Front tires rub. What did I do wrong?

[AZPete]

Where did I go wrong?
Both front tires rub on the frame but I think I followed the recommended wheel & tire sizes.
FFR Manual, page 472: front optimum tire size: 215/45/17

Here's what I have:
2006 WRX sedan aluminum lower control arms
FFR upper control arms - driver side cut per manual revision
eyeball alignment - not exact yet, but close
17 x 8 Enkei Racing RPF1 wheels
215/45ZR-17 Michelin Pilot Super Sport XL tires (20 psi), overall diameter 24.7"
Ride height: 4.5"

Both sides rub on the frame behind the wheel well at less than full turn.
31785

[bompus]

I haven't reached this point yet, but I do know that I am planning on using 17x7 wheels on the front with 215/40/17 tires to try and avoid an issue like this. I'm sure others could chime in on how to fix your problem. I think I remember Jerome using some type of spacer to assist with clearance on the front so might be worth while checking with him.

[JeromeS13]

I thought the 215/45/17 was a typo? I believe they later corrected it to be 215/40/17 or less than a 24.0" overall tire diameter. Also, what's the offset on those wheels?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Pete,
You need to flip over you LCA bushing and put the squiggle on the bottom. This will move the bushing toward the outside of the car. That will result in the ball joint moving forward.
31786
Bob

[metalmaker12]

Hi Pete,
You need to flip over you LCA bushing and put the squiggle on the bottom. This will move the bushing toward the outside of the car. That will result in the ball joint moving forward.
31786
Bob

This should help along with a 24.0" overall and 35-30mm offset.

[Frank818]

Flipping over the LCA bushings, you mean flipping compared to OEM config or flipping over from FFR's config back to OEM's config? What's your point of reference when you say "flip over"?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Flipping over the LCA bushings, you mean flipping compared to OEM config or flipping over from FFR's config back to OEM's config? What's your point of reference when you say "flip over"?

Install them so the like this picture. 31814 Credit to Guns for this picture.
Bob

[AZPete]

Bob, I checked my LCA bushings and you are right. I'll flip them this weekend! I remember lots of forum discussion and questions about the LCA bushings, and being careful, but somehow I got them wrong. Now I hope this correction will clear the tires. Thank you! I'll post the result.

Jerome, the wheels have +35mm offset. I checked the FFR revisions I have and don't find any correction to the 215/45/17 size. If it was a typo then was there some forum post I missed? I studied the wheel & tire thread carefully before ordering but found so many differing opinions that I went with FFR's recommendation of 215/45/17. I'll flip the LCA bushings and hope I didn't make an expensive mistake buying wheels and tires. Thanks for helping!

[JeromeS13]

Also, was this with the car still on the dolly or lowered down on the ground? From what I recall, the car should have more clearance when it's actually sitting on its wheels.

This is from the 1H manual. :(

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t43/JeromeS13/818-Manual-1H_zps16da60d5.jpg (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/JeromeS13/media/818-Manual-1H_zps16da60d5.jpg.html)

[AZPete]

Crap, somehow I missed the 1H update. Thanks, Jerome, for pointing this out. A $300 mistake. :(
Yup, the chassis is on the ground at 4.5" ride height.

Edit: I checked my copy of 818_Manual_rev-1H-update.pdf and there's nothing about tires & wheels. Maybe it's not complete - mine has 25 pages and no mention of tires in the Page 1 index. Strange.

Is there any way to get ALL Updates so I can be sure I don't make similar mistakes again?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Pete
I think you can make them work. I was able to get to 1.5' clearance on my 225/45/16 23.9" toyo R888 16x6.5 x 55 ET rims.
31824
Bob

[bompus]

Pete,

I'll PM you the link to the complete 1i manual which is newer than the 1h. The wheel/tire specs are on page 489-490. The LCA mounting is on 76-77.

[AZPete]

Thanks for the link with the complete 1i manual. It looks much more complete than anything else I have.


Anyone want two 215/45/17 tires? I didn't think so.

[AZPete]

Thanks to Bompus, I've discovered there are at least two versions of the manual revisions! I thought I had the latest version, 1i, but all I had was the 20-page update and not the 495-page 1i revision. For me the error was costly. Here's the difference so you can check what you have:

818_Manual_rev-1i-update.pdf 2,209 KB 20 pages (pedal box, accelerator cable, seats, console)
818-Manual-rev-1i.pdf 55,896 KB 495 pages (complete manual)

Should there be a Sticky showing the most recent manual version? And, how to get it by 818 owners downloading it, or others buying it?

[RM1SepEx]

Pete, your 215-45-17 tires should fit, that is the spec as in my original, hard copy rev 1C manual on page 472...

[AZPete]

Dan, I saw the spec in 1C also which is why I bought 215/45/17 tires, but I didn't get any more tires size info because it was changed to 215/40/17 in the 1H revision, but not the 1H Update. The 1i update does not mention tire sizes but the 1i revision has it as 215/40/17. Today I'll remount the LCA bushings and hope the 215/45/17 tires clear the frame.

So far I've learned that whenever FFR sends out an update I should ignore it and request a link to download the full manual.

[thall818]

Pete, don't panic yet. I think you will get them to work. If the LCA bushing doesn't work, and I suspect it will, the next question is alignment. If your upper A-arms haven't been adjusted properly, this could push the tire back as well.

[RM1SepEx]

Pete, are you using steel or aluminum LCAs?

[metalmaker12]

Dan, I saw the spec in 1C also which is why I bought 215/45/17 tires, but I didn't get any more tires size info because it was changed to 215/40/17 in the 1H revision, but not the 1H Update. The 1i update does not mention tire sizes but the 1i revision has it as 215/40/17. Today I'll remount the LCA bushings and hope the 215/45/17 tires clear the frame.

So far I've learned that whenever FFR sends out an update I should ignore it and request a link to download the full
manual.

Try a 5mm spacer also, you can prob get away with a +30mm offset to just clear fender edge. I will be running +30mm offset all around. I am currently at 215-40-17 +35 front and 255-35-18 +39.

And I don't read the manuel other than as a reference because it's missing the proper sequence in many build operations.

[Goldwing]

The front LCA rear mount has plenty of pics in the manuals both ways. Heck, I called FFR to verify and they check their floor models which had the squiggle side, hump side, whatever you want to call it side up. Working on the alignment yesterday, I had to flip it to squiggle side,..., down in order to get the caster in spec. With all the confusion, I figured I would wait until there was a compelling reason to flip it. That time came yesterday. Well. I have 17x8's with 215/45/17's mounted on them. Low 40's offset. I hope I can make them work. I bought them a while ago now.

[RM1SepEx]

The manual is a mess, I tried early on to get stuff straightened out, even identified inconsistencies page by page photo by photo before a printed manual existed. They published it with mistakes and didn't revise it

you need the squiggle down to get the position of the wheel to fit properly, we verified that about 11 months ago. My STI arms give you a little more space as they were designed to increase caster

As Chris indicated a spacer will help to keep the inside edge off the aluminum too

[Frank818]

Hi Pete,
You need to flip over you LCA bushing and put the squiggle on the bottom. This will move the bushing toward the outside of the car. That will result in the ball joint moving forward.
31786
Bob

That's the flat tab on the bottom? There's been a lot of discussions on that and it seemed everyone agreed to put the flat tab on the bottom with the tabs installed under the top bracket and over the bottom bracket. If I recall, to do all that we needed to swap the whole bushing from the left arm to the right arm and vice-versa.

On your pic it looks like that the flat tab is on the top?

[Evan78]

I attempted to create a list of updates/revisions to the manual. I have links to each full manual version but didn't post in the thread since non-818 owners are supposed to buy from the FFR store.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14261-818-Assembly-Manual-Revisions

It is up to date as far as I know.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That's the flat tab on the bottom? There's been a lot of discussions on that and it seemed everyone agreed to put the flat tab on the bottom with the tabs installed under the top bracket and over the bottom bracket. If I recall, to do all that we needed to swap the whole bushing from the left arm to the right arm and vice-versa.

On your pic it looks like that the flat tab is on the top?

Hi Frank
that picture is of Pete's car (post 4) with the bushing install incorrectly. The squiggle needs to be down like post 7.
Bob

[Frank818]

Bob my mistake, I quoted the wrong post!! Sorry about that. I'm all good.

If anyone asks FFR and FFR goes to check on their prototype in the showroom (the one with non-powder coated chassis and no body), that's bad half of the time. If they did not change it since end of April, the prototype has one bushing installed one way and the other the other way.

[Aero STI]

I have the same issue with rubbing on the front with '06 WRX wheels and 215/45r17 tires. These are the factory setup off of an '06 and it seems completely ridiculous that factory five wouldn't tweak the chassis slightly so the standard size tires work without issue.

[AZPete]

Thanks to all, especially Bob, I've made some progress and learned a bit. As Bob advised, my LCA bushings were installed wrong - he even posted a photo of mine from months ago! I removed the LCAs and remounted the bushings with the "squiggle" down which moved the rear of the LCA about 1/2" inch outward. My 215/45/17 tires still rub the frame but only after an additional 90 degrees of the steering wheel, in other words, at nearly full lock. I will wait until I can get a professional alignment to make sure before I spend $300 for new 215/40/17 tires. I'll just be sure to not turn too sharp in the meantime. Here's where they rub now.
31888
What I learned is that the manual updates from FRR (1F, 1H and 1i) did not include the revision to the tire sizes. So, before you buy tires, check the most recent FULL manual, not just the short Updates.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Pete,
Glad I could help.
What offset do you have on your rims. When I have my stock rim with 55 offset the center of steering rotation (kingpin) in closer to the centerline of the tire. The makes the room used by the tire more compact.

With offsets like 30-35 or spacers makes the swing radius of the tire larger also causing it also to hit the frame.

After you changed your LCA bushing. You also need to adjust your caster to give you more room.

Do you have more rub on left side than right side? Mechie3 has a solution for that.
Bob

PS: I am an electrical engineer, please understand if I get some of the terms wrong.:rolleyes:

[Goldwing]

I see you have aluminum arms. Are they the wrx LCAs or the STI ones? The STI arms have additional caster (the same adjustment we both effectively just made in our cars by flipping the wing mounts) likely helping the clearance more. I wonder if it is safe to adjust/slot/modify the rear LCA mount just a bit more, adding more caster to help with clearance here? Anyone smarter about these things have an opinion here?

[AZPete]

Bob, my 17x8 wheels have 35mm offset. I have adjusted the caster but only by guesstimate and once on the road I'll get a professional alignment. Both front tires rub the same amount at the same amount of turn - nearly full lock. Thanks so much for your help.

Goldwing, I'm using 06 WRX sedan LCAs and the cost of changing to Sti LCAs would probably be more than new tires. I also wondered about somehow moving the rear LCA mount outward. When I bolted up the mounts yesterday, with the "squiggle" side down, it was tempting to use the outer holes (for station wagon) but then thought it might create other problems so I used the inner (sedan) holes.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Pete
A suggestion I got from someone at FFR was to add a spacer under the steering rack boot to decrease the travel of the rack. I disregarded this suggestion. But that would stop your rubbing.
Bob

[Goldwing]

I was thinking about those same wagon holes, but had the same concerns. I pulled one of my front tires out of the shed and confirmed I have the same issue. :(
Studying the setup, I notice the pivot of the rear mount is already outboard of the forward mount, so will a little extra matter? Again, we need smarter minds. Another thought? The aluminum arms have a bolt on pivot that goes to the rear bushing. Adding a spacer there would maintain pivot geometry, but add caster similar to the STI arms. Anyone have an opinion there? Adding a spacer may necessitate longer graded bolts holding that piece on.

31891

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I was thinking about those same wagon holes, but had the same concerns. I pulled one of my front tires out of the shed and confirmed I have the same issue. :(
Studying the setup, I notice the pivot of the rear mount is already outboard of the forward mount, so will a little extra matter? Again, we need smarter minds. Another thought? The aluminum arms have a bolt on pivot that goes to the rear bushing. Adding a spacer there would maintain pivot geometry, but add caster similar to the STI arms. Anyone have an opinion there? Adding a spacer may necessitate longer graded bolts holding that piece on.

31891

Hey Pete and Rich
I am using the wagon holes with sedan arms.
31892
There will be a couple of issues.
1> shocks to short, working on solution
2> tires rubbing fenders, wait and see
3> steering rack extension needed, Thanks Mechie3
4> upper a arm to short, but I am running lots of camber
Bob

[Aero STI]

I've known about the free caster mod for a while, but didn't think it would be necessary on the 818 until the posts above made me want to try it to remedy my tire rub. The good news is that it worked, and I still need to fix the location of my squiggle, which should make things even better. I can go lock to lock with no rubbing at all.

http://i.imgur.com/9jGwUpU.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/w1CP6Et.jpg



Here is a link to a long thread, in the later posts you'll see mention of adding spacers. I went with a 12MM thick spacer. http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspension-handling-stiffening/47176-free-castor-mod.html

[RM1SepEx]

rear bushings are upside down, wiggle goes down

[Goldwing]

I've known about the free caster mod for a while, but didn't think it would be necessary on the 818 until the posts above made me want to try it to remedy my tire rub. The good news is that it worked, and I still need to fix the location of my squiggle, which should make things even better. I can go lock to lock with no rubbing at all.

http://i.imgur.com/9jGwUpU.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/w1CP6Et.jpg



Here is a link to a long thread, in the later posts you'll see mention of adding spacers. I went with a 12MM thick spacer. http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspension-handling-stiffening/47176-free-castor-mod.html

I can't tell you how glad I am to see this mod vetted and tested by others. I did exactly this with 3/8" aluminum stock and longer bolts. I still had a slight bit of rubbing, so I made a couple 5mm steering rack limiters to clip over the rack inside the inner ball joint. To do it again, I'd start with STI aluminum LCAs, but what's done is done.

[Aero STI]

rear bushings are upside down, wiggle goes down

This was already stated in my post. You must have been distracted by my beautiful pictures. ;)

So people aren't confused this is referred to as the "squiggle" everywhere else in the thread, not "wiggle".

[RandyB]

We modified the steering rack by putting a short length of 1 inch schedule 40 PVC pipe around the shaft under the boot on each side. This limits the steering to about 1 full turn in each direction, but it doesn't rub with 235s on the front.

[bompus]

Sigh. I found this post long ago and forgot about it until now of.courde. I'm pretty sure my aluminum LCA bushings are both squiggle side up. I'm debating leaving them this way and limiting the rack, or pulling them and swapping sides to obtain full squiggle-down status. What do y'all think?

[metros]

I would say to pull and swap. Only a bit more work than limiting the steering and it's done.

[bompus]

Well, pulled and swapped. I still have tires hitting on both sides. XXR 530 wheels with 215/40/17 Nexen tires. My options are.. try not to turn that sharp, add spacers to something, add stoppers to the rack. Hrmm ..

[idf]

Well, pulled and swapped. I still have tires hitting on both sides. XXR 530 wheels with 215/40/17 Nexen tires. My options are.. try not to turn that sharp, add spacers to something, add stoppers to the rack. Hrmm ..

I had the same issue with the same wheels and tire size. If you are hitting the wheel well, you can gain some room by relieving the fender liner, ie whacking it with a nylon mallet. I also added rack stops (Half inch pieces of PVC pipe slotted to go over the rack) . The combination solved the problem.

[Frank818]

Bompus, where are your tires hitting exactly? And I mean mean exactly.

[bompus]

Frank, it is a frustrating spot to try and take a good picture, but here goes. I haven't tested this yet, but I don't see a way that I can bend or hammer the wheel well aluminum inward enough for clearance in the two areas that I can see it is hitting on both passenger and driver side. Photos below, I tried to circle where it is hitting.

https://818cdn.bompus.com/2019-08/IMG_20190827_184207.jpg https://818cdn.bompus.com/2019-08/IMG_20190827_184238.jpg https://818cdn.bompus.com/2019-08/IMG_20190827_184245.jpg
https://818cdn.bompus.com/2019-08/IMG_20190827_184318.jpg https://818cdn.bompus.com/2019-08/IMG_20190827_184338.jpg

[bompus]

Frank, here's some better photos of the major spot. It's hitting the aluminum, not the fiberglass body. Both the body and aluminum are flush or even behind the frame. It's significant enough, that even if the aluminum and body were removed, it'd still be hitting the frame, so I can't do much about that. The other spot it's hitting is the inner wheel well I could probably bend the aluminum to eliminate the rub in that spot.

https://818cdn.bompus.com/2019-08/IMG_20190827_190711.jpg https://818cdn.bompus.com/2019-08/IMG_20190827_190630.jpg https://818cdn.bompus.com/2019-08/IMG_20190827_190719.jpg https://818cdn.bompus.com/2019-08/IMG_20190827_190604.jpg

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Well, pulled and swapped. I still have tires hitting on both sides. XXR 530 wheels with 215/40/17 Nexen tires. My options are.. try not to turn that sharp, add spacers to something, add stoppers to the rack. Hrmm ..

Bompus,
I'm running 235/40-17 toyo R888 in front with clearance lock to lock. I did a lot to get there.
1: wheel offset. I'm at 45mm. A lower number moves the tire out from the pivot point. So the tire needs more clearance front and rear.
2: I moved my LCR rear mounts out toward the sides of the car. This move the lower ball joint forward, giving more clearance on the rear side of the tire.
3: Alignment: mine 4.5deg caster, -1.0 degree camber. Without an alignment, your upper ball joint may not be in the correct place corrupting your conclusions.
4: I moved my sedan LCR's to the wagon holes in the frame to increase my track width and give me more clearance.
5: more things I don't remember right now.

There are ways to get there.
Bob

[Frank818]

Bompus, sorry about the pix it's true they are not easy to take but they do help a lot.

To complement on Bob, I would add the following:

- Being on stands may make it worse, or may make it better. Either way the car needs to be on the ground at ride height and then full lock
- Alignment! Definately need a real good alignment first
- I have added 10mm spacers on my alu LCAs between the LCA itself and the black part on inner side towards the middle of the car close to the hurricane mounts
- That same part can also be flipped around, which I didn't do
- I have added 10mm wheel spacers, gives a better look too
- As Bob said, wheel offset plays a role
- You can add a couple of stoppers on the steering rack too, but I'd do that at the very end, last resort measure, as it limits your turning circle and it ain't that short already on that car
- Try to have your alu panels curved inside the frame, talking mms here. One of mine is slightly curved outside (or inside the wheel area) due to the coolant pipe passing there, makes a small bump, and that was enough to make it rub there but not on the other side

[markclow1]

Mine rub also. I am probably going to go down to smaller tires.

[Harley818]

For sure you need to do an approximate alignment first...… you can do that with the string method.... just google it.
I'm running XXR 530's with +33, 235-40-17 Maaxis tires in front and I have a very slight rub that is barely taking off the paint on the tin.
I flipped the mount for the LCA but I didn't have to add the 10mm spacer to get the caster I needed. Running +5.5 degrees caster

[mac1]

mine are also rubbing at full turn either way with 235-40r17. Dont know the offset of these XXR wheels though.

[mac1]

For sure you need to do an approximate alignment first...… you can do that with the string method.... just google it.
I'm running XXR 530's with +33, 235-40-17 Maaxis tires in front and I have a very slight rub that is barely taking off the paint on the tin.
I flipped the mount for the LCA but I didn't have to add the 10mm spacer to get the caster I needed. Running +5.5 degrees caster


Well hey, this is exactly my setup and issue!:p except with Falken Azenis
I aligned the car at work few times and I just used a Lotus Elise as a baseline since I had to put in a VIN to get started.

[Harley818]

I'm happy with my set up and have been driving it for 3 summers now.
Made a couple improvements to caster and straight line tracking in the last year with the last flip of the LCA mount.