alignment specs??

[philly15]

now that some kits are being finished/have been finished, i was wondering if someone could shed some light on what they are running for alignment specs on their 818?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

now that some kits are being finished/have been finished, i was wondering if someone could shed some light on what they are running for alignment specs on their 818?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23464&d=1384821033

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Can somebody that has gotten a wheel alignment done publish the length of each side on the front upper A arms. This would help getting our alignment close before we can get it to a shop to do it right.
Thanks
Bob

[CU9DZ]

Yes I was thinking the same thing. The picture on page 81 "Adjusting the upper control arm" don't help. Anybody out there with an aligned 818 that could help with measurements?

[Harley818]

I was at exactly this same point.
Manual says adjust the upper control arm to the correct length..... but doesn't give lengths.
Where do we get them from?
Hopefully someone has measurements based on the correct final alignment?

[Wayne Presley]

There is no correct length for the upper arm. All comes down to the parts for the exact car.

[Goldwing]

Can somebody that has gotten a wheel alignment done publish the length of each side on the front upper A arms. This would help getting our alignment close before we can get it to a shop to do it right.
Thanks
Bob

I'm betting differences between aluminum, steel, and aluminum STI arms, weld heat warp or errors on the frame, etc will make the upper arms measure differently.

That said:
Upper front rear, bolt center to bolt center: 112mm
Upper front front, bolt center to thread base shoulder 130mm
Upper rear later: 10-1/8" eyeballed (bolt centers)
Upper rear trailing link: ~18" eyeballed (bolt centers)
Lower rear later (mine's adjustable): 16-1/4" eyeballed for reference (bolt centers)

I have the newer straight ball joint mount. I aligned it with the car in the air without proper tools, so it won't be correct for ride height and likely a mess, lol, but it's a start.

I might suggest changing the "N/A" in the above chart in your manual for rear caster to "parallel" or something to remind you to get both lateral links to parallel. The adjustment is similar to adjusting caster (using adjustable upper rear trailing link), so it's a good spot for a reminder.

[Goldwing]

I figured out that on an 07 steering rack, 20* of steering angle (for measuring front caster with some tools) is accomplished by turning the steering wheel 45* short of a full turn of 360*, or 315* for the ocd's out there.

[07FIREBLADE]

Wanted to bump this thread real quick for anyone who has done an alignment with a ride height other than recommended. What was your specs that you had the guy set your car too. I want to run a ride height of 5" instead of 4.5" and was wondering if I could use the same specs or they need to be tweaked in a certain way and which ones.

[Wayne Presley]

I'd use the same specs, and have them check bumpsteer.

[07FIREBLADE]

Cool thanks Wayne. Just what I wanted to hear.

[Frank818]

Would you also check bumpsteer at 4.75"?

[Wayne Presley]

I would check bumpsteer every time

[Frank818]

Ok and to measure bumpsteer you do something like this?


- Set caster, camber, toe-in and check suspension ride height
- Disconnect sway bar (if any) and shocks
- Put car on 4 jack stands
- Remove wheel and bolt a flat plate to the hub. Lock SW straight ahead.
- Put a gauge under A-frame with jack tube under ball joint and raise suspension back to original ride height.
- Level plate and gauge.
- Adjust dial indicators on right and left at same height on tapes.


I googled it, but I don't fully picture the steps and don't know if they apply for the 818. Not sure either how to adjust bumpsteer if it's incorrect. And what is the definition of "incorrect" as well...

[dougkirkbride]

40123

got my front aligned as best as i could. drivers side front is right within specs. passanger side camber is plus 1.5 degrees. drivers is plus 3 i couldnt get passanger side to plus 3 without an interference with my wheel and frame. rims are 17 plus 45 konig oversteer. tires are ado8r 215-40-17. i do remember putting my lower arms in and my drivers side was really tight. Passanger side fit well. the drivers side being tight/bound......i figure this pushed my wheel forward enough to give me clearance on that side.

2 questions for those that have been where i am-
i figure i need to bring my back(firewall mounted) bushing for lower arm out a tad towards the outside of the car to move the tire forward to bring it away from the firewall frame. any other options? spacers wouldnt help, its htting the firewall frame.
can i cheat any of the other specs to find a happy medium. does the 1.5 degress reall make a difference?
i dont feel like blocking my steering with spacers at this point.

[JeromeS13]

You're running positive camber on both sides? Something is wrong... And, yes. 1.5 degree difference between sides makes a difference.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Doug
I think you mixing words CAMBER for CASTER in your post above.
Remember this thread:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13361-Front-shock-mount-and-control-arm-question&p=140425&viewfull=1#post140425
Have you got your LCA bushing installed with the squiggly down?
Post some pictures, I have similar diameter tires with 3/4" clearance.
Bob

[dougkirkbride]

Doug
I think you mixing words CAMBER for CASTER in your post above.

Bob
your right, i was referring to JUST castor, other specs are ok. i will post some pics tonight but my bushing squiggleys are down so they should be installed correctly. i am measuring castor off the ffr spindle attachment block that goes up to the upper ball joint. i am using a level to measure.
thanks for the input.
doug

[dougkirkbride]

Have you got your LCA bushing installed with the squiggly down?

you must have a great memory..... so after going back thru this thread, the squiggly or bulged side of the bushing needs to be down. correct?

I will have to look tonight.

[dougkirkbride]

here are my pics. i am kindof bummed, my squiggly's are mounted on the bottom.
40160
40161

i am wondering if i am measuring castor correctly. i am using a digital level off the ffr vertical spindle attachment piece. i am measuring this at ride height with the steering straight.
here are pics of tire clearance on passanger side. its about an 1/8 off the firewall frame. its about 3/4" from the frame piece on the inside of the tire. these clearances are with only about 1.25 degrees of castor.
40162
40163

the passanger side is the only side thats giving me a problem. the drivers side i was able to hit all the recomendid alignment specs with good clearances at full lock.

[Wayne Presley]

That is not how caster is measured, it's the line through the pivot of the upper to lower ball joint. The adapter may not be in that same plane

[dougkirkbride]

That is not how caster is measured, it's the line through the pivot of the upper to lower ball joint. The adapter may not be in that same plane

40164

ok so the line through the 2 pivot points if a ridgid member would give you the castor angle. correct. thats what i thought i was measuring. i will have to revisit this on google,but wouldnt the ffr piece at the top of the spindle give you that? maybe it already has an angle built in when bolted ridgid, that is what i dont know. in laymens terms and with tape measures, plumb bobs, levels is there another way i can check this that people have used?

[wleehendrick]

I'm not an alignment expert, but isn't caster generally measured in an assembled vehicle by taking the difference in camber angle with the wheel turned 20deg to the left vs. right?

[Wayne Presley]

I'm not an alignment expert, but isn't caster generally measured in an assembled vehicle by taking the difference in camber angle with the wheel turned 20deg to the left vs. right?


The exact number of degrees depends on the alignment gauge you are using. It looks at the camber difference from turned in vs turned out and calculates true caster.

[Wayne Presley]

40164

ok so the line through the 2 pivot points if a ridgid member would give you the castor angle. correct. thats what i thought i was measuring. i will have to revisit this on google,but wouldnt the ffr piece at the top of the spindle give you that? maybe it already has an angle built in when bolted ridgid, that is what i dont know. in laymens terms and with tape measures, plumb bobs, levels is there another way i can check this that people have used?


I pulled out a spindle and the plate seems to be directly in line with the upper and lower ball joints so it is a reasonable place to measure from.

[dougkirkbride]

I pulled out a spindle and the plate seems to be directly in line with the upper and lower ball joints so it is a reasonable place to measure from.

thanks for checking wayne, although i am still baffled at why i have the differences between the 2 sides. i am going to revisit today to see if i have any epifany's :D.

[philly15]

does anyone building an 818 have any track day alignment specs? i personally think the factory five specs are kind of ridiculous for a track car. I spent last weekend trying to figure out how to get any kind of negative camber up front. With the free caster mod and cutting the upper control arm lengths, i got maybe 1 degree of negative camber. I ended up moving the lower control arm to the wagon mounting holes (I have 06 wrx sedan aluminum arms) and now i can get up to -4.0 camber per side! Now that i did that though, the tie rods are not long enough to compensate for all the toe in this created. Anyone have any input on this?

[Wayne Presley]

I don't know why you would move the arms out like that since that will affect the bump steer. Do you have your wheels and tires yet? You can enlarge you upper IFS bracket and lean the tire toward the upper ball joint picking up more negative camber.

[philly15]

I don't know why you would move the arms out like that since that will affect the bump steer. Do you have your wheels and tires yet? You can enlarge you upper IFS bracket and lean the tire toward the upper ball joint picking up more negative camber.

i understand that, i also ran into the issue of the tie rod not being long enough. I considered slotting the IFS bracket, but i didnt want to risk the bolts slipping in the hole, what about using a stock cam bolt?

I do have wheels and tires, front wheels are 5zigen fn01r-c 17x8 +45, the rears are the mach v wicked awesome 18x9.5 +42 i believe. I also have the mach v 10mm spacers. tires are bridgestone re11's fronts are 225/45r17 rears are 265/35r18

[Wayne Presley]

I did that on one car, used the eccentric bolt that was in there originally.

[philly15]

im gonna give that a shot and see what happens i just find it annoying that i cant get more than like -0.75 to -1.0 degrees camber on a fully adjustable system

[dougkirkbride]

thanks for checking wayne, although i am still baffled at why i have the differences between the 2 sides. i am going to revisit today to see if i have any epifany's :D.

I did have an epiphany...... my rear arm mount was tight, I loosened the bolts and it swung towards the outside of the car maybe an 1/8th of an inch. that was enough to get everything aligned in the front to the ffr specs and still have about 3/8 wheel to firewall frame clearance :o its amazing how much time can be spent on one little problem.

[Frank818]

Doug, by "rear arm" you mean the small arm facing rear of the car on the UCA?

So you now have a good camber/caster using FFR parts, no spacers, nothing cut, no mods?

[dougkirkbride]

Doug, by "rear arm" you mean the small arm facing rear of the car on the UCA?

So you now have a good camber/caster using FFR parts, no spacers, nothing cut, no mods?

yes sir. no spacers and my wheels are plus 45 offset. i may add spacers later once i get the body on.
wheels are 215 - 40- 17 with konig 17 x 8 rims.

[dougkirkbride]

Doug, by "rear arm" you mean the small arm facing rear of the car on the UCA?

So you now have a good camber/caster using FFR parts, no spacers, nothing cut, no mods?

by rear arm i meant my lca bushing mount. the one that mounts back by the firewall with 2 bolts. i only had to cut one of my upper arms, the long one that is in the front. i cut about an inch off it.

[Frank818]

I got pretty much the same setup, 215/40/17, +48 rims with -10 spacers (final +38) and I use the 2006 WRX (non-STI) alu LCAs. Then cutting the top UCA longer arm might be the way to go. I think I prefer that vs spacers on the LCAs.

[dougkirkbride]

I got pretty much the same setup, 215/40/17, +48 rims with -10 spacers (final +38) and I use the 2006 WRX (non-STI) alu LCAs. Then cutting the top UCA longer arm might be the way to go. I think I prefer that vs spacers on the LCAs.

Ya I read the part about cutting the top long arm in another thread a while back. it seemed to work for me. Our setup is similar although I have an 06 wagon donor with the steel arms.

[Scargo]

If you want to know what is going on with your changes then I highly recommend considering using Vsusp.com (http://vsusp.com/#0.8%26project_name%3Adefault%20values%26trim%7Bbo dy_roll_angle%3A0%7Cfront.left_bump%3A0%7Crear.lef t_bump%3A0%7Cfront.right_bump%3A0%7Crear.right_bum p%3A0%7D%26front%7Bframe.susp_type%3A0%7Cframe.bot tom_y%3A9200%7Cframe.center_to_upper_mount_x%3A285 00%7Cframe.bottom_to_upper_mount_y%3A24000%7Cframe .center_to_lower_mount_x%3A17000%7Cframe.bottom_to _lower_mount_y%3A2400%7Ccontrol_arms.upper_length% 3A24800%7Ccontrol_arms.lower_length%3A37500%7Cknuc kles.hub_to_upper_x%3A15000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lowe r_x%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_y%3A13000%7Ckn uckles.hub_to_upper_y%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_st rut_axis%3A14000%7Cknuckles.strut_incl%3A8000%7Cwh eels.offset%3A4000%7Cwheels.diameter%3A1500%7Cwhee ls.diameter_expl%3A35000%7Ctires.size_convention%3 A0%7Ctires.section_width%3A19500%7Ctires.aspect_ra tio%3A4500%7Ctires.diameter_expl%3A50000%7Ctires.w idth_expl%3A7620%7Ctires.compression%3A0%7D%26rear %7Bframe.susp_type%3A0%7Cframe.bottom_y%3A9200%7Cf rame.center_to_upper_mount_x%3A28500%7Cframe.botto m_to_upper_mount_y%3A24000%7Cframe.center_to_lower _mount_x%3A17000%7Cframe.bottom_to_lower_mount_y%3 A2400%7Ccontrol_arms.upper_length%3A24800%7Ccontro l_arms.lower_length%3A37500%7Cknuckles.hub_to_uppe r_x%3A15000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_x%3A13000%7Ckn uckles.hub_to_lower_y%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_up per_y%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_strut_axis%3A14000 %7Cknuckles.strut_incl%3A8000%7Cwheels.offset%3A40 00%7Cwheels.diameter%3A1500%7Cwheels.diameter_expl %3A35000%7Ctires.size_convention%3A0%7Ctires.secti on_width%3A19500%7Ctires.aspect_ratio%3A4500%7Ctir es.diameter_expl%3A50000%7Ctires.width_expl%3A7620 %7Ctires.compression%3A0%7D%26pref%7Bdiag1.px_per_ mm%3A200%7Cdiag1.front_or_rear%3Afront%7Ctab.activ e%3A0%7Cunits%3A0%7Cshow.f%3A1%7Cshow.ca%3A1%7Csho w.k%3A1%7Cshow.w%3A1%7Cshow.t%3A1%7Cshow.rc%3A1%7C show.ic%3A1%7Cshow.fvsa%3A0%7Cshow.tl%3A0%7Cshow.k pil%3A0%7Credraw_during_drag%3A1%7Cchart.x_axis_ce nter%3A0%7Cchart.x_axis_window%3A10%7Cchart.x_axis _num_steps%3A21%7Cchart.x_axis_field%3Atrim.body_r oll_angle%7Cchart.y_axis_fields%3A%5BFR%5D.general .roll_center.y%7D). You'll have to do some measuring, but it can help you dial in the best geometry without the guesswork. As Wayne mentioned, you can mess up your bump-steer and end up with too much or too little camber gain and other unwanted consequences from hacking away at it and only looking at camber...

[Frank818]

Doug, I wonder how the steel vs alu LCA makes a difference. I believe there is a slight one.

Tnx scargo for the vsusp.com, looks a great tool, I'll measure some of it and see what happens!