818R front suspension adjustment?

[bstuke]

I was at a Match Tour event this weekend and spent a lot of time chatting with EM veterans like Scott Minehart(Stalker) and Steve Brueck(Jeep YC-1) along with a lot of other national class champions.

The one thing that was clear is I do not have any room to adjust the camber more than the .5 degree it is at.

So what are the options? Do I have something wrong? I have a short adjuster and a long adjuster on each side. Both are all the way in.

Thanks for any feedback.

Bob

[Buzz Skyline]

Lots of people have cut the threaded arms of the upper control arm assemblies to create more camber. I don't think there's any other solution.

[bstuke]

I'll post some pictures once I get the car out of the trailer and the front off.

[bstuke]

I also had a suggestion to move the upper arm only back to the street spot instead of the track spot..

[xxguitarist]

Cut the adjuster nuts, cut the studs inside too. IIRC we have -2* front, -3*rear, using aluminum LCA with castor spacer.

[bstuke]

Cut the adjuster nuts, cut the studs inside too. IIRC we have -2* front, -3*rear, using aluminum LCA with castor spacer.Love to see a photo. I don't see how I can get to -2 even cutting stuff and eliminating a jam nut.

BTW what are you running the me otter at or do you AutoX it? Some folks have echoed running somewhat the same alignment front and back.
Front
Caster: 5.0 degrees
Camber: 1.0-1.5 degrees negative
Toe-in: 1/16", 0.15° or 9 arcminutes total (1/32", 0.075° or 4.5 minutes per side)
Rear
Camber: 1.5-2.0 degrees negative
Toe-in: 1/16", 0.15° or 9 arcminutes total (1/32", 0.075° or 4.5 minutes per side)

I will most likely stick with a little toe out in both front and back.

[xxguitarist]

Confirmed via our build thread :-)

-2 camber in the front and -3 rear. We were close to this and ajusted to it based on tire temperatures on hoosier A6/A7.
1/16" toe in rear, 1/8" in front. We'll probably move to less front toe in, since we run mild toe out on the Miata, but originally we had even more. This car doesn't need help to liven it up, it's very active already.

I would avoid static toe out in rear especially.

We have a couple shots of the upper A arms here.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16067-Andrew-amp-Tamra-s-818SR-EM-Autox-Hybrid-Destroked-Long-Rod-Build/page15

[bstuke]

Andrew,

A Picture is worth a thousand words! Thank you.

Yes on the rear toe, 1/16" is what I am going with to start. And 1/8 toe out on the front. And 4.0 caster on the front. And then -2/-3

We had a conversation about how these light EM type cars need to be adjusted in millimeter increments because of the low center and wide tires.

Keep smacking Darren(Spec Jetta) and the rest of those NE folks around, and come see us down here sometime, We got good BBQ and warm weather..

[xxguitarist]

Just to be clear,
We have toe IN on both front and rear!

[D Clary]

42539 I cut the adjuster and the studs, and a 3/8 spacer on the rear lower mount, otherwise I couldn't get close to the caster camber that I was looking for. You might try more tow in on the rear. I am in the 3/16 area. camber really depends on the tire you are using.

[bstuke]

Just to be clear,
We have toe IN on both front and rear!I don't drive on the street so a little toe out will help me through turns.


42539 I cut the adjuster and the studs, and a 3/8 spacer on the rear lower mount, otherwise I couldn't get close to the caster camber that I was looking for. You might try more tow in on the rear. I am in the 3/16 area. camber really depends on the tire you are using.Thanks for the picture and feedback. I have 285/30-18 on the back, so I am going to start with a little and work from there.

[xxguitarist]

I don't drive on the street so a little toe out will help me through turns.


We have front toe out on the miata, and it helps a lot. We may try toe out on the 818 also, but from our driving to date, it did not need any assistance rotating at autox, and we wanted to encourage a little more mild handling.


http://youtu.be/dD8T1fgu3KY

[bstuke]

I dropped almost 3 seconds just from better rotation with a little toe out this weekend, basically a second a a turn! Once I get the camber straightened out I am going to get it completely aligned at Gran Toursimo East, and then I can make minor adjustments from there. Trying to recover my video, something happened to my memory card in my GoPro.

[D Clary]

You do not want toe out in the rear.

[bstuke]

You do not want toe out in the rear.correct..

[C.Plavan]

If you need even more front camber (Hoosiers), you can wobble out the top hole on the upper ball joint bracket. Then push the spindle in.

Toe out in the front is good. I noticed that also. 1/8 out for me, and I also have 3/16 toe in in the rear. I may trim the car out to 1/16 toe out front, and 1/8 toe in rear for high speed tracks to see if there is a difference.

[C.Plavan]

I dropped almost 3 seconds just from better rotation with a little toe out this weekend, basically a second a a turn! Once I get the camber straightened out I am going to get it completely aligned at Gran Toursimo East, and then I can make minor adjustments from there. Trying to recover my video, something happened to my memory card in my GoPro.

Put the card back in the gopro, and try to watch it from there. The Gopro will try and fix the corrupted file.

[bstuke]

If you need even more front camber (Hoosiers), you can wobble out the top hole on the upper ball joint bracket. Then push the spindle in.

Toe out in the front is good. I noticed that also. 1/8 out for me, and I also have 3/16 toe in in the rear. I may trim the car out to 1/16 toe out front, and 1/8 toe in rear for high speed tracks to see if there is a difference.Thanks for the feedback and tips. I think I have a good starting point. After getting the car back in the garage and looking at it I think there is a change in the height from side to side as well. I wonder now if I set it with a spring not seated. The adjuster is locked.


Put the card back in the gopro, and try to watch it from there. The Gopro will try and fix the corrupted file.Yep tried that. Something with the Hero4 is not letting it do that and it just says SD card error. I did find a program that will recover them.

[bstuke]

This is the passenger side.

What do you think?

It looks pretty close to the pictures posted. I am kinda worried about trimming the short aluminum sleeve, and may order the steel pieces as an alternative..
42561

[xxguitarist]

Assuming similar control arm width, that should result in more camber than we were after. We have both lock nuts still, and the aluminum is cut just inside the no-flats section on both ends.

[bstuke]

Assuming similar control arm width, that should result in more camber than we were after. We have both lock nuts still, and the aluminum is cut just inside the no-flats section on both ends.Cool, exactly what I did.

[bstuke]

Just got back from Gran Tourismo East. I was able to get close to what I was looking for. The alignment guy and owner Jeff(aligning performance vehicles and race cars for over 30 years) had some suggestions:

Switch to steel adjusters. They will offer more strength. I had done that on the Cobra as well.

Consider drilling the pinion mount and using the offset WRX bolt. Wayne recommended this as well and I am looking into it.

Consider moving the LCA to the lower spot to reduce the ackerman. I do have a bump steer kit and even with it the ackerman is still way off. The FF suggestion is a longer bolt, but it almost feels like the bolt would be so long it would flex.

Since I can't run the wing in EM I might also put a 400lb spring on the front and move the 300lb to the back.

We will see after this weekend.

Thanks for all the feedback!

[D Clary]

Moving the control arm down wont change the ackerman. It is built into the spindle and steering arm

[bstuke]

It actually looks like it will put them more parallel..

[Bob_n_Cincy]

It actually looks like it will put them more parallel..
Bob
I'm do not know much about suspension. I think if you move your LCA to the bottom hole, it will lower your roll center. This will cause more body roll.
Any body want to back me up on this or shoot me down?
Bob

[bstuke]

I do not know much about suspension.ME EITHER!!!!!

I do understand what D_Clary is saying, although having them in the same plane is at least better than they are now and will reduce the extreme amount of toe change in between braking and acceleration. I also have no idea if the roll center change has that much affect on a 1700lb car with extremely grippy tires and an already low roll center.

I am also at 4" height on the front so that makes it worse as well. Too bad the rack position is not adjustable.

On a positive note the alignment guys were very impressed with the rear setup and adjust-ability. The car is at least square now.

I was thoroughly impressed with their Hunter Hawkeye Elite alignment system. They even had a floor mounted monitor so when they were making adjustments under they car they could see real time updates. Very nice.

Here is a video of the system, I was pretty geeked up over it:

http://youtu.be/ftZHNqIn_VU

[Hindsight]

Too bad the rack position is not adjustable.

You can probably raise the rack a fair amount. You just can't lower it. I made some brackets that I'm selling at cost that allow you to properly mount the rack to the frame. You could simply add a spacer under them (just a piece of aluminum in whatever thickness you want with holes drilled through it for the bolts). There should be enough room to move it up nearly an inch before it hits the frame, and you can move the steering column in and out as much as needed to compensate for the shift in the rack. I don't know if an inch or so will get you to where you need to be but thought I'd pass along the option.

[D Clary]

Just buy a bump steer kit. You can reduce the bump steer to less than .015"

[bstuke]

Just buy a bump steer kit. You can reduce the bump steer to less than .015"Got one of those bumpy steer kits, still off about 2"..

[D Clary]

How are you off 2 inches ? do you have a bump steer guage, what is your ride height? I am in the R mounting at 4 inch ride height. The bump steer spacers are about 1 7/16 inch. There isn't 2 inches there to bee off. If you don't have a gauge you need to get one. Ackerman is a line drawn from the lower ball joint, through the outer tie rod end to the center of the rear end. Due to the change in wheel base our Ackerman will be off. What the Ackerman does is allow the inside tire to turn at a sharper radius than the outside. Without changing the wheel base or spindle arm it is not adjustable. Changing the roll center will change the handling characteristics of the car. It will change the roll stiffness and the effective spring rate. So lowering the roll center is effectively weakening the springs allowing more roll. If you increase the spring rate to make up for this you will get a harsher ride as the vertical effective spring rate is not changed by the roll center.

[bstuke]

I'll post some pictures this evening.

[C.Plavan]

How long are the spacers you made for the bumpsteer kit? They should be around 2 7/16" long.

http://i.imgur.com/jTktFMRl.jpg

[bstuke]

How long are the spacers you made for the bumpsteer kit? They should be around 2 7/16" long.What size and length bolt? Does it flex any?

[D Clary]

Sorry I said 1 7/16 Chads right it is 2 7/16 It is a 3/4 bolt no flex in the bolt though it does add a twisting force to the steering arm. I have a similar spacer on my Mustang no problem for many miles of street and track.

[bstuke]

Sorry I said 1 7/16 Chads right it is 2 7/16 It is a 3/4 bolt no flex in the bolt though it does add a twisting force to the steering arm. I have a similar spacer on my Mustang no problem for many miles of street and track.OK cool, on it! Pictures in a few. Just finishing up the UCA.

[bstuke]

428844288542886

[D Clary]

Is you're car at ride height? I f you're ride height is higher than 4 inches the spacer will have to be longer. You need a bump steer gauge The sell them at Longacre and Speedway motors they are not expensive and in my opinion a must have. You can take mine or Chads measurement and use it but to be close you need to measure. The difference in the spacer could be 10 or 20 thousandths.

[Mitch Wright]

I used a 5/8 bolt.

[C.Plavan]

I used a 5/8" bolt (grade 8). You have to drill out the spindle hole to 5/8th's. I put together a thread a while ago how to do it. Had to be last summer I believe.

Since then the R supplemental has the info in it.

[D Clary]

I was wrong again it is 5/8.

[bstuke]

I was wrong again it is 5/8.No worries, I already have spacers, so I will work on it next week and get it back to the alignment shop.

[C.Plavan]

428844288542886

Yeah- Just throw those spacers that came with the kit away, they are in no way long enough. Just keep the really thin ones if you need to fine tune. You need to make them out of metal pipe.


Edit: I found the guide I made:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14526-818R-Baer-Bumpsteer-Install-Guide

[D Clary]

I made mine out of aluminum round stock, drilled it out on the lathe.

[bstuke]

Always something! I did a lot better this Sunday and am gaining ground on my National class EM counterparts. I went to change spring rates and an old MK2 UCA challenge bit me again! It seems that the way FFR wants to plate positioned is no limiting my movement. I couldn't figure out why my shock would not uncompress, and quickly realize the upper ball joint is hitting the plate and stopping movement. Back to the drawing board...
4294142942

[xxguitarist]

Are these photos at full droop?
What's the angle of the ball joint at ride height?

We are pretty low, but have our upper A arms in the "S" position. No binding at either end.

[bstuke]

That is full droop. Not sure what you mean by "S Position". And I am sober! :rolleyes:

I am running right at 4" but was going to go up a little because of rub.

[bstuke]

The "Rub"...

42943

[xxguitarist]

The 818 S position is where you have the stack of washers.

We are also at 4", the upper A arm is roughly level at static ride height

[bstuke]

The 818 S position is where you have the stack of washers.

We are also at 4", the upper A arm is roughly level at static ride heightAh! After a few beers, I get it. Is that a problem?

I already have the spindle apart and am waiting for the "beast" Bosch impact wrench to charge so I can try and get the ball joint off. I am still considering putting the upper in the S position though...

[C.Plavan]

Ask FFR to send you the correct UCA's. The ball joint "ring" should be flat, not at an angle like yours. Especially for an 818R.

42946

This is an old picture of mine. I'm out of town so that's the best I could do.

My rubbing is way worse. I let my tires "self clearance" after a few laps.

You have everything correct, do not change to the S position, just get the correct UCA's so the ball joint does not hit it.

The front tires will always be an issue on the 818. They will either rub on the inside, or outside, or both. They really should of designed it for real world tire sizes.....

[bstuke]

I just don't understand why Dave bothers sending them out. It was the exact same problem with the Cobra. Anyway, I am going to try and get them off and flip them. Otherwise it is off to Summit for new ones.

[Scargo]

Is this the way it always is with a new kit car? RE, my 818R, I asked FFR to just tack-weld my front end because I didn't want to use Subaru components there. They refused. I didn't want the Koni shocks. In addition, they send me all kinds of crap that I will never use or it is just not good enough for my race car. Some of it requires modding.
Is this just the beta stage where we are the Guinea pigs? Instead of getting a discount or consideration, because we are pigs, we end up spending more money and it taking us more time to get it right.
I really think FFR needs a new business model for their kits with a "cafeteria plan" for the people that want to pick and choose. After all, in most instances, they are just pulling parts off the shelf.
Their "take it or leave it" approach leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I don't think it is necessary for them to be so rigid and still turn a decent profit.

[D Clary]

This is kind of the model that they have been using for a while. While there are changes you can make, to stop production and do a one off takes time. When you are trying to get cars out as quickly as possible you just can't stop and make one different. That is how kit cars are. Perhaps when the backlog isn't a year they will have time or inclination to do things differently. There are many compromises in this car to make it a one donor car. Most everyone has strayed a bit, some more that others. I have a very large stack of new unused parts, But guess what? I have a huge stack of new unused parts from every project I have ever done. Try mouth wash

[Scargo]

I will try the mouthwash idea. Perhaps I will just swish my scotch around a bit more!
I understand what you are saying. I had a business (but mine was all custom work!). I tried negotiating with FFR about the welding. It would have been less work for them, but in the end they did not want the liability or having anyone confused or having to think an extra amount about it. I don't think what I asked for would have stopped production.

[bstuke]

I wasn't trying to start an argument, I was simply being Captain Obvious. Or maybe Captain Oblivious? Could they not have simply supplied the R with the zero degree unit? According to Chad they do have them...

That is all.

[bstuke]

And one down and one to go, man it is hot!

This is the driver side at full droop. I flipped the plate, which is what I did on the Cobra, and now I am back to around 8" of unimpeded travel. Although I will never use that much, I do have all the travel I need.
42988


This is with tension, basically what ride height should look close to with the wheels back on and the car on the ground. So back where I started, needing to adjust ride height!
42989

A side view to show the ball joint in the right plane and direction.
42990

Not sure how I missed this before. I guess it looked OK with 1/2 degree of camber! I also replaced all the aluminum adjusters with steel.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

And one down and one to go, man it is hot!

This is the driver side at full droop. I flipped the plate, which is what I did on the Cobra, and now I am back to around 8" of unimpeded travel. Although I will never use that much, I do have all the travel I need.


Hi Bob
The shock only has 4" of travel without the bump stop rubber.
11" to 15" inches if I remember correctly.
Bob

[bstuke]

Hi Bob
The shock only has 4" of travel without the bump stop rubber.
11" to 15" inches if I remember correctly.
BobYou are correct. You will be hard pressed to reach maximum compression travel with the shock and spring in place. My measurement was without the shock. I was basically deceived with the shock in place, I could not figure out why oh why the suspension would not uncompress enough to remove the shock. It stayed loaded, which tipped me off to the same problem I had with the Cobra..

[bstuke]

I also suspect this problem is causing a push as the inboard front wheel could not stay planted.

[Scargo]

Anze tested my red Konis and as I recall they only had 3-3/4" of travel.

[bstuke]

Anze tested my red Konis and as I recall they only had 3-3/4" of travel.Something like that. bottom line is I need travel above AND below the center of the at rest axis(Did I say that correctly?). Passenger side is done, reset the ride height to 4.25" and off to the races this weekend! Oh and 500lb springs front and 450lb back. I may shoot some suspension video as well.

[bstuke]

Brokety broke. Left rear wheel bearing.

[bstuke]

Here is some suspension video from this weekends SEDIV AutoX event. I only got a run or two in as the left rear bearing was letting go. The push was significantly reduced and the car handled much better. I was actually keeping up with faster cars and better drivers until the bearing problem. I am thinking of just pulling the tranny to get ready to put in an LSD considering I already have one side off.

http://youtu.be/sJjc6lTDx14

[Buzz Skyline]

Awesome angle! I love watching suspension videos.

Did you decide to leave off the aluminum panels that go in front of the front wheels?

[Tamra]

What did you end up with for alignment settings? Glad it went well. Sorry to hear about the bearing.

[bstuke]

Awesome angle! I love watching suspension videos.

Did you decide to leave off the aluminum panels that go in front of the front wheels?What Panels?:cool:

[bstuke]

What did you end up with for alignment settings? Glad it went well. Sorry to hear about the bearing.Not done yet but current -2.8, 1/8 toe out(don't get me started!) and 4 on caster. I have most of the new pieces in place and we should get to 3 or so camber, more caster, more tire pressure and no push with an Quaife LSD.

PS. Congrats on the great showing in Toledo! Awesome job!

[Buzz Skyline]

What Panels?:cool:

I was thinking of ditching mine too.

[Tamra]

Not done yet but current -2.8, 1/8 toe out(don't get me started!) and 4 on caster. I have most of the new pieces in place and we should get to 3 or so camber, more caster, more tire pressure and no push with an Quaife LSD.

PS. Congrats on the great showing in Toledo! Awesome job!

-2.8 all around? I won't ask on the toe :) FYI, we have -2 camber on the front and tire temps show that it's pretty good. -3 on the rear.

Thank you :) Toledo was terrible on Saturday (3" of rain fell and we had wind gusts knocking down trees. They actually cancelled the 2nd heat. I literally hydroplaned the autocross course all day, which was interesting). Sunday was perfect weather, blue skies, dry concrete (leftover puddles in the morning for my runs but not terrible). I'm pretty excited about how I did. It was a lot of fun.

[bstuke]

-2.8 all around? I won't ask on the toe :) FYI, we have -2 camber on the front and tire temps show that it's pretty good. -3 on the rear.

Thank you :) Toledo was terrible on Saturday (3" of rain fell and we had wind gusts knocking down trees. They actually cancelled the 2nd heat. I literally hydroplaned the autocross course all day, which was interesting). Sunday was perfect weather, blue skies, dry concrete (leftover puddles in the morning for my runs but not terrible). I'm pretty excited about how I did. It was a lot of fun.I heard about the deluge, nice. Yep 3 on the back and a little toe in. The back was easy and is now square with the front. We basically ran out of room to adjust the front so left it at 2.8. Wear is better but my temp probe quit so not sure how much better and where we need to go from there. Hopefully the wheel bearing will be fixed and I can attend a two day event in two weeks.

[johngeorge]

bstuke, so all you did was flip the upper control arms left to right and that resolved your issue? You may have gotten the beta UCAs with your beta kit, dont think the same arms are shipped in production kit.

[bstuke]

bstuke, so all you did was flip the upper control arms left to right and that resolved your issue? You may have gotten the beta UCAs with your beta kit, dont think the same arms are shipped in production kit.Hey John, there are actually only two, a 10 and 0 degree plate. Not sure why I got the 10. I did put it in per the manual(maybe my problem is RTFM?!) and it was fine until I tried to crank in -3 camber. Switching and flipping them certainly aligned the ball joint better, but I suspect the 0 degree plate would work as well. I ended up using the 0 degree plate on the MK2 as it lined up best at -3 camber and a little different geometry that the MK2 has. All is good now.

[bstuke]

Too much camber in the front?
43442

Bearing replaced, and huge thanks to team mechanic Joe Camire for taking care of it. Two day event this weekend, I hope it holds together!

[philly15]

-2.8 all around? I won't ask on the toe :) FYI, we have -2 camber on the front and tire temps show that it's pretty good. -3 on the rear.

I'm curious, why so much more negative camber in the rear?

[Tamra]

I'm curious, why so much more negative camber in the rear?

When we probed the tires, -3 rear and -2 front was what gave us the ideal temperatures across the tires (combined with finding the right pressures), and ideal tire wear. We do have the 500 lb springs on the front, 300 lb rear. It also made the car handle more neutrally.

Camber should be set to make the tire temperatures happy given the weight balance and spring force. Then set tire pressure to adjust center (higher pressure) or shoulder (lower pressure) temperature bias.

[philly15]

Did you test the tire temperature just on an auto x course? Or was there more extensive testing involved? I understand the neutral setup though. Athough my springs are swapped 350 F 500 R

[Tamra]

When we probed the tires, it was during a 60 second autocross course with three runs in fairly quick succession, and we checked between each run. This was running Hoosiers.

We then did an autocross school where we got about 60 minutes (combined) seat time on an autocross course where we chalked the tires, and the wear looked excellent. We also burned up the tires completely by the end of that school, but they wore evenly! The school was on 200tw street tires (they went into the school close to the wear bars already - we didn't completely toast them in one day).

[philly15]

thanks that was my next question, on what you were using for tires. Im trying to get a baseline on where i want to be. We have an auto cross on the 18th and a lapping day on the 19th this month to test further. I just wanted to compare where im at now since your car has seen some solid track time. I think right now, my setup is 350 F 500 R spring rate, -3.3 F camber, -2.3 R camber, +6.0 Front caster, and i believe 3/16 toe in in the rear and 1/8 toe out in the front. All i have to go on is street/parking lot driving so it's hard to push it.

[Tamra]

I imagine you will find it quite a bit more oversteer biased than our set up. Good luck and have fun! Report back with how it goes!

[philly15]

I imagine you will find it quite a bit more oversteer biased than our set up. Good luck and have fun! Report back with how it goes!

Will do thanks for the info!

[bstuke]

Getting Better! The 818R has potential, but won't ever make it in EM in national competition. And unfortunately I have a nationally competitive EM car her in ATL. I was within 3 seconds and that is a personal best. I ended up 9th raw time out of 130.

[Tamra]

Which event did you go to this weekend? Any videos?

[bstuke]

As you already know EM pax stinks, so here are raw times for Solo Atlanta points 6.
43554

DNF video...

http://youtu.be/6qgmMm5vhcw

PS. No LSD so the car gets squirrely very quickly..:cool:

[Mitch Wright]

Philly,

I wouldn't be surprised if your Track spring set up and AutoX set up is different just because of how the car is loaded and transfers weight. Also the Aero on the track will have a bigger effect due to the higher speeds.
It is fun watching the directions you all have taken, along with what Chad has done on the track.

[Tamra]

Bstuke, were you not off course in that run? Definitely looked like you got sideways a bit! 3 seconds off of the yellow jeep is pretty good, considering your car doesn't have aero yet, you mentioned no lsd, I believe your hp output is pretty low (under 250 whp, right?).

The jeep you are up against weighs 1750lbs with a driver, and is making 400whp/wtq, with very experienced drivers behind the wheel. That's a tough car to compare against!

[bstuke]

Yes it was a DNF. 230HP. I uploaded the wrong one! LSD getting installed in the next few weeks. The Jeep is EM as well so I have no choice. Minehart and Kiesel are even faster..

[bstuke]

Here is my forth run, which was pretty good but didn't count...


http://youtu.be/op0KG4bvhlk