ez30r questions

[3000gttom]

so im trying to find information regarding the ez30r motor. im looking all over the internet but maybe someone here knows or can point me in the right direction

i'm really interested in doing an 818 build but only if i can do a high revving H6 and i mean like 9k rpms

from everything i know about the motor, some ITB's and properly designed headers, along with high rev valve springs might really bring this thing to life... but my biggest concerns are:

how does the oiling system hold up? dry sump necessary?

and

is the same level of ecu tuning available as the turbo motors? avcs avls control? (this is essential to get the cams in sync with the header pulses)


any answers would be great or even if you could point me to a forum where ez30r guys mainly are at (nasioc seems rather shallow in info for these)

thanks
tom

[flynntuna]

I'm looking at this option as a possible direction to go. My son wants to go the turbo route( he has a power jones) ;) but if 250-270 hp can be rung out of a NA ez30 then the sound of that six thru dual exhaust will be the deciding factor. I've got the checkbook for this build. :rolleyes:

Nasioc has a number of threads with swaps using the ez30. Here's one...

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrSbgS_t.5TlT0AW8TBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTE0dWYwdjh tBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1RBVVMwNzBfM Q--/RV=2/RE=1408182336/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fforums.nasioc.com%2fforums%2fshowt hread.php%3ft%3d1697340%26page%3d2/RK=0/RS=VE2WWnrBDCL9xZVYHn5Sq5vzh9w-

[3000gttom]

I'm looking at this option as a possible direction to go. My son wants to go the turbo route( he has a power jones) ;) but if 250-270 hp can be rung out of a NA ez30 then the sound of that six thru dual exhaust will be the deciding factor. I've got the checkbook for this build. :rolleyes:

Nasioc has a number of threads with swaps using the ez30. Here's one...

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrSbgS_t.5TlT0AW8TBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTE0dWYwdjh tBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1RBVVMwNzBfM Q--/RV=2/RE=1408182336/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fforums.nasioc.com%2fforums%2fshowt hread.php%3ft%3d1697340%26page%3d2/RK=0/RS=VE2WWnrBDCL9xZVYHn5Sq5vzh9w-

ohh well 250hp should be pretty easy... these results from what i understand are just headers+ exhaust

http://www.xtremeracingtuning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=467&p=1433&hilit=raptor#p1433

they have 232 hp (173kw) at the wheels, and not to mention they show the a/f ratio dipping all the way down to 12.0... if they held it in the low 13's at higher rpm's they would get even more power

also keep in mind this is on the big heavy 4wd outback... with the 818 only using 2wd there will be much less drive train loss

you could probably hit 250 whp with the stock motor, long tube headers and a good tune

im really trying to find a high rev build though as im hoping for closer to 300 whp

[Wayne Presley]

9000 rpm will be tough since you would have to have custom cams and some serious port work. I think you could get 300 RWHP out of of the shelf cams, higher compression and porting out of a EZ30.

[flynntuna]

Long tube headers and a tune may be as far as I'm willing to go with an ez 30. Cams and port work like Wayne suggested is not the direction I'd go unless a rebuild was needed anyway.

I've seen various designs of headers on line, but I'm thinking something custom will most likely needed.

[3000gttom]

9000 rpm will be tough since you would have to have custom cams and some serious port work. I think you could get 300 RWHP out of of the shelf cams, higher compression and porting out of a EZ30.

i really dont think cams or porting are necessary... i have no hard source for the cam specs other than this forum post here (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2329182) but these are very believable numbers for the high lift cam profile... 10.7 to one compression is already high enough

300hp may be a stretch but i think the right intake setup with the right exhaust could get close... from what i see the specs of the internals seem quite friendly for higher revs as long as the oiling can hold up

[Sgt.Gator]

Having raced a Legacy GT for a season, and watched the other Subarus I race against, I'm 80% in the camp with ya'll that the way to go will be some version of an H6. I know nothing bout the H6 platform, but I'm starting to learn quick. I do know that racing a turbo HJ257 has lots of complexities, and racing is already complicated enough. I'll keep racing my Legacy GT, but for a new 818R the NA route is calling me strongly.

[3000gttom]

Having raced a Legacy GT for a season, and watched the other Subarus I race against, I'm 80% in the camp with ya'll that the way to go will be some version of an H6. I know nothing bout the H6 platform, but I'm starting to learn quick. I do know that racing a turbo HJ257 has lots of complexities, and racing is already complicated enough. I'll keep racing my Legacy GT, but for a new 818R the NA route is calling me strongly.

i have been thinking about this for racing too... being the stroke is so short (80mm) there is almost no worry of revving the block way up because piston speeds will stay down.. i know the one guy that is racing 3000gt's with a motor with an 86mm stroke is revving to 12k easily with a custom dry sump oiling system

the way the oil pan mounts on a flat surface would make a dry sump easier to fabricate for the ez30, there is nothing restricting the path of itb's or headers so its just a question of how much head and cam we have to work with... the heads look to have a lot of "meat" on them too so there should be lots of room for porting

these could be phenomenal motors for racing with honda like performance per liter

[Jaime]

86mm stroke is revving to 12k
That's a piston speed of almost 7000fpm. That's beyond Formula One tech and into Top Fuel territory.

[3000gttom]

That's a piston speed of almost 7000fpm. That's beyond Formula One tech and into Top Fuel territory.

and the dude is doing it on a stock mitsubishi crank, keep in mind his is a race car and im sure he rebuilds quite often... but i think the ez should have no trouble going 10-11k with a good dry sump and its shorter 80mm stroke

80mm stroke and 11k is ~5800fpm

[Boog]

When looking at piston speeds, should you look at average speed? or max speed?

Average is easy because its just based on crank offset and RPM. For a max I think we would need to factor in connecting rod length since the shorter the rod, the higher the max speed and acceleration. I haven't really thought it all through but there's probably already a calculator online somewhere.

[3000gttom]

When looking at piston speeds, should you look at average speed? or max speed?

Average is easy because its just based on crank offset and RPM. For a max I think we would need to factor in connecting rod length since the shorter the rod, the higher the max speed and acceleration. I haven't really thought it all through but there's probably already a calculator online somewhere.

all you need is stroke and rpm but im not worried about it... all of the old 90's cars with the small 3.0L motors like this have shown to take rpm's with ease... ive taken my n/a 3000gt to 8k on stock oiling quite a bit and never had an issue... so with a dry sump i would probably take an ez30r as high as i could get the valvesprings to go

[Jaime]

and the dude is doing it on a stock mitsubishi crank, keep in mind his is a race car and im sure he rebuilds quite often... but i think the ez should have no trouble going 10-11k with a good dry sump and its shorter 80mm stroke

80mm stroke and 11k is ~5800fpmThe crank isn't a big deal... journal bearings are good for 100k RPM as long as the film holds. Both physical damage to the crank and journal film failure are caused by peak rod force, so it's totally independent of rpm. Getting power by raising the rpm ceiling is actually easier on a crank than getting the same power by boring, stroking or boosting.

The challenge to surviving high piston speed is rod strength and getting the rings to seal. 5800fpm probably just requires forged pistons and rods - I wouldn't even try it with cast internals.

[3000gttom]

so i called extreme racing but they havent worked with anyone doing a high rev build. so as far as i can see we would be in uncharted territory.

i think i might just buy a subie with the 3.0r motor and start playing with things... apparently they use ecuflash like i have been using on my 3000gt, so hopefully i can get a file with the definitions written out

[Sgt.Gator]

I contacted Tim at Raptor in OZ. Besides making a supercharger for the EZ30 they also sell headers and a new CAi for the NA version. Here's his response about the EZ30R:

Great to hear from you, have learned what a Factory Five 818 is from your email!

Next thing, I am no EZ30 specialist (I wish) when it comes to the internals like dry sump and other mods. For the most part I don’t have that knowledge, or at least not at this time. That said I will fill you in on some of what I know and hope it helps.

1. The factory oiling system in the motor is for the most part entirely adequate up to 7100 rpm, beyond that the pump really struggles and will let you down – keep the rpm under control and you are fine.

2. I know nothing about dry sumping this motor, haven’t heard of it but am sure someone will have tried it. With the predicted G forces and the oil pump which is “just” up to the job, the dry sump plan would be mandatory.

3. The factory exhaust manifold is restrictive if you are chasing good NA power, we have headers that will add up to 40hp with a custom tune and good pipe setup.

4. The engine has a high air demand which is not met by the stock air intake tract, you can measure up to 14” of water gauge restriction if the factory air induction system is used. We have a RAM intake that reduces the restriction down to around 3” of water gauge and significantly improves high rpm breathing.

5. Supercharging the motor – Supercharging the EZ30 is a good thing to do, if you keep the boost at 11psi or less combined with a good tune – the engines are highly durable and will give you around 440hp very easily (stock internals)

6. Turbocharging is being applied quite often too, the results are even more crazy, keep the temps in check and keep boost at around 9psi for good durability and amazing power (stock internals)

7. The factory ECU – can do anything you want – you just need a good opensource tuner – the sky is the limit and ANY mods can be accommodated. The DENSO unit is very good.

8. It is true we are probably offering more EZ30 bolt on parts for power than anyone else in the world, but we don’t dig inside, it’s a motor that besides being quite complex can be horrendously expensive to build up. It is a highly durable engine and we simply extract the power it can give up safely and at lowest cost for the customer.

9. Head gasket failure on the EZ30 – its common enough here in Australia. Basically once a car has covered 150 000km you can expect it any day, just a few go further without problems. Just goes with the motor. Reason not known. The Victor Reinz gasket set is very good – everyone in AUST buy it from USA Ebay. Head Gasket kit number Gasket Set HS54655 .

Also:
A dyno plot show typical header power gains.

Pics give you an idea of header/collector length.

33587....33588....33589



Tim Staier
Raptor Superchargers
raptorsc@westnet.com.au
Po Box 768
GORDONVALE QLD 4865
0409 897081

Australia's #1 and only centrifugal supercharger manufacturer

[flynntuna]

Thanks for the info. Trying to find much on NA EZ30's is hard to come by, most of what's out there is on turboing them.
A 40HP gain would be the goal that I would be happy with. Those headers look like they could be the ticket. The angle of the picture with the headers installed doesn't show how far they hang below the oil pan if at all. One step closer to choosing the power plant..

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm compiling a list of OEM and aftermarket parts for the EZ30R.

The Supertech Pistons are not listed on the Supertech website, but I have a Motovicity account and found them there, in stock. If anyone wants these parts PM me and I'll get you a price.
P6-SU8920-N18
Dome/Dish Vol: -18cc
Gram Weight: 321g
Skirt: Round
Comp Ratio: 8.5:1
Head CCs: 42
Pin Dia: 22mm (.866")
Bore: 89.20mm
Comp Height: 1.193"(30.3mm)
Oversized: Std
MSRP is $97

They also have the Supertech valves, dual valve springs and titanium retainer Supertech dual spring + Ti retainer kit:
Part #:SPRK-EZ30-W; Dual Valve Spring Kit; Spring: SPR-H1002D (12) + SPR-TS1015 (12); Retainers: RET-TS5.5 (12) + RET-H1000/T2 (12); Seat: SEAT-TS/SUH6E (12, Exhaust Only) [Subaru Legacy(2008-2009), Subaru B9 Tribeca(2006-2007)]
Specs:
Seat Press: 85@ 31.9mm (Inner)
Seat Press: 60@ 36.10 (Exhaust)
MSRP: $698
Notes
2nd Gen EZ30 w/ AVCS

More:
CF-34-2.5; Cam Follower 34mm x 26 x 2.5+ Shimm 8mm diam. $19.58

Part #:SIVN-1043, Intake Valve, Length: 99.80mm, Head Dia: 35.00mm (Std), Material: Black Nitrided, Stem Dia: 5.45mm MSRP $26.71

Pauter Rods: SUB-220-550-1315F : $1,200

OEM Bearing Set: $167
OEM Crank: $468
OEM Block: $1,175
OEM Short Block: $2,557
OEM Overhaul Gasket Set: $254

Typical JDM EZ30R with 20K mileage: $2,400. plus $350 Shipping

[flynntuna]

I contacted a sand-rail company in Buena Park Ca they have JDM EZ30r engines avail for $3500. They run them using AEM infinity units they developed. It uses the stock trigger wheels and using both AVCS and acl solenoids. It'll run with DBW and in closed loop.

They also have the EZ30 h for $2500 which will run with Wayne's Electromotive unit and harness.

There's also a shop in northern Colorado ( near Six Stars I think) which rebuilds Subarus exclusively.
A rebuilt EZ runs $5k plus core charge..

[tango68ss]

tuna... what's the name of the shop? I too am interested in the EZ30 option. I have been "talking" with Wayne about it...Once I'm back stateside I need to order the kit and start accumulating the "goods"... doing the eBay scan, there are some EZs out there, but not sure about the quality... It would be nice to chat with someone who builds them.

TC

[Wayne Presley]

The Infinity system is really nice but so is the pricetag..., you need the Infinity 8 with harness which will run $3130 with harness...:eek:

[tango68ss]

Wayne... TC here.. still in Africa... Is the EZ30D (single port exhaust) easier to work with than the EZ30R (triple port)? What year is the changeover?

[flynntuna]

tuna... what's the name of the shop? I too am interested in the EZ30 option. I have been "talking" with Wayne about it...Once I'm back stateside I need to order the kit and start accumulating the "goods"... doing the eBay scan, there are some EZs out there, but not sure about the quality... It would be nice to chat with someone who builds them.

TC

I originally didn't mention their name since they're not one of the vendors here, I invited them to check out the forum since they use Subie engines in their rails.


http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrSbDuzJRpU7R8AM2TBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTByb3B2a24 2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw--/RV=2/RE=1411028532/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.outfrontmotorsports.com%2fserv ices.htm/RK=0/RS=iLtMa59TsqXd0FRF3P_ULc42UDs-

[flynntuna]

The Infinity system is really nice but so is the pricetag..., you need the Infinity 8 with harness which will run $3130 with harness...:eek:

This is were I'm have a question, their doesn't seem to be anyone out this way that works with the Electromotive platform. My goal if I go with an EZ engine is to keep it NA and get aprox. 250HP, hopefully with just basic power adders, namely headers and a tune.

Now which of the H6 engines will best get me to that goal? Everything I've read so far uses a turbo or supercharger.
I like the idea of a "plug n play" option that you have with the Electromotive and harness option, but no one locally supports that platform. So far I've found the one shop that works with EZ engines, more expensive but local sort of (1.5 hr drive).

Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

Thank you,
George

[Sgt.Gator]

Why not use the Subaru ECU and RomRaider? If you don't want to tune it yourself there are some pro shops that can use it.

[flynntuna]

Why not use the Subaru ECU and RomRaider? If you don't want to tune it yourself there are some pro shops that can use it.

I'm an advocate of the "KISS" philosophy. :) Although I've been accused of being dense (just ask my wife), I do have to admit that this part of this project is the most difficult for me. Swapping ECU's ,running piggyback systems ect. Is all new to me. This is why I'm asking for advice. If using the Subaru ECU and RomRaider is the simplest and best then that's the direction were I'll go. But honestly I'm clueless, (well almost clueless) when it comes to engine management. This is going to be a father/son project and he's better in this dept. ,but has no experience with Subaru's either, his experience is with Audi's and although I know a lot transfers, the major decisions will be made by me. So that's why I'm asking to be pointed in the right direction, or at least know what the options are and the pluses and minuses are for each option.

Thanks,
George

[Wayne Presley]

George, you can do either the stock ECU or an aftermarket one. Are you wanting the ez30?

[sponaugle]

so im trying to find information regarding the ez30r motor. im looking all over the internet but maybe someone here knows or can point me in the right direction
i'm really interested in doing an 818 build but only if i can do a high revving H6 and i mean like 9k rpms
from everything i know about the motor, some ITB's and properly designed headers, along with high rev valve springs might really bring this thing to life... but my biggest concerns are:
how does the oiling system hold up? dry sump necessary?
and
is the same level of ecu tuning available as the turbo motors? avcs avls control? (this is essential to get the cams in sync with the header pulses)
any answers would be great or even if you could point me to a forum where ez30r guys mainly are at (nasioc seems rather shallow in info for these)
thanks
tom

I have done a number of EZ30Rs (turbocharged) as well as a couple of NA EZ30Rs. I am doing an EZ30R in my 818 (build thread here: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14139-Sponaugle-s-H6-EZ30R-818S).

Nasioc: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1215617
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1645176
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1187722

I have a turbo EZ30R in my bugeye, and a second one for the 818.

Here is my viewpoint based on my experience:

If you are looking for over 300whp, you should do some type of forced induction solution. I have tuned two EZ30R N/A platform cars, and both of them were somewhat disappointing in terms of total power. Even using higher octane fuels, large variances in timing, AVCS and ALS, open exhausts, lean AFRs and rich AFRs, and everything else I could come up with resulted in pretty small gains. In general, it is a well optimized NA motor. If you are not rebuilding with larger displacement, you will not be adding 100whp.

As a turbo platform, it actually works very well. The cam profiles respond well to boost (assuming you change the valve springs), and the AVLS works well in term of off boost response. The AVCS helps with spool a little bit, but you are pretty quickly running the AVCS at full retard so the difference is not as much as you would see on the 2.5L.

As for the oil system, it is pretty good. The pump vane diameter is larger than the EJs, the total case capacity is a lot more, and the head flow seems to not cause problems at the bottom of the sump. I have tracked my EZ30R without any problems at 500whp. I rev to 7200 rpm and oil pressure is still at 85psi. Obviously you could do a dry sump, but the verdict is out on if that is needed.


I'm looking at this option as a possible direction to go. My son wants to go the turbo route( he has a power jones) ;) but if 250-270 hp can be rung out of a NA ez30 then the sound of that six thru dual exhaust will be the deciding factor. I've got the checkbook for this build. :rolleyes:


I will try to find the dyno results from my previous NA tuning. I don’t recall 270whp being easy, but I might be off on that.
I do remember one thing. A well-built 2.5L with a small turbo was able to make more torque and more HP everywhere above 2500rpm… and how much time do you spend below 2500 rpm.


ohh well 250hp should be pretty easy... these results from what i understand are just headers+ exhaust
they have 232 hp (173kw) at the wheels, and not to mention they show the a/f ratio dipping all the way down to 12.0... if they held it in the low 13's at higher rpm's they would get even more power
also keep in mind this is on the big heavy 4wd outback... with the 818 only using 2wd there will be much less drive train loss you could probably hit 250 whp with the stock motor, long tube headers and a good tune
im really trying to find a high rev build though as im hoping for closer to 300 whp

The drivetrain losses will be a bit less, so there might be some gain there…. AFRS made almost no difference in power. It is a common misconception that leaner AFRs on NA cars always makes more power. It varies a significant amount based on the head design, cam design, header pulsing, etc. I was surprised how little difference there was going from 12.5 to 13.5. Sure you might get 1.9whp.


I contacted Tim at Raptor in OZ. Besides making a supercharger for the EZ30 they also sell headers and a new CAi for the NA version. Here's his response about the EZ30R:

Great to hear from you, have learned what a Factory Five 818 is from your email!
Next thing, I am no EZ30 specialist (I wish) when it comes to the internals like dry sump and other mods. For the most part I don’t have that knowledge, or at least not at this time. That said I will fill you in on some of what I know and hope it helps.

1. The factory oiling system in the motor is for the most part entirely adequate up to 7100 rpm, beyond that the pump really struggles and will let you down – keep the rpm under control and you are fine.
3. The factory exhaust manifold is restrictive if you are chasing good NA power, we have headers that will add up to 40hp with a custom tune and good pipe setup.
4. The engine has a high air demand which is not met by the stock air intake tract, you can measure up to 14” of water gauge restriction if the factory air induction system is used. We have a RAM intake that reduces the restriction down to around 3” of water gauge and significantly improves high rpm breathing.
5. Supercharging the motor – Supercharging the EZ30 is a good thing to do, if you keep the boost at 11psi or less combined with a good tune – the engines are highly durable and will give you around 440hp very easily (stock internals)
6. Turbocharging is being applied quite often too, the results are even more crazy, keep the temps in check and keep boost at around 9psi for good durability and amazing power (stock internals)
7. The factory ECU – can do anything you want – you just need a good opensource tuner – the sky is the limit and ANY mods can be accommodated. The DENSO unit is very good.
8. It is true we are probably offering more EZ30 bolt on parts for power than anyone else in the world, but we don’t dig inside, it’s a motor that besides being quite complex can be horrendously expensive to build up. It is a highly durable engine and we simply extract the power it can give up safely and at lowest cost for the customer.
9. Head gasket failure on the EZ30 – its common enough here in Australia. Basically once a car has covered 150 000km you can expect it any day, just a few go further without problems. Just goes with the motor. Reason not known. The Victor Reinz gasket set is very good – everyone in AUST buy it from USA Ebay. Head Gasket kit number Gasket Set HS54655 .


Agreed on the oil, although using a new oil pump rotor made a significant difference over an older used on. Replace it, it is easy.
The NA manifold probably do suck… I have only used some custom made ones.
The same with the intake tract…
As for turbo or supercharging the stock motor, indeed they work well. The Rods are a weak point, I would keep it below 400 if it were me. I broke a rod on one motor.
I have not used the factory ECU, only the aftermarket Hydra, Vipic, and Link.
As for the headgaskets, I have not seen any problems even at high power, but then again I rebuild my motors in 20-30k miles. Sure at 100k miles I expect them to blow. Replace them if you have an old motor.

[sponaugle]

The Infinity system is really nice but so is the pricetag..., you need the Infinity 8 with harness which will run $3130 with harness...:eek:
Yes.. a Vipec solution for the EZ30R would be around $2500, perhaps a bit less. It is a reasonably easy harness to make if you have the factory harness.


Wayne... TC here.. still in Africa... Is the EZ30D (single port exhaust) easier to work with than the EZ30R (triple port)? What year is the changeover?

The older EZ30D (in the U.S. often referred to as just and EZ30) has the single port exhaust… I am sure that is ‘eaiser’ in term of plumbing, but those motors make terrible power for the weight. Part of that is the cam and head design, but I would not start with the EZ30. I would only use the EZ30R.


This is where I'm have a question, their doesn't seem to be anyone out this way that works with the Electromotive platform. My goal if I go with an EZ engine is to keep it NA and get aprox. 250HP, hopefully with just basic power adders, namely headers and a tune.
Now which of the H6 engines will best get me to that goal? Everything I've read so far uses a turbo or supercharger.
I like the idea of a "plug n play" option that you have with the Electromotive and harness option, but no one locally supports that platform. So far I've found the one shop that works with EZ engines, more expensive but local sort of (1.5 hr drive). Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated.


True.. if you are looking for something plug and play, you could use a factory ECU. If you want to do an aftermarket ECU I suspect you will have to wire it yourself. This would be a MAF based tune, so you will almost certainly need some dyno calibration. This is hard advice to give… A small turbo EJ will weigh less and make more power. Sure you will have a better torque curve with the EZ30R, but to be clear; you buddy with the turbo 4 will be ahead of you , not behind you.

[tango68ss]

Thanks Jeff... explained in very "layman" terms and good for this pilot! You are the man!

TC

[flynntuna]

George, you can do either the stock ECU or an aftermarket one. Are you wanting the ez30?

I'm seriously looking at it, provided another 50HP can be squeezed out of it. That said my son says I'll get quickly bored with 250-260HP.

I like the simplicity of a NA car and the thought that Porsche like music, well nuff said. :cool:

[TahoeTim]

I'm going 3.6 NA with a megasquirt system programmed by Wayne for fly by wire throttle. Raptor will have headers in 60 days for $400. Done and done.


I might supercharge it eventually, we will see.

My 3.6 is mated to my 5MT and ready to go in the frame. Since I just got the kit last Sunday, I am a couple weeks away from mounting the engine.

[flynntuna]

I thought the 3.6 was a no go, to big and wouldn't fit. Please post lots of pictures from all angles.


And thanks Jeff for your input, I've read those threads on nasioc before and others you contributed to also. This forum is fortunate to have your experience, and I for one thank you for your contribution.

[Wayne Presley]

The EZ 36 dimensions are the same as the EZ30, the 3.3 out of the SVX is too big.

[flynntuna]

Ok thanks for the clarification, should have searched your thread before posting.
This is an interesting development, gives some food for thought and a lead to pursue, thanks

[sponaugle]

I'm seriously looking at it, provided another 50HP can be squeezed out of it. That said my son says I'll get quickly bored with 250-260HP.
I like the simplicity of a NA car and the thought that Porsche like music, well nuff said. :cool:

I am trying to find out what we got out of Andrew’s EZ30R car, but I want to say it was around 200whp. There are several people from Australia that have done the NA EZ30R swap and they seem to typically get 190-210whp.

If you think you will be bored with 250whp, 200 will probably be insufficient. I am not convinced you can get from 200 to 250 with exhaust and intake modifications.

I agree about the NA simplicity…. It makes things a lot eaiser. Unfortunalty if you are not going to either rev the engine higher (with supporting camshaft profiles, or add displacement, there is only so much you can gain. As for the sound, I drive my EZ30R WRX once a week and it is always a joy.


I'm going 3.6 NA with a megasquirt system programmed by Wayne for fly by wire throttle. Raptor will have headers in 60 days for $400. Done and done.
I might supercharge it eventually, we will see.
My 3.6 is mated to my 5MT and ready to go in the frame. Since I just got the kit last Sunday, I am a couple weeks away from mounting the engine.

The 3.6 engine is an odd one. If you are going to stick with NA, the extra displacement helps a lot. The most unusual internal part are the rods.

http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/H6-36-Rod.jpg

They are an asymmetrical design which allows greater stroke inside a smaller case. As a result you would probably not want to run the 3.6 above 8k rpm… and aftermarket rods may be a challenge. If you do jump to a supercharger, you will be breaking new ground (and perhaps breaking rods!). All good stuff!


I thought the 3.6 was a no go, to big and wouldn't fit. Please post lots of pictures from all angles.

It would be interesting to see how close the fit it.

And thanks Jeff for your input, I've read those threads on nasioc before and others you contributed to also. This forum is fortunate to have your experience, and I for one thank you for your contribution.

Thanks! I still drive around my 02 WRX and most Subaru people are still surprised when I pop the hood. I have to admit to being surprised to have not broken something in 6 years. That is so unlike me.

Jeff

[Wayne Presley]

I have to admit to being surprised to have not broken something in 6 years. That is so unlike me.

Jeff

LOL, you're really that hard on parts?

[TahoeTim]

I'm not concerned at all about the rod. There is a lot of false info out there about the rod. It is not bent, offset, or goofy in any way. The cap rod bolts are offset so they will clear the case, nothing more. Large diesel engines with huge cylinder pressures are designed the same way.

It's a stroked 3.0 so it's dimensionally the same as the 3.0. I have not been able to buy an exhaust manifold gasket to compare it to a 3.0 gasket but I think the ports are larger than the 3.0.

I never revved any of my race cars above 8000, except for my shifter kart. Why is 8000 rpm even considered? I don't want to start a battle here but a street sports car doesn't need that level of rev capability at all.

[sponaugle]

It is true we are probably offering more EZ30 bolt on parts for power than anyone else in the world, but we don’t dig inside, it’s a motor that besides being quite complex can be horrendously expensive to build up. It is a highly durable engine and we simply extract the power it can give up safely and at lowest cost for the customer.


This is interesting. I have rebuilt my EZ30R four times, so I have a good appreciation for the work as compared to an EJ25x. I never viewed the engine as overly ‘complex’, at least in the sense that all of the systems we reasonable easy to understand and rebuild. It is true there are lots of moving parts. The timing chain setup certainly involves a lot more moving parts.

http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/H6Build/H6Buildup-18.jpg

As for the cost of ‘rebuilding’ there are more o-rings and seals that need to be replaced, however it isn’t something way out of line.. I seem to remember $300-$400. If you are going to ‘build up’ for much greater power, I would agree it is expensive. The rods are not cheap, and you need to do the pistons as well.

Either way, don’t shy away from doing a rebuid. Like the 2.5L Subaru it requires very few unusual tools and can be done in a living room.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

LOL, you're really that hard on parts?

I should have said I went 6 years without breaking something on that WRX. My STIs had some fun however!


I'm not concerned at all about the rod. There is a lot of false info out there about the rod. It is not bent, offset, or goofy in any way. The cap rod bolts are offset so they will clear the case, nothing more. Large diesel engines with huge cylinder pressures are designed the same way.
It's a stroked 3.0 so it's dimensionally the same as the 3.0. I have not been able to buy an exhaust manifold gasket to compare it to a 3.0 gasket but I think the ports are larger than the 3.0.
I never revved any of my race cars above 8000, except for my shifter kart. Why is 8000 rpm even considered? I don't want to start a battle here but a street sports car doesn't need that level of rev capability at all.

I took a closer look at the picture, and indeed your assessment is correct. It would be better to say the rod ha and offset cap bolt, not an offset rod. That being said, the material of the rod and the thickness looks similar to the regular EZ30R rod. I actually bent of the EZ30R rods at about 400 lb-ft of torque at the wheels, so I would keep that in mind if you are thinking of making big power. Of course 400 lb-ft in a light weight RWD car like the 818 would be fun enough.

I also broke a rod with a bit more torque:

http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/BrokenH6-rod1.jpg

This was a cool failure. I was at full boost driving on the road and there was a very loud noise. It was cool to see the parts in the oil pan!

As for reving the engine, I never pushed any of my EZ30Rs above about 7500 rpm, although if I could I probably would! Assuming you have an engine that can maintain torque, being able to push to higher rpms extends the time you spend in a lower gear, which is a significant gain in actual torque to the wheels. Either way it would be cool to see a 3.6L 818. Do you know the weight difference between the EZ30R and the EZ36?

Jeff

[TahoeTim]

I don't know the exact weight difference but it is probably minimal. 260 hp stock plus 40hp for exhaust is going to be plenty for the 818. I will post photos once I get going full speed on the build.

[Sgt.Gator]

Does the EZ30 series have TGVs we can delete? Any other standard EJ2XX standard mods to consider? Top feed injectors? Fuel Rail plumbing? GBOD?

Can someone post a pic of the bottom of the engine with the oil pan off, and a pick of the insides of oil pan? I'm asking because I'm wondering if a crank scraper/oil baffle like the Cosworth one would be beneficial to this engine. And a deeper sumped oil pan too.

I was racing at the The Ridge last weekend for the first time in my LGT, the Carousel there is the longest sustained high G turn I know of in the Pac NW. It seems like it will never end! Once we figured the best line I started getting low oil pressure alarms with my STI oil pan and only 1.0 to 1.1G s. With the G forces the 818 should create I'm thinking the weak link is going to be oil pressure on these high speed long turns. Nothing a street 818 would ever see, but certainly a problem for those of us racing them.

[Wayne Presley]

It's a two piece pan and holds a bunch of oil, 6 quarts if I remember correctly,

[sponaugle]

Does the EZ30 series have TGVs we can delete? Any other standard EJ2XX standard mods to consider? Top feed injectors? Fuel Rail plumbing? GBOD?

Can someone post a pic of the bottom of the engine with the oil pan off, and a pick of the insides of oil pan? I'm asking because I'm wondering if a crank scraper/oil baffle like the Cosworth one would be beneficial to this engine. And a deeper sumped oil pan too.

I was racing at the The Ridge last weekend for the first time in my LGT, the Carousel there is the longest sustained high G turn I know of in the Pac NW. It seems like it will never end! Once we figured the best line I started getting low oil pressure alarms with my STI oil pan and only 1.0 to 1.1G s. With the G forces the 818 should create I'm thinking the weak link is going to be oil pressure on these high speed long turns. Nothing a street 818 would ever see, but certainly a problem for those of us racing them.

No TGVs. There are two manifolds you could run. The EZ30D manifold is aluminum and is designed to work with a cable throttle body.

http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/H6-OldManifold1.jpg

The EZ30R manifold is plastic and designed to work with a drive-by-wire throttle body.

http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/H6-DBWManifold1.jpg

There are a ton of pictures of the engine in this thread: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1215617

Injectors are top feed, same as other Subarus. I modified the stock fuel rails with AN connectors on each end. You could also make a custom rail.

The case is effectively three pieces. The two primary halves, then a lower section which holds most of the oil, then a very small 'pan cover'. The lower section is both the oil pan, as well as the thermostat housing and the water pump assembly.

http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/H6Build/H6Buildup-14.jpg

Here is the 'pan' itself attached:

http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/H6Build/H6Buildup-16.jpg

You can see the factory baffle in the first picture.



It's a two piece pan and holds a bunch of oil, 6 quarts if I remember correctly,

Yes, a bit over 6 actually.. You can put about 7.5 in it without a problem, and that helps a bit in long sweepers.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

Can someone post a pic of the bottom of the engine with the oil pan off, and a pick of the insides of oil pan? I'm asking because I'm wondering if a crank scraper/oil baffle like the Cosworth one would be beneficial to this engine. And a deeper sumped oil pan too.


I have a spare EZ30R block with the lower section, so I can take some more pictures tonight. There is a built in baffle into the case. You could do a deeper lower cover, although that part is pretty low already. I'm not sure how much extra room you would have.

[flynntuna]

Will a combination of the 7.5 qts and an accumulator like accusump solve the problem of long sweepers at high G's?

[sponaugle]

Will a combination of the 7.5 qts and an accumulator like accusump solve the problem of long sweepers at high G's?
Sgt. Gator will find out for us!.. ;)

I have done a number of track days with my EZ30R without any oil problems.. but PIR doesn't really have long sweepers.

[Sgt.Gator]

I don't know the exact weight difference but it is probably minimal. 260 hp stock plus 40hp for exhaust is going to be plenty for the 818. I will post photos once I get going full speed on the build.

Oh heck yes, TT! That's enough! Maybe not for the 1/4 mile drag racers, but in a road race car that will be extremely fast. My LGT runs in the ST class at 10lbs/hp and is plenty fast. 300WHP with 2100lbs (?) will mean super acceleration and with the right gearing top speeds at many tracks over 170 mph! My LGT hits 140 at PIR and the Ridge, 144 at Pacific, and 156 mph at Spokane. That's with +- 310 AWHP with 3300 lbs. The faster acceleration of the 818 will put those numbers to shame, assuming you can keep the rear wheels connected to the ground. I really can't imagine 400-450 hp being a lot more fun than that.

[flynntuna]

TahoeTim, is this were you got the your headers from?

http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0SO80FCGSJUxr4AMznBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTE0ZDYza21 hBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA0xPTkdUQzFfM Q--/RV=2/RE=1411549634/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.raptorsc.com.au%2fsubaru10.htm l/RK=0/RS=e31TA3FkU8mjd4NR56K2JcJurhU-

[TahoeTim]

yep

60 days away from production

[flynntuna]

I'm going 3.6 NA with a megasquirt system programmed by Wayne for fly by wire throttle. Raptor will have headers in 60 days for $400. Done and done.


I might supercharge it eventually, we will see.

My 3.6 is mated to my 5MT and ready to go in the frame. Since I just got the kit last Sunday, I am a couple weeks away from mounting the engine.


How are you planning to run the exhaust after the headers? Is it possible to run it like some run it in the GTM?

[TahoeTim]

I going to stay low and go straight back under the trans and come out under the body. I want to save the space above for a big trunk. Exhaust poked through the rear vent is not my cup of tea. The FFR website photos of the red car with the license plate low between two smaller screens is the look I want.

[flynntuna]

Found this today...


Quote # 5406475
Vehicle 2009 Subaru Tribeca
Part Used Engine - (3.6L, VIN 9, 6th digit)
Price $4495.00 - Used Engine
3 Year Parts and Labor warranty included
Shipping Free Shipping in the Continental U.S.
(*There is a $75 charge for all residential deliveries)
Mileage ~21,000 miles
Notes We Ship Low Mileage Used Engines Nationwide Daily!
Go to Secure Checkout

Receive Another Quote

[Sgt.Gator]

Jeff it's hard to tell in the pic...does the baffle on the block extend down into the pan, or does it stop level with the block? If it doesn't go down in the pan there may be a need for a pan baffle. Crank scrapers look out of the question. A Cosworth style tray might be useful too.

[flynntuna]

Bringing this thread back.
Found this series of YouTube videos from mightycarmods.com from Australia.

They install an EZ36 into a legacy, they call it Gramps 11 second car build. It's an 11 part YouTube series that describes the build and it's fairly detailed. Even though they use a turbo and I'm going NA, I found it helpful.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A47LYAcakg

[Samiam1017]

Flynn did you also get the header system tim was having made and if so hows the fit and finsh? doe sit fit in the chassis? thx

[flynntuna]

Yes, I got the headers but haven't tried to fit them yet. Getting a house back on the rental market has been taking longer than expected.:(

[Sgt.Gator]

flynntuna if you haven't seen this thread on NASIOC it is incredible. EZ30R in a Forester, using a Subaru OEM ECU from a UK EZ30R manual tranny car, DIY center lock wheel conversion, DIY individual throttle bodies, DIY brake calipers, DIY carbon fiber mufflers... This guy has mad fab skills. 98 forester STI (Phase 1-SUSPENSION)-(Phase 2 EZ30R) (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2299743)

[flynntuna]

His skills puts us mortals to shame. Very :cool:

[DSR-3]

What is the status of EZ30R installs in an 818- has anyone made it work, and is there a good path to follow re. electronics & wiring?

[flynntuna]

Yes. Wayne has done one with an ez30 that he added a turbo to. On his build thread starting on post 316

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10525-Wayne-Presley-VeryCoolParts-Build-Thread-H6-power/page8

[DSR-3]

That's not the so-called "R" version (3 exhaust ports, CAN bus, etc).

[flynntuna]

Wayne has another thread on that build ...


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?11192-H6-EZ30-engine-in-the-818-IT-FITS

Sponaugle also is building using h6, though he's been dark for a while...


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14139-Sponaugle-s-H6-EZ30R-818S

[Wayne Presley]

Not much difference between the 30D, 30R and 36 are basically the same motor. Just be prepared to make a custom exhaust and a stand alone ECU.

[craigfree]

With the ez30r having three exhaust ports, I'm having a much less pleasant time trying to fit headers between the left head and front lateral link. If using a turbo a manifold would probably be significantly easier. I also had to push the motor .5-.75" towards the rear to make room for the cam phasor. (Further hurting space for the header)

[Sgt.Gator]

With the ez30r having three exhaust ports, I'm having a much less pleasant time trying to fit headers between the left head and front lateral link. If using a turbo a manifold would probably be significantly easier. I also had to push the motor .5-.75" towards the rear to make room for the cam phasor. (Further hurting space for the header)

Are you using the Raptor headers?

[DSR-3]

craigfree: would you mind posting some pic's of your install? Maybe including some detail on fit issue areas (phaser). Thanks!

[craigfree]

No longer have the image I wanted, but here is a good view showing where the interference is. Photo is looking aft, so the right cam phasor ( left side of image) is in the perfect spot to hit the cross brace. I have a little over .100 clearance.
http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u420/CraigFree/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151017_161124184_zpstk1p0xxe.jpg (http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/CraigFree/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151017_161124184_zpstk1p0xxe.jpg.html)

Found the clearance photo:
http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u420/CraigFree/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150526_240217253_zpsg19j3qej.jpg (http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/CraigFree/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150526_240217253_zpsg19j3qej.jpg.html)

Right exhaust area for snaking a header through:
http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u420/CraigFree/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151130_230234017_zpsn7bliheu.jpg (http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/CraigFree/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151130_230234017_zpsn7bliheu.jpg.html)

[craigfree]

This is the level of effort in putting into the exhausthttp://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u420/CraigFree/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151207_241222036_zpsv7gugf9e.jpg (http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/CraigFree/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151207_241222036_zpsv7gugf9e.jpg.html)

I'm getting it to slip in, but I might still block the spark plugs to ease life.

[DSR-3]

Thanks for the pictures and heads-up on header design. I look forward to seeing your progress!

[DSR-3]

What flywheel & clutch are you using on the EZ30R?

I just got an (another...) early Christmas present.48417

[Wayne Presley]

You will use the flywheel that mates up to the transmission you are using

[Samiam1017]

does anybody know of any headers that fit in the chassis for the 30r?

[Turboguy]

This guy has mad fab skills. 98 forester STI (Phase 1-SUSPENSION)-(Phase 2 EZ30R) (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2299743)

wow. just - wow.


Not sure how I missed this before. I've been reading through his thread for the last half hour. Talk about inspiring -and intimidating- and jaw dropping all at the same time. Thank you so much for posting this!

[Turboguy]

I have a little over .100 clearance.
http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u420/CraigFree/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150526_240217253_zpsg19j3qej.jpg (http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/CraigFree/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150526_240217253_zpsg19j3qej.jpg.html)


Is that the clearance you had AFTER moving the engine rearward?


I remember Wayne having more clearance than that when he initially installed the engine in it's original position?

[craigfree]

Correct. Wayne used the ez30d, which does not have variable intake timing and thus does not have the cam phasor.

[Sgt.Gator]

I spent some time digging into the oil system of the EZ30 and EZ36 in regards to dry sumping them. I came to the conclusion that I could possibly make a DS pan for the EZ30 (Maybe!), but the oil system on the EZ36 is very different from the EZ30 and the EJ series. On the EZ36 the oil pump is inside the pan, not on the outside of the block like the EZ30/EJ25 series. I don't see how it could be dry sumped without extensive engineering.

[flynntuna]

does anybody know of any headers that fit in the chassis for the 30r?

Not sure if any off the shelf headers will fit. Going with a power train that's not supported by the original design is going to come with its share of challenges.

I'm using an EZ36 and have a set of headers for it. Don't know yet if they'll fit without modification yet. I'll have to deal with it when that challenge comes. Fingers crossed ;)

This is a link of someone who built their own headers. http://forum.liberty.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11198

Wayne built his own headers in his turbo ez30.

[Wayne Presley]

Yes, you'll have to build your own headers for the 818 with any of the EZ motors. Not that big of a deal but something to be aware of it.

[Samiam1017]

does the 05 outback have immobilizers and all that bad stuff? my other question would be, I have basically an 07 wrx engine now and have been having trouble with the harness and was very close to ordering the iwire system, but now that I have a ez30r option I may be better off concidering a standalone, so I could go either way with just a engine harness change (possibly). What units should I concider? Ived looked at the infinity system but that's doesn't support Subaru yet.

[Wayne Presley]

I have a system that will do drive by wire, AVCS, and has built in traction control. It's $2950 with the car harness.

[craigfree]

I have a system that will do drive by wire, AVCS, and has built in traction control. It's $2950 with the car harness.

That's for the ez30r?

Go on! What ecu management?

[07FIREBLADE]

Behind door #3 is the.... tec3 ecu system.

Did I win the grand prize?!?!?!

[Samiam1017]

I have a system that will do drive by wire, AVCS, and has built in traction control. It's $2950 with the car harness.

Wayne, your system includes a fuse box and wiring for all the cars systems? Is your system plug ands play for factory gauges?

[flynntuna]

Here is a H6 resource thread on nasioc...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1323800

[Wayne Presley]

That's for the ez30r?

Go on! What ecu management?
It's the New Haltech Elite 1500


Wayne, your system includes a fuse box and wiring for all the cars systems? Is your system plug ands play for factory gauges?

Yes it does

[craigfree]

Isn't the Haltech elite 1500 for four cylinders?

What’s different:
• Elite 1500 is ideal for 4 cylinder or 2 rotor engines.
It has 4 fuel and 4 ignition outputs and single knock control.

• Elite 2500 is ideal for 6, 8 cylinder or 3, 4 rotor engines.
It has 8 fuel and 8 ignition outpus and dual knock control.


My wiring plan at the moment is the elite 2500 with painless for the chassis, which is just under the 3k price.

[Wayne Presley]

You can run the 1500 on a 6 by pairing injectors and running wasted spark.
I'm a Haltech dealer so buy it from me please

[flynntuna]

Would the 1500 run the ez36 too?

[Wayne Presley]

Would the 1500 run the ez36 too?

Yes it will

[flynntuna]

Ok, on the Haltec website their video of the elite 1500 and 2500 says that the 1500 will run 4cyl full sequential and 6cyl semi sequential. What does that mean and should I care?

[Samiam1017]

You can run the 1500 on a 6 by pairing injectors and running wasted spark.
I'm a Haltech dealer so buy it from me please

this maybe a stupid question but I don't know the answer, are multiple injectors firing but just not entering spark too? or isn't that what's happening.

and whats the upgrade cost from the 1500-2500 thx

[Wayne Presley]

Ok, on the Haltec website their video of the elite 1500 and 2500 says that the 1500 will run 4cyl full sequential and 6cyl semi sequential. What does that mean and should I care?
Semi sequential means that it is running the injectors. Up on the cylinders that are going up and down together. They will run just as good as a fully sequential system up and to the point where you have such a large injector that you had can't have a short enough pulse width to idle


this maybe a stupid question but I don't know the answer, are multiple injectors firing but just not entering spark too? or isn't that what's happening.

and whats the upgrade cost from the 1500-2500 thx

On the paired cylinders, the spark fires during an exhaust stroke on one side and firing stroke on the other. The cost difference between the 1500 and the 2500 is $500

[flynntuna]

Thank you Wayne, sometimes the most basic things can confuse me. :rolleyes:

[DodgyTim]

Hi all EZ30 guru's
After a burst of impulse buying at an online auction site I'm now the proud owner (until the wife finds out) of a slightly damaged 2006 Outback R with the 3.0R motor
It isn't going in my 818R straight away, as my approval to build is for the 2006 wrx motor, but I'd really appreciate if someone could point me to a link for any relevant factory workshop manual
Cheers

[flynntuna]

This is a tech manual...

http://phantomotaku.com/SVX/011822-MSA5P0631C.pdf

[Samiam1017]

I ordered Wayne's haltec unit and will be running it on an 07 wrx. I purchased a 08 legacy EZ30 to rebuild and install next winter. Haven't decided if I will run a turbo supercharge it or just run it NA.

[DodgyTim]

This is a tech manual...

http://phantomotaku.com/SVX/011822-MSA5P0631C.pdf

Awesome, thank you

[flynntuna]

Your welcome. This covers up to 2008, if anyone has a link for one for the ez36 2010 and later I'd appreciate it.

[DSR-3]

if anyone has a link for one for the ez36 2010 and later I'd appreciate it.
maybe here?
http://jdmfsm.info/Auto/Japan/Subaru/

[flynntuna]

Thanks, so far from a cursory look it looks like what I need.