Sponaugle's H6 EZ30R 818S

[Wayne Presley]

Jeff, are you going to dry sump?

[sponaugle]

Jeff, are you going to dry sump?

Not on the 4 cylinder, as this engine is just for me to pass emissions and get the chassis sorted. I am debating on doing a dry sump for the EZ30R. Since I am going to focus on drag racing first, it isn't as important. Very little side acceleration.

Jeff

[metalmaker12]

Not on the 4 cylinder, as this engine is just for me to pass emissions and get the chassis sorted. I am debating on doing a dry sump for the EZ30R. Since I am going to focus on drag racing first, it isn't as important. Very little side acceleration.

Jeff

Not to hijack, but do you have experience with plx device dm-6 and multi modules, or does anyone?

[sponaugle]

Not to hijack, but do you have experience with plx device dm-6 and multi modules, or does anyone?

No worries.
I have used them extensively in a number of cars. Here are some thoughts:

Pluses:
Integrated chain means more sensors then displays which is nice. You can have 4 EGTs, plus a bunch of other sensors all working with just a couple of displays.
The display screens are very nice and very readable. When they came out in 2008 they were class leading. Not as much now.
The daisy chain output protocol is simple and well documented. You can interface directly to the Cobb software so you can log all of the devices right into your AP datalogs.
The have a variety of sensors, so you can do more then just AFR and boost.

Minuses:
Their sensors are mediocre at best. AFR actually works pretty well, but the boost sensor in built into a control box (so not remote), and is very inaccurate. IAT and EGT work well using K-type thermocoples, but the water/oil temp and oil pressure use very cheap and poorly designed sensors (an old Bosch sensor in both cases).

The idea of having the little control boxes daisy chain together is novel, but in practice it is a pain. I had 10 devices so my glove box was completly full of little red boxes with a ton of interconnecting wires. +12 for each box, sensor, plus two interconnects each. Very messy.

The displays burn in over time. I have had mine since 08, and both in my 08 STI are pretty burned in. They still read fine, but that is the downside of OLED.

They have no fuel pressure sensor, which is funny. There have been people asking about it for YEARS on their forum. I got a sensor working, and later on made my own 'devices' that output data on the chain bus for display.

The display control box is huge, and the connector from the display to the display box is a VGA connector so large and hard to fit thru small spots. This makes running the wires a pain.

The display software is buggy, and a bit odd. There are some simple configurations that are missing, especially if you have lots of devices. It does have a cool alarm function using multiple parameters in and AND/OR tree.

Summary: They work well, but have some significant downsides. I don't know of any other system that is better, and for my 818 I am going to roll my own. I'll be making PCBs for the controller, and putting everything in open source so if anyone wants to use the stuff they can. I suspect I will end up using the 4D system displays Aero STI mentioned above. They are cheap (less then $100), and I can roll my own controller PCB that can read sensors, do CAN bus, etc.

Jeff

[Sgt.Gator]

When you install the EZ30 I'll be happy to take the old 4 cylinder boat anchor off your hands. No charge for the recycle service. :)

[longislandwrx]

I got my transmission from Andrewtech. It is a 5 speed with straight cut PPG gears and synchros plus a Cusco 1.5 Differential.
http://www.sponaugle.com/818/NewTransmission.jpg

That looks awesome. How about some cheese with that whine?

[Turboguy]

Nickel-copper brake lines? Interesting. I'm curious if they discolour with time like pure copper does?


On the tranny - does the PPG kit convert the box to sequential shifting or in the end product an H-pattern dog box. Curious what something like that costs?

[RM1SepEx]

Nickel-copper brake lines? Interesting. I'm curious if they discolour with time like pure copper does?

My mechanic uses these when he does line work on street cars, they do get a darker "patina" over time

[STiPWRD]

On the tranny - does the PPG kit convert the box to sequential shifting or in the end product an H-pattern dog box. Curious what something like that costs?
Not sure what you meant by the shifting question but PPG gears are stronger and replace the existing gears already in the transmission. I bought PPG gears back in 2006 for $3200 - this was for 1-2 straight and 3-4 helical. I think I spent about another $200 for PPG syncros at the time and Andrewtech did the install. I was told if I wanted to do dog engagement, that would've required some additional modification to the trans housing and I've heard a dog box is great for racing but can be a pain for daily driving.

[sponaugle]

When you install the EZ30 I'll be happy to take the old 4 cylinder boat anchor off your hands. No charge for the recycle service. :)

I'll keep you in mind! Of course I have a couple of other STIs that might be fighting you for it. :)


That looks awesome. How about some cheese with that whine?

Yea, I am looking forward to the sound. I dig the whine... of course it might get old, but that just means you need to go faster.


Nickel-copper brake lines? Interesting. I'm curious if they discolour with time like pure copper does?
On the tranny - does the PPG kit convert the box to sequential shifting or in the end product an H-pattern dog box. Curious what something like that costs?

No, they pretty much stay the same tone but slightly darker over time. I found a few pictures online and it was hard to tell age based on color. Porsche uses these on their factory cars, and they are more corrosion resistant than steel.


My mechanic uses these when he does line work on street cars, they do get a darker "patina" over time

What he said!


Not sure what you meant by the shifting question but PPG gears are stronger and replace the existing gears already in the transmission. I bought PPG gears back in 2006 for $3200 - this was for 1-2 straight and 3-4 helical. I think I spent about another $200 for PPG syncros at the time and Andrewtech did the install. I was told if I wanted to do dog engagement, that would've required some additional modification to the trans housing and I've heard a dog box is great for racing but can be a pain for daily driving.

Righto. These are just straight cut PPG gears which are a lot stronger. I decided to stick with synchros instead of doing the dog box engagement. Dog boxes are cool, but a pain to drive around. Downshifting requires reasonably precise engine speed control. I think my entire cost, including purchasing a WRX transmission was around 6k.. but I'll have to double check. That includes the gears (1-4 straight cut), new syncros, plus a new Cusco 1.5 front diff.

Jeff

[Sgt.Gator]

Did you use the 07-09 LGT gearing? 3.166 / 1.882 / 1.296 / 0.972 / 0.738 / 3.900FD

[sponaugle]

Did you use the 07-09 LGT gearing? 3.166 / 1.882 / 1.296 / 0.972 / 0.738 / 3.900FD

I need to double check, but I am pretty sure the gearing is in green. With a mid 10 second 1/4 mile time I would need to be in the mid 130s for MPH, and that is well withing the range of 4th gear.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TranGears.png

[Aero STI]

Summary: They work well, but have some significant downsides. I don't know of any other system that is better, and for my 818 I am going to roll my own. I'll be making PCBs for the controller, and putting everything in open source so if anyone wants to use the stuff they can. I suspect I will end up using the 4D system displays Aero STI mentioned above. They are cheap (less then $100), and I can roll my own controller PCB that can read sensors, do CAN bus, etc.
Jeff

Jeff, I've got a few hours fiddling with the 4D systems displays and I have a few observations. I like them so far in terms of how to do the visual display configuration and mapping to variables for changes. The software is very intuitive. It basically pre-generates a bunch of images that are stored on a micro SD card, then you upload the code that tells the display which image to display based on some event. The code is basically a C derivative, easy to learn the syntax but there are a few minor quirks. Communication has been a bit of a stumbling point. Regular Serial and SPI are straight forward, but I2C is being a pain. I've done a lot of work with I2C on arduinos, but the diablo 16 chip they're using in these displays is a bit odd. It can only act as an I2C master. I think I'm going to use an arduino mega as my brain to take in all of the sensor information in and log it, then probably use SPI to communicate to the display(s). The more I work with them I'm considering a couple of the round displays near my gauge cluster, then a single 7" touch display for deciding what goes on what display. It seems plausible to replace the entire Subaru cluster. I'll gladly share my source with you as things progress.

[Sgt.Gator]

I like the PPG gearing ratios. Much better than stock WRX. With the M Factory calculator and 245/45/17 tires I see 4th at 144 mph. With the 295/35/18 it goes to 147 mph. That should do it. The M Factory calculator has a nice comparative graphing function for anyone interested...http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalculator.php

[Frank818]

Hey tnx for that link Sergent!
I entered my values and cross-ref'ed with my long time excel sheet to discover my excel sheet was spot on everywhere.

[sponaugle]

Jeff, I've got a few hours fiddling with the 4D systems displays and I have a few observations. I like them so far in terms of how to do the visual display configuration and mapping to variables for changes. The software is very intuitive. It basically pre-generates a bunch of images that are stored on a micro SD card, then you upload the code that tells the display which image to display based on some event. The code is basically a C derivative, easy to learn the syntax but there are a few minor quirks. Communication has been a bit of a stumbling point. Regular Serial and SPI are straight forward, but I2C is being a pain. I've done a lot of work with I2C on arduinos, but the diablo 16 chip they're using in these displays is a bit odd. It can only act as an I2C master. I think I'm going to use an arduino mega as my brain to take in all of the sensor information in and log it, then probably use SPI to communicate to the display(s). The more I work with them I'm considering a couple of the round displays near my gauge cluster, then a single 7" touch display for deciding what goes on what display. It seems plausible to replace the entire Subaru cluster. I'll gladly share my source with you as things progress.

Good observations. My displays will be here tomorrow so I'll dig into them as well. I too would like to use I2C, so that will be something to figure out. I like the idea of a few round displays with a central touch display. Like you suggested that makes it easy to have a menu system on the central display that can control all of the displays.

I think I am going to use a BeagleBone Black. I like the Arduinos, and I used the Mega in a few other projects, but the power of having a real OS is enticing. WIth the BeagleBone driving the displays I can have other processes running that read from the RaceCapture for sensors, CAN bus to the factory ECU, as well as nice web page configurations. As a bonus I can have the Beaglebone automaticly log all of the time and upload logs to the internet over Wifi when I get home. Doing I2C on the beaglebone is pretty easy, as is CAN. And it only cost $50!

Agreed on the source... I'll share up everything I do. I'll certainly make a small PCB with all of the interface components so if that is usable by other even better.



I like the PPG gearing ratios. Much better than stock WRX. With the M Factory calculator and 245/45/17 tires I see 4th at 144 mph. With the 295/35/18 it goes to 147 mph. That should do it. The M Factory calculator has a nice comparative graphing function for anyone interested...http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalculator.php


Hey tnx for that link Sergent!
I entered my values and cross-ref'ed with my long time excel sheet to discover my excel sheet was spot on everywhere.

Cool link.. and yea, those gear ratios look good. I would not need to get out of 4th gear in the 1/4 mile which is nice. I have a good source for E98 which is the fuel I'm leaning towards. Take a look at what the guys at English Racing and ETS have done running E98 in their GT-R: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpTX4xUNgrc. That is 0-60 in 1.5 secs, 0-182 MPH in 7.8 seconds. That's zippy.

Jeff

[Sgt.Gator]

That's crazy fast!
I've been following the discourse in MetallMakers thread on AWIC, IAT, etc.....Question: In the past I have used water/meth injection very successfully on a Mazdaspeed 6 using email tunes done by Christian. I still have all the parts and could easily put it in my LGT race car or the 818. However water/meth has the problem of if nothing pumps you could spike IATs and blow the engine. I know they make fail safes that jump in and drop boost if the system doesn't read any water flow. My question is will a fast acting IAT sensor post IC act fast enough to also adjust boost if the spray stops in the middle of a WOT? Will an SD tune react fast enough under the same circumstances?
Thanks!

[Aero STI]

Jeff, I like your idea of using the beaglebone black. I assume you've seen the Cape display that 4d systems offers that interfaces directly? Maybe you ordered one. I've done a lot of work with the R-pi and considered that as well. I've got a couple 4D displays that can connect directly to the PI, haven't used them yet though. I've recently started playing with the new dual core minnowboard max. I'm a huge .NET fan, so I may explore running windows 8.1 embedded as my brain. Lots of options for sure. Keep me posted on what you ultimately decide because it would be nice if we were doing something very similar so code was very reusable.

I got I2C sorted, at least to talk to an accelerometer/magnetometer combo board that I had laying around. I will get it communicating to arduino this week. The biggest difference compared to what I'm used to is in how the displays initiate communication with the slave. On the arduino it automatically adjusts the slave address LSB for read and write. The diablo 16 in the 4d displays does not. Also, it seems that the write commands automatically check for the slave to send an ACK, but the read command does not respond to the slave with an ACK. Little stuff that would have been easy to sort out with a logic analyzer, but I was being stubborn and didn't want to go and grab one.

I'm excited to hear your progress on this front.

[Boog]

I love my Saleae Logic (8 input.) At the time $150 seemed pretty steep considering all the microcontrollers I was picking up were <$5, but it has ended up saving me a large number of hours in trying to interface random and/or ancient chips and components. It shortens a lot of those "They are indexing in octal?" type discoveries.

[sponaugle]

That's crazy fast!
I've been following the discourse in MetallMakers thread on AWIC, IAT, etc.....Question: In the past I have used water/meth injection very successfully on a Mazdaspeed 6 using email tunes done by Christian. I still have all the parts and could easily put it in my LGT race car or the 818. However water/meth has the problem of if nothing pumps you could spike IATs and blow the engine. I know they make fail safes that jump in and drop boost if the system doesn't read any water flow. My question is will a fast acting IAT sensor post IC act fast enough to also adjust boost if the spray stops in the middle of a WOT? Will an SD tune react fast enough under the same circumstances?
Thanks!

Over the years I have used a lot of water and meth injection systems, and was even a dealer for Aquamist for a while. I have a system in my GTO, and a dormant one in my 08 STI.

You would not want to use IAT alone as a mechanism for safety with a meth injection system. The addition of a meth spray might reduce IAT a bit, but the real gain is the additional octane and the evaporative properties in the combustion chamber. IAT would not see those effects. Meth injection is a mixed bag. I have tuned tons of cars with them, and honestly most of them ended up grenading an engine. It was not always directly a result of the meth injection failing, but often. Aquamist has some good failsafe stuff that works.... they have a real flowmeter that can detect a clogged or open nozzle and trigger a change to the ECU or wastegate. It would be possible, for instance, to have that system trigger a relay that changes the IAT to a failsafe value that the ECU is programmed to pull lots of timing and cut boost. That is a common method. You could also directly cut power to the wastegate solenoid.

I don't use meth injection much any more just because it is a pain to maintain. You really want to have high quality methanol, and you don't want to spill that stuff on your skin. The nozzle are easy to get leaks in, the pumps fail, and the connectors are not great. I just use better fuel (E85 or E98). Methanol injection works, make no mistake, but so does a good fuel, and you already have a kick *** fuel injection system in the car.


Jeff, I like your idea of using the beaglebone black. I assume you've seen the Cape display that 4d systems offers that interfaces directly? Maybe you ordered one. I've done a lot of work with the R-pi and considered that as well. I've got a couple 4D displays that can connect directly to the PI, haven't used them yet though. I've recently started playing with the new dual core minnowboard max. I'm a huge .NET fan, so I may explore running windows 8.1 embedded as my brain. Lots of options for sure. Keep me posted on what you ultimately decide because it would be nice if we were doing something very similar so code was very reusable.

I got I2C sorted, at least to talk to an accelerometer/magnetometer combo board that I had laying around. I will get it communicating to arduino this week. The biggest difference compared to what I'm used to is in how the displays initiate communication with the slave. On the arduino it automatically adjusts the slave address LSB for read and write. The diablo 16 in the 4d displays does not. Also, it seems that the write commands automatically check for the slave to send an ACK, but the read command does not respond to the slave with an ACK. Little stuff that would have been easy to sort out with a logic analyzer, but I was being stubborn and didn't want to go and grab one.

I'm excited to hear your progress on this front.

Yea that cape is cool. I'm working on my own cape PCB so I can have the CAN drivers, Bluetooth chipset, some analog interfaces, and the display interfaces. I suspect I'll have the beaglebone in a case next to the factory ECU. Windows 8.1 imbedded would be cool. That MinnowBoard Max is interesting, and it has decent CPU power plus onboard graphics. I do feel a bit betraying using an ARM processor in my design given I started my career at Intel and am still part of the Intel family! So many great choices in platforms to develop on. It makes an EE smile.

Glad to hear you got the I2C sorted. I'll take note of the tips you mentioned.


I love my Saleae Logic (8 input.) At the time $150 seemed pretty steep considering all the microcontrollers I was picking up were <$5, but it has ended up saving me a large number of hours in trying to interface random and/or ancient chips and components. It shortens a lot of those "They are indexing in octal?" type discoveries.

Yea, a good logic analyzer is a nice tool to have, and they have dropped in price so much. That one has nice software, and for something like this where you are looking at a protocol like I2C I bet it works great. I am a bit old school in this front, as I use a pair of these:

http://jvgavila.com/hp16702a.jpg.

They are nice if you have a lot of signals that need correlation. I do everything over X from my PC, and I have some nice 500MHZ capture cards as well as the 2 and 4G logic cards. You can pick these up on ebay for under $1000, and you can reinstall HPUX from CD and get a fresh system. There is a great hack to get all of the decoders as well. You never know when you need to capture 128 digital lines at the same time!!!

I'm sure the non EE types watching this thread are wondering what the hell we are talking about. :)

On the mechanical front my Cosworth heads should be done early this week so I can finish up the longblock. I went out to the drag strip Friday night for the first time in months and my good friend Tim from Cobb brought out is 2004 STI that we assembled in my garage. It ran a nice 10.88 1/4 mile, and did a 137mph trap speed in one of the runs. That isn't bad for a 2.5L with a stock transmission.

Jeff

[flynntuna]

:confused:

It Think I'm one of the non EE types. Lol Even after google searches, still scratching my head but understanding enough to be dangerous. :eek:

[Bob_n_Cincy]

About 10 years ago I used a Dataq D1-149 for $59 (was $39 then)
Gives me 8 channels of 10v bipolar analog and 4 digitals.

http://www.dataq.com/products/di-149/

It doesn't have memory so you have to hook it up to a PC for data acquisition (it comes with software and can export to MS Excel.

This would be great if you just wanted to load up the car with temp sensor and see if everything is good.

Now that I think about it. Might be easier to use a mega and dump in on an SD shield.
Bob

[sponaugle]

I put together a few quick dash screens. These are too small on the 4.3 screen, so I ordered a 7" screen. This could be the center screen of the dash, and there would be 2 dial screens on each side.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/NewDash-4d-1.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/NewDash-4d-2.jpg

Jeff

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Jeff
Who makes that screen and how much?
Do you think it's sunlight readable?

This is a controller I have used on a lot of electric vehicles.
It's only about a 4" screen.

33447

[Hindsight]

Hi Jeff, quick question on those copper-nickel brake lines: Did you bother using a tool (tubing radius or bending pliers) or just bend them with your hands as needed? IE if you use your hands, do they stay round and not kink?

Thanks!

-Jeff

[sponaugle]

Hi Jeff, quick question on those copper-nickel brake lines: Did you bother using a tool (tubing radius or bending pliers) or just bend them with your hands as needed? IE if you use your hands, do they stay round and not kink?

Thanks!

-Jeff

I had a bending tool, and used it a few times.. however once I got the hang of it I could bend the lines better by hand. It is certainly possible to bend by hand and get nice smooth transitions with no kinks. This stuff is easier to work with then steel lines.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

Hi Jeff
Who makes that screen and how much?
Do you think it's sunlight readable?

This is a controller I have used on a lot of electric vehicles.
It's only about a 4" screen.


These displays are from 4D Systems (http://www.4dsystems.com.au/products). I will have to test them when it comes to sunlight. They are not super bright, so I suspect I may have some problems with that. I plan on having a set of RPM LEDs (bright) above this display, as well as a bright 7-segment RPM display, which is very readable in sunlight. I just ordered the 7" display which I think will work better. I am driving the displays from a BeagleBone Black, which I have configured to do CAN bus to the ECU plus SPI to an A/D controller/PWM input ( PIC24F ).

My primary goal is to have a display for things like IAT pre/post, 6x EGTs, 2x AFRs, Exhaust Backpressure, etc.

Jeff

[Aero STI]

Good work on the display Jeff. It looks great and I bet it took all of 30 minutes to get things to look that way. I went through the 4D catalog and bought one of each size from the round display up to the 7" since I didn't know what would be best in the 818. I figured I would eventually find some application for each size.

I got SPI working today on my display and just like I2C, the Diablo 16 chip has to run as master. The beaglebone black has two SPI channels, but still something to consider.

[longislandwrx]

I had a bending tool, and used it a few times.. however once I got the hang of it I could bend the lines better by hand. It is certainly possible to bend by hand and get nice smooth transitions with no kinks. This stuff is easier to work with then steel lines.

Jeff

Agreed, I just use sockets to get the radius I am looking for, even steel lines come out great with a little muscle.

[sponaugle]

Small update:

I am still waiting for my heads from the machine shop. They are Cosworth heads and need the valves replaced. The valves from Cosworth are on backorder (and will be for some time). I ended up getting a set of Supertec +1mm valves, but it turns out Supertecs +1mm is not the same as Cosworths +1mm. ( The cosworth is more like +1.2mm). It looks like ferrea valves are the same size as the Cosworth, so those are now on order.

I did work on the wire harness a bit more.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WireInCar1.jpg

I installed the harness in the chassis first to see how the layout was working. The front fuse box was the biggest pain. I have it placed in the center channel, and I will make a custom door on the drivers side console to get to that.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WireInCar2.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WireInCar3.jpg

Placement of the rear fuse/relay box is questionable. I will probably make a bracket, but I want it to fit inbetween the front and rear firewall with an access door.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WireInCar4.jpg

Console in test placement. I'll need to add a door to the inside driver side so I can get to the embedded fuse panel. I got the placement of the shifter and the parking brake and it looks good.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WireInCar5.jpg

I took the wire harness back out of the car and wrapped all of them up with tubing, heatshrink or tape depending on location. Everything is back in the car now.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WireInCar6.jpg

The view from the back with all the harnesses extended and wrapped up.

Having done it this way, I would not do it this way again. When I switch motors after registration I am going to replace the harness with my own. While it might be a bit more work upfront, I think there is a ton of waste and extra weight using the entire stock harness. Having a single fuse panel/relay panel, as well as simplified wiring so things up front stay up front would make a much cleaner install. I am lucky that I have a complete extra 06 STI main harness so I can use that one to get all of the factory connectors that I need.

Jeff

[Hindsight]

Jeff,

Have you installed a race logic traction control system in any of your other vehicles? Seems like the installation should be fairly straight forward in the 818 so long as you retain the ABS system no? I have never been a fan of traction control because my experience with it has been with OEM systems that kill performance instead of improve it (my old S4 would just kill the throttle for like 3 or 4 seconds on wheel slip). But after reading up more on the race logic system, I think I am completely sold.

[sponaugle]

Jeff,

Have you installed a race logic traction control system in any of your other vehicles? Seems like the installation should be fairly straight forward in the 818 so long as you retain the ABS system no? I have never been a fan of traction control because my experience with it has been with OEM systems that kill performance instead of improve it (my old S4 would just kill the throttle for like 3 or 4 seconds on wheel slip). But after reading up more on the race logic system, I think I am completely sold.

Yes, I have the 8-cylinder version in my GTO:

Results here: http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=522194
Install details here: http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=522370

You don't need to 'retain the ABS'.. you just need to retain the ABS wheel speed sensors. Everything else could be deleted.

The graphs in the results thread are very telling.

This one tells the story pretty well:
http://www.sponaugle.com/post/GTO/TC/1stGearWheelSlipComp.png

Good Stuff.

[Plebeian]

Jeff, I just read this thread today, WOW. You are setting the bar very high. I have a couple questions for you. What are you going to do about a rollbar to be allowed to drag race? PIR is not fond of fast convertibles without a full halo cage (based on how they have treated me in my Cobra). Since your car will be street driven, is the 105 octane of E85 (available at multiple pumps around town) not high enough that you require the E98? Was that you tracking your GTR at PIR last weekend?

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the info Jeff, I'm definitely sold.

Regarding PIR....... I remember how many times I showed up to race and was sent home before finally getting everything just "right" to be able to drag race there. Not fun. Regarding the halo cage, I'm curious about that as well because it applies to more than just PIR - any NHRA sanctioned track requires it but there is some grey area (mostly due to the fact that our cars are roadsters and not convertibles - but good luck arguing that with the tech inspectors - especially PIR). This issue comes up a lot with the FFR Roadster guys. Lots of threads on the roadster forum (especially the "other" roadster forum) discussing this.

[Turn In Concepts]

Thanks. I did a quick new set of lines on one of the pictures:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/AdjustedBumpSteer.jpg

They are much closer together now.



Thanks! It has been a fun build so far.

That video is hilarious! I am going to have to give Jeff a hard time on Monday. I have those wheels in the attic of my shop.. they are just too ugly to keep looking at! :)




Yes... Mick was part of the PDXTuning gang so I've know him for a long time. He has a very cool yellow WRX wagon track machine with a dry sump setup.

I think your LCA line is off a bit. It should be running through the center of the pivot point of the ball joint which is further down. Your original picture set was correct.

[Wayne Presley]

I think your LCA line is off a bit. It should be running through the center of the pivot point of the ball joint which is further down. Your original picture set was correct.

nope, second pic is correct

[Turn In Concepts]

You're right. I was looking at it backwards. For some reason I was thinking of an Evo control arm likely due to the fact that I was under one this morning. :)

Tony

[sponaugle]

Entirely unrelated to my 818, I had my GT-R on the dyno last night. I changed out the turbochargers for a slightly larger set and upgraded the fuel system with a pair of W460s and 6 1300cc injectors. A nice 752whp. Car is snappy.

http://www.sponaugle.com/post/SBD800-6.png


However good news on the 818 front as my heads are done and ready for pickup, so I can get this car rolling!

Jeff

[bompus]

my GT-R

Lucky! Rub it in why don't you :)

[Wayne Presley]

Car is snappy.

Jeff

Hi my name is Jeff and I have a problem with understatements....

[Hindsight]

Right?? Snappy is a miata.... Or a Focus SVT.

[MrDude_1]

Right?? Snappy is a miata.... Or a Focus SVT.

I actually thought it was an accurate statement. You have to remember how much the GT-R weighs.

Then again, I referred to a 220hp 400lb sportbike and a 110hp 200lb supermoto as "snappy"... so maybe I just like the term too.

[Hindsight]

Yeah there is a reason they call it "Godzilla".

Jeff, just think, you'll only need about 360hp in the 818 to get similar acceleration performance (assuming you can get traction of course).

[sponaugle]

Hi my name is Jeff and I have a problem with understatements....

Hahahah. I guess that is better than overstatements!


Yeah there is a reason they call it "Godzilla".
Jeff, just think, you'll only need about 360hp in the 818 to get similar acceleration performance (assuming you can get traction of course).

Yea.. good point! My GT-R weighs in at about 3840 lbs. My 818 with the EZ30R will probably be something in the 1900-2000 lbs. That puts my GT-R at 5.12 lb/whp. I can get 600whp out of the EZ30R which would be 3.1-3.3 lb/whp... so that is indeed a bit more.

Of course traction will be the limiting factor... that and the transmission. The shifting is so fast on the GT-R... It will take some work on my part to catch that time back up.


I actually thought it was an accurate statement. You have to remember how much the GT-R weighs.
Then again, I referred to a 220hp 400lb sportbike and a 110hp 200lb supermoto as "snappy"... so maybe I just like the term too.

Yep. The Saturn V is fast. My car is snappy. :)

Honestly part of the conservativism is because in the GT-R world 750whp is serious weak sauce. There are so many GT-Rs above 1000whp... and the AMS Omega GT-R.... dear god... 0-60 in 1.53 seconds, 0-100 in 2.79 seconds. Now that deserves something stronger then snappy!

Jeff

[sponaugle]

I have started work on the EZ30R harness. I am using a Vipec V88 ECM to control the engine, and the ViPEC uses TE Superseal 1.0 connectors. I got a couple sets of connectors and a few hundred pins. If anyone else builds a harness like this, this crimper:

http://milspecwiring.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=54_55&product_id=417

works great with these superseal pins.. and is a lot cheaper then then the TE tool.

For wire I am using M22759/16 Tefzel wire, which is a great milspec motorsport wire.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WireInCar7.jpg

I got the wire from ProwireUSA, which has a great selection of multiple striped colors. I decided to use the classic Deutsch DTM connectors for harness to harness, and Prowire also has those.

If anyone else is doing an EZ30R I'm happy to share my wiring spreadsheet.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/VipecAConnector.png

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/VipecBConnector.png

[Boog]

What are the advantages of mil spec wire over 'generic automotive' wire? Insulation corrosion resistance, reduced signal crosstalk, heat dissipation, etc? Conductor consistency, resistance, material, winding, etc? I don't doubt that there are good reasons to go mil spec, I'm just curious what they are.

Also, how did you decide on a wire gauge? I'd love to have some good criteria of "If X and Y, you can use 20 gauge. If A and B, you should be using 16 gauge." Some items like a starter have a known draw so its easy to consult a amps/length->gauge chart, but lots of items like say an ABS pump trigger or a signal wire to the cluster etc, have me scratching my head. So far I was just planning on mimicking the wire gauge used in the original harness as best I can, but it would be great to learn the right way to go about it.

[metalmaker12]

Wow!!! This is sick stuff!!

[sponaugle]

What are the advantages of mil spec wire over 'generic automotive' wire? Insulation corrosion resistance, reduced signal crosstalk, heat dissipation, etc? Conductor consistency, resistance, material, winding, etc? I don't doubt that there are good reasons to go mil spec, I'm just curious what they are.


There are people who spend their careers spec’ing wire, but I’ll give my 3.141 cents about it.

Most generic wire you would buy at an autoparts store is “PVC”. It is typically bare copper with polyvinylchloride insulation, and is good for to about 175 degrees F. There are a few higher end PVC based wires (sometimes strangely marked as SAE J-1128), and some of these have a higher temperature range, but still low abrasion resistance.

This kind of wire can work fine, but it is certainly the low end of the barrel. Pretty much all cars use better wire then this.

The next level up is something like GXL, which is a thin wall cross-linked polyethylene insulation (XLPE). This insulation is good to 257 degrees F, and has better abrasion resistance than PVC. This is good stuff, and if you are going to stock your wire bar with some wire, this is a good place to start. (skip the cheap "primary wire"). It is pretty flexible and will fit into most standard automotive connectors.

You can get this from places like ProWire, Del City, and a bunch of others.. It is usually referred to as ‘cross-linked’ wire.

SXL is a thicker wall version of GXL, with the same temperature range. It is a bit less flexible, but still easy to use. The thicker wall is a bit better abrasion resistance. TXL is a thinner version of SXL, but I would stick with GXL and SXL for most applications. TXL is nice for harness that have limited space. If you buy a wire kit from someone like painless, this is what they use. ( TXL and GXL ).

Next up the line is the 22759/16 Tefzel wire I am using. Tefzel is a Dupont trade name for ETFE (Ethylene tetrafluoroethylene). This is an excellent wire for motorsports use, and is a tinned copper wire. It is lighter than SXL by a noticeable amount, and slightly more compact due to the thinner and harder insulation. If you were to handle the wire it has a slightly harder surface feel, sort of like the difference between a counter top and a vinyl floor. It has very good abrasion resistance, especially wire to wire (in harnesses). It has better gasoline and oil resistance, and is good to 300 degrees F.

The top of the line for motorsports is probably Spec 55. It is also called MIL 22759/32 and /35. It uses a cross linked ETFE polymer (called XLETFE), which is even better than the normal Tefzel stuff. You can get single wall and double wall Spec 55. The double wall is of course very abrasion resistant and good to almost 400 degrees F. This is used in a lot of aircraft applications (notably the Boeing 777).

There are other types, like Aromatic Polyimide (KAPTON) and TKT that are really good wire for aerospace applications.

As for prices:
100 ft of parts store grade 'primary wire' is about $6
100 ft of GXL is about $9
100 ft of ETFE-Tefzel is about $20
100 ft of Spec 55 is about $30

At a minimum, get the GXL stuff. Obviously prices go up at each level, and if you are trying to trim down every last ounce ( and you know who I am talking about!! ), the Tefzel/Spec 55 is the way to go.

I am sure there are other people on this forum that are more knowledgeable about wire types so feel free to add to the conversation.

[sponaugle]

Also, how did you decide on a wire gauge? I'd love to have some good criteria of "If X and Y, you can use 20 gauge. If A and B, you should be using 16 gauge." Some items like a starter have a known draw so its easy to consult a amps/length->gauge chart, but lots of items like say an ABS pump trigger or a signal wire to the cluster etc, have me scratching my head. So far I was just planning on mimicking the wire gauge used in the original harness as best I can, but it would be great to learn the right way to go about it.

Gauge is typically picked based on amperage. In the case of a car harness, length is usually less than 15 feet or so. I am using 20 gauge for circuits that go to the ECU and are low amperage (most of the circuits). For the fuel injectors and solenoids I am using 16 gauge, which is certainly plenty given the current demands.

Things that are signal wires (CAN bus, things that go to the dash, controls, etc) are very low current, and 20 gauge is plenty. I suspect that in 818 most circuit paths will be shorter so the demand for larger gauge is even less. Probably the highest current demand circuits post fuse box are the head and tail lights, power to things like the ABS pump, ECU power, and relay power for things like the DBW throttle. For those I have used 16 gauge. In looking at the factory harness there are a few power circuits (going to the relay box for example) that use 12 gauge wire, and I would do the same.

The risk in running a wire that is too small is two factor... one is heat, and the other is resistance. If you have a high resistance wire ( small wire ) with a lot of current it will have higher voltage drop and produce more heat. At the extreme end of the spectrum you could start a fire.. however that is actually not that likely to occur. Most circuits are fuse protected enough to prevent that.

If all else fails I would always tend to default to a thicker wire, but don't go too far with that as it adds unneeded weight and bulk.

I have seen far more circuit failures because of terrible solder joints and bad crimp jobs then everything else combined.

A really well done crimp is much better than a solder joint. I personally like these crimps:

http://www.delcity.net/store/Heat-Shrink-Clear!View-Butt-Connectors/p_805406

.. as they are a combined crimp and heat shrink. Some people prefer to use non insulated crimps covered with heat shrink, which works well as long as you use a good thick and strong heat shrink.

Jeff

[Jaime]

A really well done crimp is much stronger then a solder joint.
Absolutely. But, nothing is worse than a bad crimp where the wire works its way out of the crimp and causes intermittent connection problems. I would say if you can afford good crimps and tools, then that's what you should do. The best economy option is to solder and cover with adhesive lined heat shrink. The heat shrink will give the joint some rigidity and help combat the tendency of soldered connections to break due to repeated flexing where the solder ends.

I went through 20 feet of heat shrink on my build.

For anyone else trying to reproduce what you are doing - that pile of wire is worth about $400 assuming those are all 100 foot spools.

Waytek (http://www.waytekwire.com) sells GXL for a little more than 5 cents per foot, but they have a minimum of 250 feet per color and no striped colors. Most of us mortals would use fewer color anyways because of the additional expense that comes from ordering smaller spools or wasting more wire. That way you can do ten colors for around $140.

Most of my wiring is 18ga for low current circuits and 16ga for big loads like headlights and motors (heater blower, AWIC pump).

Deutsch DTM connectors are pretty much the best you can get, but they only go up to 12 pins. Molex MX150 connectors go up to 20 pins and can use standards crimp tools.

[sponaugle]

Absolutely. But, nothing is worse than a bad crimp where the wire works its way out of the crimp and causes intermittent connection problems. I would say if you can afford good crimps and tools, then that's what you should do. The best economy option is to solder and cover with adhesive lined heat shrink. The heat shrink will give the joint some rigidity and help combat the tendency of soldered connections to break due to repeated flexing where the solder ends.


Yep.. you are spot on. Bad crimps are perhaps the worst.. especially with exposed wire. Just a small amount of vibration and the wire will break. The only downside of the solder and heat wrap is the solder joint itself is pretty firm (not flexible), which creates a common failure where the solder ends. The key is to use enough heat shrink and to position the solder joint so it is not in a flexing location. Of course with a crimp you can have the same problem which is why I like the heat shrink crimps that are a bit flexible on the ends.



I went through 20 feet of heat shrink on my build.


Yea. it is amazing how much of this stuff you can use!



For anyone else trying to reproduce what you are doing - that pile of wire is worth about $400 assuming those are all 100 foot spools.
Waytek (http://www.waytekwire.com) sells GXL for a little more than 5 cents per foot, but they have a minimum of 250 feet per color and no striped colors. Most of us mortals would use fewer color anyways because of the additional expense that comes from ordering smaller spools or wasting more wire. That way you can do ten colors for around $140.


Yes, that order was almost $600 as prices are a bit higher for some of the less common color patterns (and I got some 16 gauge as well).
That is a good price for the GXL wire.



Most of my wiring is 18ga for low current circuits and 16ga for big loads like headlights and motors (heater blower, AWIC pump).
Deutsch DTM connectors are pretty much the best you can get, but they only go up to 12 pins. Molex MX150 connectors go up to 20 pins and can use standards crimp tools.

I love the DTM connectors... the barrel crimp works very well, and the connectors are very heat resistant. It is true that the connector count in limited, and they are not super compact. That MX150 is a nice connector!

I also like the HDP20 Deutsch connectors:

http://d2kmxso4hn1htz.cloudfront.net/assets/images/pages/deutsch-connectors/hdp20-series-assembler-main.jpg

They have 6 to 47 pin connectors in a very good metal shielded mil-spec housing. I ordered a couple of the HDP20s to try out.

Jeff

[Scargo]

I used to do Mil-Spec wiring many moons ago. Jeff has a good explanation and I could not agree more. Cheap stuff has a low abrasion resistance but the insulation also splits with the smallest scratch. I would never use PVC in an engine compartment, let alone anywhere else in my car.
My independent research came up with many of the same resources for wire and I planned on using the same style of splices. I was actually surprised that soldered together wires can be problematic if they can move at all.
I like the idea of signal carrying wires being 20 gauge.
Not discussed was the fuel pump power wire, which might be best addressed locally with a relay so there aren't multiple higher amperage wires running front to back.
Jeff, I cannot find the connectors like you have in the picture based on your info. 34 pin?
And, oh crap... another crimping tool I need to buy!

[Jaime]

Jeff, I cannot find the connectors like you have in the picture based on your info. 34 pin?
18 pin.. here (http://www.wirecare.com/deutsch-connectors.asp?type=industrial&series=hdp20&contacts=18).

[Jaime]

Also, WireCare will rent out the crimper for $25.

[sponaugle]

18 pin.. here (http://www.wirecare.com/deutsch-connectors.asp?type=industrial&series=hdp20&contacts=18).

Yea.. all of them here:

http://www.wirecare.com/deutsch-connectors.asp?type=industrial&series=hdp20&contacts=47

They have a good range of sizes..Plus for things like power busses they have some cool mixed size in the HDP10..

[Boog]

Great info. I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond.

[sponaugle]

I used to do Mil-Spec wiring many moons ago. Jeff has a good explanation and I could not agree more. Cheap stuff has a low abrasion resistance but the insulation also splits with the smallest scratch. I would never use PVC in an engine compartment, let alone anywhere else in my car.
My independent research came up with many of the same resources for wire and I planned on using the same style of splices. I was actually surprised that soldered together wires can be problematic if they can move at all.
I like the idea of signal carrying wires being 20 gauge.
Not discussed was the fuel pump power wire, which might be best addressed locally with a relay so there aren't multiple higher amperage wires running front to back.
Jeff, I cannot find the connectors like you have in the picture based on your info. 34 pin?
And, oh crap... another crimping tool I need to buy!

Yea, the crimping tools can be expensive! For my fuel pump I am using a relay that is very close to the pump so the control wire from the ECM is a small 18 gauge wire. The fuel pump is one of the fuel places that the gauge really matters a lot.

Here is a snippet from a post on GTR-Life where I am talking about direct wiring the fuel pumps



The stock wires to the fuel pump controller appear to be 16 gauge, which has a typical resistance of 4 ohms/1000ft. If I were to guess I would say there is about 10 feet of wire between the pump and the battery ( thru the IPDM ). That would be a resistance of .04 ohms. Let's assume that connectors and the fuse box adds .02 ohms for a total resistance of to .06 ohms. Worst case a Walbro 460 will draw about 16 amps at 65psi of fuel pressure. That would be a voltage drop of 0.96 volts. That is a reasonable significant amount of drop.

I added a 4 gauge line from the battery to the fuel pump area, and will use that to power both pumps. A 4 gauge wire is about .4 ohms/1000 feet. I am running the wire directly down the side of the car, and the distance is about 6 feet. In the case of the first pump, let's just consider the voltage to the FPCM. Since this one line will drive both pumps, let's assume 32 amps total current. That would net a resistance of .0024 ohms, and a voltage drop of .07 volts. That is a significant difference.


If you are pushing the fuel pumps and getting 15-16 amps of current, you should make sure the lines to the fuel pump are of sufficient gauge. Since there is already a nice beefy battery cable coming to the back of the 818, I would connect that, thru a fuse, to a relay for the fuel pump.

This doesn't really apply if you are using the factory FPCM, as that has a much larger voltage drop built in.

The nice thing about the heat shrink crimps is that the heat shrink ends are somewhat soft and couple directly to the insulation. That gives a transition from the hard center of the crimp, which reduces problems with vibrations. The key to vibration failures are avoiding 'sharp' transitions. If you have a very hard non flexible crimp (the cheap autoparts store PVC ones) connecting to a soft wire with a flexible copper center, as the wire moves it will form a break at that transition. It can be mitigated a bit with heat shrink, especially the sealing heat shrink. Of course the best design it to not have flex occur near those connections.

If you have all of your wires inside loom and taped you are even better off as that limits movement a lot.

Speaking of loom.. for wires in the engine bay this stuff is awesome: http://www.wirecare.com/products.asp?prodline=fg

It is called insultherm.. not split loom so you need to plan in advance, but if you have some wires (EGT probes, etc) going right next to a header, this stuff works well.

Jeff

[Jaime]

If you are pushing the fuel pumps and getting 15-16 amps of current, you should make sure the lines to the fuel pump are of sufficient gauge. Since there is already a nice beefy battery cable coming to the back of the 818, I would connect that, thru a fuse, to a relay for the fuel pump.

Or move the fuse box and fuel pump relay under the hump, two feet from the fuel pump. I also ran 10 gauge wire from the fuel pump relay to the pump.

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/20140803_115203_zps6pukpgyi.jpg


The nice thing about the heat shrink crimps is that the heat shrink ends are somewhat soft and couple directly to the insulation. That gives a transition from the hard center of the crimp, which reduces problems with vibrations. The key to vibration failures are avoiding 'sharp' transitions. If you have a very hard non flexible crimp (the cheap autoparts store PVC ones) connecting to a soft wire with a flexible copper center, as the wire moves it will form a break at that transition. It can be mitigated a bit with heat shrink, especially the sealing heat shrink. Of course the best design it to not have flex occur near those connections.

I don't like crimping through insulation, you don't get that nice fold-over where the ends of the metal go right into the strands of the wire. Just buy the ones from the auto parts zone, pry off the PCV and heat shrink over the connection.

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/20141109_140143_zpsbgejgo08.jpg

[sponaugle]

Or move the fuse box and fuel pump relay under the hump, two feet from the fuel pump. I also ran 10 gauge wire from the fuel pump relay to the pump.
I don't like crimping through insulation, you don't get that nice fold-over where the ends of the metal go right into the strands of the wire. Just buy the ones from the auto parts zone, pry off the PCV and heat shrink over the connection.


That is a nice setup! Very neat and tidy. Hmmm...

Jeff

[sponaugle]

Update: I finally got around to picking up my heads.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/BlockHeads4.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/BlockHeads2.jpg

These are Cosworth 06 STI heads with Cosworth valves and cams.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/BlockHeads1.jpg

The block has been sitting ready for the heads for a month now..

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/BlockHeads3.jpg

And we have mating. Now I can get the engine finished up..Bucket sizing is next.

Jeff

[Jaime]

That is a nice setup! Very neat and tidy. Hmmm...

Jeff
Thanks. I'm quite proud of what I did for the fuse box. Here's a better picture of the unit with the covers off:

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/20140802_220649_zpsnm5hst2h.jpg

The switch on the right is to go into test mode. The three 50A relays on top are for the starter, fuel pump, and the main relay. I re-wired the starter interlock circuit so that I only run relay coil current through the ignition switch. That saved me about 30 feet of 10 gauge wire - along with the bulk and weight that come along with large gauge wire.

[P.3]

Jeff, please check PM

[Plebeian]

Any updates?

[sponaugle]

Update:

Progress has been pretty slow due to other projects. I have been working on the GT-R, as well as rewiring my 02 Bugeye. The Bugeye is now running a Vipec with the EZ30R, which works great. It is so so so much better then the hydra. If anyone has a use for a hydra, drop me a note.. I have two.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EnginesFor818.jpg

Engine building continues... here are the two engines I am using as well as the transmission.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TurbosFor818.jpg

I pulled a few turbo parts out of the parts cabinet to see what might work for break in. I think the GT35R with the .82 housing is what I will use.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TimingBelt2.jpg

I got all of the bucket lashes measured, ordered new buckets, installed and confirmed all is good. .008" on the intake, and .010" on the exhaust.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TimingBelt1.jpg

I installed and torqued the pulleys and gears for the timing belt next..

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TimingBelt3.jpg

Then started the belt install.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TimingBelt4.jpg
http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TimingBelt5.jpg

[sponaugle]

Everything lined up nice as it should.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TimingBelt6.jpg

Final look and everything is good.

Next up was the water pipe. In the stock setup the water pipe has an extension coming out of the back of the engine that feeds the heater. The return from the heater goes into another black pipe that feeds across the engine and down to the larger of the two fittings on the water pump. Since I will not have heat in the car, I decided to make a shorter circuit out of this.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WaterPipe1.jpg

The pipe installed on the engine as stock.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WaterPipe2.jpg

I removed the pipe from the engine and pulled the extension out.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WaterPipe3.jpg

The dimensions of the hole are almost perfect for a 3/8 NPT Tap, which I used to add some threads.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WaterPipe4.jpg

Nice clean threads..

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WaterPipe5.jpg

Fitting Installed.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WaterPipe6.jpg

I attached two hoses directly to the water pump (one -8 and one -10)

[sponaugle]

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WaterPipe7.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/WaterPipe8.jpg

The hoses run up the front inner side of the engine. The larger hose goes to the new fitting on the water pipe, and the smaller hose goes to the overflow container.

I also did a test fit of the turbo up pipe..... I have no idea how this will fit in the actual chassis... I'll drop the engine in place next to find out.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TurboPipe1.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TurboPipe2.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TurboPipe3.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TurboPipe4.jpg

[sponaugle]

I also installed a 50psi map sensor:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/MapSensor.jpg

And cleaned up the fittings around the throttle body:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/ThrottleArea.jpg

Up next is to test fit the engine in the chassis.

[sponaugle]

Oh I also installed some Perrin Engine and Transmission mounts:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/PerrinMounts1.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/PerrinMounts2.jpg

I also got a Fuel Pressure regulator from Jeff. The really nice thing about this regulator is that the housing has four inputs not two. That means you don’t have to use -AN Y fittings to combine the in and out of each fuel rail. That saves both time, money, and a lot of hassle.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/PerrinFPReg1.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/PerrinFPReg2.jpg

[Samiam1017]

is that upipe,turbo setup gonna clear the crossbar or are you gonna modify the crossbar?

[Frank818]

Too bad about the turbos on the table, I thought you were thinking of using them all on the 818. Like I said, too bad. lolll

Awesome pictures.

[sponaugle]

is that upipe,turbo setup gonna clear the crossbar or are you gonna modify the crossbar?
I'm not sure, but I suspect I'll need to modify the uppipe and down pipe.

[sponaugle]

Update: I dropped the engine into the chassis.


http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EngineInstall1.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EngineInstall2.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EngineInstall3.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EngineInstall4.jpg

If you have both exhaust headers and the intake manifold installed, it is a close fit and requires a few snug bumps to get it to line up just right.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EngineInstall5.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EngineInstall6.jpg

Sure enough the turbo exhaust housing intersects with the upper cross member. [well, in this picture where the cross member would be if installed ] I think I am going to shorten the uppipe just a bit and see if I can get the turbo to tuck under the cross bar. I'll mount up the transmission first so I have an idea how much room I have.

Jeff

[metalmaker12]

Very nice dude, your garage is epic!!

[Frank818]

This car has got tires. Check out the fat a s s, baby, yeah. :)

[sponaugle]

EDIT: Pictures back online.

[sponaugle]

This car has got tires. Check out the fat a s s, baby, yeah. :)

HaHa.. 295s look nice!

I took some measurements, and I need to drop the turbo down about 1 inch. I am going to remove the uppipe and cut an inch out of it. The downpipe will still fit (since the geometry of the wastegate and turbine housing stays the same). I'll need to cut and modify the lower part of the downpipe anyways, so no extra work there.

Jeff

[Sgt.Gator]

Jeff I love your build. However I think you should consider 2 x EZ30R. Check out this 12 cylinder Subaru - Porsche 917: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HyKLC-p1A

I predict Epic Fail, but I hope he succeeds!

[Aero STI]

Awesome work, as always! I hope you can get some video of you working your magic on the dyno. What do you expect from the old school 35R? 450 RWHP on 93?

[STiPWRD]

The Bugeye is now running a Vipec with the EZ30R, which works great. It is so so so much better then the hydra. If anyone has a use for a hydra, drop me a note.. I have two.

I got all of the bucket lashes measured, ordered new buckets, installed and confirmed all is good. .008" on the intake, and .010" on the exhaust.

I'm loving this build. 2 questions -

What are the issues with the hydra? I've usually heard good things.

I assume you're using shimless buckets - are the .008" and .010" max gaps? I'm planning to also use shimless buckets with Crower 264 cams on 2.0 heads, so I guess I should also use the same clearances? I've heard the motor has to be "at temperature" to take these measurements, can they be done at room temp?

[sponaugle]

Jeff I love your build. However I think you should consider 2 x EZ30R. Check out this 12 cylinder Subaru - Porsche 917: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HyKLC-p1A

I predict Epic Fail, but I hope he succeeds!

epic indeed! I have thought about what it would take to do awd, but it would be challenging given the layout.


Awesome work, as always! I hope you can get some video of you working your magic on the dyno. What do you expect from the old school 35R? 450 RWHP on 93?

I'll be running entirely on E85, so I can probably do at least 450rwhp. I keep a few hundred gallons of E85 in my shop, and I run both of my Subarus and the GTR on E85. This engine is really just for break in and emissions testing, but it will also be good to help sort out issues at higher power. I think the traction control will be critical to prevent a close matter-anti matter interaction with a tree.



I'm loving this build. 2 questions -
What are the issues with the hydra? I've usually heard good things.
I assume you're using shimless buckets - are the .008" and .010" max gaps? I'm planning to also use shimless buckets with Crower 264 cams on 2.0 heads, so I guess I should also use the same clearances? I've heard the motor has to be "at temperature" to take these measurements, can they be done at room temp?

As for the buckets, yes they are the shimless ones used on all of he Subaru motors post 04sti. Those clearances are indeed at room temperature, and are as specified by cosworth. They will change a bit if you were to measure with the engine at a cold non heated garage temp, so I made sure to get everything to 70 degrees F.

As for max gap, the exact gaps at room temp were within .0005 of the targets... But it is not that critical. If you had .009 on an intake I would not be too concerned.

It is not so much that the hydra sucks as it is other ECMs are so much better. The Vipec and the AEM for instance have much better software, more inputs and outputs, more configurability, betters support, and a larger product range.

5 years ago things were not as clear, but today I don't see why someone would pick the hydra. There are just better choices out there... And ones that are less locked down in terms of features..

Jeff

[Plebeian]

Jeff I love your build. However I think you should consider 2 x EZ30R. Check out this 12 cylinder Subaru - Porsche 917: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HyKLC-p1A

I predict Epic Fail, but I hope he succeeds!

According to the posts on his youtube videos he didn't finish it and put it up for sale over a year ago.

[Scargo]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sgt.Gator http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?p=181049#post181049)
Jeff I love your build. However I think you should consider 2 x EZ30R. Check out this 12 cylinder Subaru - Porsche 917: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HyKLC-p1A

I predict Epic Fail, but I hope he succeeds!

I think what struck me about that video were the poor quality of the welds. Was there a guy on this forum that taught him to weld? JK.
I wonder how the engines are coupled?

[Aero STI]

I'll be running entirely on E85, so I can probably do at least 450rwhp. I keep a few hundred gallons of E85 in my shop, and I run both of my Subarus and the GTR on E85. This engine is really just for break in and emissions testing, but it will also be good to help sort out issues at higher power. I think the traction control will be critical to prevent a close matter-anti matter interaction with a tree.

Jeff

Glad to hear you're going straight to E85 even with this "temporary" motor. Every car I've switched to E85 on I never switched back, but it's pretty prevalent in this area of the country so no real concern about being too far away from an ethanol pump.

In addition to the Perrin FPR and rails, what's your fuel system going to be comprised of for the EJ257? I thought I saw some blue injectors in one picture and then maybe some black ID1000's in another. Did you get the aeromotive 340 pump with the Boyd tank?

I'm hoping the aeromotive in tank, some ID1000's, and 55 PSI base fuel pressure will be enough to support 500+ whp on E85 with my EFR7163.

[Sgt.Gator]

According to the posts on his youtube videos he didn't finish it and put it up for sale over a year ago.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sgt.Gator http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?p=181049#post181049)
Jeff I love your build. However I think you should consider 2 x EZ30R. Check out this 12 cylinder Subaru - Porsche 917: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HyKLC-p1A

I predict Epic Fail, but I hope he succeeds!

I think what struck me about that video were the poor quality of the welds. Was there a guy on this forum that taught him to weld? JK.
I wonder how the engines are coupled?

He's still at it. I came across him on the Legacy GT forum asking for help with his ECU tuning. And just a few days ago he was asking about the SVX 3.3 motor. He's can't find anyone to help him finish his miles of wiring and get his HalTech ecu to work, so he's asking about using ans OEM ECU from a Tribeca...an incredible amount of work and $$$$ wasted because of lack of planning and knowledge. And yes, those welds look bad, and I'm sure Porsche used better alloy frame tubes than whatever he is using. No way I would drive it at more than 25mph!
Makes all of us look positively professional and Sponaugle look like a mechanical-electrical god!

[sponaugle]

Glad to hear you're going straight to E85 even with this "temporary" motor. Every car I've switched to E85 on I never switched back, but it's pretty prevalent in this area of the country so no real concern about being too far away from an ethanol pump.

In addition to the Perrin FPR and rails, what's your fuel system going to be comprised of for the EJ257? I thought I saw some blue injectors in one picture and then maybe some black ID1000's in another. Did you get the aeromotive 340 pump with the Boyd tank?

I'm hoping the aeromotive in tank, some ID1000's, and 55 PSI base fuel pressure will be enough to support 500+ whp on E85 with my EFR7163.

I have the in tank Aeromotive pump, 4 ID1000s, and I'll run a little more base pressure. Since I am going to ID2000s in my GT-R I'll have a set of ID1300s to swap to if needed. I'm not sure I can get to 500whp on the ID1000s on E85 however. I had ID1000s before in my 08 STI, and am now running ID2000s with twin W460 pumps. I have a set of 6 ID1300s for the EZ30R, which will be enough to get to 600whp there.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

He's still at it. I came across him on the Legacy GT forum asking for help with his ECU tuning. And just a few days ago he was asking about the SVX 3.3 motor. He's can't find anyone to help him finish his miles of wiring and get his HalTech ecu to work, so he's asking about using ans OEM ECU from a Tribeca...an incredible amount of work and $$$$ wasted because of lack of planning and knowledge. And yes, those welds look bad, and I'm sure Porsche used better alloy frame tubes than whatever he is using. No way I would drive it at more than 25mph!
Makes all of us look positively professional and Sponaugle look like a mechanical-electrical god!

It is an interesting concept to have two engines attached together like that. I wonder if he was planning on having a single engine controller? It could work, as long as the attachment between the engines is setup such that each engine is timed exactly the same. If that were the case, you could trigger both fuel and spark for each engine off the same computer. The computer would not really know that there were two engines running off the same setup. Knock control would be an experiment as you would need to provide some kind of synthetic combination to the single ECU. Throttle control would really be best if it was mechanical, as having dual throttles would take a bit of work.

Crazy stuff.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

I wonder how the engines are coupled?

I would assume there is a direct physical connection between the flywheel side of the first engine and the crank pulley side of the second engine. It would be pretty easy to machine a custom adapter that could connect the two.. however you would need to make some kind of change to the crankshaft so you could couple power. The stock crank pully woodruff pin would not handle that kind of torque.

It would seem like the best idea would be to spline the nose end of the crank. You could then use a small 'axle like' extension to connect the two together. You could then have a single clutch and flywheel on the rear engine with standard controls. As long as the two engines are timed exactly the same, you would only need one crank sensor. You could control the AVCS on each engine as most of the better ECMs can do 4 VVT cams.

[Scargo]

Today's sophisticated technology could make it happen (for the timing)... but I remember many attempts in the drag racing scene to couple two and four V-8's together. I don't think any of those were very successful. You must have a flexible coupling. There is too much torque, twist and flex involved. I'm guessing that weight is excessive, too. A four-six rotor Wankel would be better.

[sponaugle]

Not really an update.. but a friend of mine moved to NZ and asked me if I wanted to buy his welding gear, which of course I said yes to. I have done some mig welding and a very small amount of tig welding using someone elses equipment so I jumped at the chance to get a tig setup. I knew the welder was a Dynasty 200 DX but that was about it. I assume this is at least an adequate starter TIG setup... those more familiar can comment? Here is what I got:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder1.jpg
I have no idea what all of these do!

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder2.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder3.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder4.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder5.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder6.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder7.jpg

It appears the head is water cooled. Is that pretty common?

[sponaugle]

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder8.jpg
Some filler..

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder9.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder10.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder11.jpg

One large tank of Argon, Two tanks of Oxygen, and One of Acetylene.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder12.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder13.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/Welder14.jpg

Lots of regulators, and I assume ends for and Acetylene torch.

Jeff

[K3LAG]

The Miller Dynasty line is actually pretty nice. It looks like you got quite a nice collection of stuff. Depending on how much you paid, I'm jealous.

Larry

[Wayne Presley]

Very nice welder, only thing it doesn't have is AC frequency. You have about $250 worth of tungsten, $400 worth of bottles and the water cooled torch is really nice to have. At least $1500 worth of stuff.

[sponaugle]

Cool. I paid $2000 for everything including the Miller Tig welder which retails for $3100, plus all of the stuff including tanks, Oxy torch, cooling setup, rods, etc, plus a bunch of tools, grinders, etc. I ordered up some different steel stocks from online metals to play with. Some different size cold-rolled bar, and some stainless bar. Pratice pratice pratice is the name of the game this christmas!

[Scargo]

It does have AC. This Miller is what I have. I adapted my own water cooling to what is normally an air-cooled rig. I really like mine so far and bought it because I thought it was capable, especially at 240v input, to do anything I needed to do to the 818.
Do you have a regulator that will let you do back-purging if you weld SS tubing? Looks like you are in pretty good shape except for filler for SS.
Lucky guy. I need gas occasionally. Sometimes MAP gas doesn't cut it.

[longislandwrx]

damn look at the size of those cups!

nice pick up.

[metalmaker12]

But can he weld????lol I would hope

Good deal, the mig is pretty powrful for most of what you will use it for.

The tig is a nice compact setup, I had one very similar to that and loved it. Sadly someone loved it more.

If you have any questions I have been welding everyday for 17 years

[darthchicken]

Burn the garage down yet Jeff? Just subscribing, get'r done so we can go to the track! :cool:

[sponaugle]

Burn the garage down yet Jeff? Just subscribing, get'r done so we can go to the track! :cool:

A small update:

It has been a while and I don't have a lot of new progress to show... The last three months have been pretty packed with Holidays, lots of work travel, and the fun of having a very talkative 2 year old.... And I have spent a lot of time working on the GT-R, the 02 WRX, and the 08 STI. On the WRX I completed the rewire of the entire ECU and engine with the Vipec (all new wire with the Milspec stuff above, new DT connectors, etc) and spent some time tweaking the map. I'll use a Vipec in the 818 for the H6 as well, so good to get a working basemap. The Vipec is very very easy to wire and use... I had no problem with the variable valve timing, valve lift control, etc. Everything fired up the first time. I have started work on taking down the EZ30R from the Perrin car, as I want to replace the bearings and check everything else out. I also scored a third EZ30R engine as a spare, along with some spare heads, some aftermarket cams, and new cranks.

I mentioned above that I was going to shorten the uppipe so the 35R break in turbo I have will fit under the crossmember. After looking a bit more and taking some measurements, that is harder then it looks. On the EZ30R there is less room there, and the axles still have to make it to the transmission.

As such I am considering changing the 'bolt on' upper cross member.

Take a look at this pic:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/818TurboLocation.jpg

The cross member is about level but pulled back on the passenger side as it would interfere with the turbine housing. I need to cut and modify it to fit the turbo. What do you guys think about modifying it like this:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/818TurboLocation2.jpg

The light blue I would cut away, the Red is a new vertical bar I would add, and the green would be a sheet gusset. Given it is no longer a straight piece, it would be significantly less rigid.

I assume I can't add bracing to the top of the crossmember as the body would not fit.

Thoughts?

Jeff

[Hindsight]

The body sits on top of the ledges on the outside of the cross brace, so you have a lot of room there. You could run something higher straight across but have to watch it because generally that is where your intercooler is going to go.

[sponaugle]

The body sits on top of the ledges on the outside of the cross brace, so you have a lot of room there. You could run something higher straight across but have to watch it because generally that is where your intercooler is going to go.

Ah yea.. Intercooler. I am using the VCP Air to water, so I should fab up those brackets first and see how it fits. Another option I could consider is adding a beam behind this one a few inches.. as the turbine housing isn't that wide. Thanks!

[Scargo]

Anything you could do with the remaining piece to extend it upwards and inwards would recoup some of the stiffness of the original structure. I'm not sure how critical that area is. Seems it's mostly under compression. Going horizontally from side-to-side with a piece might be the best thing if you have room.

[sponaugle]

Anything you could do with the remaining piece to extend it upwards and inwards would recoup some of the stiffness of the original structure. I'm not sure how critical that area is. Seems it's mostly under compression. Going horizontally from side-to-side with a piece might be the best thing if you have room.

Yea, that makes sense. I took an angle grinder at the cross member today..

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/818TurboLocation3.jpg

I used the piece I cut out to make to diagonal supports, which are taped in place right now. I'll tig weld those in place tomorrow. Since this is right above the turbine hosing I need to also plug the ends (to keep water out, etc) with metal not plastic.

I think this is going to work. As a bonus I can swap out for several other different turbos given the room around the turbine housing. Next up is to cut the downpipe and get that sorted enough so I can start up the engine.

Thanks for the help and suggestions!

Jeff

[longislandwrx]

39803


could you roll out some 1" round bar or tube? add some sheet metal and you have a heat shield.

[Tamra]

It sounds like you are wanting to do something like we did for our Borg Warner turbo. Our Frozenboost AWIC is ~4" thick and fit between the upper bar we welded on. We also did the diagonal bar you mentioned.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DSC_0143_zpshtnfyvgb.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/DSC_0143_zpshtnfyvgb.jpg.html)

[tebriel]

Is there any room to modify the up-pipe and drop the turbo down lower? In my mind I can see the turbine outlet pointed straight back at the rear of the car, but that may not leave any room for an inlet onto the compressor?

[Wayne Presley]

I mounted my turbo on my 6 cylinder the same as Jeff and had to cut up the bar as well

[sponaugle]

I have been planning on putting an EZ30R motor in the 818, and since I purchased Jeff Perrin's -06 STI H6 Sema car as my donor car, I was going to use that engine. I have another EZ30R running in my 02 WRX, and a third on the shelf as a spare. I had an opportunity last week to buy the "misc H6 Engine/parts' from Cobb that were part of their original engine program. They were planning on using an EZ30R engine in one of their time attack cars. A friend from Cobb asked if I was interested, and of course I said yes!

Next thing you know three large pallets show up. It is like an EZ30R Christmas!

First up, A fully built long block with rods, pistons, cams, ported heads, valves and valvetrain, assembled

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-1.jpg

Front Covers for two more engines, plus a spare block case.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-2.jpg

A bunch of rods for the EZ30R

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-3.jpg

Two more spare complete EZ30Rs.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-4.jpg

Another pair of ported heads with Custom kelford cams, valve train, etc

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-5.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-6.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-7.jpg

[Wayne Presley]

WOW, what a find!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sponaugle]

Specs on the cams:
http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-8.jpg

Unpacking all of the extra goodies!
http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-9.jpg

Another built engine
http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-10.jpg

A set of CP pistons, JE pistons, and Mahle pistons, plus 2 complete sets of Crower Rods, plus 5 extra, and extra set of Cams, and 2 cranks.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-11.jpg

Sweet! Now I have lots of spares!! The Perrin engine has a sleeved bottom end, but stock heads.. so not I have some cool ported heads and cams to put on that bottom end. Oh I also got one older EZ30D.

[sponaugle]

The rods are interesting.. They are the same thickness as the regular Crower/Pauter EZ30R rods, but have been machine slightly differently such that you can use regular EJ257 rod bearings (which just barely fit in the crank journals).

I have not used these before, so I am curious to see how well it works.

Jeff

[longislandwrx]

wow. you are going to need more engine stands :D

[Mechie3]

I think you need more engines, just to be safe.

[JAubin]

Damn that's quite the score. I think the better move would be more 818(s) to put the motors in. Might as well get an R and a C...

[sponaugle]

wow. you are going to need more engine stands :D

I think you need more engines, just to be safe.

Damn that's quite the score. I think the better move would be more 818(s) to put the motors in. Might as well get an R and a C...


Seee. this is why I love you guys. Such a supporting and understanding environment. When I was unpacking of the crates last night I said the exact same thing. I need more engine stands! Actually I do need to get another more beefy engine stand as I am about to start a rebuild on my GT-R VR38DETT engine, and those things are topheavy.

I did talk to Kelford about the cams. The were indeed a special run, and are custom steel billet cams ($). The only downside is that Kelford said I should not run them without a DLC coating on the buckets. Have you guys heard of that before?

A bit of google search says that is referring to "Diamond Like Coating"... I found lots of reference but no real links of someone who actually does the coating in small scale. Thoughts?

Jeff

[Mechie3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond-like_carbon

That search term might help you find better results.

[Evan78]

I wonder if WPC is a viable substitute for what Kelford is recommending. I think individual batches are fairly inexpensive.

http://www.wpctreatment.com/documents/Why_WPC.pdf

[longislandwrx]

Actually I do need to get another more beefy engine stand as I am about to start a rebuild on my GT-R VR38DETT engine, and those things are topheavy.



My OTC dream $tand, although their cheaper ones are just as nice.

40609

http://www.factoryconnection.com DLC coats motorcycle parts... looks like they do it in house, or at least could point you in the right direction.

I saw your post on NAS and one guys used it on his motorsports parts, so it may be a good lead.

[sponaugle]

My OTC dream $tand, although their cheaper ones are just as nice.
40609
http://www.factoryconnection.com DLC coats motorcycle parts... looks like they do it in house, or at least could point you in the right direction.
I saw your post on NAS and one guys used it on his motorsports parts, so it may be a good lead.

Indeed it was. I contacted the guy at Morgan, and they can do DLC coatings. Cost is $1500 for a batch, pretty much regardless of size. I want to do 48 buckets ( 12 buckets in each head, and two sets of heads ). Of course I have to make sure the clearance is right as the buckets are all different sizes. I may do a few extra buckets of the thicker variety as it is always possible to machine down the valve stem just a bit.

The EZ30R buckets are slightly smaller in diameter then the EJ ones, and the stock intake ones are a very complicated piece owing to the variable lift. In my case I am using the exhaust cam buckets on both sides.

The exhaust side looks just like an EJ. The buckets are of the same kind of construction, with the size printed on the bottom.. Ranging from 4.32 to 5.59.
http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-12.jpg

The intake valves are much longer and stick up way past the retainers. This allows the dual lift bucket to follow one of two different cam paths. Since the intake buckets are so complicated they only come in one thickness, and you use the very small bucket you see here on the top of the valve to change the spacing.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-13.jpg

With the small bucket off the valve top is similar to the exhaust side, just a lot taller. You can also see the oil supply hole in the side of the bucket hole, as that is what gets oil pressure when the lift is turned on.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30R-Cobb-14.jpg

With these cams I am getting rid of the multi-lift as the billet steel cams don's support it. That also reduced the weight of the valve train because the lift buckets are pretty heavy.

Jeff

[Aero STI]

Jeff, we do very exotic coatings at my work. DLC isn't really all that exotic, but we can do that. Usually we lay down a few hundred angstroms for extreme scratch resistance, so 2-4 microns like what is suggested for the forks seems excessive. I'm personally interested in this, so I'll ask a few of the coating scientists if depositing DLC on buckets with our equipment is plausible. Height is usually the biggest limiting factor in our coaters.

[Scargo]

It seems that in extreme applications that the coatings are very helpful for piston wrist pins, cams and buckets.
I just spent about $300 for new buckets because the cams had worn them so excessively that they were unusable for my new build.

[sponaugle]

Jeff, we do very exotic coatings at my work. DLC isn't really all that exotic, but we can do that. Usually we lay down a few hundred angstroms for extreme scratch resistance, so 2-4 microns like what is suggested for the forks seems excessive. I'm personally interested in this, so I'll ask a few of the coating scientists if depositing DLC on buckets with our equipment is plausible. Height is usually the biggest limiting factor in our coaters.

Thanks for looking. I'm not sure how much is typically done in a case like this. The purpose is to add hardness and prevent the steel billet cam from wearing the buckets quickly. Size wise, the buckets are pretty small, about an 1.5 inches tall or so. Let me know what you find out. I have 48 buckets total to 'coat'.


It seems that in extreme applications that the coatings are very helpful for piston wrist pins, cams and buckets.
I just spent about $300 for new buckets because the cams had worn them so excessively that they were unusable for my new build.

Yea, there are some wrist pins you can get that are DLC coated. I think the super heavy duty ones for the GT-R (for >1500whp builds) are DLC coated (As well as heavy).

There are some long threads on Nasioc about cams and bucket wear. It seems that a surprising number of people have had either cam lobes wear down, or buckets damaged. I have personally never seen that, but then again I usually break something before I get to that kind of milage. :)

Jeff

[Frank818]

Spare parts? I thought you were fitting all the parts/engines in the 818? No spare. :)

[Aero STI]

Thanks for looking. I'm not sure how much is typically done in a case like this. The purpose is to add hardness and prevent the steel billet cam from wearing the buckets quickly. Size wise, the buckets are pretty small, about an 1.5 inches tall or so. Let me know what you find out. I have 48 buckets total to 'coat'.


I spoke to one of the guys this morning, he said the thickest coatings we do are typically in the 10's of nanometers. You're hitting the parts with an ION (plasma) beam and then injecting acetylene into the beam, or filling the chamber with acetylene and injecting argon into the beam. He said putting micron thick coatings is doable as long as the process parameters are dialed in. It turns out the department that I manage is a heavy user of this for machined parts, so this guy thought it was cool I was interested in knowing more about the process. The ION beam isn't simply depositing sp^2 or sp^3 and building up the surface, it is also removing some material in the process. So, even at 2-4 microns thick it's not purely additive. I put in a call to the guy that spent a few years developing DLC coatings. I'm waiting to hear back from him. He's a good friend and a gearhead. No promises, but if anyone is willing to do this at my company, he would be the guy.

[Aero STI]

Jeff, I spoke to the "expert" on DLC at my company. He gave me way more information about the different methods of coating DLC. Our technique would be an experiment vs. tried and true. A coating would be deposited, at best it would do what you need, at worst it would wear off quickly and the part would behave as it would without a coating. The biggest concern is the throat on the entrance chamber to that coater because it is only 1" tall. It peaked his interest and we're going to try it out on some buckets for my CRF450R supermoto, but the outfits selling this as a service would be a much better route for you to take. Sorry if that's a let down.

[sponaugle]

Spare parts? I thought you were fitting all the parts/engines in the 818? No spare. :)

That's right..I forgot to mention I'll be running an EZ30R at each corner of the car... one per wheel. :)



Jeff, I spoke to the "expert" on DLC at my company. He gave me way more information about the different methods of coating DLC. Our technique would be an experiment vs. tried and true. A coating would be deposited, at best it would do what you need, at worst it would wear off quickly and the part would behave as it would without a coating. The biggest concern is the throat on the entrance chamber to that coater because it is only 1" tall. It peaked his interest and we're going to try it out on some buckets for my CRF450R supermoto, but the outfits selling this as a service would be a much better route for you to take. Sorry if that's a let down.

No worries, and thank you for looking into it. I have a quote from a place in CA that can do it, and I'm waiting to hear back from a place on the east coast. I'll post up what I find out. I am curious how long the buckets will last without a coating. I'll ask Kelford.

Jeff

[Pearldrummer7]

GT-R VR38DETT engine


Now that would be a cool donor engine. I don't know how you could make it cooperate transmission/electronic wise, but .... think of the power!

[sponaugle]

Oh one other interesting this:

Here are the various Subaru cam specs:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EZ30RCamSpecs.png

All of the factory numbers are from the factory datasheets, which means they are more like 'advertised' numbers, not real numbers. Subaru does not specify the valve lift they use for the duration measurements, but based on past experience it is either .5mm, or even just 'contact'. For example the 2004 STI cams are shown as having 240 degrees of duration, but most aftermarket shops measure it at 204-206 degrees at .050" lift.

I put the Kelford numbers at the bottom, both the real, and the 'advertised' numbers. I'm not sure if the advertised numbers really match up to the Subaru specs, but they are close.

Here is what I am curious about: On the intake side these kelford cams have the same lift as stock. They are slightly longer in duration, but most interestingly the have a different centerline. The stock cam centerline is 488/128 degrees (488 measured from TDC of combustion, 128 degrees from TDC of exhaust/intake stroke). The Kelford cam has a 470/110 degree centerline. That means the Kelford cam opens earlier (more advanced) then the stock cams. The stock cam AVCS system can change by as much as 40 degrees, so this means the Kelford cams are similar to the stock cams running 18 degrees of AVCS advance.

The exhaust Kelford cam has more lift then stock, and more duration, and a slightly later centerline, again increasing overlap.

Of course all of this is based around using the 'advertised' numbers. If you look at the actual raw numbers from Kelford (the spec sheet numbers), the overlap with no AVCS is only 2 degrees. It is only when you try to 'convert' the numbers to 'advertised' that things look different. Also the Kelford spec is measured at 1mm of valve lift, which is even less then the standard 0.050".

It is possible that the factory numbers are really measured at something like 0.5mm of lift, which means that even with 5-10 degrees of active AVCS you still really have very little overlap.

What I need is a way to just get a picture of the cam profile of each!

Jeff

[sponaugle]

Now that would be a cool donor engine. I don't know how you could make it cooperate transmission/electronic wise, but .... think of the power!

yea.. that would be cool.... The only problem is the height. It is a very tall engine.. but hey anything is possible!

[sponaugle]

I am working on inventorying my score. One of the engines I got was an EZ30D (the first gen EZ30 motor). It is similar to the 2nd gen, but has a single combined exhaust port. I am not going to use it... so.. if anyone here on FF818 wants the motor, and are willing to come to my house to get it, it is yours for free.

Only restriction is you have to bring a couple of friends with you help move it. I'm in the west hills in Portland on Skyline.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

I got some time over the weekend to get back into the 818, which felt good!

I connected the battery, checked for shorts, and turned the ignition on for the first time. No Smoke!

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/GaugeCluster.jpg

With the 04 STI ECU plugged in, I married the AP

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/APConnect.jpg

Jeff Perrin stopped by and helped me weld up the downpipe. Once I get the body on I'll add the muffler section.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/DownpipeFinished.jpg

I worked a bit on the turbo compressor output. I need to get a few 45 degree silicon bends, but it will be a very short connection to the intercooler.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TurboOutput.jpg

I also got the radiator mounted up. Turns out I could use the Perrin rad mounts combined with a few small spacers:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/PerrinRadMount.jpg

I also installed the rear axles, which are 06 STI front axles with the front STI inner CVs and the rear outer STI CVs. These axles are about 5/8” longer than the factory five ones, but I had no problem extending the hubs out a bit with the links. I did order a 7” upper lateral link, as that one could use some more range.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/AxelInstalled.jpg

[sponaugle]

I got one of those vacuum systems for filling the coolant. I connected it to the garage/shop air and pulled a vacuum in the system to check for leaks. Once it was above 25" I removed the air and let it sit. You can quickly see if you have any leaks. Fortunately my system was tight and had no problem holding the vacuum.

With that done, I connected the line to a 5 gallon bucket of coolant and it sucked it all in save about 1.4 gallons. Super slick and easy, and it realy helps to eliminate air bubbles. Took about 3 mins to do the entire system.

This is a tool any car guy/gal should have. It makes refilling the system so easy and painless, even with a complicated layout like the 818.

Video of the vacuum test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpzuj5-xbmY

With that done, I connected the starter up so I could make sure the oil system was working.

Here is a video of the engine turning over. I removed the spark plugs so there is no compression, which makes it an easy job for the starter. The pressure measurement is at the back of the block. 88psi of oil pressure is pretty good, of course the oil and engine are cold.

Here s a video of the starter cranking the engine over:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoTBygHaC1g

Jeff

[Kurk818]

Glad to see you making more progress. We all want to see your build in action. Keep it up.

[sponaugle]

Glad to see you making more progress. We all want to see your build in action. Keep it up.

Thanks Kurk! I am looking forward to taking it for a drive! I need to get a few parts to finish the intake tract and then I can fire it up. I need to get this thing done, because I have an R32 Skyline from Japan inbound in about a month... and I know that will be a distraction!

Jeff

[Harley818]

Your build is looking good.
That vacuum system looks slick......I'm not 100% that I got out all the air bubbles. Where did you get it?

[sponaugle]

Your build is looking good.
That vacuum system looks slick......I'm not 100% that I got out all the air bubbles. Where did you get it?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002SRH5G/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

$125 on amazon. Totally worth it.

Jeff

[Kurk818]

Thanks Kurk! I am looking forward to taking it for a drive! I need to get a few parts to finish the intake tract and then I can fire it up. I need to get this thing done, because I have an R32 Skyline from Japan inbound in about a month... and I know that will be a distraction!

Jeff

Wow, thats awesome. Lots of men wish they could do what you do. Keep it up. And of course, we love pics :)

[STiPWRD]

I need to get this thing done, because I have an R32 Skyline from Japan inbound in about a month... and I know that will be a distraction!

Jeff
I wish I had your problems ;)

[sponaugle]

I got a quote back from BryCoat in regards to the bucket coatings that was very reasonable. The tech there suggested I consider Titanium Carbonnitride.

http://www.brycoat.com/coating-services/pvd-coatings/ticn.html

From Brycoat it would bt $12 a bucket. From IHC I can get a real DLC coating, but it would be $60 per bucket.

Is anyone familiar with TiCN?

Also, it is required to take the parts to 750F for this process. Anyone see a problem with that? The buckets are steel of course, but would they soften because of that temperature?

Andrew: Could you by change ask you material experts?


Jeff

[sponaugle]

I wish I had your problems ;)

I prefer to think of them as space-time compression and optimization challenges. My wife however thinks of them more as "Jeff is tinkering again". :)

Jeff

[Aero STI]

I got a quote back from BryCoat in regards to the bucket coatings that was very reasonable. The tech there suggested I consider Titanium Carbonnitride.

http://www.brycoat.com/coating-services/pvd-coatings/ticn.html

From Brycoat it would bt $12 a bucket. From IHC I can get a real DLC coating, but it would be $60 per bucket.

Is anyone familiar with TiCN?

Also, it is required to take the parts to 750F for this process. Anyone see a problem with that? The buckets are steel of course, but would they soften because of that temperature?

Andrew: Could you by change ask you material experts?


Jeff

I checked with my SME...

"TiCN is very hard but not as low friction as DLC. DLC is great for reducing friction/stiction. It is readily oxidized so no combustion areas. Look at what high RPM race engines are using"

He offered this article: http://www.stle.org/assets/document/Valvetrain_Friction_Reduction_through_Thin_Film_Co atings_and_Polishing.pdf

Also, "Vacuum ion implantation of carbon is common. Sort of a super carbonizing surface hardener"

So are you ultimately trying to reduce wear from friction, or add hardness to the top of the bucket? I would put a lot of weight in the recommendations given by brycoat. I imagine they know their stuff.

[longislandwrx]

Jeff Perrin stopped by and helped me weld up the downpipe.


I have an R32 Skyline from Japan inbound in about a month... and I know that will be a distraction!


41525

[sponaugle]

41525

Hahaha. That is awesome. I even work in a cube!

[sponaugle]

Well, tonight was the night to see what I did wrong. Oil in the motor, gas in the gas tank, coolant in the coolant system, and a downpipe with no muffler or cat.

I checked some connections, made sure the engine would spin over and not catch on any cables etc... then key on:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS9xU6TC1L8

It ran! It didn't catch fire! It didn't shoot rod bearings out the oil pan. It was also loud. I forgot how loud these engine are with no mufflers or cats. There was a bit of smoke from oil that I spilled on the header, but that will go away once I get it hot.

Oil and fuel pressure looked good. I need to clean up a few small thing before I roll it out of the shop and let it warm up, but no fluids on the floor either.

Feels good to have the engine running, especially since I built the engine.

Jeff

[TouchStone]

Congrats! Its always exciting to see another one of these start up. And I cant wait to start mine.

[Kurk818]

Right on!! Congrats. Huge step and an awesome motivator! Keep this pace going and you'll be done in no time.

[Frank818]

Nice!

[longislandwrx]

41528

awesome job man.

[C.Plavan]

Congrats!

[STiPWRD]

Congrats! Awesome job

[sponaugle]

Thanks guys! Indeed I am driven to get this thing registered and plated so I can drop the EZ30R in. Of course before I do that I'll have to turn up the boost on this 35R and see how 500whp feels. :) Reminder to self: Order that Racelogic TC box today.

I am mostly just excited that nothing caught on fire.

Jeff

[jayguy]

Congratulations! Gotta be a great feeling to hear it run, next will be the go-kart. That should be a blast!

jay

[AZPete]

Congrats! It's a great feeling for all of us but especially for guys like you who have built their own engine.

[sponaugle]

I pulled the car out of the shop today (under it's own power).. Fuel trims are off a bit still, so I need to tweak the scalar and latencies. I am running an SD map, so no MAF sensor.

It is surprising how long it takes to warm up. It probably took 15-20 mins before the fans kicked on. Watching the coolant temps you could see when the thermostat opens, as there is so much thermal mass in all of the coolant and piping, and front radiator. The AWIC is still not hooked up, but I'll get to that tomorrow.

The vacuum system for filling the radiator appears to have worked perfectly, as the entire system worked without any burping or adding fluid. Such an easy way to do it.

I do have a few small leaks I need to track down, and I need to get a muffler on it. I stopped by Perrin's shop today and he had a 3 inch vband and a muffler section for me, so I have my welding work cut out for me this weekend.

Jeff

[Hindsight]

Congrats on the first start! Despite a hiatus, you certainly got that thing running quickly.

[sponaugle]

I did my first 'karting' yesterday. I drove it around the driveway, which was very cool. I have been getting some smoke from the headers, which I tracked down to an oil leak somewhere that is dripping from the timing belt covers (passenger side). I was able to remove the cover and clean up all of the oil, so I can run it again and find the source. Could be something with the AVCS solenoid, or perhaps a cam seal. It does not really leak much at idle, just when the oil pressure is higher. Hopefully it is something I can fix without pulling the engine, as that is time consuming.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

I think I found the source of the oil leak. When I had the head apart I removed the brass covers on the AVCS solenoids to clean the insides. It looks like I didn't tighten then back up, so oil was weeping out of one of them. I remove and cleaned everything and it looks like no more significant oil drips.

The car out of the garage for the first karting drive.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/818Karting.jpg

My 2 year old daughter is very very excited to see this run. She asks me all the time about my 'kit car'.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/AudreyKarting.jpg

I am putting an oil cooler in, and this is my mock up location. I think this will work well with the Kurk818 side scoops. Note the gas fill is not in the correct spot yet.. this was just to get some gas in the tank. Anything obvious about the location I am missing?

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/OilCooler.jpg

I also wanted to get my suspension at least at a good starting point. I put a level across the rear lower training arms and adjusted the top diagonal lateral in order to get the bars level with each other ( and the ground ). Is that the correct way to start out?

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/RearTrailLevel.jpg

And last but not least I welded up a quick muffler for my karting. I assume that this location will not work with the body installed, correct?

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/ExhaustLocation.jpg

How much room is there behind the transmission and/or lower frame and the body?

[Jaime]

The body starts to bend up just behind that rear-most frame member. About four inches from the back of the transmission to the fiberglass.

[Scargo]

Very exciting time! As I understand it the level should be used that way. Don't forget to tighten all the suspension tube nuts before carting.Not much help... Jealous.

[Hindsight]

I don't think the line between the laterals needs to be level on a bubble level, they just need to in the same plane... meaning, any difference between the height of the inside ends needs to be exactly the same difference between the heights of the outside ends. At least, that is my understanding. Looking really good. I myself am currently struggling with an oil cooler location. Is that a Setrab? Lately I'm considering putting mine laid down float next to the transmission with a fan on the top side of it, pulling air up from below the car.

[Jaime]

Yea, but the inside ends are level if the frame is level.

[sponaugle]

The body starts to bend up just behind that rear-most frame member. About four inches from the back of the transmission to the fiberglass.

Ok Thanks... That makes sense, and I'll need to work a muffler in closer to the downpipe.

[sponaugle]

I don't think the line between the laterals needs to be level on a bubble level, they just need to in the same plane... meaning, any difference between the height of the inside ends needs to be exactly the same difference between the heights of the outside ends. At least, that is my understanding. Looking really good. I myself am currently struggling with an oil cooler location. Is that a Setrab? Lately I'm considering putting mine laid down float next to the transmission with a fan on the top side of it, pulling air up from below the car.


Interesting. I do remember reading that your goal is to start off with the long bolt that connects thru the hub and to each of the lower trailing arms be level with the frame. In that case I think the inner trailing arm joints are level with the frame, and the frame level with the ground, so by keeping the bars themselves level I should get pretty close.

That is an old MOCAL I had laying around. Once I get to the body work and the scoop install, I will get a bigger cooler to maximize the flow I can get. I have always been a fan of oil coolers on cars that I track, especially EJs and EZs. Yea I can see that there is a lot of room on top of the transmission, and a fan could pull some air across it.. my main fear is just that the air temp in the rear engine bay will be so hot. That turbo and downpipe get glowing red hot once you really start pushing things.

I am considering trying to do some type of coating works.. perhaps swaintech.

I can also extend the joint that connects the hub to he chassis going forward (the one with the bend in it for larger tires). That would push the bottom of the hub back, rotating the opposite direction then when you push from the top diagonal bar.


Yea, but the inside ends are level if the frame is level.

Right.. that was my thought as well. I'll use this as a starting point and see how the other alignment parameters turn up. I am switching to a 7' bar for the upper 'camber' adjustment link, and I got a set of 1" longer lower training arm adjustments just in case I need them. I don't mind making the rear track a little wider as I will have to do custom fenders with these large tires.


Thanks guys for the help!

Jeff

[billjr212]

I am putting an oil cooler in, and this is my mock up location. I think this will work well with the Kurk818 side scoops. Note the gas fill is not in the correct spot yet.. this was just to get some gas in the tank. Anything obvious about the location I am missing?

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/OilCooler.jpg

And last but not least I welded up a quick muffler for my karting. I assume that this location will not work with the body installed, correct?

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/ExhaustLocation.jpg

How much room is there behind the transmission and/or lower frame and the body?

That Oil cooler location may interfere with the fuel filler pipe once you move it forward to its correct location. Also, where is your coolant overflow?

Regarding the distance from the frame and transmission to the body, you are correct in your assumption that there is not space for the muffler back there. There is maybe an inch to spare from the back of the shifter to the mesh - some report even less, but ultimately depends on how you position the body. Jaime's comment is right on - the body starts to curve up maybe an inch or two behind the frame.

[Hindsight]

Yea I can see that there is a lot of room on top of the transmission, and a fan could pull some air across it.. my main fear is just that the air temp in the rear engine bay will be so hot. That turbo and downpipe get glowing red hot once you really start pushing things.


What I was suggesting is putting it flat next to the transmission (as opposed to on top). You could have it parallel with the frame so it's facing down toward the road. You'd have a steady stream of air flowing beneath the car, some of it may be mixed with engine compartment heat but there should be a lot of airflow there so I'd think it would be pretty cool. You'd then put the fans on top in a pull mode which would pull cool air from below the car up through the core and into the rear of the engine bay. If you had an aluminum engine compartment cover installed, it would work even better because you'd seal the bottom of the engine compartment off and cut a hole that would just expose the oil cooler. You could cover the oil cooler with some aluminum mesh or something to guard against debris.

[sponaugle]

That Oil cooler location may interfere with the fuel filler pipe once you move it forward to its correct location. Also, where is your coolant overflow?

Regarding the distance from the frame and transmission to the body, you are correct in your assumption that there is not space for the muffler back there. There is maybe an inch to spare from the back of the shifter to the mesh - some report even less, but ultimately depends on how you position the body. Jaime's comment is right on - the body starts to curve up maybe an inch or two behind the frame.

Right... Yea will have to move it back some to make room for the filler. I'll go ahead and move the filler to the correct location and see how the room looks.

My coolant overflow is on the other side right next to the coolant tank. I'll post a picture. It is an older Perrin one that is made from end caps and silicone tubing.

Thanks for the details on the muffler. Sounds like I'll get something that fits next to the transmission where the downpipe is. I found a few good options online that are short enough to fit.


What I was suggesting is putting it flat next to the transmission (as opposed to on top). You could have it parallel with the frame so it's facing down toward the road. You'd have a steady stream of air flowing beneath the car, some of it may be mixed with engine compartment heat but there should be a lot of airflow there so I'd think it would be pretty cool. You'd then put the fans on top in a pull mode which would pull cool air from below the car up through the core and into the rear of the engine bay. If you had an aluminum engine compartment cover installed, it would work even better because you'd seal the bottom of the engine compartment off and cut a hole that would just expose the oil cooler. You could cover the oil cooler with some aluminum mesh or something to guard against debris.

Ah ok.. that make sense. Pulling air from underneath the car. I am curious to see what the temps are in the engine bay. I'll add a few extra thermocouples to my setup so I can get an idea.

Jeff

[flynntuna]

I wonder if there's room on the belly pan for NACA ducts like those sold for the GTM by one of the forum vendors (Vraptor speed works)

http://vraptorspeedworks.com/naca-duct-belly-pan-small-trapezoid/

[Harley818]

Hi Jeff,
I've read that the upper trailing link is used to adjust the level of the two lateral links to be parallel just like you measured with the level, so I believe you are good.

On the clearance to the back bumper, here is a pic. Probably about an inch past the steel frame is about all you will have. I was just using the stock system to run the engine to check out the coolant etc. I just pre-fit my exhaust tonight so should have it bolted in next week. pics in my thread.


41771

The Rocket Rally guys here that were going to tune my engine are slammed with rally car commitments. The closest they would recommend is one of the Cobb tuners in Portland! I might be in town sometime this summer.... 6 hr drive down from the border.

[sponaugle]

Hi Jeff,
I've read that the upper trailing link is used to adjust the level of the two lateral links to be parallel just like you measured with the level, so I believe you are good.
On the clearance to the back bumper, here is a pic. Probably about an inch past the steel frame is about all you will have. I was just using the stock system to run the engine to check out the coolant etc. I just pre-fit my exhaust tonight so should have it bolted in next week. pics in my thread.


Good. That makes sense.

Here is a picture of the different rear adjustments:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/RearToeAdjust.jpg

In my mind, here is the order I have done things:

I set the Red length the same on both sides, about mid way across the adjust range.
I set the yellow length to the same length on each bar.
I adjusted the blue length to get the yellow bars parallel
I adjusted the green bar to get a good camber starting point ( 1.75 - 2 degrees )
I went back and adjusted the blue bar to get the yellow level again (if you moved the green a lot).
I adjusted the rear yellow to get the toe I want.
Check the camber again
Check the level of the yellow again.

It might be needed to repeat the blue/yellow/green adjustment as changing one can make a small tweak to the other.

I think it is important to keep the relative lengths as close possible side to side, so after one side it done, I'll do the other side starting with the lengths from the first side.

I have not yet needed to adjust the red, as the blue has enough range to get the trailing arms level. If you did adjust the red and blue together you could move the entire axle center line a bit. I suppose you could adjust these to make sure the yellow bars are exactly perpendicular to the hub.

Since I am using axles that are slightly longer then the FFR ones, I did adjust the yellow and green links to be farther out the extension range (to push the entire hub out a bit). As it sits now fully adjusted, the only problem is the green link. It is a 6" tube, so I bought a 7" replacement tube (on Amazon cheap). That will give me a little more thread engagement when adjusted correctly. I did also purchase 1" longer rods for the yellow and blue, but don't need them as of yet.



The Rocket Rally guys here that were going to tune my engine are slammed with rally car commitments. The closest they would recommend is one of the Cobb tuners in Portland! I might be in town sometime this summer.... 6 hr drive down from the border.

Absolutely. We should arrange to have Tim tune it. He and I will be working on my car as well. I'll mention your car to him this weekend.

Jeff

[Hindsight]

Looks good to me. The only thing I would say is that the trailing arm (red line) should be adjusted to exactly the same length as the stock arms, not midway across the adjustment range. If you don't do that, you'll alter the wheel base, change the fore/aft direction of the lateral links, and your wheels may not be centered to the body.

I don't have the measurement for the control arm length, sorry, but I used one off my donor car to get the length. If you need it, I may still have the old one laying around that I can re-measure for you.

[Jaime]

Don't worry, he's going to have to do it all over again after the body is mounted. The yellow length will be used to get the tire under the fender and the red length is used to get the tire centered in the wheel well. But, it's good to start off square so you can just count the turns instead of re-measuring, which is more difficult with the engine and body installed.

Jeff, while you're at it, you might as well crank those rear shocks way up. I ended up screwing the perch up about as far as I could get it without a spring compressor.

[Scargo]

I don't understand why my lower shock mounts are so cockeyed!

There's also the option of a "canned tune" from one of a few that are doing that on the internet. You still have to data log so they can tweak it if necessary.

[Kurk818]

The Rocket Rally guys here that were going to tune my engine are slammed with rally car commitments. The closest they would recommend is one of the Cobb tuners in Portland! I might be in town sometime this summer.... 6 hr drive down from the border.

Pacific Import Auto performed my tune and are located in Tacoma. They have a long history of working with strictly Subaru's. Up to you tho.

[sponaugle]

Looks good to me. The only thing I would say is that the trailing arm (red line) should be adjusted to exactly the same length as the stock arms, not midway across the adjustment range. If you don't do that, you'll alter the wheel base, change the fore/aft direction of the lateral links, and your wheels may not be centered to the body.
I don't have the measurement for the control arm length, sorry, but I used one off my donor car to get the length. If you need it, I may still have the old one laying around that I can re-measure for you.

True. If you find that measurement, let me know. I probably don't have my original arms around anywhere.


Don't worry, he's going to have to do it all over again after the body is mounted. The yellow length will be used to get the tire under the fender and the red length is used to get the tire centered in the wheel well. But, it's good to start off square so you can just count the turns instead of re-measuring, which is more difficult with the engine and body installed.
Jeff, while you're at it, you might as well crank those rear shocks way up. I ended up screwing the perch up about as far as I could get it without a spring compressor.

Ah yes.. the body. Given the tire width and extra offset I will be doing some custom fender work, so I am sure you are right about me needing to tweak things.

I forgot about setting the ride height first. Right now it is sitting pretty low. I assume you did that while measuring the height of the frame from the ground?


I don't understand why my lower shock mounts are so cockeyed!
There's also the option of a "canned tune" from one of a few that are doing that on the internet. You still have to data log so they can tweak it if necessary.

Indeed, if you are not doing a crazy build Accesstuner Race is very easy to use. If you are staying with a MAF sensor, all you need to add is a wideband and you can get a pretty good tune with just road logging.


Pacific Import Auto performed my tune and are located in Tacoma. They have a long history of working with strictly Subaru's. Up to you tho.

Yep. PIA can do it as well, and I know them well. They have done lots and lots of Subarus over the years, and Tim from Cobb has tuned there as well many times. Lots of good choices!

Jeff

[Jaime]

I forgot about setting the ride height first. Right now it is sitting pretty low. I assume you did that while measuring the height of the frame from the ground?
Yes. I didn't adjust the ride height until I had the car up to final weight. I was surprised how much static load the rear springs take. My front shocks are adjusted barely past the point where the perch starts to compress the spring. The back shocks are compressed at least an inch and half past where the spring starts to compress (while on the bench, not on the car).

[Sgt.Gator]

Jeff you might want to consider a tranny cooler too. Now's the time while you are locating your oil cooler. If you're interested I can post up pics of my 5 speed with it's inlet/outlet and the way Phoenix Performance setup the Diff and Tranny coolers for the Grand-Am Cup Endurance Racing in my car. Or you are always welcome to drop by my garage in Bend when you're down here.

[sponaugle]

Jeff you might want to consider a tranny cooler too. Now's the time while you are locating your oil cooler. If you're interested I can post up pics of my 5 speed with it's inlet/outlet and the way Phoenix Performance setup the Diff and Tranny coolers for the Grand-Am Cup Endurance Racing in my car. Or you are always welcome to drop by my garage in Bend when you're down here.

That is a great idea. And I am in Bend right now btw. Drop me a txt 503-789-4504
Jeff

[Harley818]

Don't worry, he's going to have to do it all over again after the body is mounted. The yellow length will be used to get the tire under the fender and the red length is used to get the tire centered in the wheel well. But, it's good to start off square so you can just count the turns instead of re-measuring, which is more difficult with the engine and body installed.

Jeff, while you're at it, you might as well crank those rear shocks way up. I ended up screwing the perch up about as far as I could get it without a spring compressor.

I had to adjust and extend the length past the stock trailing link to get the wheels centered in the wheelwell. Then I basically followed the same process that Jeff outlined above.
And yes, crank up your shock adjustments. I set mine to a ride height of 5 inches and had to crank it right up.....

[Harley818]

Pacific Import Auto performed my tune and are located in Tacoma. They have a long history of working with strictly Subaru's. Up to you tho.

good to know kurk. Haven't decided yet. These Rocket Rally guys are really good so thats my first choice.... if I can get in.

[Frank818]

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/RearToeAdjust.jpg

In my mind, here is the order I have done things:

I set the Red length the same on both sides, about mid way across the adjust range.
I set the yellow length to the same length on each bar.
I adjusted the blue length to get the yellow bars parallel
I adjusted the green bar to get a good camber starting point ( 1.75 - 2 degrees )
I went back and adjusted the blue bar to get the yellow level again (if you moved the green a lot).
I adjusted the rear yellow to get the toe I want.
Check the camber again
Check the level of the yellow again.



Jeff, you did not use FFR's recommended starting lengths on the on blue and green lines? I think they recommend 18" and 10" or something like that.

[sponaugle]

Jeff, you did not use FFR's recommended starting lengths on the on blue and green lines? I think they recommend 18" and 10" or something like that.

No, in part because I have now switched to a longer green line tube, as I need to push both wheels out just a bit (about 1/2" per side) due to using longer axles.

[sponaugle]

I am finishing up some running gear stuff before starting on the body. I added a fuel filter and upgraded the line from the tank to the fuel rails to -8AN.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/NewFuelLine.jpg
New Line

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/NewFuelLine2.jpg
New Fuel Filter. I really like the Fore Innovations filters. This is the stainless steel one for use with E85, 10u.

I also finished up getting the AWIC working. I think it is worthwhile to have a tank of some kind for a system like this. Without a tank you will always have some air in the system and no place for the air to go. In the 818 the highest element is the heat exchanger on top of the engine (cooling the turbocharged air). I picked a small 2 qt tank with fittings on the bottom and side. The bottom fitting goes into the pump, which then pumps through the front heat exchanger, back to the rear heat exchanger, then back to the tank (top feed). The system took right at 2 gallons of distilled water, and so far has had no leaks.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/AWIC1.jpg

Here is the tank, just zip tied in place. I’ll make a bracket, but I need to see how low it has to go. I assume that it can’t stick above the frame bars?

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/AWIC2.jpg
The pump is down low on chassis, below the tank.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/AWIC3.jpg

The front heat exchanger installed in front of the radiator.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/AWIC4.jpg

I still need to clean up the oil cooler lines, finish up a few small brackets, and then it is time to start on the body!

[C.Plavan]

You could just add/tap a bleeder valve above the outlet side of the AWIC core. I did, and can bleed the air out. When you drill, coat bit with grease, put Awic core in Vise with drill area facing down so shavings fall down, tape shop vac hose to outlet to suck up shavings. Worked great.

Check/change the rubber seal on the HE black plastic wing it plug. Mine leaked, I had to replace.

[Hindsight]

Looking good Jeff. Don't you want the tank to be the highest point in the system? I have toyed around with adding one myself, but to get it to be the highest point in the system would be a challenge since it would mean putting it above the engine and the only place that would allow for that would be in one of the two humps of the engine cover. Even then, there isn't room for anything very large.... probably not two quarts anyway.

[sponaugle]

You could just add/tap a bleeder valve above the outlet side of the AWIC core. I did, and can bleed the air out. When you drill, coat bit with grease, put Awic core in Vise with drill area facing down so shavings fall down, tape shop vac hose to outlet to suck up shavings. Worked great.

Check/change the rubber seal on the HE black plastic wing it plug. Mine leaked, I had to replace.

That would be a good way to add a bleeder, as I used that exact technique to drill the 3/8 NPT air temp sensor. I prefer to have the tank as it makes it easy to spot small leaks (as there will be less fluid in the container).

Yea I replaced that o-ring after reading about a few people having leaks! No leaks so far for me!


Looking good Jeff. Don't you want the tank to be the highest point in the system? I have toyed around with adding one myself, but to get it to be the highest point in the system would be a challenge since it would mean putting it above the engine and the only place that would allow for that would be in one of the two humps of the engine cover. Even then, there isn't room for anything very large.... probably not two quarts anyway.

It would be ideal to have that be the highest point, but that is difficult to do... The AWIC core at the rear of the car is currently a bit higher. Fortunately since the pump is pushing pretty hard, most of the air should be pushed back over to the tank, as the delta in height is not that much. I let my system sit overnight and when the pump fired up there was no air being pushed out into the tank, so it appears to work pretty well.

For drag racing I might want to add a bigger tank that I could add ice to, as that is a common way to get super cold air temps.

Jeff

[Hindsight]

Are you planning on filling from the reservoir? If you are and the top of the reservoir is lower than the intercooler, won't you lose a bunch of coolant as soon as you open the cap?

Sorry for all the questions.... I ask because I've been thinking a lot about what I'm going to do for a tank in my build too.

[Jaime]

I put my pump up front. It pulls from the bottom of the heat exchanger and pushes to the AWIC core. If I have any extra air, it will eventually get pumped to the heat exchanger, but won't go back into the pump since the inlet is so much higher than the outlet. I can peek into the heat exchanger to see if I have leaks. Essentially, the heat exchanger is my tank. Reports say that the heat exchange is more than capable of handling the heat load, so the reduced cooling effect of a partially full heat exchanger shouldn't matter until it gets measurably low. I should probably put a clear fluid level indicator on the side of the heat exchanger (just clear tubing attached to the inlet and outlet).

Surprisingly, the heat exchanger doesn't dump coolant when the cap is off, even though it's lower than the core.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

It would be ideal to have that be the highest point, but that is difficult to do...

Jeff
My Awic tank is above my core.

42060

I have 2 1/4" hose barbs on the leftside of my AWIC. The bottom one goes to the bottom of the tank. The top on goes into the top of the tank.
Bob

[sponaugle]

Are you planning on filling from the reservoir? If you are and the top of the reservoir is lower than the intercooler, won't you lose a bunch of coolant as soon as you open the cap?
Sorry for all the questions.... I ask because I've been thinking a lot about what I'm going to do for a tank in my build too.

You would think so, but it doesn't. The top of the tank is just slightly lower then the top of the intercooler, so it might be more of a problem if the tank were much lower. I'll take a measurement of what the difference in height is.


I put my pump up front. It pulls from the bottom of the heat exchanger and pushes to the AWIC core. If I have any extra air, it will eventually get pumped to the heat exchanger, but won't go back into the pump since the inlet is so much higher than the outlet. I can peek into the heat exchanger to see if I have leaks. Essentially, the heat exchanger is my tank. Reports say that the heat exchange is more than capable of handling the heat load, so the reduced cooling effect of a partially full heat exchanger shouldn't matter until it gets measurably low. I should probably put a clear fluid level indicator on the side of the heat exchanger (just clear tubing attached to the inlet and outlet).

Surprisingly, the heat exchanger doesn't dump coolant when the cap is off, even though it's lower than the core.

Good idea.... I pulled the cap off my heat exchanger and it did dump water everywhere, but that is almost certainly because the tank is both higher and sitting very close by. My pump is pushing into the heat exchanger, then back to the core.. but I did that only so the pump is always pulling from the bottom of a full tank. Once the first pass of water is through the system, it will push all of the air out.

I am curious to see how well this works. That GT35R I have on there can push a lot of very hot air.

Is anyone using anything other then just distilled water? Adding something like waterwetter?

Jeff

[sponaugle]

Jeff
My Awic tank is above my core.
42060
I have 2 1/4" hose barbs on the leftside of my AWIC. The bottom one goes to the bottom of the tank. The top on goes into the top of the tank.
Bob

Nice.. yea that works well.

Does anyone happen to know if my current location is too high up? the cap and top of the tank is sticking up a bit, but I'm not sure how the body fits there to know if that is a problem.

Jeff

[Wayne Presley]

Jeff, I added a bleed valve to my AWIC kit and I can send you one. Drill and tap a 1/8 NPT hole

http://www.dormanproducts.com/images/product/icon/902-112-001.JPG

[Jaime]

Is anyone using anything other then just distilled water?
It gets cold here, I'm running the same coolant I use in the engine radiator.

[Hindsight]

I'll probably use distilled water only. I doubt I'll drive it in sub-freezing temps.

[sponaugle]

I'll probably use distilled water only. I doubt I'll drive it in sub-freezing temps.

Same for me, but what is important is not what you drive in, but what you store it in. Frozen water in the intercooler would probably crack it inside, which would not be good.

I think I will add a bottle of water wetter and about 20% coolant which should help the freezing a bit. ( As I understand WaterWetter does not change the freezing point ).

Temps here in Portland don't get very cold, so I only need to protect to about 20 degrees F.

[C.Plavan]

You may want to add Water Wetter to lube the pump seals. It will help.

[metros]

Good. That makes sense.

Here is a picture of the different rear adjustments:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/RearToeAdjust.jpg

In my mind, here is the order I have done things:

I set the Red length the same on both sides, about mid way across the adjust range.
I set the yellow length to the same length on each bar.
I adjusted the blue length to get the yellow bars parallel
I adjusted the green bar to get a good camber starting point ( 1.75 - 2 degrees )
I went back and adjusted the blue bar to get the yellow level again (if you moved the green a lot).
I adjusted the rear yellow to get the toe I want.
Check the camber again
Check the level of the yellow again.

It might be needed to repeat the blue/yellow/green adjustment as changing one can make a small tweak to the other.

I think it is important to keep the relative lengths as close possible side to side, so after one side it done, I'll do the other side starting with the lengths from the first side.

I have not yet needed to adjust the red, as the blue has enough range to get the trailing arms level. If you did adjust the red and blue together you could move the entire axle center line a bit. I suppose you could adjust these to make sure the yellow bars are exactly perpendicular to the hub.

Since I am using axles that are slightly longer then the FFR ones, I did adjust the yellow and green links to be farther out the extension range (to push the entire hub out a bit). As it sits now fully adjusted, the only problem is the green link. It is a 6" tube, so I bought a 7" replacement tube (on Amazon cheap). That will give me a little more thread engagement when adjusted correctly. I did also purchase 1" longer rods for the yellow and blue, but don't need them as of yet.



Absolutely. We should arrange to have Tim tune it. He and I will be working on my car as well. I'll mention your car to him this weekend.

Jeff

This picture was very helpful today as I set my alignment and tightened down all the rear suspension bolts.

Thanks for sharing info along in your thread.

[pez]

I run the same coolant in my W2A as the rad (different car). Just makes it easy.

What IC pump are you using? I've had issues with the plastic pumps straight off the HE, so normally plumb them in after the radiator. I've been looking at upgrading my system with the new Davies 130 but want to get more test data first.

Really interested in what you're doing with instruments, could go in a few of my cars!

[sponaugle]

I have started on the body work. I put a few of the parts on for a quick fit to see how much work I have to do in the wheel wells:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/BodyInstall1.jpg

Yea, I think I am going to need some flares.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/BodyInstall2.jpg

The tires and wheel stick out about 2 inches on each side.

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/BodyInstall3.jpg

I think it will look good with some flare on the rear end.

I’m not sure what I am going to do… I am secretly hoping Kirk818 is going to come up with a solution that I can buy from him!!

On a car related front, I got delivery of a *new to me* *old to someone* else car yesterday:

I decided to pick up a little brother for my R35 GT-R. Like pretty much all of the Playstation generation, there were are few cars I have always wanted from those first games.
One was a Rally Subaru, which I already have, and another is an R32 GT-R, which I now have!

http://www.sponaugle.com/R32/R32-New-1.jpg

Since the 1990 R32 GT-Rs are falling under the 25 year import rule, I figured now is the time. As most of you probably already know the Japanese car market is an odd place. There is a relatively high turnover rate for cars that are 5+ years old which makes a very good auction environment. There is a relatively consistent rating system for cars at auction, and while not perfect it does give a general sense of the overall condition. The biggest downside for those of us in the US is that Australia, New Zealand, and Canada have less restrictive import time limits so many great condition cars have already moved out of Japan.

For the US import, the age is based on the month of production, so every month more cars become eligible for import. In 1989 Nissan made 4555 R32 GT-Rs, and in 1990 7476 R32 GT-Rs. That is a lot more than the number of R35s imported and sold in the US each year. I was looking for a 1990 with as few miles as I could find. Most on the auction block seem to have 100,000 - 140,000 km ( 62k-86k miles). I was fortunate to find one with about 70k km ( 43k miles). Given the car is 25 years old that is not a lot of mileage.

Many of the cars will be listed as 'lightly modified', which appears to have a different meaning! It seems like pretty much every one out there is in some way modified, and I would be shocked to see a car that really is completely stock.

The modifications listed by the auction house for my particular car include:

Tomei Poncams Camshafts
Tomei Head Gasket
Tomei Turbo Outlet Pipes
Factory R34 Turbos
HKS Air Cleaners
Tomei Cam Pulleys
Upgraded Radiator
R34 Injectors
Mine's VX-Rom (speed limiter and better mapping)
R34 Brembo Front and Rear Brakes
Nismo Sports Clutch
RS*R Exhaust
Nardi Steering Wheel
Recaro Semi-Bucket Seat
R34 N1 Engine Block with N1 oil pump.

The camshafts and R34 turbos are a pretty common thing to see, and the R34 brakes (Brembo brakes very similar to the Subaru STI brakes) are a nice addition. The Mines VX-Rom ECU and R34 injectors are something I'll replace either way so no real gain. The most surprising modification is the N1 block. The R32s are known for having a weakness in the factory oil pump. The collar around the crankshaft for the pump is very small and prone to failing. The N1 block and oil pump have a much larger collar and surface area for the pump. This is a great upgrade to already have done, as it is something that I would have wanted to do asap.

I used a company called GTR-Garage to purchase the car in Japan, and ship it to me here in the states (Oregon). They took care of the purchase, transportation to a shipping port, cross sea transport, customs taxes, duties ,fees, paperwork, inspections, etc, and delivered the car directly to me. My cost was $23k to my door. A car like this at auction would be somewhere between $15k and $19k in Japan, plus an auction fee. Shipping and insurance vary, but for a drive on-drive off I would expect $1000-$1200, and if you did a container something in the $3k-5k range. Higher mileage less modified R32s might be 10-15k at auction.

My car arrived on Thursday, and I took it out for a spin. Power is pretty good for a car of that era. I would guess 300whp or so, but with a much better power band than an equivalent STI. You can tell the car is lighter than the R35s (by about 700 lbs) , and the overall handling feel was surprisingly good. It felt better than my reasonable well sorted 08 STI. Of course driving and shifting RHD is a different experience, especially on US roads.

Here are a few more pictures:

http://www.sponaugle.com/R32/R32-New-7.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/R32/R32-New-11.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/R32/R32-New-12.jpg

I'm not planning on doing anything super crazy with the car.... I'll replace the ECU with a Vipec, the Turbos with some GT28s, ID1300s, E85, perhaps some forged pistons and rods, although the stock pistons and rods are already forged and very strong. I'd like to get a good 600whp out of it.

If you are looking for something fun to play with, you should pick one up.

Jeff

[metalmaker12]

Sweeeeeeet GTR man!!! Wow epic

[Kurk818]

Nice to see you back.

On the topic of wheel flares, i plan to tackle that this winter. For now, i have almost 1000miles on my car with this short term solution.

http://i.imgur.com/a6LDf4ol.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hI77IcJl.jpg

It was enough to pass state inspection and for now im enjoying just getting used to it and seeing what adjustments need to be done. The ride height is set to the max height for front and rear. The fronts with the 255's only rubs on pothole or steep driveway approaches.

Flares will take care of all the issues and lower it back down :)

[C.Plavan]

You know I might need those (Winter Flares), if I don't blow up the car first :)

[sponaugle]

Nice to see you back.

On the topic of wheel flares, i plan to tackle that this winter. For now, i have almost 1000miles on my car with this short term solution.
It was enough to pass state inspection and for now im enjoying just getting used to it and seeing what adjustments need to be done. The ride height is set to the max height for front and rear. The fronts with the 255's only rubs on pothole or steep driveway approaches.

Flares will take care of all the issues and lower it back down :)

Ah yes.. that is a great short term solution. What flares are those?

[Kurk818]

Ah yes.. that is a great short term solution. What flares are those?

I got them from JEGS. They are a rubber flare designed for 4x4 setups. I glued them on with neoprene adhesive then used some black silicone to fill the gaps. Ill see if i can fin the part number.

[Frank818]

Nice GTR, very compact engine bay! Maybe a good engine in the 818. But that's not to do here.
Nice flare idea too!

Are you the one with 295s?

[Kurk818]

Nice GTR, very compact engine bay! Maybe a good engine in the 818. But that's not to do here.
Nice flare idea too!

Are you the one with 295s?

Yes, i have 295's in the rear as well as 255's in front.

Jeff is running the same if im not mistaken.

[sponaugle]

Yes, i have 295's in the rear as well as 255's in front.

Jeff is running the same if im not mistaken.

Yep.. Same for me. I'm running R888s in that size. I think we are both using the Front STI axles, which pushes things out just a bit.

[sponaugle]

Nice GTR, very compact engine bay! Maybe a good engine in the 818. But that's not to do here.

Oh yea... I thought about that! The RB26DETT is a great engine, although since the front gear diff is in the oil pan, there would be a lot of work to get everything lined up. Besides what else am I going to do with all of these EZ30Rs!
Jeff

[Frank818]

Besides what else am I going to do with all of these EZ30Rs!

Build some 818s and sell them off at a good price! :)

[longislandwrx]

Great purchase.. do you have to bring it to DEQ?

I think there used to be an exemption if you weren't in Portland. i.e. buy a house in Bend and register your car there.

[sponaugle]

Great purchase.. do you have to bring it to DEQ?
I think there used to be an exemption if you weren't in Portland. i.e. buy a house in Bend and register your car there.

I will have to run it through DEQ here in Portland, however since it is a 1990 model year it is just the simple sniffer test, which it will pass without any problems. Indeed if I had it registered in Bend, it would not need any DEQ testing at all.

[Sgt.Gator]

I will have to run it through DEQ here in Portland, however since it is a 1990 model year it is just the simple sniffer test, which it will pass without any problems. Indeed if I had it registered in Bend, it would not need any DEQ testing at all.

I'll be happy to make room for it in my garage!

[nkw8181]

Wow Just found this thread. Everything is looking great! I'm very interested to see how you do the flares (I may copy

[Plebeian]

Sponaugle, any update on your car? I would really love to hear (and see) how the 818 runs with some serious hp behind it. Cheers.

[NISMO_RB25]

Congrats. I have an R33 GTR (grandfathered in from the Motorex days). I put down 492HP to the wheels on pump gas at 19PSI on a 110 degree day. AEM, Tomei Cams, NISMO Intake & intercooler & R400 body kit, 750cc injectors, HKS fuel rail & BOVs, Garrett 2860R turbos. With the price of the R32s staying in the mid 20s it has been very tempting to pick one up.

[Plebeian]

Jeff, have you started back to work on the 818 yet? By the way, there is an outlaw 1/8th mile track (Riverdale Raceway) about 70 miles N of Portland. Only need a helmet and sign a waiver. Just an FYI in case you don't want to deal with passing PIR tech.

[sponaugle]

Sorry for the delay getting an update.... It is still awaiting installation of the body. :) I have been working on some electronics for it however.

see http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?20285-818-Traction-Control&p=229303#post229303

Jeff

[Plebeian]

At the risk of being a pest, any update on your car? This thread has been in suspended animation for a year now.

[JB91710]

I just found out the electronics to run my engines with Motec is going to cost OVER $10,000. Anybody want to buy a cool project or two EZ30 engines?

[Sgt.Gator]

Bump, Jeff are you still in the 818 game?

[Canadian818]

Bump, Jeff are you still in the 818 game?

I sure hope so, this build had so much promise

[Hindsight]

I know he still has the car but I think he's just been busy with other projects.