to angle is something many manufacturers use. It eliminates a number of things that can cause a traditional torque value to widely vary, including the type of fastener, materials used for both the bolt and the part it screws in to, cleanliness of the thread, if lubrication is used, type of lubrication used, etc. If you haven't gotten there yet, you'll find torque to angle also on the rear IRS axle bolts. Torque to angle is also typically used for stretch bolts (also known as torque-to-yield bolts) where the proper tightness is especially critical, although these clutch bolts are not stretch bolts.

I see from your pictures you went with the QuickTime 6081 SFI bell housing. Hopefully you're prepared for how much that's going to be below your 4-inch chassis tubes. You can see it already with the amount it's below your Moroso oil pan. That flat oil pan surface will be just even with the 4-inch chassis tubes.

2bking

09-29-2016, 08:34 AM

The torque plus angle is easy to figure for the specified values. The 60 degrees is angle between the flats on the bolt head so no measuring is required. Just torque to the specified amount, mark a flat location and turn the bolt until the next flat lines up where the previous one was.

Jazzman

09-29-2016, 01:07 PM

Thank you all for your comments and assistance!

WarEagleScott - I have not yet fully torqued the rear (or front) axel bolts because I had no way to stop the wheels from turning while I torqued the bolts. The brakes were not installed at that point. Now that the car is on the ground and the brakes are installed, I should be able to do that in short order. It is on my "Torque checklist" of things I need to go back and revisit.

EdwardB - You are a true gentleman to respond during your big move. I hope it is going as well as possible. (it is moving, of course!!) I like the little friend for your Cobras. Do you plan on any upgrades to it? Perhaps a custom paint job or a chromed mower blade cover? Bigger engine????
I now plan to completely remove the clutch and flywheel and start over just to be sure the torque values are right. Thanks for the education on why the confusing values.
As for the #6081 SFI Bell housing, until the car got on the ground, it did not become clear to me that the bell housing would be an issue. However, it is a really big issue! I am going to contact the place I bought the bell housing and exchange it for a #6080 NON SFI Bell Housing. With only 4.5" of clearance, to give up 1.25" at the bell housing is way too much, and I would speculate even dangerous.

2BKing - Thanks for that simple way to do "+60 degrees. That makes really good sense!!

I called Ford Racing Techline at 800-367-3788. The guy I talked to was a bit prickly, sort of sounded like he was frustrated that I would bother him with such a dumb question. He did, however, email the answers that I need, so I guess I got what I needed. Here is the answer directly from Ford Racing Techline: (Note: it says "6 Speed", but it is instructions specifically for my Coyote motor and the Ford Racing clutch I installed. The Clutch doesn't know it's being attached to a Tremec 5 speed!)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59158&d=1475172512
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59157&d=1475172511

I called the vendor that sold me the Quicktime Bell Housing. He was not aware that there was any difference in diameter between the #6081 SFI Bell and the #6080 NON-SFI Bell. He told me to call Holley Performance products (the makers of Quicktime Bell housings) and confirm that there is a difference. I am pretty sure that if EdwardB says there is a difference, there IS! Unfortunately, the vendor wouldn't accept that authority. I called Holley at 866-466-6553 . . . and waited on hold . . . and waited . . . and waited . . .

Jazzman

09-29-2016, 03:35 PM

I now know more about Quicktime Bell Housings than I ever wanted to know!! I waited for a long time on hold with Holley. When I finally got a human, he didn't know the diameter of either of the bell housings. (not in his computer!) He was going to see if someone could measure them, but couldn't find anyone to do it. I did learn the minor differences. The SFI rated Bell housing #6081 and the NON-SFI bell housing #6080 have the same size bell. The key difference is the flange that attaches the bell to the block. Here is a photo of my current, and now clearly wrong, bell housing #6081:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59160&d=1475181062

Notice the flange around the edge where all the bolts connect to the block is smooth and very wide. Now here is a photo stolen from EdwardB's thread that shows his #6080 bell housing (my thanks or apologies to Edwardb!):

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59159&d=1475180073

Clearly the flange is much more narrow, and instead of the edge being smooth, it has ears protruding where the bolts attach to the block. Because of all this, it's size is significantly smaller. Once again, EdwardB is right. I will have to forego the SFI rated bell housing. I think I can live with that decision. Of course it is going to take over a week to get a new one! Oh well! Off to remove the clutch and flywheel to get to the plate which also has to be exchanged. This will give me practice getting those torque value correct!!

GoDadGo

09-29-2016, 04:10 PM

Hey Jazzman,

If I ever do a Ford build I'll be bugging you and Sir EdwardB!
Patients You Two Have Far More Than Me!
Good Luck!

Steve

Jazzman

09-29-2016, 04:40 PM

Hey Jazzman,
If I ever do a Ford build I'll bugging you and Sir EdwardB!
Patients You Two Have Far More Than Me!
Good Luck!

Steve

EdwardB has skill, experience, vision and indeed patience. In my case, "patience" masquerades as ignorance! For me it's all a part of the learning curve! I asked for it, I got it!

BTW, nice Yoda sentence structure there! "Patients You Two Have Far More Than Me!" But to quote this same master mechanic: "Do. Or Do Not. There is no Try!" So I "Do".

SSNK4US

09-29-2016, 09:05 PM

One more flywheel comment..... Might want to replace the flywheel and pressure plate bolts since they've already been torqued/stretched... Bolts are cheap.... Compared to the consequences...... ;)

Jazzman

09-29-2016, 10:34 PM

One more flywheel comment..... Might want to replace the flywheel and pressure plate bolts since they've already been torqued/stretched... Bolts are cheap.... Compared to the consequences...... ;)

I don't disagree. As bolts go, however, those are not cheap! $47 at Summit! Oh well, the cost of learning I suppose. Does anyone else concur that replacement of the flywheel bolts is a prudent decision? Any dissenters?

edwardb

09-29-2016, 10:47 PM

EdwardB - You are a true gentleman to respond during your big move. I hope it is going as well as possible. (it is moving, of course!!) I like the little friend for your Cobras. Do you plan on any upgrades to it? Perhaps a custom paint job or a chromed mower blade cover? Bigger engine????
I now plan to completely remove the clutch and flywheel and start over just to be sure the torque values are right. Thanks for the education on why the confusing values.
As for the #6081 SFI Bell housing, until the car got on the ground, it did not become clear to me that the bell housing would be an issue. However, it is a really big issue! I am going to contact the place I bought the bell housing and exchange it for a #6080 NON SFI Bell Housing. With only 4.5" of clearance, to give up 1.25" at the bell housing is way too much, and I would speculate even dangerous.

Thanks! Long days but we're making progress. My new little friend already has 22 rocking horsepower. ;) No custom paint or shiny parts in the future. I think you're making the right choice replacing the QuickTime bell with the non-SFI version. I've seen where guys have cut the bottom of the SFI one so it doesn't hang below the frame. But then it looks suspiciously like the non-SFI one. From a practical standpoint, I don't think you're giving up anything with the non-SFI version. It's still steel vs. aluminum and very robust.

I don't disagree. As bolts go, however, those are not cheap! $47 at Summit! Oh well, the cost of learning I suppose. Does anyone else concur that replacement of the flywheel bolts is a prudent decision? Any dissenters?

Having been only used once at the factory and once by you (but not tight enough so definitely not stretched) I suspect you're fine. If you really want to change them though, OEM Ford ones are a little over a buck each. I bought eight of these: http://www.tascaparts.com/oe-ford/br3z6379a. I don't know what Summit is selling you for $47! Must be gold plated.

SSNK4US

09-29-2016, 11:40 PM

Ok more of my two cents lol
The expensive bolts your getting from summit are probably ARP bolts... Different material, probably chromoly and would have a totally different torque spec. I'd stick with Edwardb's factory bolts at a buck a piece. Unless of course your gonna dump the clutch at like 8 grand lol 177 in pounds + 60 is for stock bolts. Which Ford seems to feel are good enough for their modular performance engines.

Kurt

Jazzman

09-29-2016, 11:52 PM

SSNK4US

09-30-2016, 12:21 AM

Thank you....
I'm just a mechanical guy that looks at things extremely logical...
Can't wait to get mine ordered.

6t8dart

09-30-2016, 09:34 AM

Yes, I agree people above. ARP bolts are typically not torque to yield, and can be re-used several times. I would definitely give ARP a call, tell them the factory torque specs, and ask what the ARP spec is. I was told by an engine builder that you do not use factory torque specs on critical ARP bolts, ARP usually uses the same factory torque specs, but on internal engine fasteners, has their own procedure, and you also need their thread lube to get the proper reading.

M3ichael

09-30-2016, 10:33 AM

Lots of great information in this thread. I've learned so much already and slowly building my confidence to "Do or do not there is no try" at a MK4 Build.
Love the Star Wars quotes, huge fan I am.
Starting to think Edwardb is wise like Obi-Wan Kenobi and great source of information "Help me OBD1 Kenobi, your my only hope"

Jazzman

10-03-2016, 10:50 PM

Warning: the following brain freeze may prove to embarrass me! I admit it, I am stumped. I know exactly what I want to do with the fuel lines, but I can't figure out a combination of fittings and sources to get me from here to there. Here is where I am now:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59326&d=1475551794

Standard installation of fuel lines. these connections are right under the PS footbox. The upper one is the 1/4" return line, the lower is the 5/16" feed line. Both have the female/female adapters installed in preparation of attaching the next line. These could, of course, be removed if necessary to accommodate the correct fittings. Here is where I am going:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59329&d=1475551794

Standard issue Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator, -06AN fittings. My goal is to connect the 5/16" Feed line to this point on the pressure regulator, and I want a 90 degree male to female fitting coming immediately out of the regulator, here: (I want to immediately turn the feed line straight down.)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59328&d=1475551794

I want to connect the 1/4" return line to this point, straight connection, to a -06AN male fitting:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59327&d=1475551794

So here is what I think I need:
Feed Line:
5/16" flared female to -06AN female adapter, a length of braided stainless fuel line with straight male -06AN connectors on both ends, then a -06AN Female to -06AN Male 90 degree adapter.

Return line:
1/4" flared female to -06AN female adapter, a length of braided stainless fuel line with straight male -06AN connectors on both ends.

Feed Line from pressure regulator to engine:
A length of braided stainless fuel line with -06AN male end on one end, and no end at all on the other. At the end on the engine, I will have to use a hose clamp because the fuel rail is a smooth tube. Thankfully, this part will be covered by the plastic cover over the engine.

I have looked all over, and I can't seem to find the fittings necessary to make these connections. I looked all over Summit, and could not find what I need. I suspect it is because I don't know the right terminology. Please help! Where can I buy all this stuff to finish up my fuel lines? Thank you!!!

SSNK4US

10-03-2016, 11:45 PM

Looks like a job for Edwardb.... But you might want to take a look there ---> http://russellperformance.com
More of a complete line than summit would show.

Kurt

SSNK4US

10-03-2016, 11:47 PM

Also sounds like your terminology seems pretty good :)

wareaglescott

10-04-2016, 05:30 AM

The coyote install kit has the fitting you need that pushes onto the fuel rail.
Mark at Breeze really helped me out with -AN fittings on my power steering lines. He would be a good person to call.

I ordered the parts from summit in the ffr recommended parts list and these are what the fittings look like. I know you are wanting stainless hose so it won't be the same but might give you a little help.

While you are at it my pressure gauge is a real pain to read because it is behind the engine. You may want a fitting that would allow you to change the output angle on that. Of course part of my problem is I made a bracket that offsets it from the firewall about an inch so the coyote harness could run behind it. Just something to consider though. I wish I had. I may need to change it.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57620&d=1471471624

edwardb

10-04-2016, 05:44 AM

Is that a different regulator than you had before? I recall you mentioned in a PM you had a #13301, which uses 3/8 in. NPT fittings. That looks more like the #13129 that I used. If so, what you are calling -6AN fittings on the regulator aren't standard -6AN fittings. They're "-6AN O-ring" which are different. There aren't a ton of options for those specific fittings, and I recommend you stay with the Aeromotive branded ones. I just used their straight fitting #15606 which then provides a standard -6AN male connection to the regulator. Easy to adapt to. But they do have a 90 degree version #15689 you could use for your feed line as you requested. It should be easy enough to get -6AN fittings for the other end of your feed and return lines.

For your connection at the Coyote fuel rail, since you're using -6AN braided SS lines, check #21608 from Breeze. It's a Ham-Let SS Let-Lok compression fitting that goes right over the smooth fuel rail on the Coyote and provides a standard -6AN male connection. Works perfectly.

Jazzman

10-04-2016, 12:14 PM

I should have thought of Mark Breeze from the start! I just called him. He had everything I needed, was able to package it up and ship it today, even the price didn't require blood pressure medication! Thanks, Edwardb, for reminding me to call this trusted vendor.

Yes, that is a different regulator. After discussing the options, I decided to go with the one you have. It gives me more future upgrade possibilities and costs $20 less! I did order two of the straight fittings you mention and one of the 90 degree fittings from Aeromotive. Thanks for the heads up. I hope the new house is coming along nicely. We are going to need new shop photos once it is set up!!

Jazzman

10-05-2016, 03:21 AM

I am trying to get everything done that will be behind the motor when it is installed. I installed the 250A master fuse just below and to the left of the PDB.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59351&d=1475653809

I then had to figure out how to get the primary Battery positive line from the master cutoff switch that I installed in the trunk to the master fuse. I had previously routed the rear harness wires, the rear speaker wires, the Hot At All Times (HAAT) battery positive lead, and the main battery cable through two pieces of convolute tubing. However, it was still messy. I decided to pull both of those convolute tubing sets out and combine them into one line. All this stuff has to go into one tube:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59356&d=1475653812

I did not have any convolute tubing large enough to carry all those wires. However, the main battery cable that came with the Coyote Engine Harness Package (that I am not going to use in its original form anyway) is surrounded by 7/8" convolute tubing. So I spent about 30 minutes stripping out the battery cable from the tubing to create a piece the size I needed. After some additional work, everything is back in one tube. I have taped up the major stress points, but not the entire tube yet. I will do that just prior to permanently mounting the cable down the inside of the transmission tunnel. I am doing this just in case I have forgotten something that needs to go to the rear of the car.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59358&d=1475653813

At the other end of the battery cable, I had to attach a ringed terminal end that will be attached to the master fuse, left side. This tool was used to crimp the 4 gauge cable. (I borrowed it!! I had to strike it with a big hammer to create the compression crimp. Clearly I did not do this sitting on the tire, but I forgot to take a photo while it was sitting on the concrete floor!)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59354&d=1475653810

And this is what the crimp ends up looking like:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59355&d=1475653811

I then slid up the heat shrink covering and melted it into place. All done for that one. I have more to do, but I don't have any more unused cable end ring terminals. I will have to order those from DelCity. I am putting together a list of things I need from them.

I then split the cable that came with the starter to create the starter cable and the cable going from the master fuse to the PDB.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59360&d=1475653814

In this photo, the cable going left from the master fuse is the line the main power line to the starter. The starter signal wire is in there, but I haven't yet figured out where to connect it. That is a project for tomorrow night.

The cable currently pointing down from the right side of the master fuse is the cable that will feed the PDB. The other end is not hooked up because I don't have the ring terminals yet.

The large convolute cable that loops up from under the PDB is the end of the rear wiring harness, the HAAT line, and the rear speaker wires. I am going to create a hole for them to pass through the side of the DS footbox. I am waiting to do that until I figure out what all must pass through that hole.

RHITME03

10-05-2016, 10:23 AM

Jazzman

10-05-2016, 01:24 PM

The more I read about your build, the more inspired I am to attempt one of my own. While I wouldn't go after a flip-top, the attention to detail and documentation is commendable. Thank you for your contributions to the community. With that said, would be curious to see an all-in cost once this is completed. Nailing down a reliable budget target is going to be critical to getting my project off the ground.

Keep up the good work!

Dan

Thanks for the compliment, Dan! I am just trying to pass on what I have learned from so many of the other true experts on this forum. I am proud to say that I have stolen ideas from the very best! Whenever I can, I give credit where it is truly due.

There have been many discussions of cost before me. FFR is an extremely good product, and what they tell you about cost is true . . . up to a point. If you buy the complete kit, build it as designed in the manual, do not do any modifications, do not powder coat everything under the sun, use every last part and fitting provided, use a modest engine, use something other than the replica Hallibrand wheels, etc, etc, you can certainly do one of these things for less than I am. I knew going into this project that it was likely that this would be my one and only opportunity to do such a car, and I intentionally wanted the best of the best. Unless you have taken your blood pressure medication, I don't know that you want to know how much I have in my build thus far!! At the end of the project, I plan to post a truly complete, item by item, build cost list. I will give you a few numbers to think about. I am going to round up to the nearest grand just so you are not surprised too badly.

I upgraded a lot on the original order. I ordered the "20th Anniversary" package, but did not get the custom badging. Everything else is the upgraded 20th anniversary stuff: Stainless side pipes, 18"Hallibrands, IRS, upgraded Koni Shocks, Wilwood brakes all around, leather seats, a bunch of other stuff, it even included the IRS Center section. My "Complete Kit" cost right at $30k.

The Coyote engine/Tremec TKO-600 transmission package is not cheap. Think $12k Then you have to add Bell housing, clutch, starter, alternator, power steering pump (come on, you know you're going to add power steering!!), etc, and you are in for at least another $4-$5k. A more traditional pushrod engine can be had for somewhat less, but you can also spend as much or more.

There are certainly more expenses that I have not listed that you don't have to do, but I chose to: Powder coating, power steering, upgraded headers, I have lost track. Certainly the Fliptop alone added $1-$1.5K of costs which you won't experience.

All in, up to today, I have spent $53,545.81. I still have paint to go. Figure $6-$8K. With my flip top I am expecting the high side. I have plowed through the majority of the big costs, but the little ones can eat you alive. I still expect another $3-$4K in miscellaneous parts. I still have to get the new roll bars, the stereo, all the wiring and custom switches and keyless entry stuff, some more braided stainless hoses for the power steering and the radiator. I can't think of what else, but I am pretty sure there will be something else! All in I expect my cost to be right about $65,000. My wife is prepared for $70K. Beyond that I am sleeping in the car . . . or perhaps with the fishes!! This number does not factor in all the tool costs. I already had the vast majority of tools required, but I have spent some additional money on various custom tools I did not previously own. I also spent some money on some tools that you won't need if you don't do custom modifications, and some money on a few tools that I ended up not needing as much as I thought. I don't factor them in because I will use them for other projects as well.

I hope that these numbers don't scare you off. While I know I cannot sell the car for what I have in it, I have never done a project that I have had more pride it, I have never had so much fun, learned so much, and had such a positive experience. It even has given me the opportunity to get to know my neighbors. They come over to see what in the world I am building! It is truly a stress reliever, a way to clear my mind of the day's activities. I truly recommend it. I am now really worried about what I am going to do when I finish this build! Another car is not out of the question. Perhaps a 25th Anniversary model? :o

*** NOTE added 8/20/2017. Boy was I wrong on paint cost. I am already $10k in on the paint, and the final color coats are yet to be done. Project $15K for custom paint on a Flip Top. There is a lot more body work to be done to make it all flow together correctly.

WIS89

10-05-2016, 02:15 PM

Kevin -

She's looking great! I think your pricing guidance is solid, and provides an honest look at what these builds can cost, while offering the reality that choices can be made to cost less.

You have created a beautiful car, and the idea that someone could do similarly for your budget is solid information!

I still say you have great big brass ball bearings to do that flip top! I have really enjoyed your build thread.

Regards,

Steve

2bking

10-05-2016, 07:22 PM

Don't forget the premium top. It will make driving in the Arizonian sun doable. I can say sitting in mine with jeans on and the sun overhead feels like second degree burns are happening.

Jazzman

10-05-2016, 09:25 PM

You are right King! I'm getting way too close to sleeping with the fishes now!!

RHITME03

10-07-2016, 07:56 AM

I hope that these numbers don't scare you off. While I know I cannot sell the car for what I have in it, I have never done a project that I have had more pride it, I have never had so much fun, learned so much, and had such a positive experience. It even has given me the opportunity to get to know my neighbors. They come over to see what in the world I am building! It is truly a stress reliever, a way to clear my mind of the day's activities. I truly recommend it. I am now really worried about what I am going to do when I finish this build! Another car is not out of the question. Perhaps a 25th Anniversary model? :o

Jazzman-

Thank you for the blunt, honest, cost assessment. As I started planning my build (I think 25th Anniversary is probably the right time frame), My back of napkin quickly came to $45-55k... The miscellaneous parts is an area where I definitely missed. I completely get the "Only going to do it once" mentality. Also with the time required to build, I can't imagine cutting corners for the sake of a few thousand dollars.

With all that said, I'm going to head back to the sidelines and watch completion of your build.

Best of luck, be safe, and have fun.

Dan

Jazzman

10-07-2016, 12:50 PM

With all that said, I'm going to head back to the sidelines and watch completion of your build.

Dan

Dan, I sure hope I didn't scare you off. I was fearful that I might. Your choices will certainly affect what your final cost is. The more knowledgeable you are, the more you can save costs. The more work you do yourself, the more you will save as well. One big cost saver is to do all your Powdercoating at one time. I didn't, and have spent far too much on it.

I wish you the very best of luck In your decision. I really hope you get to do one. It is a great experience.

SSNK4US

10-09-2016, 04:04 PM

Ok some of my lurking .02 cents on this matter....
I think some of the beauty of FFR is you can go as big and bold as you want, or as basic and budget as you want. Either way you get an extremely safe and well engineered chassis. Basic kit is $12,990... You can find donor mustangs really cheap. Reading about all kinds of builds on different forums, some people don't even powder coat any of the panels. A little engine degreaser on the engine and their favorite rattle can color and in goes the engine. The levels are endless....
Some people build them in record time.... Some take years.... If you take the long road, that can also help you absorb some of the bigger costs if you go that route.....

Don't give up on the dream Dan
There are endless options....

Kurt

Jazzman

10-09-2016, 11:55 PM

I couldn't have said it better myself, Kurt. I fully agree! Don't give up the dream Dan!!

Stork

10-10-2016, 12:26 AM

This last little bit on cost, for those of use who are looking at numbers, but yet to pull the trigger, has been very useful. It is about what I am beginning to budget for. Well maybe your numbers are a little higher than my eventual build. :) Thanks!

SSNK4US

10-10-2016, 05:09 PM

Hay Stork, I'm so jealous you got to drive David's cars!!! I'm always looking at numbers... And have yet to pull the trigger. But we are collecting special tools and small things we'll need in the future, it's like making payments lol Baby steps.... My wife said to start collecting little special things. Reading builds and knowing where we're gonna go on some things... Eastwood tubing flarer etc. etc. She even had us order our license plate lol it's like a goal.... Hang on the wall and see everyday. I'm also a big guy, 6'4"-5"? 280 cough 5 cough ish lol You and David have really set my mind at ease about fitting.... Thanks to both of you for that :D
Kurt

Jazzman

10-10-2016, 05:39 PM

I'm also a big guy, 6'4"-5"? 280 cough 5 cough ish lol You and David have really set my mind at ease about fitting.... Thanks to both of you for that :D
Kurt

Yeah, I am "280 cough 5 cough ish" and then some. Like everything else, we fit, tightly!! :)

FYI for those of you in the greater Arizona/SoCal area (or anyplace else, I suppose, if you are planning a trip to AZ!). I am getting close to having to make a decision about what to do with my frame dolly. It served me well for the past year, but now is out from under the car. I am either going to have to give it away or keep if for my next build. SHHHH!! Don't tell my wife I said that!! "Of course not, dear, there is NO NEXT Build", nudge, nudge, wink, wink, Bob's your Uncle! If you are soon going to be starting a build, I might be willing to make you a present of it, and perhaps the body buck as well, as soon as I am sure I am done with both of them. PM me if you might be interested.

RHITME03

10-11-2016, 07:02 AM

You did t scare me off, rather the opposite. I am somewhat hopeful that in the next 2-3-5 years the salvage market for IRS components becomes more reasonable. Having a realistic budget and build schedule, as well as two girls old enough to remember/enjoy the experience is key to getting started.

Keep up the good work.

Straversi

10-11-2016, 09:05 AM

Thank you very much for the clutch installation discussion. Saved me a ton of research and frustration. Much appreciated.

Jazzman

10-13-2016, 02:38 AM

Two trips to San Diego to visit my son and his fiancée, a few very busy work days, and it is easy to get a long way behind on these posts. I have had a bit of time here and there to get a few things done. Mostly it has been filled with preparing to continue on the wiring, ordering a whole bunch of small parts, and waiting for them to arrive. So here are the highlights of what little I have gotten done over the past couple of weeks.

The fuel pressure regulator is in. I got the various connectors to screw into the regulator, and finally had time to install it. Because I had seen several people who had installed it low, and because I am not putting in a heater, I decided to attach mine a bit higher to the firewall. I placed it so that the primary fuel inlet line will go straight down just along the PS footbox wall.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59643&d=1476343137

To stiffen and strengthen the area that it was being attached, I used extra long rivets, and installed a left over piece of sheet aluminum on the inside of the firewall. It seems very solid.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59642&d=1476343136

Braided Stainless -6AN fuel grade hoses and end fittings are on order from Breeze, but have not yet arrived.

I received the Coyote engine mount 3/8" spacers from FFR. I hope you got these with your kit. They were not yet in production when I got my kit, so getting them cost me $135, but I certainly couldn't have made them myself without a lot of unnecessary work. They seem well made, but lets face it, they are nothing put carefully cut pieces of 3/8" sheet steel, not much to screw up here! I removed the engine mounts from the engine. I was going to have to do this anyway in order to set the engine down, extend the arm of the shop crane, and raise the engine up again to install it in the car. To put the engine on a temporary stand to do this required the engine mounts to go, so this worked out fine. The process of removing the factory bolts, putting the spacers in place, and installing the supplied bolts was quite straight forward.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59644&d=1476343137

A little pounding with a hammer to remove these original bolts.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59645&d=1476343138

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59646&d=1476343139

Lay the spacers in, line it all back up, cinch up the longer (provided) bolts. Easy peasy.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59647&d=1476343139

Jazzman

10-13-2016, 03:07 AM

In this photo you will notice there are two major cables running along the lower frame rail. The larger one is the main line from the PDB to the PCM (Plugs T & U for those of you who are trying to follow along in your Ford Performance Coyote Installation Manual), and the smaller one is the set of wires from Takeout BB that goes all the way around to the DS of the engine to connect to the alternator, the Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF) and the Intercooler connector for super charger (Not going to be needing that one I think!!).

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59028&d=1474872991

The Ford instructions say to go around the engine with takeout BB, but I am trying to hide as many wires as I can. I want to take Takeout BB through the PS access hole through the firewall, across the area behind the dashboard, and then come out wherever necessary to hook these wires to their respective locations. Well, the anal retentive in me can't stand having two looms going in the same direction when only one is really necessary. SOOOOO . . . It is surgery time on both cables. BB has got to go. Well, more accurately, it has to go somewhere else! I opened up both the main cable and Takeout BB to see what was really going on. That took a lot of time because each one had to be very carefully opened up, and Ford used something like 60 miles of tape around those cables. After opening up everything I discovered what I suspected. Four of the wires in BB are coming from the PDB, and don't need to go all the way to the end only to turn right around and come back to the firewall again. Two reds, a green, and a black needed to be pulled out of the main cable set.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59648&d=1476343140

The other four wires, two blues, a purple, and a yellow, are coming from the PCM, and needed to be consolidated into the large main cable.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59649&d=1476343141

Four wires into the large wire loom, four wires out of the large wire loom, no problem. Just slow and methodical to be sure not to nick or crimp anything. After I had the four out and four back into the main loom all the way back to the corner of the firewall, I created a new cutout for these same 8 wires that were in BB, but now takeout BB is right by the hole in the PS of the firewall.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59652&d=1476343143

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59653&d=1476343143

The wire bundles inside the looms are taped together for organization, but the external wire loom is only taped in a few key places to keep it from moving. I will ultimately wrap everything again, but for now I am leaving it accessible in case I need to add some wires, or perhaps correct a mistake (?). No, No mistakes on the wiring. I hope . . .

Jazzman

10-13-2016, 03:37 AM

My KRC Power Steering pump kit arrived today. I wanted to get that on the engine and out of my way right away. I achieved partial success. Thank you's to EdwardB and BansheeKev for their write ups on installing this system. Without their help, it would have taken me a lot longer to figure out how to install this thing. The KRC product looks top notch. (I only wish it was polished instead of black, but that's just me!) The KRC installation instructions are almost non-existent! Yes there is a couple of pages of good info, but nothing about how to install the various bolts and spacers. It's not too difficult a puzzle, but it can waste some time if you don't know for sure. EdwardB did a great write-up in his thread, post #151. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?18591-EdwardBs-Mk4-8674-20th-Anniversary-Build/page4 I will add only my thoughts that he has not already addressed in his thread.

First, take off the serpentine belt and remove the pulley from the water pump. (Yes, that serpentine belt that you installed a few weeks ago when you got your alternator. At least you are getting good at it now!!)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59657&d=1476343146

remove the three bolts from the holes that EdwardB Shows so clearly in his post. You need to install the main support bracket for the pump, and to do this you have three long black bolts, threw washers, and three aluminum spacers that look the same length. However, upon taking a closer look you determine that one of these spacers is just slightly longer than the other two.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59658&d=1476343147

Set the one long spacer aside. This one is installed last and goes at the pointed left end of the pump bracket.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59654&d=1476343144

Be smarter than I was. Slide the silver nut inside the channel on the back of the pump bracket before you attach the bracket to the engine block. (Don't ask!!)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59659&d=1476343148

Install the top bolt through the bracket, through one of the two shorter spacers, then screw it loosely into the block. Yes, I used blue Loctite on them. Yes, I have been called obsessive before. Yes, I think you should too.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59661&d=1476343149

Install the other two mounting bolts in similar fashion. The longer aluminum spacer should be used at the far left end of the bracket.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59662&d=1476343150

Find the replacement pulley for the water pump, the one with two places for belts to ride. There is a aluminum ferrule that needs to be installed in the center hold to match up with the shape of the end of the water pump. However, there is no instruction as to whether you put it in from the front or the back. After much study and testing, I can now confirm that you should install it from the back. No hammer required, just a strong pair of hands.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59663&d=1476343150

Put your primary serpentine belt back on. If you are like me, I had to refresh my memory what the pattern was for this belt.

Jazzman

10-13-2016, 04:12 AM

Now you can install the pump on the bracket. My kit came with two more spacers, longer than the others but much more narrow. The top bolt screws into the top hole in the bracket, and the lower bolt screws into the nut you installed in the chanel on the back of the bracket. By doing the mounting this way, the pump can pivot to take up tension in the small belt that will drive the pump.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59664&d=1476343151

That blue item at the top of the pump is the flow valve. One of the benefits of this pump is you can choose how much assist you want, and change it just by changing this valve. Apperatlyl they are about $20 each. It is generally accepted that the #4 valve with a flow rate of 1.66 GPH is the most appropriate for these cars. I did not, however, glean that finer piece of information from the other posts on the subject until today, well after it would have been helpful. My pump came with the following valve:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59656&d=1476343146

2.85 GPH is going to be waaay too much boost. However, because I was not aware of the adjustability of this pump and it's interchangeable flow valves, I had already purchased an adjustable Heidts Valve. Now I have a decision to make. Do I keep the adjustability of the Heidts valve in the system, (the flexibility option) and accept the inherent additional connections that might leak, or do I try to return the Heidts valve and buy a #4 flow valve? (The cost saving option.) I am not sure how Summit is on returns.

Tonight I went back to the wiring just for a bit. I eliminated almost 30 inches of wire from the very long battery feed from the RF fuse panel and made just a short jump up to the primary Bus Bar. These three wires are "Battery FD", "Starter Sol", and a third, larger wire that I can't read! (FYI, I ordered three of these bus bars from Amazon, and each one was returned because they did not come with the promised plastic cover. I called Blue Sea Systems (the manufacturer of the bus bar) and asked them to send me two plastic covers. They were happy to send them out.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59665&d=1476343152

I still don't know what to do with the additional blue wire in this four wire set. it says "start Sol" on it. I'll find it sooner or later.

I received my package of fuel lines and fittings from Mark Breeze a couple of days ago. Installing the fittings takes just a bit of learning, but it's certainly not hard. Looks like a good system. I just realized I dont' have photos of those lines, so I will add them on a future post. One minor problem. Mark provided the following adapter to go from the stock FFR fuel lines to the -6AN hoses and fittings.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59666&d=1476343153

the -6AN side will work perfectly. It is the other end that concerns me. It is a compression fitting rather than a flared fitting. Mark's suggestion was that I use a tubing cutter to cut off the very end of the stock line, then attach these compression couplers. I can do that, but it will require drilling out the rivets that hold the fuel lines all the way back to the rear end to get enough room to spin a tubing cutter around the fuel lines. Does anyone know of an adapter that will go from the 1/4" or 5/16" flared end of the fuel lines and adapt to the male side of a -6AN fitting?

EDIT -- Here is a photo of the braided stainless lines installed, at least at the pressure regulator end.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59704&d=1476429411

wareaglescott

10-13-2016, 04:29 AM

Nice work Kevin.
For your planing on the routing and length of the maf sensor plug wires be aware that the sensor needs to be positioned on the front side of the 4" tube. You will need to take the cable over or under the tube to reach around to the plug it point. I ran mine without realizing this and barely had enough length because I thought I would plug it into the tube on the side closest to the driver. Just a heads up.
I am in a hotel on layover all day today. I will look back through all the messages and see if I can find the definitive answer on that blue wire.

Jazzman

10-13-2016, 12:11 PM

Nice work Kevin.
For your planing on the routing and length of the maf sensor plug wires be aware that the sensor needs to be positioned on the front side of the 4" tube.

Ok, I'll bite. Since the MAF sensor is going into a tube, and the tube is filled with moving air, what difference does it make if the sensor is on the front or the back of the tube? How does it know?

wareaglescott

10-13-2016, 12:27 PM

Ok, I'll bite. Since the MAF sensor is going into a tube, and the tube is filled with moving air, what difference does it make if the sensor is on the front or the back of the tube? How does it know?

Cant say for sure but I received multiple pieces of feedback and read in a few places that is where it works the best. May have something to do with the airflow characteristics in the tube. On the front of the tube the air will have further to go around the bend. Bernoulli's principle and all that.....

Or are you familiar with the term PFM? We use that a lot in aviataion;)

Jazzman

10-13-2016, 12:49 PM

Or are you familiar with the term PFM? We use that a lot in aviation;)

Since I pretty sure "Pulse Frequency Modulation" may not be applicable, It must mean "Pure Freaking Magic"! Or as my son says, "it is because . . . reasons!".

2bking

10-13-2016, 02:45 PM

The bottom line is no one really knows where the best location is except those with the exact same setup and have done experiments to determine where the average airflow is sensed in the most critical operation of the engine. Mine is toward the back side and seems to work just fine but it hasn't had a tune or been on a dyno. I'm coming up on 3,000 miles and haven't had a bit of trouble with the performance of the engine while averaging about 18 mpg with 3.55 rear gears and the .64 fifth gear.

Jazzman

10-14-2016, 01:31 AM

I mounted the PCM (Power Control Module) in a different place than FFR for a couple of reasons. First, with the flip top, I create additional useable space at the front corners of the engine compartment, and second, I really didn't like it being right in the main view when you open the hood. It just didn't look good. So I chose to put it on the inside of the PS "F" panel.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59687&d=1476425452

The Ford Coyote wiring harness has ample wire to reach this location with the primary cable, so I think this will look a bit better. I attached it at the top temporarily with two bolts, but I am going to go buy some nicer button head bolts just because it will look better. I also did not have a bolt the right size for the lower attachment point. Because of the bend in the "F" Panel, I will have to put in a 1/4" spacer between the panel and the back of the PCM.

I turned my attention back to Takeout BB, the one that has the wires for the Alternator, the MAF sensor, and the Intercooler Pump connector. It is this last one, the Intercooler, that is going to be unnecessary to me. It is only needed if you are going to add a Supercharger, and I am not go to do this.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59688&d=1476425453

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59689&d=1476425454

Since I already had opened up the entire Takeout BB line, it was easy to strip back the black and red wires that go to the Intercooler all the way back to the point where Takeout BB separates from the main harness set just inside the access hole through the PS of the Firewall. After carefully following the wires three times to be sure I did not cut out the wrong ones, I clipped these two wires, leaving just enough to seal the ends up.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59690&d=1476425455

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59691&d=1476425456

I curled over the end of each wire, and then put a piece of heat shrink tubing over it to seal that wire. Then I but both wires together with yet one more piece of heat shrink tape to completely seal it off, and clearly mark the pair just in case they are needed in the future.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59692&d=1476425457

The process of eliminating the wires for the intercooler removed at least nine feet of wire from behind the firewall.

Jazzman

10-14-2016, 02:03 AM

Take out CCA is very near the main harness cable that leads from the PDB to the PCM. Takeout CCA is the one that has wires sets for four different items: The A/C Pressure wires, the A/C Clutch wires, a blunt-cut orange wire which will be routed to the cooling fan, and the Starter Lead Eyelet. After a great deal of thought and many changes of mind, I have finally decided the cost and complexity of Air Conditioning in this car is just not worth the effort. (I may live to regret that decision!!) One of the major factors in this decision is the reality that the primary producer of an AC system that is supposed to fit into the car no longer manufactures it. But I did want to retain the ability to go back and retrofit an AC system if I decide I have to have it. I decided to cut out the two leads that would go to the AC system, but leave nice, long, wires easily accessible within the primary harness. I carefully removed all the tape and wire loom from these two leads:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59694&d=1476425458

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59697&d=1476425460

The AC Clutch wires are a pair of one black and one Purple wires.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59695&d=1476425459

The AC Pressure wires are a trio, one grey, one yellow, and one yellow/purple.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59698&d=1476425461

I cut each of these wires leaving about 10" of wire attached to the plug end. I packaged up these two plugs, and marked the ziplock bag "Do Not Discard, AC Pressure and Clutch wires". I filed them away with the many other extra parts that I am accumulating. I sealed off the ends of each wire with a heat shrink tube, then grouped each set together and terminated the complete set with one more piece of heat shrink tube. I laid each wire set next to the main wiring harness to/from the PCM. Since the wires came from opposite directions, it was rather easy to lay them both into the harness set. I reopened the main wiring harness from Takeout AA back toward the PDB for about 24". (I am glad I left the main harness accessible, but I sure hope I don't have to go into this again!!) I then re-covered all the wires with the loom, this time including the AC wires hidden along the side of the main harness, but inside the loom.

While I was inside the main harness, I moved the point that the Starter lead Eyelet exits the loom. It was coming from the direction of the PDM, thus is was easy to just pull it out of the loom back to the point where it exits just forward of the front edge of the PS Footbox. This creates more wire which will be trimmed once the engine and starter are in place. It also means the this wire and loom can be run down the side or corner of the PS footbox. I would love to hide this wire, but at least I can make is less obvious.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59701&d=1476425463

I also move the exit point for the blunt-cut orange wire that will be connected to the cooling fan. This wire was already seemingly long enough, but this minor change added a few more useable inches in the wire. For now, this orange wire is loose, awaiting the installation of the radiator and fan.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59703&d=1476428893

This area of the harness is cleaned up rather nicely. Not quite done, but a big improvement.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59705&d=1476429412

wareaglescott

10-14-2016, 04:50 AM

Nice work. If you choose to mount the engine ground to that engine mount in the last picture go ahead and grind the powder coat now before the engine is in the way. Makes it that much easier. The hole that is already in the side of it made for a nice location.

Jazzman

10-15-2016, 02:02 AM

I finally have all the parts to finish the fuel lines all the way to the regulator. The adapters that Mark at Breeze sent me required that I cut off the flared ends of the two hard fuel lines. I had to take a couple of days to decide if I wanted to go that route. I really couldn't figure out how else to do it, so out comes the tubing cutter. It also meant that I had to remove the previously installed clamps that held the hard lines in place.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59715&d=1476513908

it was a very uncomfortable process working under the car now that it is on the ground. I ended up lifting the front on the motorcycle lift to give me a bit more room to work. The Breeze fitting really did go on easily. I previously attached the hose to the adapter so that I would only have to hook up one item on each line under the car. Everything else would be inside the engine compartment. Here is how the fittings ended up.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59716&d=1476513909

I put 1/2" vinyl coated loom clamps around the hoses, and reinstalled the clamps around the hard lines. After installing the clamps in front of the adapters, I realized that I should have put the clamps right at the point where the braided stainless line goes around the edge of the PS footbox. This would protect the braided line from abrasion. So I added a second set of clamps only 2" away. Oh well, that line is not going anywhere!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59717&d=1476513910

This is what the final installation looks like:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59718&d=1476513910

Jazzman

10-17-2016, 12:00 AM

Working on wiring again. I made some slow progress, some revelations, and then a big epiphany. As you read my thread, keep in mind that I am NOT using the traditional FFR wiring scheme using only the RF harness. I am biasing my wiring toward the Coyote Wiring harness. I am mirroring the wiring scheme developed by EdwardB that merges the two wiring harnesses. Loosely speaking, the Coyote harness is responsible for everything in the engine compartment, and the RF harness is responsible for everything outside of the engine compartment. I like the fact that by doing this, all of Ford's built in controls and features will work in harmony as they were designed to do. I am also doing a lot of wire loom stripping and redesign to clean up the appearance of the wire harnesses. I don't know that you have to do all this, but I am being obsessive about appearance and functionality.

Lets start with the big epiphany first, because it had significant impact on all the work I did, and re-did, this weekend. Here is a photo of the engine compartment before the epiphany. What is wrong with this picture?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59357&d=1475653813

The red cable coming from the transmission tunnel terminating at the left side of the 250A Fuse is the end of the Battery positive line coming from the SWITCHED side of the Master Disconnect switch. The cable going left and down is the starter cable. The problem is this: The line going to the left side of the Master fuse should be UNSWITCHED, HAAT (Hot At All Times), but I don't have one of those in the Engine compartment. The starter cable should be coming from the SWITCHED side of the master disconnect, but it should not be on the same terminal as the Master Fuse. The Ford Coyote instructions are very clear that the power feed to the PDB must be HAAT. I came to the realization that I need two Cables coming from the Master Cutoff Switch, one Switched and one UNSwitched.

That realization required that I undo quite of bit of what I had already done. I had to disconnect, unhook, and open up the wire loom around the entire cable set going down the transmission tunnel to the rear of the car. This took quite a bit of time, but since I had been here before, I knew what to expect. To gain access, I had to remove the Master Disconnect switch from the trunk floor. As I was doing this I discovered an unexpected problem: the main power cable from the Battery Positive to the Master disconnect was so loose that the cable came out of the ring terminal! Surprisingly this was not one that I had made up. It came that way. The shrink wrap was holding it together. I decided I would make up a new cable and replace it entirely. I made a new cable, used the impact tool to crimp the end on the #4 cable, then soldered the connection. This one is not coming apart!

I used the #4 cable provided by Ford with the Coyote Wiring harness as the cable for my new Unswitched positive cable. It was long enough, the right size, and already had a Ford factory installed ring terminal on both ends. I attached the cables to the master disconnect, recovered everything with wire loom, and re-taped everything again. Because it is all black with wire loom, because it is all in shadowy areas, there really isn't much to see. It looks just like it did before, except where it comes out at the front of the transmission tunnel.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59792&d=1476673821

Now you can see the UNSwitched cable from the master disconnect terminating on the left side of the Master Fuse. The longer red cable without a terminal end that is looping around is the Switched cable. I have a single terminal Stud on order. When it arrives, this cable will be will be attached to the Single Terminal Stud, and the cable to the starter will also be attached to that same stud. I will also attach the "Alternator" cable from the RF harness to this same Switched Power Terminal Stud. By doing this, when the Master Disconnect Switch is turned off, power will still go to the PDB, but it will not go to the Starter or the RF harness, including most of the dashboard. (The obvious exception would be the clock and the GPS powered Speedo, which will be on a HAAT UNswitched Circuit.

I also confirmed that the center loom in the photo pointing straight down with the plug on the end is the secondary power for the PDB. (I'm not clear on why Ford needs it, but I will oblige. I cut the plug off (Not using that from the Coyote harness). The red wire will be attached on the fused side (the right side) of the master fuse, the same location that the feed line for the front terminal of the PDB comes off. The black line is another dedicated ground. It will be shortened, and then I will create a special grounding location just for it on the underside of the 2" square frame member that the PDB is attached to. This should provide a sure ground for this important piece of the power puzzle.

Jazzman

10-17-2016, 12:01 AM

Here is the wires from the RF that are marked "Alternator". The small one is marked "ALT IGN", the larger two into the larger plug are simply marked "Alternator".

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59720&d=1476513911

Because this line is 4-5 feet longer than I think is necessary, I stripped back all the loom around this line all the way to it's base.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59793&d=1476673821

I discovered there are not really two lines going to the Alternator, there is only one, "Y"ed about 10" from the plug.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59795&d=1476673821

I am going to run this single power cable all the way to the switched power cable from the Master disconnect.

I confirmed that using this wiring scheme, which rely's on Ford's Coyote wiring system for engine functions, The blue wire in the RF harness marked "Start Sol" can be eliminated.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59791&d=1476673821

I needed to create an access hole through the inside wall of the DS footbox to allow a number of wires and the clutch Hydraulic line to pass between the engine compartment and the inside of the DS footbox. Thank God for the inventor of the RivetNut! I was able to just unscrew the PDB from its installed location to gain access to the location for the hole.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59790&d=1476673821

Ford was kind enough to provide two 2" rubber grommets to protect the various wires. The first was already installed on the main harness loom just to the left of the PDB, but the second one was unused. I drilled a 2" hole in the side of the DS footbox. Through this hole will pass a lot of stuff: The rear harness cables from the RF harness will go in, the sender wires from the Coyote harness will go out, The "Alternator" cable from the RF harness will go out to the Switched power stud, a similar unswitched cable will come back in from to feed power to a HAAT bus bar behind the dash, and the hydraulic line from the clutch pedal to the slave unit on the transmission will go out. This should make that area an even more busy place!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59789&d=1476673821

Jazzman

10-18-2016, 04:26 PM

The ANL fuse block that I had ordered from DelCity did not come in the primary shipment. I had just about decided that they had forgotten to send it when it showed up on my doorstep.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59916&d=1476824735

Installation was quick and easy, although I could not use rivets to attach it. I went ahead and used sheet metal screws for this. I will keep an eye on it to see if it begins to come loose, but it seems quite solid.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59917&d=1476824736

The 150A fuse separating the feed from the Alternator from the RF harness and the Coyote PCM and PDB has two distinct ends. It is sort of hard to see in the photo, but one side is marked "Ignition" and the other is marked "Protected. The feed line from the Alternator to this 150a fuse will be attached to the lower stud of this bus bar. Because I consider the alternator to be the "Hot"/"ignition" side, and I am trying to "protect" the RF harness, I installed the fuse with the opening at the end to the bottom stud, and the one that has a sideways opening will be attached to the top of the fuse block.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59918&d=1476824736

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59919&d=1476824737

Included with the fuse and block from DelCity was the remaining supply of cable terminals. I had been waiting for cable ends with a 90 degree bend in them. I found that the 90 degree terminal was just a bit too short to fit over the front stud on the PDB. I relieved it by opening the terminal to about a 75 degree angle. Now it fits fine.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59920&d=1476824738

I made the 3" long jumper to go from the top stud of the Alternator fuse to the switched buss bar. A piece of left over cable, a 1/4" ring terminal, a bit of solder and shrink wrap, and it is ready to go.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59921&d=1476824739

Here you can see it connected. (Got my focus point a bit off, sorry!)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59922&d=1476824740

Though not installed yet, the main power cable from the Alternator to the Alternator fuse will be attached to the lower stud on this fuse block.

Jazzman

10-18-2016, 04:53 PM

I think I am glad that the area where all these cables come together is mostly hidden behind the engine below the firewall. It has become very busy in this area. I found that Ford had kindly provided me a single stud terminal point. (I will have to return the one I just ordered.)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59923&d=1476824740

I installed it to the left of the main fuse block. Then I started attaching all the cables where they needed to go. There is so much movement there, it is beginning to look like a freeway interchange! On the photo, below, I decided to number the runs to make it clearer what is going on:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59928&d=1476824746

1. Main UNSwitched cable from the master cutoff switch in the trunk.
2. Main Switched cable from the master cutoff switch in the trunk.
3. Starter cable from the Switched Terminal stud down to the Starter. (When the master cutoff switch is turned off, there is no power to the starter cable.)
4. Secondary power cable to the PCM and PDB. This single wire branches off the bottom of the main Coyote wire harness and is attached to the switched side (right side) of the 250A Master fuse. (This will remain HAAT as long as there is a battery in the car. This is connected in the photo, but I am leaving it disconnected during the wiring phase so as not to accidentally fry the PDB or the PCM!) There is a small black wire coming off of this same point going left. This is a dedicated ground wire for the PCM/PDB. I attached it on the underside of the 2" frame member where it will not be seen.
5. the "Alternator" cable from the RF harness that goes back to feed positive power to the RF fuse panel and the Switched Fuse Panel. This is attached to the Switched terminal stud. (Master Cutoff switch turned off, no power to the RF harness.)
6. HAAT cable feeding power to the new HAAT Bus Bar (photo to follow) This power will remain on regardless of Master Cutoff switch position. It will feed the GPS Speedometer memory, the clock, the USB plugs, etc.
7. Main #4 Power cable to feed power to the PDB. (This is connected in the photo, but I am leaving it disconnected during the wiring phase so as no to accidentally fry the PDB or the PCM!)
8. Rear wiring harness going up to the opening and grommet in the sidewall of the DS footbox.

Item #6 referenced a new HAAT bus bar. Amazon screwed up by the numbers on these bus bars, and, long story short, I ended up with two of them for free. I did have to call Blue Sea Systems to have them send the plastic isolation covers, but they sent them for free, so all is good. I decided to go ahead and use the second bar just to make it easier for me to identify and service each circuit.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59926&d=1476824743

edwardb

10-19-2016, 06:25 AM

Regarding your #6 (HAAT bus bar) for you and others reading this thread, you are aware the Coyote pigtail harness has a HAAT connection available? That is what I used for the clock, GPS, etc. Advantages are it's routed inside the cockpit already from the Coyote harness that has to be there. Plus 1already fused in the PDB. Your approach will certainly work. But there is another option.

Jazzman

11-03-2016, 03:16 AM

Aloha, Friends! For the past two weeks, I have had the joy of going to the garden Isle of Kauai, Hawaii. I decided that my long-suffering and extremely wonderful bride had waited long enough to return to one of our favorite places. The opportunity arose to go on relatively short notice, and we decided to jump at it. Here is just one of the photos I took of the amazing views that we enjoyed:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60415&d=1478157845

We had a wonderful time. Most of it was spent enjoying the many opportunities in paradise, but we did get some rain while we were there, so I used the down time to order parts and re-read build threads. There is an amazing amount of information that I had forgotten. It actually was a lot of fun re-reading some of my favorite threads. Even now, I am gleaning new information.

You may remember that about a month ago I returned the Quicktime Bell housing that had been purchased with my engine because it turns out that I must use #6081 because the flange is smaller and fits correctly. I was told, "no problem, we will get the correct one for you". I had expected to wait a week or so to get then new one, but one week stretched into two. When I still did not have it before we were leaving for vacation, I told the vendor that I must have it on 10/31 or I would expect a refund. He said "No problem, we will have it by then". (You already know where this is going.) I arrived Monday to pick it up, and no, he still did not have it, in fact he had not even returned the incorrect item. Long story short, it got rather heated. I finally asked him to call the manufacturer so I could find out what the holdup was. It took a few phone calls, but we finally got through to a person that would take action and get this problem fixed. So theoretically I should have the correct bell housing by the beginning of next week. I am not holding my breath . . . (I am also no longer recommending this vendor.) A month is simply too long to have to wait for a replacement part.

Once I had recovered from two weeks away from the office, I was finally able to get back to the wiring process. It took me quite a while to figure out where I had stopped. I am still re-adjusting where the wire bundles separate out. I returned to the front wiring harness. The PS light wires separated from the DS light wires right in the middle of where the radiator will be. I unbundled the front harness and carefully moved the separation point to the DS. I had to cut and splice several of the wires in order to move the separation point. I am finding that the crimp and shrink butt connectors I ordered work very well.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60405&d=1478157566

While I will not be using the wires for the fan and the fan thermostat, I am leaving them in the harness because I am going to use them for different purposes. The larger fan wire will be used for the Tangent driving lights that I have yet to order, and the Fan Thermo wire will be used to feed the LED lights that will be mounted inside the engine compartment. I am still researching to determine it the wires are adequate size for these loads. Because of this I have not yet closed up all the convolute covering.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60413&d=1478157579

I realized after it was all done and put back together that I had forgotten to include a wire for the PS engine compartment lights going over to the PS. So I will have to open it up again. Oh well, one more item for the list.

Jazzman

11-03-2016, 03:41 AM

Tonight I continued trying to figure out what the second wire going to the starter is connected to. In all my research, there are two wires going to the starter: the large 12 volt #4 cable carrying power directly from the battery, and a smaller wire that signals the starter to start. My problem was I couldn't figure out where the other end of this starter signal wire was connected. After an inordinately long period of time re-reading all the wiring notes, emails, instructions, and other info I could fine, I finally was reminded that the signal wire is a blue wire that comes out of the Coyote wiring harness. I know I have seen and moved that wire a dozen times, but it didn't sink in until now. I finally realized I didn't need the wire I had put inside the convolute with the battery cable. I removed that wire, then realized that it would be much cleaner if I moved the location of where this starter signal wire exits the primary Coyote convolute cable. This blue wire is the starter signal wire. I moved it back in the harness so that it exits just above where the battery cable goes down to the starter.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60414&d=1478157580

Once I had decided to open up this wiring harness again, I re-evaluated the harness that I had previously routed inside firewall behind the dash. Remember this take out:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59652&d=1476343143

I decided I could move it back even further toward the center of the firewall and take it out behind the engine. After stripping the main cable all the way back to the PDB, I re-taped up the harness and ended up with this configuration. First, this takeout has been eliminated at that location:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60409&d=1478157572

Now all the wires for the MAF sensor and the Alternator signal wire exit the main harness just to the PS of the access hole and grommet through the firewall. Once the engine is in, I will be able trim these two sets of wires to fit over the top of the engine underneath the engine cover.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60411&d=1478157578

I think this particular section of harness reconstruction is about done. I hope so, because I went ahead and wrapped all the convolute in the engine bay with tape and mounted the wire harness clamps to hold it in place.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60408&d=1478157568

I hope I don't come to regret that decision!!

wareaglescott

11-03-2016, 04:48 AM

Welcome home and glad to see you back at it. Can't believe they hadn't even returned the bellhousing yet and got your replacement. I would have been hot as well.
While you are looking at wire locations I had one extra pop up at the end you may want to think about. The wire for the GPS antenna for the speedo needs to go somewhere. Look in your gauge box. The GPS antenna is about 1 1/2" square and magnetic. I ended up placing it on the top of the PS windshield mounting location and running the wire through the hole in the 2nd picture of your last post. Not sure if that area would be visible with the flip top so just wanted to give you a heads up.

edwardb

11-03-2016, 05:55 AM

Welcome back! Tough duty in Hawaii. :cool: Three quick points based on your recent wiring posts. If you decide to go with the Tangent driving lights, and you use the light fixtures provided, you actually need two power wires. The unused RF fan wire would be more than adequate for the higher capacity bulbs. Good idea. You'll need a second wire if you want to separately light the smaller bulbs in the fixtures. I'm not quite understanding your description of the starter wires. If you're using the Coyote harness, PDB, PCM, etc. to control the start process, you only need the pictured Coyote Starter Lead (the labeled one in the braided insulation) and the +12V large battery lead. That's it. The blue wire pictured, I assume from the RF harness, is not used. That entire RF leg, from the ignition switch and going through the clutch safety switch, is not used if the Coyote is controlling the start. Finally, looks like you're taking the front harness across the top of the radiator area? Maybe that's because of your tilt front mod? Usually that leg goes across the bottom of the radiator and the harness split is in the right place. Wiring is fun, isn't it? You're making good progress.

2FAST4U

11-03-2016, 07:48 AM

This is such a gutsy build. But you pulled it off. Fantastic job.

Jazzman

11-04-2016, 12:52 AM

This is such a gutsy build. But you pulled it off. Fantastic job.

Thanks! It ain't done yet, but it will be!! Slow and steady. I am so appreciative for all the help I have received from members of the forum. It is not too strong to say that I literally could not have done this build with out the support of the members of this forum. Thanks to all!!

Jazzman

11-04-2016, 01:29 AM

I'm not quite understanding your description of the starter wires. If you're using the Coyote harness, PDB, PCM, etc. to control the start process, you only need the pictured Coyote Starter Lead (the labeled one in the braided insulation) and the +12V large battery lead. That's it. The blue wire pictured, I assume from the RF harness, is not used. That entire RF leg, from the ignition switch and going through the clutch safety switch, is not used if the Coyote is controlling the start. Finally, looks like you're taking the front harness across the top of the radiator area? Maybe that's because of your tilt front mod? Usually that leg goes across the bottom of the radiator and the harness split is in the right place. Wiring is fun, isn't it? You're making good progress.

As usual, you are right. I was trying to make the starter wiring much more complex than it needs to be. I won't rehash the details and potentially confuse a future reader, but I was trying to find a wire from the RF harness that would connect to the starter. When allowing the Coyote PCB and PCM to control everything, there is no RF starter signal wire that needs to be connected to the starter. Bottom line: I had done a good job of marking and organizing the Coyote starter wire, then forgot all about it. When I finally spotted it, It finally dawned on me that the blue starter wire from the Coyote harness was the only thing needed. I'm slow, but I do catch on!! Thanks for the confirmation that I am back on the right track.

You are right, I am taking the front light harness across the top rather than down below as is usual. Because of the movement of the flip top, and the modifications in the area of the lower radiator, it seems to be a bit more simple to take it across the top. I plan to hook the smaller bulbs in the Tangent fixture into the running light circuit since they are more decorative in nature.

edwardb

11-04-2016, 05:36 AM

I plan to hook the smaller bulbs in the Tangent fixture into the running light circuit since they are more decorative in nature.

Great idea! Wish I had thought of that. :p

Jazzman

11-08-2016, 02:53 AM

I am filling in with small projects while I wait for the bell housing to arrive. I am into week six waiting for it to be replaced and my patience is growing thin!! I began working on the PCV and vacuum system modifications that are well documented in this thread:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?22472-Important-Information-Regarding-2015-2016-Coyote-CMCV-Plumbing

If you are installing a Coyote, I highly recommend reading this thread. I will only add my own observations to this well documented thread.

First I had to disconnect the vacuum line from the back of the engine. This little sucker packs a lot of frustration power!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60659&d=1478588885

The clamp that holds it onto the engine is a dual clamp design. I am sure that there must be a tool to remove these easily, but without that tool, it is quite a job. release one clamp, the other still holds the hose tight. Release the other, same problem. It put up a good fight, but I finally got the clamp off.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60658&d=1478588884

Now the rubber hose is still very tightly attached. I finally gave up on that one and just cut it off.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60660&d=1478588885

I'm sure it was in the documentation somewhere, but I didn't pick up on the fact that there were two vacuum lines going to the air intake, one running up each side of the space under the air plenum. After consultation with the real experts, It became clear to me that when you disconnect the 90 degree hose at the back of the engine, you inherently disconnect the line that runs up the PS of the plenum. This can be removed completely.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60656&d=1478588882

EdwardB put together a very nice parts list to do his modification. When I purchased my complete kit, I purchased the "Coyote Fitment Package". One of the boxes had a bunch of hoses and clamps for the engine. I found this hose, and realized it was for the vacuum system, and it fit the front vacuum port that Edwardb shows us to use.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60657&d=1478588883

I decided to see what else was in the box that I could use. I found that with a little creativity, I didn't need to buy anything to complete the vacuum system modifications. I found a 1/2" T fitting and a barbed fitting for the smallest vacuum line that will go to the fuel regulator.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60661&d=1478588886

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60664&d=1478588888

Jazzman

11-08-2016, 03:15 AM

The challenge was changing from the 1/2" vacuum line from the front of the engine to the 3/8" vacuum line at the back of the engine. (Hey Ford, a little consistency would be appreciated!!) After looking around at Summit, I found these little adapters to do exactly that.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60677&d=1478588898

Had to buy 5 of them, and needed only one, so if you are doing this mod and want to follow my lead, PM me and I will be happy to send you one of these adaptors. I don't think I am going to need any more.

A short piece of 1/2" hose to the adapter . . .

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60674&d=1478588895

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60675&d=1478588896

Then I hooked it up to the main line from the front of the engine.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60676&d=1478588897

All done, and just used parts that weren't going to be used anyway. Not very pretty, but you would have to have a fiberoptic camera see back there after the body is installed.

I installed the little cap on the front of the engine per the FFR Coyote install instructions.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60663&d=1478588887

Jazzman

11-08-2016, 03:53 AM

Moving back to wiring, I installed the Computer access port. because everything else was on the DS, I put this way over on the PS, out of the way but still accessible.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60665&d=1478588889

This did, of course, required yet more stripping of the wiring harness and reworking the wire exit locations. I have pretty much stripped every branch of the RF wiring harness now. It is slowly getting done and becoming more organized. The three main wires needed to be shortened, and I will connect the two ground wires to the frame with the other main grounding leg of the coyote harness.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60667&d=1478588890

I ran buttoned up the main battery line to the starter and the blue Coyote start wire and ran it down the angled engine bay support member. It is well out of the way, yet provides enough flexibility reach the starter. (I hope!!) I made up the alternator line to go from the Alternator to the fuse bar behind the dash. It is not yet cut to length, I will do that after the engine is installed. Everything now appears to be ready to install the engine. Nothing is in the way, and I think all the wires and harnesses are in place, ready to go.

I found that after stripping the APPS line (Accelerator Pedal Power Supply), then putting it in its own convolute line, It was just the right length to go to the Accellerator pedal area. Nice that I didn't have to splice this one at all.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60669&d=1478588891

Jazzman

11-08-2016, 04:15 AM

I decided I had not set the pedals far enough forward in the DS footbox. With quite a bit of slow work, I was able to adjust the clutch pedal to move it almost 2" further forward. It now bottoms out within one inch of the front panel of the DS footbox. Feels about right.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60678&d=1478595664

Now I am having difficulty figuring out how to adjust the two brake MC's to make the brake pedal match the clutch. I know the shafts have to be screwed in, but the only way I can figure out to do that is to completely open up the brake system, drain the lines, unhook the MC's and then screw them in. I really would like to avoid that.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60673&d=1478588894

The shafts of the brake MC's are held in place by a tight clip around the end of the boot. They don't allow the shafts to rotate.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60672&d=1478588894

What am I missing? I tried to remove the balancing bar, but it would not come out in either direction. I loosened the nut and screw fitting on the inboard side of the balance bar. No joy. How do you adjust the brake pedal location?

wareaglescott

11-08-2016, 06:45 AM

Keep in mind that line to the alternator also can be combined with the tach wire, oil pressure and water temp senders that hook up down by the alternator. Can't help you on the master cylinders because mine are different.
What is eta on the bell housing?

2bking

11-08-2016, 08:58 AM

There are two ways to screw the shafts in and out but the easiest will be to pull the boots off the master cylinders. Then boot and shaft can turn together. When you get the pedal adjusted, the boots can be pushed back on the masters. The other is to turn the shafts with boots attached but that is more difficult. The shafts will spin in the boots with something like needle nose pliers applying the turning force but that is slow going.

Jazzman

11-12-2016, 01:34 AM

I am moving ever closer to engine install. I spent most of this week trying to figure out the finer points of the clutch fork. After consultation with other members of this forum, I began this evening putting the fork into the bell housing. I put the throwout bearing onto the fork, and very lightly greased all the contact surfaces.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60722&d=1478736283

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60723&d=1478736284

At the far right side of the previous photo, you can just barely see the fork weight. This is not needed with the hydraulic clutch setup I am doing. I removed it, but forgot to take another photo. Imagine the clutch fork with a big empty spot on the back. Ok, you've got it!!

It took me quite a while to determine that these three pieces are not needed in this particular setup.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60721&d=1478736283

I attached the aluminum attachment piece from the Forte Hydraulic clutch kit to the end of the clutch fork. It comes with one bolt, but like EdwardB, I decided to add a second one. Not really sure if it is necessary, but nature abhors a vacuum, and there was a second hole in the piece that was just begging to be filled. I gave the entire fork two coats of POR15 to seal it up and make it look good. (like anyone but you is actually going to see it under there!!)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60829&d=1478930858

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60830&d=1478930859

Make note that in that photo, the attachment piece is actually too far out. I had to adjust it further back on the clutch fork. I just about lined up the fronts of each piece. Your adjustment may vary!

I installed the bell housing (finally!!!). I had to open up the PS alignment hole on the bell just a bit to make is slip on smoothly. I used the die grinder and a narrow grinding bit to remove the black paint/powdercoat from the inside of the hole, then removed just a little bit more. After a couple of attempts, it slipped on easily. The bolts are generally straightforward. Five equal length bolts go into the holes on the sides of the bell, the two longer bolts and the unique spacers that come with the bell go over the top of the two alignment pins. Because one pin is so close to the side of the bell, only one of the spacers will work in that place. The spacer with the offset hole goes over the PS alignment pin, the centered hole spacer goes over the DS alignment pin. Used blue loctite on everything, but all these bell attachment bolts also have lock washers. I used both. Could not find torque values anywhere, so I tightened them "sufficiently". At the bottom of the bell, offset from center, are two smaller threaded holes in the bell. The bell bolt kit comes with two 1/2" long bolts that are installed from the front side of the mid plate into the flange on the bell housing.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60831&d=1478930859

Jazzman

11-12-2016, 02:00 AM

So at this point it seems like it is time to attach the transmission to the engine. The engine is hanging from the shop crane at a decent angle. I tried several methods to attach a ratched tie down strap to the front of the engine to raise it. I found the one that worked was to attach one end of the strap to the bolt that holds the power steering pump to the engine, run the strap up over the top of the crane arm, then down to the lower leg where the other end was attached. Because the powersteering pump is attached with three bolts and a large steel bracket, I felt the weight of the end of the engine would be spread over three differnt points on the engine block. It worked. With the help of my lovely assistant, a bit of sweat and multiple adjustments on the crane, the leveling tie strap, and the position of the transmission, we finally got the transmission shaft to slide completely into the clutch and seat on the bearing. It was a very good feeling! Until . . .

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60834&d=1478930861

Now I am a lover of chrome, a fan of bright and shiny objects. To my mind, they belong out in the open where they can be enjoyed. So it never occurred to me that this lovely piece of bling would get completely buried between the tranny and the bell housing. Needless to say, we reluctantly pulled the tranny back out of the clutch assembly, slid the mating ring onto the housing of the tranny, and once again slid the shaft back into place. It did go easier this time. (Experience? Luck?)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60835&d=1478930862

I found that the long bolts that come with Forte's Hydraulic clutch kit are the right size and length for their purpose, but I did not have the correct size shorter bolts for the PS side of the transmission. Off to Ace I went to buy two 7/16" x 1.25" grade 8 bolts. All the bolts fit into their holes easier the second time. Clearly the adapter/mating ring that we missed the first time is important. Loctite and lock washers again, but still no known torque specs. I tighened them "appropriately".

The FFR Coyote installation instructions show replacing the stock oil pressure gauge sending unit. I have two issues with this. First, it looks very nicely installed into the coyote wiring harness, and second, I don't think I have the FFR supplies oil pressure gauge sending unit illustrated. I sure don't remember ever seeing one, and certainly can't find it now. What do you think? Should I replace the factory supplied oil pressure gauge sending unit?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60837&d=1478930863

The FFR instructions also say to remove this plug, and replace it with a new water temperature sending unit supplied by FFR.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60838&d=1478930864

I suspect this is the water temp sending unit that they are talking about, but it looks significantly different from the photos in the instructions, and I also don't have the adapter they list. I can get one at Ace, but should I?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60839&d=1478930864

What do you think? is this the part? I can get an adapter at Ace, but should I?

Jazzman

11-12-2016, 02:17 AM

I installed the starter. No drama at all. Three bolts, a bit of loctite. Easy Peasy.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60840&d=1478930865

I installed the PS engine mount, but left the DS off. I have been warned that it is a lot easier to tighten the DS header bolts if that engine mounting unit is not in your way.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60841&d=1478930865

The car is currently flat on the floor. After I have the engine partially installed, I will like need to put at least the front of the car up on jackstands to be able to get under it to install the lower and rearward header bolts, and possibly the engine mount bolts as well. I figured having the car as low as possible would be both easier and more safe as I put the engine in. However, if I need to lift the front of the car to access the rearmost header bolts, how will I do it without one engine mount installed?

I was looking for other parts, specifically the oil pressure and water temperature sending units, and came across something I didn't remember I had: header bolts! I have 16 header bolts (8 each side), and four longer, thicker, with flanges around the head that I have no idea what they are for!!! Because FFR provided the header bolts, I returned the ones I had purchased, and removed all the header studs on both sides of the engine. I think I will like the look, a bit cleaner than the studs and nuts.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60842&d=1478930866

I finished up the night starting to put a second layer of Thermo Tek insulation mat in the corner of the DS footbox. I wanted a second coat for insulation purposes, but it also serves another role. I covered the 4" round tube showing on the inboard side of the DS footbox, then carried this one piece partially up the inboard wall of the DS footbox. This provides a nice seal against water, but it also provides a backstop for the bead of silicone that I put into that corner from the engine bay side to completely seal up that seam against water entry. I will ultimately give all the panels near the headers a second coat of heat shielding. That will wait for another day.

edwardb

11-12-2016, 02:34 AM

The oil pressure and water temp sending units are in the gauge box. They come with the gauges. They look just like the ones in the FF Coyote instructions. Assuming we're talking about Speedhut.

Just make sure the header bolts you're considering are engaging as much of the threads in the head as possible. Check with the header and gasket, and confirm the amount of threads showing through are nearly the full depth.

I install the engine with the chassis on wheel dollies. Easy to move around plus high enough to reach under for engine mounts, headers, etc.

Jazzman

11-12-2016, 02:51 AM

Thanks Edwardb!! You officially sleep even less than I do!! It has to be almost 2 am there!! Welcome to the night owl club��!!

Jeff Kleiner

11-12-2016, 06:23 AM

My engine installation recommendation---

Get the chassis as high as is practical (make sure your jackstand placement won't interfere with the hoist legs as you roll it into position) with the nose down and tail up. Doing so reduces the amount of angle required on the engine & trans as you stab it into the tunnel. An engine leveler is invaluable and turns the process into a one man, 10 minute job:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Mk4%207276/100_1942.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Mk4%207276/100_1943.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Mk4%207276/100_1948.jpg

Good luck!

Jeff

wareaglescott

11-12-2016, 07:17 AM

2nd recommendation for the engine leveler. It is so tight getting the coyote in that I'm not sure we could have done it without multiple asjustmebts on the leveler along the way to make things work. Kind of like once we cleared something and then came to the next potential conflict we releveled to clear that and then moved to the next.

My cheap harbour freight one worked great. However the plastic handle that comes with it is junk. I got some bolts and threaded rod and made a better handle. I would recommend that.

skullandbones

11-12-2016, 10:09 AM

Hi Kevin,

Aren't we having fun! Your post caused those memories to flood back into my head. I remember how bizarre our set up was. I had the hoist set up to the side with the chassis on it's dolly facing down the garage pad which sounds crazy. However, it allowed me to inch the small block/trans straight into the tunnel without much adjustment on the engine angle. So basically the engine was pretty much level with the car angled down. My lovely assistant (I have one too) was at the end of a large anchor rope with belaying pin. She was somewhat bored during the process but managed it well. It is amazing when a plan works just like you see it in your head. The only sticking point was when the trans tail piece had to be raised a little to clear the mount and 4 inch tube. It was a ten minute process that should have taken longer but you are just thankful when things go your way. I have helped others do it similarly and find that the leveler is worth every penny you spent on it! If I didn't know better, I would say that little engine really wanted to be in a Cobra.

Good luck and be extra careful.

WEK.

2bking

11-12-2016, 01:54 PM

I was looking for other parts, specifically the oil pressure and water temperature sending units, and came across something I didn't remember I had: header bolts! I have 16 header bolts (8 each side), and four longer, thicker, with flanges around the head that I have no idea what they are for!!! Because FFR provided the header bolts, I returned the ones I had purchased, and removed all the header studs on both sides of the engine. I think I will like the look, a bit cleaner than the studs and nuts.

The studs and nuts are far superior to the bolts when aluminum is the material having threads. Ford puts them in there for this reason. I kept mine as it came from the factory but cut the studs to the minimum length so about one thread was showing when the nuts were torqued to spec to make the header installation easier. I did have to raise the engine off the DS mount to get that header on. I was able to get access all the nuts to tighten them although only about half of them can be accessed with a torque wrench.

Jazzman

11-12-2016, 01:55 PM

The oil pressure and water temp sending units are in the gauge box. They come with the gauges. They look just like the ones in the FF Coyote instructions. Assuming we're talking about Speedhut.

Thanks, you were right. I looked everywhere else, but I didn't look in the gauge box. There they were. You are amazing: You can find things in my garage from 2000 miles away!! Of course my wife says I can't find my sox in my drawer!

Jazzman

11-12-2016, 10:20 PM

I took my bride out for breakfast this morning, then we headed to home Depot. I needed more silicone caulk, she wanted to look at tile and paint. I think that trip is going to be much more expensive in the future than it was today.

It is good to have a friend with a full machine shop! According to those that have done the engine install before, I need a 3/4" spacer to hold up the rear end of the transmission. I went to Ace last night and considered using metal bushings or washers, but I wasn't sure that would be good enough. I called a good friend, and he quickly whipped up these beauties:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60897&d=1479004947

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60898&d=1479004948

Stack them up, and you get exactly 3/4" thick. While no one will ever really see it or notice, it is nice to know that these spacers are exactly 4"x2", the 1/2" holes are exactly centered in every direction within 1/10000"! Thus are the capabilities of a master craftsman and his mill!

Back at the shop, I got to work on final, minor details. I added a second ground strap to the PS engine mount.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60904&d=1479004951

I moved the engine and hoist over near the front of the car to see if I would be able to maneuver it in the space available. Just barely, but It should work.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60900&d=1479004949

I applied caulk to the area where the inboard side of the DS Footbox meets the 4" frame tube. I laid in a generous supply, then leveled it out. Since it dries clear, it should be almost invisible once it hardens.

I reattached the rear wiring harness to the corner of the tranny tunnel. It is high and tight, completely out of the way of the tranny/engine install.

I dropped the front of the car so the wheels are on the ground, but left the tail end up on the jack stands. Appearantly this will make it easier to slide the engine in. Since I don't have an engine leveler, and would have the ability to attach it to my engine anyway, I want to make the process as easy as I can.

I decided to remake the cable from the battery to the starter. It was just a bit short and I wanted to make sure to do it now while it was easier to access. Off to Ace to get more cable terminals. I also was lucky enough to find the 14mm Hex Key I needed to remove the plug from the water jacket. That is the biggest hex key they had, and the biggest I have ever seen. $10 for a one time use. Oh well, can't remove the plug without it. Home I go.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60901&d=1479004949

After I returned, I started work on the oil pressure and water temperature sending units. I had all the pieces I needed for the oil pressure unit, but didn't want to fully install it before I had the water temp unit installed because it would be in the way. Unfortunatly I did not have the 3/4" to 1/2" adapter that was necessary to install the water temp sender. I did have the 1/2" to 1/8" NPT adapter. So back to Ace I go. Trip #2. I was looking for a 3/4" to 1/2" adapter, which they had, but they also had a 3/4" to 1/8"npt adapter. It would eliminate one adapter. Made sense to me, so I went with the single adapter. Back to the house.

The water sender goes in without issue. Teflon tape, a bit of wrench work, and it is installed.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60902&d=1479004950

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60903&d=1479004951

FFinisher

11-12-2016, 10:27 PM

Those tranny spacers are cool. Do you have the mount extension from FFR ? You will need one of those as well... as the transmission will be about 2 inches away from the "A" frame.

.....never mind, I see it in post 441.

Jazzman

11-12-2016, 10:45 PM

The oil pressure sending unit threaded right in. no problem. then I started attaching the wires to the sending units. The water temp was easy as it just clips in. However the oil pressure unit requires two wires. I attached the appropriate terminators on the wire ends, and covered it up in shrink wrap. With just a nut driver in hand, I put the wires on the posts, black to "G" (ground) and white to "S" (signal). Ground wire tighens up just fine. Then the signal terminal . . .

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60906&d=1479004952

Yep, it snapped off with just my hand held nut driver. Either I was suddenly overcome with Hulk-like strength, or this piece is really cheap! I removed it and headed over to the local O'Reily store to see if by some miracle they actually have one. This is the same store that never seems to have what I need. And this time . . . no surprise, they don't have this either. Of course their job of even figuring out what it is was significantly complicated by the fact that it has no manufacturers name, no part number, nothing to help identify it.

So now I have three options. 1) put the engine in without the right part and try to fight access to it after the headers on on, 2) wait to install the engine until next week and call FFR on Monday, or 3) use the factory installed oil pressure sending unit. Since Ford put a sending unit in, wired it into the factory harness, and covered it with heat protection tape, why shouldn't I just use Ford's unit and connect up Ford's wiring? I think that is the direction I will go for now. It doesn't look like access to this area will be too bad after install. It is forward of the engine mounts, forward of the DS footbox, and rearward of the alternator. If you have thoughts on why I should use FFR's sender rather than the stock Ford piece, please let me know.

Jazzman

11-12-2016, 11:55 PM

This seems to be a evening of setbacks and frustrations. I began installing and adjusting the slave cylinder for the clutch. I have been told that I should trim it, but an exact length was unknown. I measured it against the space available from the mounting point on the clutch fork to what should be the bottom of the MC. I cut off about 1".

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60909&d=1479011413

I put the shaft back in the slave, and found that it appeares to be very short. There does not appear to be room for the boot.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60911&d=1479011414

Worst of all, it is still too long to fit in the space available. I started comparing the spacing I see in this photo of my current setup . . .

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60908&d=1479011413

with the spacing I see in the second photo of post #291 in EdwardB's 20th Anniversary build thread: (Here is the link, and I also copied the picture here for comparison. Thank you in advance, EdwardB!!)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?18591-EdwardBs-Mk4-8674-20th-Anniversary-Build/page8

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60913&d=1479012311

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60912&d=1479011415

It sure looks to me like the tip of my clutch fork is too far rearward. If I am right, it appears to me that the only adjustment that will move the tip of the clutch fork forward is to extend out the length of the pivot bolt deep inside the bell housing. To get to this place again, I have to remove the transmission and remove the bell housing . . . again! It is 10pm. I have screwed up enough for one day. I am going to bed. Perhaps an epiphany will come to me in a dream. Or perhaps your name is Epiphany!! Got any ideas?

edwardb

11-13-2016, 12:04 AM

Sorry to hear about the setbacks. It happens... That sending unit is fragile. I've stripped one, but not broken it off completely. They need a very light touch. I ordered another from Speedhut. I think that's your only viable option. I wouldn't try to use another type or brand. It's easily accessible with the engine in and headers mounted. No problem there. So you can easily install the part once it arrives and not hold up your progress. For several reasons, I wouldn't try to break into the Ford wiring harness.

For the hydraulic clutch setup, yes the boot has to fit up and over the rod end. That's visible in my picture you posted. But I don't think you have the clutch arm adjusted quite right. The pivot does need to be raised a bit and move the clutch arm away from the slave cylinder. Too bad you put everything together that far already. It's pretty normal to have just the bell housing off and on a few times to find the right location for the pivot. Then install the transmission.

edwardb

11-13-2016, 12:34 AM

Thanks Edwardb!! You officially sleep even less than I do!! It has to be almost 2 am there!! Welcome to the night owl club��!!

LOL. We're in Oregon visiting family. It was late, but not 2 am. ;)

wareaglescott

11-13-2016, 05:47 AM

I had the exact same problem with the oil pressure sender. I called FFR and Tony just happened to have one sitting in a box of spare parts under the desk and sent it for free. You may want to check with them before speedhut. I changed it out with the motor in place. I wouldn't say it was easily accessible like Paul but it was doable for me. My headers may be different. A lift would certainly make it more accessible and Paul has much more experience working in the tight confines of the engine area. I found it quite tight to get my big hands in there to tighten things up. Paul's recommendation not to delay the engine install for that is a good one.

Like you I didn't have the needed fitting for the water temp sender. Not sure why FFR can put that in the directions but can't send the correct part.

Good luck moving forward. Sorry I didn't mention the leveler before you put it down to extend the crane arm. I'm not sure how I would have got the motor to clear everything without adjusting it multiple times during the install but again that may just be my inexperience.

Jeff Kleiner

11-13-2016, 07:39 AM

The oil pressure sender is specific to Speedhut. Call them Monday and they'll get one out to you. Their customer service is great---which is a damn good thing given the quality of their products (I think you can read between the lines to understand what I'm saying :rolleyes: )

Jeff

Jazzman

11-13-2016, 09:24 PM

The engine didn't go in this weekend. I realized that I had to take about 8 steps backwards to get to the pivot bolt that controled the location of the clutch fork. I will not document it all with photos, because, lets face it, its going to look just like it went together!! I did all the following:

1. Removed the hydraulic clutch kit.
2. Removed the Transmission. At first I forgot to use the leveling strap to keep the engine aligned with the tranny, but once I noted that error it came apart . . . with a lot of grunting!!
3. Removed the starter.
4. Noted the distance from the rear of the clutch fork to the front of the bell housing flange: 1/2".
5. Removed the bell housing.
6. Removed the pivot bolt.

I was surprised to find that though the hole for the pivot bolt is 1" deep, the bolt was only threaded into the hole 7/16".

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60934&d=1479088648

I am sure that those of you that got a better grade in high school geometry than I did could figure out how much further out the pivot bolt should be adjusted to move the other end of the clutch fork away from the flange to at least 1", perhaps a little more. High school geometry was a long time ago, and I certainly can't remember the right theorem to figure it out. I do know that I am uncomfortable having much less than 3/8" of thread holding the pivot bolt in the hole. I think I am going to need to order a slightly longer pivot bolt. I have only read about one person that had to buy a longer pivot bolt, but I don't think he was using a similar engine/bell housing/tranny combination. Did any one else have to do this? What length did you find that worked well?

I made a small bit of progress on the sending units. I decide that even without the oil pressure sending unit, I could get the wiring in there. I had been warned by WarEagleScott that it would be much easier to do now than to wait till the engine was in the car. I bought some of this stuff to cover the wires:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60933&d=1479088647

I but the wires for the oil pressure and the water temperature senders together, wrapped them in convoluted tubing, then taped up the convolute in a few places just to keep it the wires in. I then took long strips of this tape and wrapped it around the last 15" of the convoluted covering. This heat tape sticks very well, and should do the job nicely. I zip tied it to the other wires already going in the direction I wanted, and left most of the wire on top of the engine. It will be dealt with later on after the engine is in.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60932&d=1479088646

I may need to add one more zip tie to keep the wires as far away from the headers as possible. That decision will be made after the engine and headers are in the car.

Now I have to wait for a number of replacement parts to fix all the things I broke this weekend: A new shaft for the slave cylinder, a new oil pressure sending unit, and now a longer pivot bolt. Maybe the engine will go in next weekend. I was really hoping to fire it up Thanksgiving weekend, exactly one year from the day I started this journey. I still have to order power steering hoses, coolant hoses, install the radiator, the Power steering overflow tank, and a bunch of other stuff. I don't think I am going to get it started by Thanksgiving. Then again, this is not a race, and I sure am having fun! I don't want this journey to end any too soon. Of course I don't like going backwards either!

Jazzman

11-13-2016, 10:23 PM

I guess it hasn't been an entirely unproductive day. I had noticed that the way the chains were connecting the engine to the hoist, the DS chain was very close to the end of the fuel rail. If I were to try to tip the rear end of the engine downward to get it into the engine bay, the DS chain would tear off the fuel rail. That did it. I had to take the time to buy a load leveler for the engine hoist and get it installed above the engine. I hate HF, but in this case this will likely be a one use item, so I went ahead and spent the $50 to get a HF load leveler. They had it in stock, no one else I could find did.

I set down the engine on my very temporary engine stand. (Glad I didn't throw that away!!) I had to completely disconnect the engine from the shop crane in order to install the load leveler. Installing the leveler is pretty straight forward. Disconnect everything, put the leveler on the hoist hook, reconnect the chains to the ends of the leveler. After reconnecting the chains and taking a guesstimate of where to center the leveler over the engine, I lifted the engine up again. Came right up easy as you please, centered like I knew what I was doing!! The chains are now a long way from anything they will damage. It should have plenty of tilting area to go into the engine bay.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60942&d=1479093290

Jazzman

11-14-2016, 12:46 AM

One of the things I like about a project of this magnitude is the fact that there seems to be a never ending list of additional things to do. With the engine install on hold for now, I set to work redoing another task. Several months ago FFR was kind enough to send me replacement bolts and misallignment spacers for the connection of the IRS upper control arm and the rear spindle. It didn't really look like much, but now that it's done, I think I see the logic. Here are the pieces that FFR sent with my original kit installed on the PS.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60943&d=1479101721

and here are the new parts that FFR sent installed on the DS. I didn't have the 5/8" washer that they specified. I went back to my orginal installation instructions and didn't discover that one was supposed to be there. I looked in my ever growing pile of miscellaneous parts to see if I had mistakenly not installed them. (I keep everything!!) Nope, I did not find any 5/8" washers. I looked at the parts, and decided that the washer was not really necessary, so I installed it without the washer.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60944&d=1479101722

If you compare the two photos, you can see where the outside portion of the upper control arm end has a bit more room to move. It must be important if FFR went to the effort of sending it to me 6 months after I got my kit. Thanks FFR for looking out for us!

Jazzman

11-15-2016, 01:12 AM

Perceptions and expectations. Those things that bend our mind to believe that we know what is going on even when we do not. After removing the transmission and bell housing again, I still could find no adjustment to the pivot bolt that made sense to my mind, to my perception of the problem, to my expectations of what I thought I knew. After adjusting the pivot bolt to the longest length I deemed safe, I reinstalled the clutch fork and bell housing. I discovered that not only did I not solve the problem, I had made is worse! Frustrated and hungry, (these often go together!) I got dinner, and considered what in the world I should do. I had already called FFR, Forte, and Quicktime to see if they had any suggestions. They did not. No one had expressed this particular problem. Returning to the engine, I tried to peer in through the rear hole of the bell housing to see if I could spot the problem. I could not even see pivot bolt from that angle. I leaned way over, looking virtually upside down into the rear hole of the bell housing. I could see the pivot bolt, and at that moment the epiphany hit me: My perception and expectations were all wrong, quite literally 180 degrees off! In my mind, I had constructed a mental picture of the inside of the bell housing. In this faulty mental picture, the more I extended the pivot bolt, the further away from the rear of the opening the clutch fork should move. However, that is exactly backward. I realized by looking at the clutch fork and pivot bolt upside down that the correct solution was to screw the pivot bolt into the rear of the bell housing, to make the pivot bolt head SHORTER, not longer, in order to move the other end of the clutch fork forward, away from the rear of the clutch fork window.

I removed the bell housing once again. (I'm am getting pretty good at it now!) I screwed in the pivot bolt as far as it would go into the bell housing, making the bolt as short as it could possibly be. After reinstalling the fork, I installed the bell housing for what I hope will be the last time. The clutch fork location in the window is definitely better, but not as far forward as I would like.

I then began refitting the Forte hydraulic clutch slave cylinder. The shaft of the slave cylinder is as short as it could get, but has no play at all. Even at this length, the boot is jammed tight against the slave cylinder, too much compression from what I have seen. It all fit, but is very tight, too tight from what I have read. I will call Mike Forte again tomorrow and see if he can make any suggestions.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61011&d=1479187570

The transmission went on with a little bit of fight, but it got done. I find the secret is to compress the clutch fork so that the clutch disk can move a little as the shaft from the transmission is slid into place.

I have been trying to anticipate all the points of difficulty as I put the motor into place. I really don't want to have to take it out to fix anything!! I know that the nuts and bolts that hold the headers on are very difficult to access once the engine is in place. I would like to end up using only bolts but I also know that I need some studs to hang the headers and gaskets on while I install all the bolts. I decided to put two studs in place to hang the gasket and the header on. I decided to put a stud in the forward most top position on each side, and another one on the #3 hole on the bottom of each side as you count from front to rear. By doing this, the front one can be removed and replaced with a bolt after other bolts are installed, and the rear most bolt will be well hidden if it is not removable. I hung both headers on just to make sure they were going to line up. All looks as good as i think it can.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61012&d=1479187571

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61013&d=1479187571

Finally, the oil separator arrived from JLT Performance today. It looks nice, but I am not going to install it until the engine is fully in. I am still waiting on some braided stainless vacuum hose to arrive. The interesting part is that I can't seem to unscrew the bottom section from the top. I will have to call JLT tomorrow on that.

wareaglescott

11-15-2016, 08:58 AM

Jazzman

11-15-2016, 06:24 PM

Kevin,
If you notice in your post 453 the picture you posted of Pauls hydraulic clutch the boot sits differently than how yours is in this last post. I am having a hard time understanding your issue but if you extend the boot down the rod like Paul did would that help you at all?
I positioned my boot like Paul shows. It was tight getting it on there but worked good then.

Funny you should notice that. Paul and I were just talking about that today. That is a big part of the issue. Paul suggested I take the boot off entirely, fit the shaft correctly, then put the boot back on only for the final fitting. That is project #1 tonight.

TexasAviator

11-15-2016, 06:55 PM

Excellent progress. The setup is coming along nicely. I see you have the family involved and I am sure your wife know how much it means to you to be able to build this. Very well done.

Jazzman

11-16-2016, 02:20 AM

The clutch slave unit is finally in, and adjusted to what I believe is the correct distances.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61052&d=1479278769

The key was to slide the boot all the way up over the rod end piece so that the entire rod end is inside the boot. I ended up cutting a total of about 1.125" off the shaft of the slave unit to make it fit well. The shaft has just a little bit of play when the clutch fork is all the way back. I am glad to have that one done!!

A trusted advisor commented that I may be overthinking things regarding preparations for installing the engine. Yeah, that may indeed be true. But I think at this point I am ready to install the engine. Lets see if I have checked all the boxes:

The engine grounding straps are both attached to the rear side of both engine mounts welded onto the frame.
The steering shaft has been disconnected at the steering rack and laid as far outboard as it will go.
The triple CNC brake/clutch fluid reservoirs are disconnected and swung out of the way.
All the wire below the firewall are wrapped, clamped into place.
The starter power wire and the starter signal wire are both heat wrapped, clamped to the down rail, and terminated with ring ends, ready to attach to the starter.
The alternator power wire is installed and in place, although it is not yet clamped into place because I am not yet sure what length it will end up.
The hydraulic line from the clutch MC to the Clutch slave cylinder is routed out of the DS foot box, riveted into place with wire clamps, and is hanging near where the slave cylinder will be.
The fuel lines are all in and attached to the inside wall of the PS footbox. The last 4 feet of fuel line connecting the pressure regulator to the engine fuel rail is here, just waiting to be cut to length.
FFR Engine mount plates are installed to lift the engine 1/2"
3/4" tall transmission support plates are made and ready to go. Longer transmission attachment bolts are on hand.
The Transmission support rack is on hand.
I have pads on hand to protect the footboxes, the firewall, and the front rail.

Things I might still need to do:
Cut one of the crossmembers from the top of the tranny tunnel. From other photos I have seen, I think my mid-shift shifter location will hit this crossmember. I have decided to wait to do that until I can confirm it is necessary.
Per EdwardB's recommendation, I have ordered a set of RemFlex header gaskets and some 10mm hex head screws to use for the installation of the headers. I am hoping they will get here by the end of the week, but I fear they may not.

Did I miss anything?

I think all I have left to do is find some friends who might help me. My wife is quite nervous about me/us doing it by ourselves. I am really not sure how much help I should have or will need. Several of my good friends who are very excited that I am doing this project are either out of town or have admitted that they would be about as useful as a bicycle to a fish! I think this thing is going in Saturday come you-know-what or high water!! I'm tired of waiting to cross this hurdle.

wareaglescott

11-16-2016, 07:29 AM

Tell your wife not to be to concerned and the friends that think they would not be helpful they are probably wrong. Me, my wife and two guys that had never done this before put mine in. The helpers just help with sets of hands to stabilize and move. No special knowledge needed.
Looks like you are ready to go! Cant wait to see that update. Seeing that it is only Wednesday I am not sure you can wait for the weekend without recruiting someone for some late night help tonight or tomorrow! haha
The only other thing I did was to take the piece the shifter handle bolts to that is sticking up from the transmission off and tape over the opening. That gives a couple more inches clearance without the nub sticking up. I got that tip from Paul and it was a good one! ( I later ended up taking the cover plate off again to pour in the fluid which was very easy and clean. If you take it off maybe just leave it off until you are ready for the fluid to go in and it will save a step.)

Jazzman

11-17-2016, 02:50 AM

Note to future builders: install the gas pedal before you permanently attach the engine compartment sidewall of the DS footbox. It gets very small in that space, especially now that there are master cylinders and wire harnesses and brake lines and clutch lines and . . . on and on!! I followed the FFR instructions to cut the Coyote pedal. I did leave it a bit longer than FFR so that the cut would not be seen. The actual pedal is a bit more vertical than I would like, but as soon as you even touch the pedal, it goes back on the spring loaded mounting to fit just fine. The pedal isn't very pretty, and it is on a bit of an angle, but I still have one more idea that I may try. You'll know it after I try it!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61068&d=1479367227

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61067&d=1479367227

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61069&d=1479367228

I started out this evening adjusting the brake MC's to move the brake pedal forward. I wanted a bit more leg room, and at my height (5'9") that doesn't take much. I moved the clutch pedal forward a couple of weeks ago, but was stumped by my inability to turn the shafts of the brake MC's. The boots were held on extremely tightly with metal clips around the end near the shaft. I removed that metal clip, pushed back the boot, and found that there is non-threaded area further aft on the MC shaft. It was relatively simple to screw the shafts into the pedal to move the pedal forward. I was able to move the brake pedal forward so that I have more legroom, but . . .

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61070&d=1479367229

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61071&d=1479367230

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61072&d=1479367231

I now think that I may have moved the brake and clutch pedals a bit too far forward. They are supposed to be 2" aft of the gas pedal, sadly just about where I had them set before I adjusted them for more leg room. That is just about as far forward as you can get the gas pedal, so the brake and clutch pretty much have to be moved aft. Hmmm. What to do. Yep. Sleep on it.

Jeff Kleiner

11-17-2016, 05:43 AM

I think you'll find that you do not want all 3 pedals on the same plane when they're at rest---too easy to get a foot on the throttle and brake simultaneously. I ordinarily set them up so that the throttle pedal is about 2 inches or so forward of the brake much like your daily driver.

I'm enjoying watching your progress; you're doing a great job of building and documenting!

Jeff

wareaglescott

11-17-2016, 06:57 AM

I found doing the carpet the other day that the side piece that wraps around from the outer wall of the drivers footbox to the forward wall behind the pedals is quite tricky to get in there as well. Particularly with the adhesive applied. You should enjoy that space crunch similar to putting the accel pedal in! It is one piece the wraps around the corner. I ended up cutting it into 2 pieces and hiding the cut right in the corner behind the bar. You may give some consideration to pre carpeting just that piece prior to putting that outer wall back on.

My pedals are aligned about like your pictures. At 6'3" I needed them all as far away from me as I can get them. As Jeff mentioned I have had a couple instances of brake and gas pedal at the same time. My big feet are learning though. That setup is less than optimal. If I had more leg room I would change it. If you can adjust them some that would probably be preferred.

Jazzman

11-18-2016, 01:04 AM

Patience has never been my virtue. So when the Remflex gaskets arrived today from Summit, I just couldn't resist trying to put the engine in. No, I didn't have a group of experienced friends standing around helping. I was armed only with the love of a good woman. My bride has helped me put the pumpkin in, has helped me install the transmission three times, and done a dozen other tasks she never thought she would do. But tonight, we both attacked the next big obstacle: shoehorning an engine which is clearly too big for most reasonable people to want into a hole that looks as if it won't hold the motor from a Vespa! But as so many have already proven, somehow it does go in there!!

I started by installing the oil pressure sending unit that arrived today from Speedhut. No drama this time, but I was very careful not to over tighten anything.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61080&d=1479447124

I removed the low oil sensor from the DS of the oil pan and I am very glad that I did. The engine simply would not have gone in without removing it. The Moroso oil pan is just barely narrow enough to go between the engine mounts on the frame.

I removed the gear shift lever from the top of the transmission. Again, I was very glad I did because it was one less thing to have to watch.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61082&d=1479447125

My garage has sort of an odd ceiling. It is 8' high near the garage door, but 9.5' high at the back of the garage. When the garage door is open, the vertical space is only a little over 7 feet. Because of this, I had to have the shop crane with the engine on it raised up toward the back of the garage. This meant that the rear of the car had to be near the garage door. This also meant that the maneuvering area at the front end of the car (the rear of the garage) was quite limited. It took quite a number of back and forth movements just to get the shop crane under the car and lined up with frame. I had to turn the front wheels to their limit first to the left, move the crane a little, then turn the wheels to the right and move the crane a little more.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61081&d=1479447125

I needed to control the downward angle of the transmission. I hooked one end of a ratched tie down strap to the tip of the transmission, went under the 4" frame member at the front, and then up to the top of the shop crane. You can see where I attached the red strap right next to my wife's right hand.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61084&d=1479447126

Then it was just a matter of very, very, VERY slowly moving the engine down and into the engine bay. We were literally moving in 1/4" increments.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61085&d=1479447127

We stopped several times to reset the strap that was pulling the transmission down while we lowered the engine. It was a constant process of lowering the engine while pulling down the transmission, then lowering the engine while allowing the transmission to rise and the engine to level it self out.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61086&d=1479447127

There came a point where all the padding that I had placed to protect the footboxes was just in the way. We couldn't see what we were supposed to be avoiding. I pulled them all out and moved the engine ever lower. What do you know, it worked!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61088&d=1479447128

Jazzman

11-18-2016, 01:43 AM

The engine is in, but it is not really set down yet. The PS engine mount is lined up perfectly. There still is no engine mount on the DS. I still need to get the header installed on the DS before I install the engine mount. I ordered a better set of header bolts from McMaster but they haven't gotten here yet. I decided to get the headers in place with just the two studs and nuts that I had left there to check fitment, but I will wait till I get the bolts from McMaster to tighten up the headers and ultimately drop the engine into place.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61089&d=1479447129

Now I can check a few more areas to be sure we don't have conflict. The PS front corner of the engine is way too close to the PCM. There is a small wire harness attachment point that sticks out from the head cover. It does nothing in this installation, so it will likely get cut off. I will wait on that till the engine is fully down. Because the plug on the harness attached to the engine has a 90 degree plug on the end, It could end up being a conflict with the engine. Time will tell.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61091&d=1479447130

The space between the firewall and the engine seems to be just fine. I wouldn't mind more space, but it will do. The fuel pressure regulator is at a great height, it will be easy to read once the engine is set down.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61094&d=1479449014

Some have noted the very close fit of the rear engine lift plate and the corner of the PS footbox. It is waaaayy too close for comfort. I have about 1/16" of space between them. I hope that as the engine rotates even more level, there will be just enough space to allow the plate to clear. When I get the engine lift plates off, I am going to show you how I would modify them just a little to make them fit just a little better.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61092&d=1479447131

I used the same red ratcheted tie down strap to support the tail end of the transmission until I can install the permanent tranny support rack. Hooked it on the door latch hole on one side, looped it under the tranny, then back up to the opposite side door latch area.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61093&d=1479447131

I am pleased to find that I will not have to cut any of the crossmembers in order to make the mid shifter fit. It sits neatly between the two crossmembers just like it is supposed to.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61095&d=1479451073

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions, each was used in the process. Special thanks to Jeff Kleiner for his suggestion to raise the rear and lower the front. That really seemed to help make the engine slide in more naturally.

Jeff Kleiner

11-18-2016, 06:08 AM

Success :cool:

Congrats!

Jeff

wareaglescott

11-18-2016, 06:24 AM

Nice work! Congrats

edwardb

11-18-2016, 11:06 AM

Looking good! Way to go. Now get that thing buttoned up and started. :D

Jazzman

11-19-2016, 02:19 AM

No photos tonight. I just spent the last four hours installing header bolts and the DS engine mount. Wow is that slow hard work. I got 15 of them in and tight, 8 of them actually torqued to the 20 lb spec, the rest tightened as much as humanly possible given the space available. I have only one left to put in. It is DS, top, second from the front. Should be a little easier when the lift plate is out of the way. Unfortunately it is surrounded by all four exhaust pipes. The problem is that that one bolt will not go in straight, and I am certainly not going to force it. I did get the DS engine mount installed and dropped the engine down to its final location. It sits perfectly. The oil pan is perfectly level between the frame rails, the transmission tail is perfectly alligned with the end of differential, and the PS engine lift plate cleared with 1/16" to spare!

edwardb

11-19-2016, 02:42 AM

Getting the DS header installed is certainly challenging. Just a hint. It's risky to tighten the bolts in the header before all 8 are at least started threading in. It helps to have the header a little bit away from the surface of the head plus you can wiggle the header a bit to get the alignment where the bolts will start threading in. The GP Headers bolt holes are pretty tight tolerance and in my experience need to be perfectly aligned to get the bolts started.

Good to hear your engine and trans are lining up well.

Jazzman

11-20-2016, 10:59 PM

When you install the Coyote motor into the Roadster engine bay, you have to remove the low oil sensor from the side of the oil pan for the pan to slide between the frame engine mounts. However, before you actually lower the engine fully down on the engine mounts, it is important to reinstall the low oil sensor. It is too long to fit into the hole without begin caught on the 4" frame tube. How do I know this tidbit of wisdom? Because today I tried to reinstall the sensor, only to find out that I would have to lift the engine up about 1/2" for 3 seconds to install it.

Yesterday I was trying to install the primary bolts that attach the engine mounts on the engine to the engine mounts welded to the frame. The DS nut was too tight to move. I have been nursing along my 45+ year old air compressor. Well last week it finally gave up. I decided it was time to upgrade and I couldn't put it off any longer. I decided for my use, it was hard to justify an extremely expensive two stage compressor, so I opted for the lower price with a decent warranty.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61157&d=1479698934

It took 4 1/2 hours to buy, haul home, get set up, and get it broken in. It two four seconds to tighten the two engine bolts. Perfect!!

I installed the transmission support A Frame. It took longer to find the four correct bolts than it did to install it. I used the two 3/8" transmission spacers that my friend made last week. THey fit perfectly. I made sure to install all the bolts facing downward. They all have nylock nuts and/or Loctite, so they really should not come out, but if they do, having the bolts downward might retain them long enough for me to reinstall a new nut.

I hooked up the cable going from the alternator to the fused link that feeds all the interior wiring and ultimately the battery as well. It is the big red one in this photo:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61154&d=1479698930

I installed the last 24" of braided stainless fuel line to the fuel rail on the engine. It looks good. Too bad more than half of it will be covered by the engine cover.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61155&d=1479698932

I trimmed and routed a whole series of wires along the top of the engine. I shortened a couple of long wires, and routed the alternator wire, the MAF sensor wire into place. I trimmed the wires from the oil pressure sensor and the water temperature sensor. I routed them all together into one line of convolute tubing. I then zip tied all these new lines into place. It I wish I could hide more of them, but it looks nice and clean.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61156&d=1479698933

I decided to stop before I permanently attached these wires into place. I decided to install a weatherpak to organize all these sensor wires and also make it easier to disconnect if I ever have to remove the engine. I will have to order a six post weatherpak for that location. One more for the next DelCity order.

I dug out the MAF sensor off the extra Coyote parts box. I got it installed on the Spectre air system. Not difficult, just followed the instructions. It got a bit messy using the silicone sealer, but once that was done, it wasn't too big a deal.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61158&d=1479698934

wareaglescott

11-21-2016, 06:23 AM

Looking good Kevin.
What 6 wires are you using the weatherpack on?

Jazzman

11-22-2016, 06:50 PM

I have thought about putting the following items in one weatherpack at the back of the engine: Oil Pressure, Oil Temperature, water temperature, tach, and a ground wire. However, after looking over everything else that is going on in that area, and everything that would have to be unhooked anyway, I think a weatherpak in this area is a waste of effort. I am just going to attach the wires in the standard form with heat shrink around them.

Jazzman

11-22-2016, 07:20 PM

I removed the engine lift plates from the engine yesterday. Great thanks goes out to EdwardB for designing them. They worked well, even if my measurements were off on one of them!! After reviewing them, I think there might be a couple of minor modifications that will help them fit even better. First, the right rear plate:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61252&d=1479859311

This plate comes far too close to the corner of the PS footbox. To combat this, you have two options. On the right hand side of the plate in the photo, I have drawn a large black triangle about where the plate is bent. If you will notch this section out, you will have enough clearance to avoid hitting the PS footbox. Option #2 is to adjust the hole on the left hand side of the plate upward so that the plate is attached more vertically to the engine. This will also provide enough clearance from the PS footbox. Double check your hole location because the tolerances on these holes is really tight. If I were going to remake these plates, I would make the top section about 2" longer, and move the hole for the hoist hook up on the elongated plate. This would give the hook and chain a bit more clearance over the engine coils.

The left front plate is pretty good as it is. It might also benefit from being a couple of inches longer, but you could only do this if you bent this plate as well. If you want to extend the length of the plate, you will want to bend it at approximately the line I have drawn across it:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61253&d=1479859311

I had to do a bit of minor surgery on the plug from the engine to the PCM. The reason was pretty simple: the plug turns 90 degrees, and there is not enough room between the engine and the PCM to allow this.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61236&d=1479858391

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61235&d=1479858391

After removing all the tape around the plug, I very carefully cut away the plastic frame that forced the wires to make the hard turn left. I was careful not to nick any of the wires. Sadly I was not careful enough. Luckily I only scuffed the insulation around the wire, not the wire itself. I double checked with a magnifying glass to be sure that none of the wire strands were damaged. All ok. I carefully sealed it up with electrical tape, and thanked God I did not cut one of these wires!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61238&d=1479858392

I then had to cut away and area on the top of the plug to allow the wires to remain straight. This step went smoothly.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61237&d=1479858392

After wrapping the wires in a layer of electrical tape, adding a small piece of convolute tube for added protection around the cut top of the plug case, I was able to wrap the entire plug set in a straight line with multiple layers of electrical tape.

now it lays in the very small space nicely. A few zip ties to hold it in place, and it is good to go.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61240&d=1479858393

Jazzman

11-22-2016, 07:29 PM

This is a top down view of the main wire harness for the Coyote engine.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61241&d=1479858393

Side view of the same thing:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61242&d=1479858394

The distance from the header to the wire harness is 3.25". That seems awfully close to me. I am thinking of two possible solutions. I could put a strip of the heat reflective tape on the underside of the wire harness to protect it from the high heat of the header. The second option is to re-route the wire harness and attach it below the upper frame rail.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61243&d=1479858394

Both are viable options. The second will leave a few unused holes in the frame, but nothing too significant. What do you think? Do I have a problem? Which solution is the most prudent?

I got the power wires hooked up to the starter last night. No big problems, other than it is tight for fat fingers like mine, and it is usually a better idea to put blue Loctite on the thread before you put on and fully tighten the nuts. I'm just sayin . . .

Duke

11-22-2016, 08:23 PM

You should be fine. The loom is good for 200 deg. indirect heat. You can always add some DEI heat tape to it. You'll need it anyways when you see how close the rear alternator wiring plug is to the header :cool:. Edit: never mind, I see you already have that side wrapped.

Jazzman

11-24-2016, 08:49 PM

On this thanksgiving day, we have so much to be thankful for. Even with all our disagreements, we live in the greatest country in the world. We live in a place where you can be what you want to be, think what you want to think, build what you want to build. You can choose what ever form of worship suits your taste. We are free to disagree about the details, but when all the minutae is washed away, we still choose to stand as one. We are free to disagree, and the best of us know how to disagree and retain respect for, and the respect of, those that we disagree with. We are a truly blessed Nation. I am thankful for the founding fathers that had the wisdom and foresight to lay the framework of our nation. I am thankful for every soldier who ever served for purchasing our freedom with blood. I am thankful that God has blessed me and my family with the opportunity to live in this amazing place.

One year ago tomorrow, the big FFR Semi rolled onto my street. I am certainly thankful that I have the opportunity to build a Roadster. Even more that that, I am thankful to all the members of this forum who have contributed to my success this past year: EdwardB, 2BKing, DavidHodgkins, JeffKleiner, WarEagleScott, AZPete, so many, many more. Without your help, I would not have progressed to the point I am today. I have learned a great deal about many things, but mostly I have expanded my own knowledge. This was the primary goal anyway. Thank you and blessings to all of you!

Jazzman

11-25-2016, 03:33 AM

I installed the drive shaft. No real difficulty, other than the realization that the supplied bolts are not the right size for the adapter that FFR provides. Thankfully FFR knew that, and provided alternative bolts, marked 12.2. I'm no expert, but that sounds strong enough to me.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61355&d=1480061840

The engine, transmission, drive shaft and differential all line up perfectly.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61356&d=1480061841

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61357&d=1480061841

I attached the Metco driveshaft safety hoop. Great piece of equipment. It did require a complete new set of hardware, but that's not really Metco's fault. Remember that 3/4" thick pair of transmission support plates that we have to install below the rear transmission mount? Metco did not account for this modification in their design. The hoop did fit around the drive shaft, and it actually did clear, but it really is pretty close.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61359&d=1480061842

I did the same that others have done. I used grade 8 washers to create a stack a little more than 1/4". I had to go buy 16 washers, four 3/8"x1" bolts for the hoop and two 5/16" x 2" bolts for the rear transmission attachment. These bolts were perhaps a 1/4" too long, but there was enough room for them up inside the polyurethane tranny support. I had already bought longer bolts to account for the 3/4" spacers, but now I had to buy two more to accomodate the Metco safety hoop. In this photo you can see the stack of washers. Of course everything was installed with blue loctite, and whenever possible, the bolts were installed facing downward. If the nuts fall off, you still have a bit of a chance the bolts will stay in there long enough to get you to safety. I also used deformed nuts whereever possible. (Ignore the goofy guy lying on the floor!)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61360&d=1480061843

Jazzman

11-25-2016, 03:56 AM

In order to install the engine, the CNC reservoir set had to be disconnected and swung out of the way. The timing worked out OK, because I needed to powdercoat the custom mounting bracket that I had made. Now that I see the space available, and the very close proximity of the oil dipstick, it was clear that an alternative location could be advantageous. Becasue of the Flip Top, I have access to areas of the engine compartment that typical builds do not have. One of these is the outboard side of the frame rail. In order to provide maximum access to the oil dipstick, I decided that the best course of action was to turn the reservoir around 180 degrees and mount it on the outside of the frame. The lengths of the various hoses that connect to the MC's required that every hose had to be removed and re attached.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61365&d=1480061846

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61366&d=1480061847

It is time to get started on the dashboard. Because I am doing something unique, I could not use the stock dashboard. I am not going to be using leather or the stuff FFR provides. The material will not be wrapped through the hole, so the holes in the stock dash are too big. I will also be using all Watson Speedworks push button switches, and the holes are all in the wrong places and the wrong sizes.

I purchased a dash blank from FFR when I bought the kit. I began by laying everything out on blank with paper cutouts and tape. Once it was all where I wanted it, I began drilling holes. I started with the indicator lights . They will all be directly above the steering shaft. I began by drilling a pilot hole with a very small drill, then jumped up the the 5/16" hole required for the indicator lights.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61363&d=1480061845

I then moved over to the small gauges. A standard 2" hole saw works perfectly for these holes. Again I used a small pilot hole to assure proper location, then used the hole saw to cut the holes.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61364&d=1480061846

I didn't drill the hole for the clock because I haven't decided if I will install it. I also didn't drill the holes for the oil pressure and oil temp because I haven't decided if I will buy a oil temp gauge . I am waiting to cut the big holes for the speedo and tach. These holes require a 3 7/8" hole saw. Ever tried to buy one of those? Online is your only choice. I ordered one up and it should be here tomorrow. (However, if you want to do this, borrow my hole saw. I am going to cut two holes, then don't ever expect to use it again. I will be happy to loan it out.) I also need to cut 7/8" holes for all the switches. I have a hole saw that size on order as well. I'll have to find something else to do tomorrow.

Railroad

11-25-2016, 10:07 AM

I read where someone forgot to check the clearance behind the dash panel for the gauges and switches. I am sure you plan well.
Looks super!

Jazzman

11-28-2016, 02:23 AM

Great weekend. Only partially spent it working on the car. The kids were all here for the weekend, and all their friends paraded through. They grow up quick. I smoked four turkeys this weekend. My bride cooked far too much, and I will eat nothing but turkey for the next week! Oh well, I love turkey, and gravy, and stuffing, and salads of the fruity variety, and bread and . . . Sorry, I digress.

I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out how to marry the RF ignition system to the Coyote harness and the Watson Streetworks "Hot Dot" ignition system with push button start and RFID security. My head hurts just writing it. I had to make up an excel spreadsheet to keep it all straight. I still have wires that go nowhere, and wires that go to two places at once! I'm going to have to make some calls this week for some help. To keep myself from making the obvious mistakes, I started labeling a lot of items.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61428&d=1480316564

Since I changed direction in mid stream on the tranny cover, I ended up with a partially cut tranny cover. I decided I wanted a fixed attachment point at the center bottom of the dash board. I want to mount some plugs and accessory stuff out of view. I cut off an 8" piece of the narrow end of the previously cut tranny cover. after drilling some holes to attach it both at the dashboard and to the 2" square tube, putting in a couple of holes for plugs, I mounted it in the middle of the dash area.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61427&d=1480316564

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61426&d=1480316564

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61425&d=1480316564

I turned my focus to the uncut tranny cover. I marked and cut the hole for the gear shift, quite a way from the traditional location, but I think it will work well ergonomically. (I still don't know what gear shift lever to add that will fit the Tremec shaft. I want one that is rather short.) I traced and cut a plug for the large hole in the tranny cover. I think I will use JBweld to glue it in place from the back, but I don't have any and have never used it. Any other suggestions? I also want to install a couple of cup holders. (Don't judge, we get thirsty here in AZ!!) Where can I get them and when should I install them?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61429&d=1480316564

Jazzman

11-28-2016, 02:45 AM

The big project this weekend was the dash board. Spoiler alert: Some are going to love it, traditionalists may hate it. So be it. You have been warned! :) I finally decided on a layout. Because I will not be using leather, the holes needed to be different sizes that come on the stock dashboard. The small gauges used a 2" hole saw, and the large ones took a 3.875" hole saw. (It took some doing to find that one!!) Note to anyone buying hole saws. Choose one brand and marry to it! I have two brands of center spindle sections, one from Milwaukee and the other from Dewalt. The holes saws are interchangeable on either spindle, but they will wobble ever so slightly if you put them on the wrong brand of spindle. This isn't much of an issue in wood, but in aluminum it is jarring and you get a slightly oversized hole. Not too big to be a problem, but worth correcting.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61431&d=1480316564

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61430&d=1480316564

I lightly sanded the aluminum face to allow the contact cement to bond more effectively. I then put two coats of contact cement on it. I have decided to do a wood dash using Zebrawood. Since I am a woodworker first, this nod to my background is a personal touch. If I ever sell the car, I may make a more traditional black leather one. After attaching the Zebrawood, I spent a lot of time sanding and prepping the wood. I have laid on two coats of exertior spar urethane, and sanded it with 320 grit sand paper in between. it is coming out very nice. I will probably do three or four more coats of spar urethane to be sure it is fully sealed and UV protected.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61424&d=1480316564

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61423&d=1480316564

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61421&d=1480316564

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61420&d=1480316564

wareaglescott

11-28-2016, 06:16 AM

Dash looks great. Very unique!
How are you planning on mounting it?

edwardb

11-28-2016, 07:51 AM

I traced and cut a plug for the large hole in the tranny cover. I think I will use JBweld to glue it in place from the back, but I don't have any and have never used it. Any other suggestions? I also want to install a couple of cup holders. (Don't judge, we get thirsty here in AZ!!) Where can I get them and when should I install them?

I use my share of J-B Weld and find it useful and quite strong. Rough up both surfaces, make sure they're clean, and you'll get a strong bond. But it's not flexible. In fact quite rigid. So if the joint is flexible, it's pretty likely at some point the J-B Weld will fracture and the joint fail. To fill that hole in the trans tunnel cover, J-B Weld by itself will probably fail because the .040 aluminum is pretty flexible. I would recommend J-B Weld plus some kind of mechanical fastener. I did a similar repair/fill on my build and used McMaster 97530A097 blind rivets around the perimeter every couple inches. They fit into a countersink and work really well.

I put cupholders in my first build with a T-5 transmission. There was enough room in the front for them to fit. I found with the later builds with the TKO, the available space is much less, and didn't install them. You will need to plan carefully and use pretty short holders. With the mid-shift and console you're putting under the dash, I suspect you'll find the available options are even more limited. Sources for cupholders are most any boat supply. They have lots of options, but many will be too big. Another option is search for "poker table cup holder" and you'll see another bunch of options. Just make sure you have them firmly installed. There's quite a bit of air pressure in the transmission tunnel, and they will pop out if you're not careful. Really! ;)

wareaglescott

11-28-2016, 09:15 AM

I also used Pauls recommended blind rivets. They work very well. Not sure how you are covering the trans tunnel but I used them there and they do not show through my padding/leather.

Railroad

11-28-2016, 09:39 AM

Jazzman

11-29-2016, 11:21 PM

Wood is definitely different. I think I like it. It may be too much, but have you considered the top of the trans tunnel in wood? If someone with photo shop ability could put something up. I would like to see it, both the dash and tunnel top.

Just like the Flip Top, a wood dash is a personal choice and a matter of taste. some will like it, others not. Oh well. Yes, I have considered matching the tranny cover:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61505&d=1480479100

I am concerned that it might just be too much. There is also the challenge of rolling the wood across the grain around the edge of the tunnel cover. Zebrawood is rather brittle, and the striations of hard and soft grain make it prone to splitting. I may try a small piece on the remains of the cut up tunnel cover to see if this wood can be bent. My bride thinks it will be "too much" and I am concerned she may be right. I'm going to think about this possibility a bit.

RHITME03

11-30-2016, 08:49 AM

Railroad

11-30-2016, 08:58 AM

With all the black carpet, seats and tunnel sides, it should fit right in. Buy an extra tunnel top, design for easy removal and do both.

Jazzman

12-01-2016, 12:53 AM

Beautiful - great work.

Have you thought about something such as ebony wood as a contrast on the transmission tunnel? The Zebrawood may be a little much. Ebony (or similar) would keep the theme, but wouldn't be as pronounced.

Thank you, RHITME03. Yes, I have considered contrasting woods. My first thoughts were ebony, Bubinga, Cocobolo, or some sort of dark burl. However, when I went looking for the wood, I found this beautiful piece of Zebra wood, there was no ebony, the bubinga just didn't look right, Cocobolo was too dark and dreary, and the burls were just too busy and odd. I decided to try the Zebra wood. My bride says that this will look great as a contrast to a Midnight blue, but also look good with the red pearl I am considering. I am glad I don't have to decide upon a color today!!

Railroad, I will certainly consider that possibility. Since I am already on tunnel top #2, I am not eager to buy a third, but I may do just as you suggest. I am also considering a leather top with some zebrawood accents somewhere. We shall see.

Jazzman

12-02-2016, 01:13 AM

I have been working on wiring in the ignition circuits. It has taken a lot of time, thought, analysis, emails, and phone calls, because I am marrying three different systems. Now before I explain, I need to give some warnings:
1. If you are using the stock RF ignition keyed cylinder, do NOT follow this part of my build. My wire scheme is unique to the different systems that have to be wired together.
2. Don't follow me too closely. I think the notes I am making here are correct, but the engine isn't running yet. Until it is, I don't have confirmation that it is going to work.

The overall plan is to allow the Coyote PCM to control any and all functions that it needs to actually run the engine. I am using the RF wiring harness for most of the wiring outside of the engine compartment, specifically to the four corners of the car, but also other areas behind the firewall. Finally, I wanted to have more modern push button start functions as well as the security of an RFID chip. Watson Streetworks provides a very nice ignition module and an RFID unit. Since I decided to use all the Watson Streetworks switches, buttons, and indicator lights, I decided the matching ignition button was perfect. The challenge is tring to figure out which wires from each setup are critical, which are optional, and which ones are completely redundant and can be fully removed.

I began by temporarily hooking up the RF Key Cylinder to see what was done by each wire. I also spent a lot of time tracing the wires on the FFR wiring instructions schematic to see where each wire went. Remember quite a while ago when I attached all the red wires in the "starter solenoid group" to the switched bus bar? This will come into play in a moment. The first wire to address are the large and small red wires. I found that the larger red wire is powered at all times unless the master disconnect is turned off. (From this point forward, I am not going to remind you about the master disconnect. Just assume that everything goes to the switched bus bar connected to the master disconnect unless I specifically tell you that the power is derived from the HAAT Bus Bar.)

To figure out exactly where this wire went, and whether it split off to other wires, I pulled out an old tool I had not used in years. This little yellow box is a tone generator commonly used to trace telephone wires.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61584&d=1480655572

After you clip it on the wire you need to trace, you need this tool to actually hear the tone:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61585&d=1480655572

by using this listening tool, I can trace exactly which wire goes where. In this case, I discovered that the large red wire that feeds power to the RF ignition switch goes only there, and no where else. This fact is also confirmed by the FFR schematic which shows that the large red wire only goes to Solenoid. Since there is no solenoid in this setup, this wire was attached directly to the switched bus bar. Because the Watson's Streetworks Ignition Module (WSIM) has its own separate power drawn directly from the switched bus bar, there is no need in my setup for Large Red wire.

These two ring terminals are two ends of the same wire, the large red wire.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61583&d=1480655571

The lower ring terminal had previously been attached to the bus bar terminal just behind it that is missing the nut. I clipped both ends of this wire and buried the small remaining piece inside the harness covering.

The small red wire that is attached to the same point on the ignition switch as the large red wire that I have now removed is to provide constant power to the headlight circuits. To simplify that line, I attached the small red wire to switch bus bar. It will still provide constant power, just as it would have if it were connected to the large red wire on the RF ignition switch.

I spent quite a bit of time researching how to correctly hook up the Coyote Fuel Pump Relay (green) wire to the Tan Fuel pump power wire at the RF fuse panel. There has been quite a bit of discussion about the fact that the photo in my version of the installation manual eliminates the function of the inertia (rollover) switch. Since the Coyote harness provides full power to the Fuel Pump Relay wire, I simply wanted to replace the power source from the RF fuse panel to the Coyote harness. I want to retain the RF fuel relay and the functionality of the inertia (rollover) switch. I decide to clip the tan wire at the RF fuse panel just after it comes out of the fuse clip. (I already removed the fuse, and the battery is disconnected!!) By clipping at this point, I am simply replacing the power from the RF fuse with the power provided by the coyote PCM. (Furthermore, if I am wrong, it is easy to clip this wire again, and re-attach it at another point around the relay!)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61586&d=1480655573

In this case I was right. I very briefly applied power to the extended wire which will power the fuel pump. I heard an audible click from the relay, and the fuel pump could be heard. It works!!