Leaking Oil

[jaw777]

When my engine was out of my donor I did some routine maintenance to save myself some frustration later. This included a new oil pan, timing belt, water pump, oil pump, rear seal, and valve cover gaskets. I did not notice any oil leaking when it was in the donor.

I was pretty proud of myself when I hooked up my dieted wiring harness and it started up. However, now I am leaking oil and pretty significantly. My first step was to replace the oil cooler ring. This is lots of fun with the coolant system full and not an ideal way to drain it. That reduced some of the leak, but some oil and a fair amount is still leaking from the timing belt cover. :mad:

So I have ordered a new crank shaft seal, cam shaft seals, pcv valve, and oil pump seal.

My first question is there anything else I should do to try to make sure this thing does not leak any more oil? And is there anything I am planning on doing that is a lot of work and unnecessary? I am not a mechanic or a Subie guy, but I have the tools, follow the manuals and I find a way to get it done.

My second question is, and I think I know the answer, but I am in denial, do I need to pull the engine to perform this work? I suspect I will have to, but I dread undoing all of my work. Has anyone tried to perform these types of repairs with the engine in the car?

Thanks for your feedback.

[wallace18]

It will be much easier to pull the engine. Do yourself a favor and take off the timing belt covers if you can to locate the leak first. You could even start it up with the cover off if that helps you locate the leak or leaks. That way you will be sure of the source, IMO.

[xxguitarist]

We have done an oil pump swap with the engine in the car. It wasn't especially fun, certainly not as easy as when it was on the stand, but it's plenty doable.

I'd first pull off the outer timing covers, the driver side will require some finessing around the coolant line.
Have a look at where you're actually leaking from, turn engine to tdc before removing the belt (assuming it's necessary)

If you're lucky, maybe its something like oil weeping past the corners of the valve cover gaskets- are you pretty confident in your RTV job there & on the back of the oil pump? Remember the O-ring on the oil pump?

[STiPWRD]

+1 for the suggestions so far and finding the source of the leak. It sounds like you may have forgotten to install the seal on the new oil pump? This may be the case if the leak is coming from the center of the timing cover. If it's around the edges, it may be a bad cam shaft seal.

Did you install a firewall between the gas tank and the engine? You could try removing the firewall behind the seats and removing the gas tank to see if you can access the timing covers easier.

[dirty kurty]

It will be much easier to pull the engine. Do yourself a favor and take off the timing belt covers if you can to locate the leak first. You could even start it up with the cover off if that helps you locate the leak or leaks. That way you will be sure of the source, IMO.
Slightly off topic: Is there a good reason to even use the timing belt covers in the 818? In the subie that area can get quite dirty but in the 818 with the very small gap to the firewall I would think the amount of dirt/debris entering that area will be minimal. Sorry if I am missing somthing obvious.

[wallace18]

Slightly off topic: Is there a good reason to even use the timing belt covers in the 818? In the subie that area can get quite dirty but in the 818 with the very small gap to the firewall I would think the amount of dirt/debris entering that area will be minimal. Sorry if I am missing somthing obvious.
It would be very costly if something got in the belts and made it jump and bend all the valves because you did not want to put the covers on IMO. Call it cheap insurance.

[Tamra]

We did the oil pump with the gas tank in, upper firewall off.. It was no problem to remove the covers, just a little annoying.

[jaw777]

Thanks for all the feedback. I will try removing the firewall first and see how it goes. It has been a while since the did the oil pump. I'll be honest, I don't remember the oil pump ring. If it came with the pump I probably did it. If not, I probably didn't.

[xxguitarist]

Thanks for all the feedback. I will try removing the firewall first and see how it goes. It has been a while since the did the oil pump. I'll be honest, I don't remember the oil pump ring. If it came with the pump I probably did it. If not, I probably didn't.

A new oil pump does not come with the (about quarter sized) O ring that goes behind it, nor the large seal that goes in front of it, around the crank..
You did apply RTV (silicone, hondabond, etc) to the pump surfaces, right?

[STiPWRD]

Step 30 shows the process for installing the oil pump
38891

I was worried I forgot to do the same thing but I did follow the FSM so just had to make sure

[jaw777]

I did use the rtv to seal the surfaces of the oil pump, but I know I did not replace the crank shaft seal and probably not the oil pump ring. I guess that is what I'll be doing next weekend if the temperature warms up.

I'll start it up with the timing belt cover off to see if the cam shaft seals are leaking. If they're not, I will try to do the work with the engine in the car.

Thanks to everyone for the help.

[xxguitarist]

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/supermechanic/2012-03-09_005758_pump.gif

If you swapped over part 1 above from your old pump to the new one, I'd definitely expect that could be your leak.

Part 10 is the o-ring, and it fits into a little recess in the block. If it is dislodged, i'd expect a leak to be possible, and maybe low pressure too.

Good luck!

[jaw777]

Thanks xxguitarist. I don't think I swapped over or installed part 1. At least I don't remember doing it.

I am pretty sure that I did part 10. I'm gonna find out this weekend if it warms up.

[Mechie3]

I blew a motor once when #10 got pinched on an install.

[rjh2pd]

Make sure you lube your o-rings when you install them to keep from pinching or tearing them.

[Mechie3]

My problem was silicone on the wrong part of the oil pump. Displaced the print when putting it on. Never made that mistake again.

[jaw777]

OK - you can remove the timing belt covers with the engine in the car, but I doubt you can be sure to have your engine top dead center unless you remove your firewall. So I spent a over a day trying to determine exactly where the leak is and I am not 100% sure. I did start the car and look, but I couldn't see anything obvious and I couldn't let it run too long because I had to drain the antifreeze and remove the hoses to get the timing belt cover off.

No apparent leaks around the oil pump I replaced. After looking at my order I believe it came with the ring installed. No apparent leaks around the valve cover gaskets that I replaced. It appears to be leaking from behind the lower passenger side cam shaft seal, but it is leaking through the back of the timing belt cover as opposed to the front where I would have expected. It leaks quite a bit and more so after I shut the engine off. Can anyone confirm that I am heading in the correct direction? Is there anything else it could be at this location?

I was debating on trying to fix it with the engine in the car, but I gave up when I realized I wouldn't be comfortable with getting the timing belt back in correctly. Getting the engine out only took a couple of hours for a non-mechanic. Removing my fire wall with all the electrical stuff mounted to it and working on it in the car seemed like it would have been more work. It was more discouraging than difficult to remove it for a guy who had his wiring at about 85% and was looking forward to driving his go kart.

So the engine is out.

I am ordering the tool to hold the cam shafts while you loosen them. I ordered a bunch of seals, but I was only planning on replacing the ones on the passenger side where the leak is because that side is not under tension at top dead center. (seems easier) Any advice, tips, tricks or things to avoid would be greatly appreciated. Anything else I should consider replacing while I am there? I am a "if it is complicated and not broke, don't fix it" kind of a guy. So removing the oil pump to replace the crank shaft seal seems really unappealing. Replacing the head gasket seems like it would be pretty rough as well. Thanks for the help.

[STiPWRD]

It may be the valve cover seal around the cam shafts. In addition to the cam seals, you may want to replace the valve cover seal. Be sure to use some liquid gasket or silicone at the corners where the valve cover gasket curves up and goes around the cams.

[Tamra]

If you have a scrap timing belt, you can use it and clamp it down to hold the cams in place while you loosen them, if you want to spare the cost of the specialty tools.

The oil pump is simple - undo the bolts and knock it off the block (you have to break the sealant). However, if it isn't leaking then you're probably fine. However, you have the remove the crank pulley, which is significantly easier if the engine is still in the car and you can use the brakes rather than the specialty tool to hold it in place while torquing it back on... The specialty tool is very easy to use, but you have to buy/borrow/make one if the engine is out of the car.

Good luck! Hope it's an easy fix.

[jaw777]

I thought I would let everyone know how this turned out. I pulled the engine to find out it was leaking out of the valve cover. I had replaced it when I took it out of the donor, but apparently this was my first valve cover gasket to leak. I think the problem may have been exacerbated by a minor blockage in the oil return. When I removed the cover there was quite a bit of oil backed up in the valve cover.

So the good news is that the oil leak is fixed. The bad news is that I replaced the motor mounts while the engine was out and I twisted the studs off the new mounts trying to get to the 62 ft. Lbs. of torque. I broke a vacuum nozzle off of the intake putting the engine back in and now the transmission won't go back into neutral.

Having fun now!

[longislandwrx]

It may be the valve cover seal around the cam shafts. In addition to the cam seals, you may want to replace the valve cover seal. Be sure to use some liquid gasket or silicone at the corners where the valve cover gasket curves up and goes around the cams.

Hmm I didn't know this... I just did the valve cover gasket on my DD and didn't use silicone. Just new bolt grommets, spark plug seals and gaskets. I wonder if it will leak.

[Tamra]

The FSM calls for liquid gasket on the valve covers.

Also, the engine mount torque is only 25.8 ft-lbs! Did you torque the metal plates to the block at the same 62 ft-lbs? If so you may want to make sure you didn't damage your block. The metal is very soft.

[metalmaker12]

Tamra is correct and it will leak.

[jaw777]

I torqued the mounts to the engine at 25 and 30 ft. lbs. and used thread lock I don't think I did any damage to the block. The same information told me that it was 62 ft. lbs. to the frame.

Are you saying that the torque spec to the frame is 25 ft. lbs. also?

[Tamra]

Sorry, misunderstanding on which one. It is 28 to the block, and 62 to the frame, however you are not alone in messing up the bolts according to Nasioc. We are going lower than that. Also, the FFR manual just calls for 28 ft lbs - perhaps an error?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Here is a Subaru document
39701

[longislandwrx]

Tamra is correct and it will leak.

well ****. I need to do an oil change anyway. best weekend ever.

edit...


seems to be some conflicting info...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2331301

scotty says no, wolf and manual say yes. I am just going to check it and see if its leaking.

[jaw777]

My oil leak has returned and in the process I created another problem I am hoping someone can help with.

My problem is that the oil is staying in the valve cover. It seems the engine is not breathing properly allowing it to drain back down to the pan. Eventually it causes a leak in the valve cover gasket. I have already replaced the pcv valve and made sure none of the vapor lines are blocked or kinked. If anybody has any ideas that would be a help.

Secondly, while searching for a solution to my oil leak I found that some of these models have a problem with a screen filter in a banjo bolt getting blocked and burning up turbo chargers. So I tried to remove this banjo bolt to verify that the screen had been removed. Well I made a mistake and "loosened" the turbo coolant line banjo bolt. The problem is that it didn't loosen so much as just twisted off. I have not be able to identify this part no. or where I can buy it. If anyone can send me in the right direction that would be appreciated. Any ideas on how to remove the remainder of the bolt would be appreciated as well.

This project is starting to feel like work!

[STiPWRD]

The turbo coolant banjo bolts are not sold individually from subaru. Here are 2 suggestions: 1.) Remove the other coolant banjo bolt, measure it and buy a generic one that will fit, it's probably M12 or similar and available on Ebay, 2.) There are many that have upgraded their turbo (including me) and will probably send you the banjo bolts off their old TD04, pm me if interested. I had to figure out and buy a bunch of banjo bolts and fittings for my 18G.

[bimmerbill]

Make sure you put some loctite on the screws holding the pump cover if you have the oil pump out. They can losen and cause loss of oil pressure. On the 2.2L I rebuilt several were backed out about 1/4"!