Anyone building a 3.6 here? [Archive]

TahoeTim

03-24-2014, 09:58 AM

I ordered a kit Saturday and spent the weekend reading up on the 818. I built two FF5 kits almost 10 years ago. It seems that backorders and powdercoat issues are still around.:(

However, in my absence, I built a kit airplane. That experience made the FF5 kit issues seem trivial. After all, you can't just "pull over" if something goes haywire. I live in Lake Tahoe at 6500 ft so I upgraded my airplane engine from the stock 4 cyl to a 6 cyl so I MUST throw a 3.6 engine in my 818. :cool:

While waiting for posting rights, I have been in contact with Wayne about his harness and brain. I see a few 3.0 builds but no 3.6 builds. why? cost?

Tim

StatGSR

03-24-2014, 10:24 AM

I'm sure cost and availability is one reason, and I'm sure those crazy connecting rods that are in the 3.6 and general aftermarket parts availability is another.

also doing any h6 swap guarantees that you will not be doing a "single donor" build which is the primary market for the 818.

TahoeTim

03-24-2014, 10:35 AM

Yeah, I understand the single donor concept and have lived it with two FF5 Cobra builds and a wombat vw donor build. I want to mix and match parts this time. Donor pallets seem to be around 9k so that is my "donor" budget.

Goldwing

03-24-2014, 10:47 AM

The 818 is still pretty young, give it time. Wayne is the only one I know of to try an H6 and I believe his was a 3.0. Talking to Wayne would likely prove helpful comparing dimensions between the 3.0 and 3.6. I think I remember reading the 3.6 is longer. There is a little wiggle room to slide the transmission mounting point backward with regard to the driveshafts. But, it will require some modding at the rear if shifting rearward is needed. The shift selector is close to the bumper as designed. A few solutions have gained an inch and a half, with BobnCincy highlighting a way to get more by cutting the center diff case down. There are a few threads that talk about the dimensions between the H6 engines to search for that are likely a bit buried now. The case mod is newer. Good luck! It would sound beautiful.

TahoeTim

03-24-2014, 10:50 AM

Thanks, I've scoured Wayne's build pages and have been talking to him offline. My ship date is August so someone will try a 3.6 by then.

Rasmus

03-24-2014, 11:14 AM

those crazy connecting rods that are in the 3.6
http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/H6-36-Rod.jpg
I love the "waaah-huh?" factor. It would seem to put less stress on the rod bolts.

TahoeTim

03-24-2014, 11:23 AM

Not as bad as I expected. Being an engineer, I kinda like them.

When you are bored, google Jabiru 3300 offset and you will discover that I am not afraid of a little offset. (have that engine in my airplane).

Crap, I just realized why a $3500 ez36 seems so cheap. My aircraft engine was $20k plus $4k for the mounting kit. The 818 feels so reasonably priced now.:eek:

Xusia

03-24-2014, 11:40 AM

Hey Tim, I'm a fan of the H6's and will probably do another 818 with one in the future. It seems, however, your main reason for wanting an H6 is power and altitude. If that's true, you would be better served by an H4 turbo. Cost aside, building an H4 turbo to the same power level as an H6 is fairly trivial and straightforward. Also, a turbo engine should provide better performance at altitude than a normally aspirated engine. Of course, you could build up and turbo an H6, but then cost, parts availability, and long term viability may become issues. Also, because building the H6's isn't commonplace, there is not a lot of real world data (i.e. the "path" isn't well known, and you are often relying on the opinion of engine builder).

I'm not trying to talk you out of an H6. Just pointing out an easier, more reliable path *IF* your goals are more power and better performance at altitude.

Frank818

03-24-2014, 11:49 AM

The 818 feels so reasonably priced now.:eek:

It just doesn't fly yet.

TahoeTim

03-24-2014, 11:58 AM

Jaime

03-24-2014, 12:18 PM

http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/H6-36-Rod.jpg
I love the "waaah-huh?" factor. It would seem to put less stress on the rod bolts.Everything important is still in-line, so that design isn't all that radical. I would think it would transfer some of the stress from the upper rod bolt to the lower one, which should promote earlier failure. I heard they designed it that way so the rods can be changed without splitting the cases, not for durability or performance.

TahoeTim

03-24-2014, 12:41 PM

Now that you mention it, I agree. On the Subaru forums they said the kink was to add stroke but I don't see a kink at all. If your pulling rod bolts apart, you have bigger issues. My foggy brain is recalling a Cat diesel with a similar rod bolt offset:

http://blogs.cars.com/.a/6a00d83451b3c669e20120a531240f970b-800wi

27234

MUCH higher compression

StatGSR

03-24-2014, 02:10 PM

I'm not trying to say there is a problem with the factory rods, only the situation you are put in if you actually wanted to upgrade them.

TahoeTim

03-24-2014, 02:21 PM

They are factory forged pistons. I have no plans to up the hp so I am not too worried.

Xusia

03-24-2014, 02:32 PM

I agree if altitude was my concern - I simply want grunt, the sound, and I am not a turbo fan. I guess my age of 55 hinders my turbo acceptance somewhat. I'm still in the mindset that there's no substitute for displacement. My 6 CYL airplane just sounds so good... maybe I am missing something...

I hear you. I am also not a turbo fan, and hence I went down this road myself. Again, if HP is your goal, that goal is better served by a turbo H4. If other things are more important, like sound, then an H6 is a great choice. Just realize what you are in for both now (some customization) and later (dearth of upgrade paths).

To use an example you can perhaps relate to, a Ford 335 has more displacement than a 289. But good luck building up a 335 for any reasonable amount of money, or with reliable results. Conversely, you can get just about any HP you want from a 289: TONS of the off the shelf parts. LOADS of people who have been there, done that, and therefore know exactly what to do and what to expect. (In case it wasn't obvious, the Turbo H4 is the 289 in this example)

To get specific, with around $1000-$1200 in bolt on parts you can get a stock EJ2xx (turbo H4) up to the stock power level of the EZ36 (N/A H6). And from what I understand, lag is minimal when sticking with a stock turbo (mine's not stock). Don't forget, this car is light, so you don't need tons of torque to get it moving (this is actually the fact that made me OK with the turbo engine).

You might want to check out the last couple pages of Erik Treves' build thread and watch the videos. You can see just how well the turbo H4 engines work in this platform.

TahoeTim

03-24-2014, 02:37 PM

Yep, in my Cobra I built a stock 302 with big valve iron heads. I threw a set of webers on top and it was the best $3k I ever spent. It revved like a street bike.

If it takes $1200 to match the 3.6 hp then my plan is sound. I will spend that extra $1200 on the 3.6 engine. Different strokes so to speak...

Goldwing

03-24-2014, 04:00 PM

The H6's have a beautiful sound. The 4 just won't compare in that department. The throttle modulation might prove easier as well in the H6. There are good reasons to go with the 6. After driving a turbo for a few years, I did learn to love the feel of a healthy turbo setup. I have to honor my budget constraints, and I found a young donor, so 4 it is. What kind of kit plane did you put together? If I ever get my medical back, I may go that route closer to retirement. The same medical issue prompted me to sell my Goldwing and start my 818 build.

TahoeTim

03-24-2014, 04:36 PM

Goldwing,
I went sport pilot since I am 55 and have afib. The FAA frows on heart issues even though it's never been a problem for me, snowboarding and all.

Look at "new posts" for photos of my plane in the welcome section.

DruOdil

03-24-2014, 07:37 PM

A 3.6 sounds great but at 6500' the turbo will make the biggest difference. A NA will loose power very fast the higher you go. A turbo will hold up or just a slight loss compared to the NA. Look at the turbo or turbo's your getting to have that nice constant psi.

Canadian818

03-24-2014, 09:01 PM

TahoeTim, you have a PM. :cool:

Wayne Presley

03-24-2014, 09:46 PM

I really like my 3.0 for the sound! The 3.6 sounds like fun too. The 3.6 has 256 HP stock and with a turbo at 8 psi it will make about 390 HP.

TahoeTim

03-24-2014, 10:20 PM

Wayne, Did you receive my email regarding aluminum lca's?

What is the final drive ratio of your trans and would you change it if you were doing it over? lot's of 4.44 finals out there...

Wayne Presley

03-25-2014, 06:56 AM

I haven't put enough miles on the car to tell if I'd want to change the final ratio or not.

flynntuna

11-15-2015, 08:20 PM

The ez36 has a different motor mount system than the ez30r.

Sgt.Gator

11-16-2015, 02:30 AM

The ez36 has a different motor mount system than the ez30r.

It looks like the front center mount started on 2010 Legacys and Outbacks when they added the EZ36.

However No Tribecas have the front mount, all years 2007-2014.

2008 Tribeca:
47630

Sgt.Gator

11-16-2015, 03:08 AM

And anyone thinking of a EZ30 or EZ36 should probably download this service manual: http://phantomotaku.com/SVX/011822-MSA5P0631C.pdf

flynntuna

11-16-2015, 06:55 AM

It looks like the front center mount started on 2010 Legacys and Outbacks when they added the EZ36.

However No Tribecas have the front mount, all years 2007-2014.

2008 Tribeca:
47630

Does this mean the mounts are interchangeable for the ez36 depending the application?

Sgt.Gator

11-16-2015, 11:23 AM

Does this mean the mounts are interchangeable for the ez36 depending the application?

I'm not 100% sure. The 2010 Legacy/Outback is the first year of the 5th Gen models and added the 3.6 engine. I'm asking now on the Legacy GT forum why the 5th Gen has the front mount and the 4th Gen does not.
I'm speculating that the front mount was added and the side mounts were redesigned for crash safety reasons, not performance. Possibly the new side and front mount gives better impact protection to occupants than the older side mounts only. Someone on the LGT forums will know.

I'm fairly certain of the safety reason though because even the 2.5L turbo has the front mount in the 5th Gens. Here you can see the mount, and the brace that is added to allow the front mount to connect to the block.

4763447635

I have verified thru Subaru parts that the Legacy-Outback 3.0 engine mounts on the side are the same part number as the Tribeca 3.6 mounts. So I assume they would work on all 3.6 blocks.

47636

flynntuna

11-16-2015, 10:04 PM

Found a thread on nasoic regarding the ez30

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1323800

Sgt.Gator

11-25-2015, 12:51 AM

On the 3.0 vs 3.6 engine mounts: I thought I would get a good answer on the Legacy forum. I did not get an expert answer. The three answers:

1) The 5th gen powertrains all mount from the transmission not the engine block, that is why the funky side mounts are there. Aside from that the 3.6 should be identical to the 3.0 it replaced on the outside at least.

2) I dunno about "identical" 3.6 from a 5th gen probably doesn't have a spot to attach the older style engine mounts. Probably have to go with the Tribeca 3.6 if you want to mount it in a 818.

3) If nothing else the bosses will be there just need to be tapped and threaded. I doubt subaru changed production of the 3.6 just for the 5th gen. It is easy enough to check for the appropriate bolt holes.

flynntuna

11-25-2015, 08:03 AM

I think it might be prudent to have a set of each when installing the engine to see what works best?

Sgt.Gator

11-25-2015, 11:07 AM

I'll go by Subaru of Bend and check with my techs there, and have a look. They always have newer 3.6 cars up on the lifts, it should be possible to see if the mount holes on the sides are still there.

flynntuna

11-25-2015, 01:39 PM

That will be awesome. :cool:

Sgt.Gator

11-30-2015, 04:20 PM

I went by the shop. They had no 3.6 on the rack at the time but the tech said he'd watch for one and check to see if the side mounts will bolt on. He knew exactly what we are looking to figure out. He did say the trans mounts differently too, I'm not sure what that means for us.
I have checked into Tribeca engines and trannys, they are relatively cheap and available.

flynntuna

11-30-2015, 08:42 PM

The 5sp bolted just fine to my 3.6

Sgt.Gator

12-01-2015, 02:04 AM

The 5sp bolted just fine to my 3.6
Great! If you are referring to the above comment about the trans mounting differently, I meant to the car frame, not the engine. But if you have a Tribeca 3.6 you should be good to go if you can figure out how to shorten the 5EAT and make it FWD. Or did you bolt up a 5 speed manual?

flynntuna

12-01-2015, 02:32 AM

The engine is an ez36 from a 2011 outback, and the tranny is a 5sp from a 05 forester xt.

PSUalum1986

12-03-2015, 03:41 PM

The engine is an ez36 from a 2011 outback, and the tranny is a 5sp from a 05 forester xt.

What model 5 speed trans did you use? Which engine mounts? Any alterations to the car to get it to fit?

flynntuna

12-03-2015, 09:51 PM

The tranny is a ty755vw5aa. Out of an 05 forester xt 2.5lt final drive 4.44 1st 3.45 ,2nd 1.94, 3rd 1.36,4th .97 5th .73.
Still researching which engine mounts to use. The tranny mounts are stock. It should fit like the ez30 which has already been done. The only alterations will be a custom exhaust, hopefully the raptor headers will fit without any problem :p

Sgt.Gator

12-07-2015, 03:50 PM

Good News: My tech at the Subaru dealer says the 2016 H6 Outback still has the threaded holes for the old style side mounts, they should work with no problem. So all 3.6 should work with the old side mounts.

flynntuna

12-07-2015, 09:20 PM

That's great news! So we have options in mounting the ez36. I assume the front mount is used to keep the engine from rocking? The older system had the dog bone in the rear, and the later models have the front mount. It looks like from the parts site that there are two versions of the front mount that can be used. I'm thinking it could be mounted to the crossbar behind the fuel tank. What do you think?

Sgt.Gator

12-08-2015, 05:02 PM

He only verified the threaded holes on the bottom sides are still there.
I don't have a frame to look at so I can't answer your question personally.

48415

flynntuna

12-10-2015, 02:14 PM

flynntuna

12-28-2015, 12:23 PM

Hopefully Jeff can weigh in on this thread and shed some light ez36 motor mount questions.

craigfree

12-28-2015, 01:57 PM

I reread Wayne's thread, http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?11192-H6-EZ30-engine-in-the-818-IT-FITS ( A must read for anyone looking into a h6 engine) his install has the engine .333" from the firewall and from the pictures it looks like the bottom of the block is even more or less with the bottom of the frame at the fuel tank. If I get the Boyd fuel tank and put the rear firewall on the fuel tank side of the frame there should be room to use parts of the front mounted engine mount and fab or modify the mounting system to fit.

Be careful here. I read Wayne's thread and bought the ez30r thinking I could use stock mounts. That .333 inches from the firewall with a ez30d motor. The ez30r has cam phasors and ez36 has cam phasor on intake and exhaust side. The cam phasor requires the engine to be set further back mandating custom mounts. This image is with custom mounts.
http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u420/CraigFree/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150526_240217253_zpsg19j3qej.jpg (http://s1066.photobucket.com/user/CraigFree/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150526_240217253_zpsg19j3qej.jpg.html)

Bob_n_Cincy

12-28-2015, 02:56 PM

Just to make you guys aware that you will need stiffer motor mounts. This is the motor movement with stock EJ25 mounts.

https://youtu.be/sZ7PRMYRqRw

Sgt.Gator

12-29-2015, 01:13 AM

Just to make you guys aware that you will need stiffer motor mounts. This in the motor movement with stock EJ25 mounts.

https://youtu.be/sZ7PRMYRqRw

Wow, that's way too much movement. You can see why Subaru has the pitch stopper mount. Has anyone figured out a way to use one of those in an 818?

JeromeS13

12-29-2015, 01:58 PM

Wow, that's way too much movement. You can see why Subaru has the pitch stopper mount. Has anyone figured out a way to use one of those in an 818?

Just use Cusco or similar engine and transmission mounts, and you won't need an additional mount.

Throttle46

12-29-2015, 08:51 PM

Hey guys(and girls)
EZ36 is definitely fine for engine mounts as we have done a EZ36 swap into an MY12 STi with a 6262, the car that spawned the MCM Gramps build here in Australia so the conversion process is not difficult.
Yes the AVCS cam cover humps are going to be an issue for the 818 chassis but using a 5 speed box should help with overall length of the engine+trans
I have full Tactrix software definitions for anyone who wants to use the EZ36 in their 818 on factory computer as well :)