Oil pan suggestions

[tmoretta]

Is it necessary to improve the orig. oil pan on the WRX (windage baffle, etc.) to avoid oil starvation on the track? Or is it sufficient just to add extra motor oil to the crankcase? I know that Grassroots Motorsports spun a bearing on theirs.

[Mechie3]

Spun bearings arent uncommon if you dont check your oil on a wrx as they tend to consume some. Everyone has a preference and different opinion but I found Mobil 1 disappeared rather quickly and Rotella T6 5W-40 has been good for me.

That said, I don't know the cause of their failure. The 2.5L pan is a nice upgrade to the 2.0L pan but also requires the 2.5L pickup. Some 2.5L pickups showed cracking failures so myself and others have gone aftermarket on the pickup.

[longislandwrx]

I too go through a bit of 5W-30 Mobile 1. It's usually about a quart down by the time it comes to change it if I don't top it off. I would always test it before a track day though.


I think the Sti pan is sufficient, although the Killer B pan would make a nice, albeit spendy upgrade. An accusump is also an option of you want some added security.

[apexanimal]

The t6 5w-40 is the most widely accepted oil that works well for suby engines...

Does the killerb pan extend lower than stock?

[tmoretta]

on my last track car (1972 BMW 2002 M3 motor) I used Amsoil racing 15W50 with good success. I was just wondering if the stock subie oil pan required a windage tray or something.

[philly15]

required no, but it wouldnt be a bad idea if you track it a lot. i did the killer b pickup and windage tray just for piece of mind on my 2.5L. ive never had any issues autocrossing my 2.0L wrxs though. and for oil ive always run 10w40 in the summer and 0w40 in winter castrol edge never burns any i usually change it between 2500 and 3000. good habit too, i check my oil level every time i put gas in the car, just to make sure there arent any issues.

[C.Plavan]

I have the Killer B oil pan set up. Killer b says it extends about 1/2" lower than the OEM pan. The Killer B also holds a little more oil too.

[apexanimal]

Thanks

[mikeb75]

+1 on the Shell Rotella T6 and +1 on the KillerB oil pan/pickup/baffle, I run both on my STI, and its seen a number of track days.

I've definitely got some concerns about the stock oiling system and the flat engine on a car that sustains 1.5G in corners. I'm not only worried about starvation, but also oil surging into the heads or maybe the bores if running a very high oil level +high lateral load.

I've gone so far as to price out dry sump systems, but they are quite pricey!

[Xusia]

I figure if I kill my engine by oil starvation it will be a good excuse to pick up an H6.

[BrandonDrums]

Oh this is my topic! I would suggest running 5 quarts instead of the 4.7 recommended in the manual on both the STI and WRX pans. Ideally, you'll upgrade to an STI pan and a Killer-b Pickup tube and run good oil. You should be fine after that.

Read this: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2401576
It's my thread on NASIOC about Rod Bearing failures but we were lucky enough to get some of the Premier Subaru shops from across the nation to weigh in on the issue with fantastic information.

To summarize the conclusions found in that thread:
First off, don't use 5w-30 in your Subaru of any type really. Even the factory manual states to use 10w-40 if you submit your car to 'hard driving conditions' and then defines hard driving as basically what the WRX is marketed to do; Going WOT and hitting redline several times a day, stop and go driving etc. Subaru should ship WRX's with 10w-40 and with oil fill caps with 10w-40 on it instead of 5w-30. No one drives a WRX in "regular" driving conditions as defined by the manual. The car just isn't marketed or sold to the granny/soccer mom demographic who hyper miles in the right hand lane to pick the kids up from the pool.

Anyway, the STI pan is a good upgrade from the WRX pan, it's deeper and more narrow which pools the oil around the pickup tube even in hard turning. The WRX pan is shaped in a way that allows a lot more sloshing from side to side. Why they don't just put the STI pan on all of their cars, I don't know. There's nothing special about it other than it's cast in a different shape, it should be standard...that's a different gripe.

The oil pickup tubes are the same between the WRX and STI for the most part, however both are prone to cracking at the welds and aren't really designed to maintain maximum flow to the pump. If you swap pans, just spend the extra money and get a Killer-B pickup, it's absolutely 100% worth it.

As other guys have pointed out, the best 'cheap' oil for WRX/STI is the Shell Rotella T6 5W-40. It out performs just about everything you can find aside from Mobil 1 European Spec 0w-40 which is similarly priced and easily found at wal-mart etc. All of the best information on the topic leaves us with many reasons to run the T6 in the summer and run the Mobil 1 Euro Spec 0W-40 in the winter.

Regular Mobil 1 is VERY different from this Euro Spec 0W-40 stuff. A regulatory law changed many years back that allowed a new process to take low-quality oil and qualify it as 'full synthetic' which Mobil led the pack in changing their base, cheap synthetics to. They perform great in standard vehicles but the new formula found in most of your cheap synthetic formulas can't hold up to high-heat high-sheer applications as found in small displacement turbocharged engines. Many engines have died using these 'synthetic' oils bought on the reputations of their actual synthetic predecessors. That change in regulation in the usage of the name "Full Synthetic" basically allowed lubricant producers to take a low-quality conventional oil, 'hydrocrack' it and add some additives to slap a label that earned them a couple bucks more per bottle for the same junk as their conventional stuff.

It sucks but that's the oil industry for you.

[apexanimal]

So where might one get the euro spec 0w40 m1 and what distinguishes the packaging?

[07FIREBLADE]

It will say euro spec on the bottle. Most auto stores sell it. Thanks Brandon. What you recommends a sti pan or the killer b on for even more oil capacity.

[BrandonDrums]

So where might one get the euro spec 0w40 m1 and what distinguishes the packaging?

The best place is Wal-Mart. It's just over 20 bucks for a 5 quart bottle. Drain as much oil as you can from your WRX/STI and put the whole bottle in. Easy as pie.

It looks like this:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mobil-1-0W-40-Advanced-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-5-Quart/23636902
http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/07/19/24/54/0007192454526_500X500.jpg


It will say euro spec on the bottle. Most auto stores sell it. Thanks Brandon. What you recommends a sti pan or the killer b on for even more oil capacity.

NP Man...I've had 2 rod bearing failures so I've been 'looking into' the issue so to speak lol. I guess I've become a bit of a paranoid nerd at this point.

But back to the pan, the ideal setup would be to go with a Killer B pan and pickup, as Dominic points out several times throughout the rod bearing thread, another big problem with WRX's and STI's is the small oil capacity considering the power output. That makes heat, coking and breakdown of the oil go so much faster when it's cycled so often. However, for most moderately tuned wrx/sti's just having good oil and a good oil supply will be good enough for most folks.

[07FIREBLADE]

Ok sounds good except I'm now paranoid and might bite the bullet and get 2 killer b oil pans. One for my 818 and the other for my dd wrx. Good to see you back on this forum. I was following your nasioc thread awhile ago.

[tmoretta]

How much deeper is the STI oil pan? Any problem with clearance on the 818?

[Scargo]

This is from my perspective as someone that has raced in SCCA, is now racing/doing HPDE in a prepared STi, and has built numerous engines. I've been doing things with motorized vehicles for over fifty years.
A story: A long, long time ago a guy built up a VW and then a Porsche for autocross. He built his own manifolds for a dual carb setup on a VW "bug". He ported the heads, installed an Isky cam, big bore kit and headers. It pulled wheelies. On a hot day, on the highway, he was showing off and outran a Corvair till the engine started knocking. It was toast. He had done nothing to handle the increased power other than tipping open the engine compartment lid (so it acted as a scoop). Moral of the story: You cannot start modifying an engine for more power without the having the supporting cast.
With the 818 kit's potential I can see many testing the boundaries of the Subaru engine. It is well documented that the engines cannot sustain extended hard driving or increased boost without modifications. Aptly named, "Rod Bearing Failure Nightmares/Stories (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=38711998#post38711998)" on NASIOC, it contains one post by Chris (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=38711998&postcount=53), the owner of Maxwell Power (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/member.php?u=190729), that pretty well sums up the issues.

For any street engine I would recommend a better, bigger pan, a more effective pickup tube and a windage tray like Killer B offers. Moroso offers a 6.2 quart pan. There is not a cast STi oil pan. I think Brandon misspoke. I have both the KB setup as well as a smaller Moroso pan that holds five+ quarts. I highly recommend an external oil cooler. I don't think the stock one on the motor has much to offer.

For those that are going to flog their cars on the track I think you need all the above and must have something to deal with oil blowby. It is also well documented that oil goes into the heads at high Gs and ends up getting pushed out by blowby. The more boost you make, the greater the blowby. The cast pistons in STis are notorious for breaking when boost is upped and oil gets into the intake tract. There is a gargantuan IWSTI thread called The Official STi engine Venting, A/O Separators, and Catch Cans Thread!! (http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-liter-litre-factory-motor/146699-official-sti-engine-venting-o-separators-catch-cans-thread.html) If you can sift the wheat from the huge amount of chaff, there is a lot to be learned there.
I run a large external filter, large oil cooler, two quart Accusump and thermostatic bypass valve connected with -10 hose/fittings on my race STi, putting out 400 WHP. It holds over nine quarts of oil. I have a catch-can/separator that returns oil to the crankcase.
Since I will race my 818, and since it can generate a lot of G's, I intend to use a dry sump. I am interested in taking to anyone that has had experience with a dry sump system. More to come.

Finally, I heard that FFR did some research on oil pan starvation with the Subaru motor in an 818. Does anyone know anything about this?

[StatGSR]

^ I was thinking a good oil accumulator set up would be good for an 818 as well, if plumbed right if can save a car from short periods of starvation, and can provide some lube for start up which is nice. though it isn't necessarily and end all solution, more of a band aid. Was looking at a setup for my track integra, but decided i would wait till i get my new baffled pan and oil pressure gauge installed to see what is really going on during lapping.

[Bill Waters]

These are great points, Scargo. I find conflicting reports regarding oil starvation in Subbies, and don't feel that I have definitive information to help me plan my build. I have decided to use a Cosworth short block assembly with my highly modified stock heads and cams. I am not confident that a stock pan - even with the improved pickup and pump that Cosworth includes - will be adequate.

I'll be very interested to see what you are able to learn about dry sump systems. If no dry sump, I'll do what you outline for your STi. Are you aware of a manufacturer which makes dry sump systems for a 2.5l?

Thanks, Bill

[Santiago]

Are you aware of a manufacturer which makes dry sump systems for a 2.5l?


Well, there's the Cosworth Dry Sump Kit (http://www.maperformance.com/cosworth-dry-sump-setup-kit-subaru-ej-series-20004463.html)...which costs as much or more than some of the engines I've seen...

You asked. =)

Best,
-j

[Scargo]

Dry Sump Systems and components

Cosworth (http://www.rallysportdirect.com/Cosworth-Dry-Sump-Oil-System-Subaru-Turbo-Models-inc-2002-2011-WRX-STI) in UK: $3,600 for an incomplete setup.
I believe the Cosworth kit uses a standard fitting, but high volume, Subaru-type, gerotor-style pumps oil pump; meaning the pump is not gutted and blocked off as in other systems. It looks to have a vacuum regulator. Huge bucks for such a minimal design. You don't get hoses, reservoir or breather tank.
Element Tuning makes a kit which uses an ARE pan and standard parts for $2,499. (http://elementtuning.com/store/#!/~/product/category=439244&id=14350303) Not sure whose pump they use.
Peterson (http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/pump_dry_4stg.html) in Colorado: List of components for use on a Suabru, but no specific kit is listed. Four lobe pumps. Peterson has a good reputation.
Dailey Engineering (http://www.daileyengineering.com/subaru_ej_4_cylinder.htm)in California: Undermount style like Zen's. They also offer top mount pumps. Roots Style Rotors are used in the scavenge sections for both style pumps and bronze spur gears are used for the pressure section. Machined from Billet 7075 T6511 aluminum. See post 23. Wayne vouches for this system.
Moroso sells their own line of pumps. (http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?CatCode=12234) They are gerotor and multi-lobe type pumps.
Auto Verdi (http://www.autoverdi.com/downloads/productnews21.pdf)in Sweden: lobed scavenging pumps. AN fitting machined integral to pump, teflon coated.
Zen Performance (http://www.zenperformance.co.uk/p/Products.html)in UK: "Dry sump system for Subaru". No specifics on the site. This is an undermount pump attaching directly to the collecting pan. Does not appeal to me due to all the exhaust heat down there. Could be insulated. Leaves things clean on top. Fewer lines.
I believe the following companies make all spur gear type pumps:
ARE (http://www.drysump.com/Subaru.htm) in California: Complete Subaru kit... no price listed. Machined from 6061 T-6 Billet Aluminum. Spur gear scavenging.
Aviaid (http://www.electronic-pr.com/pr/arch_avi_180.html): Quote, "For supercharged, turbocharged or nitrous-boosted applications a three-stage pump (two for suction, one for pressure) is offered."
Nutter Racing Engines (http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/dry_sump_oil_pump_products.html) in Vancouver, Washington: Extruded housings, inexpensive (?) spur gear type pumps. Not much detail on this page.
Articles by them: Important Facts about Dry-Sump Oil Pumps (http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/about_dry_sump_oil_pumps.html), The truth about some popular MYTHS and CLAIMS
FACTS ABOUT CRANKCASE VACUUM (http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/crankcase_vacuum_facts.html), The Cheapest Power You Can Buy
Razor Performance (http://www.razorperformance.com/catalogue.htm) in MESA, AZ: All spur gear style.
Barnes (http://www.barnessystems.com/9117.htm) in Torrance, CA: I believe theirs are all spur gear pumps. Machined from 7075 T-6 billet aluminum. Has interesting accessory take-off drives for fuel pump, etc. and built-on oil filter mount.
SCP (Stock Car Products) (http://pumps.scpdrysumps.com/) in La Habra, CA: Internals and materials unknown. Seem low~medium priced.
Frank Weiss Racing Components (http://www.fwrc.com/oil-systems.html#drysump) in Indianapolis, IN: No details within skimpy website.

Caveat: I cannot vouch for any of these manufacturers. I am still in a research mode.
The best advice I have been given, IMHO, is that you want a four stage pump with one for the pan, one for each head and one gear-style stage for pressure. Multi-lobe and Roots style scavenging pumps seem to pull better vacuums and are possibly preferred (though more costly) over spur gear styles.
You can keep adding stages, but with more than three (most typical size of pump) you start to run out of room for the pump assembly where the AC compressor used to be. Stages can vary in thickness as the volume they move varies. Hoses are usually -12 for scavenging. Hoses can take up a lot of space; sometimes outlets are combined and feed a single -16 hose. A vacuum regulator may be required. The accumulator or reservoir needs to be vented. Some use a deaerator. Most use a catch-can/breather off the accumulator. Some vent the accumulator. Most have an in-line filter or in-line filter block. Heaters are used to warm the oil since there is usually 10 quarts or so.
I believe that in some cases a new system can be built for around $4K. There seems to be a plethora of used pumps available on Ebay and the like (and begs the question why). Some are rebuildable.

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Scargo, for taking the time to provide such a detailed answer. I will be interested to know what you end up with. I'll investigate dry sump systems, as well as the highest performance conventional systems. I would think the rally crowd would have standardized a very solid system.

Thanks,

Bill

[Wayne Presley]

I can vouch for the Dailey Engineering stuff, works of art and has the highest pan vacuum of any of them. Also one of the expensive ones of the bunch.

[Scargo]

I can vouch for the Dailey Engineering stuff, works of art and has the highest pan vacuum of any of them. Also one of the expensive ones of the bunch.
Do you (or anyone here) feel the Roots type pumps they are using (like in superchargers) is superior to the spur gear type (as old style VW/Porsche) or the gerotor-style pumps (as in the Subaru pump)?

[Wayne Presley]

The pressure section on the Dailey pump is a gerotor, only the scavenge sections are Roots. On a friends drag motor, the Dailey pulls 25" of crankcase vacuum during the run.

[Bill Waters]

I wonder if anyone has any idea regarding fitment issues with oil pans such as this Cosworth setup: http://www.rallispec.com/eng_pan_cossub.html in the 818. Or are there fitment issues in general? I haven't yet unpacked my chassis, and even if I had, my engine is still under construction, as is my transmission, so I can't tell what will work. Does anyone yet know?

Thanks,

Bill

[Xusia]

There are 2 issues you need to keep in mind. The first is depth. Anything taller than the stock oil pan is likely to hang below the frame. Since the car rides so low, this is something to be concerned about. You don't want it scraping or getting hit on something.

The second issue is headers. Not all pans & headers are compatible, though this is more of an issue for equal length headers than unequal.

[C.Plavan]

There are 2 issues you need to keep in mind. The first is depth. Anything taller than the stock oil pan is likely to hang below the frame. Since the car rides so low, this is something to be concerned about. You don't want it scraping or getting hit on something.

The second issue is headers. Not all pans & headers are compatible, though this is more of an issue for equal length headers than unequal.

The Killer B set up does not sit that much lower than frame. I'm not too worried about it. I guess you can always make a skid plate. As for headers- looks like I'm going UEL header.

[07FIREBLADE]

Hit up Techworks. Tom makes a true equal length header. I am having him make me one for my 2.2l stroker using a steel Moroso pan. I'm sending him the oil pan so he can drop it into. His jig and mock things up. He's also a new vendor.

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, guys. I guess the reality here is that the 818R evolution is too early for anyone to have these things totally sorted out. Absent someone trying a specific solution and passing that experience along, I am going to have to use the stock pan temporarily on my built engine, fit the engine, and then measure and figure out what will work.
Thanks,

Bill

[Mitch Wright]

Bill,
I believe this has been suggested and the route I have taken. STi pan, Killer Bee Windage tray and oil pick up.

[Wayne Presley]

I can supply the the Killer B pick ups and windage trays.

[bompus]

Are there any reasons to not use the Killer B oil pan for the 818? I believe it hangs 3/8" lower which is my primary concern other than the price. What is your opinion on using the STi pan vs. the Killer B pan when you factor in all of the pros/cons?

[Wayne Presley]

And can supply any Subaru OEM part including the STI pan

[Scargo]

Are there any reasons to not use the Killer B oil pan for the 818? I believe it hangs 3/8" lower which is my primary concern other than the price. What is your opinion on using the STi pan vs. the Killer B pan when you factor in all of the pros/cons?
You cannot get a better designed high-performance pan. Having said that, if you will never drive the car on a track or in an autocross and you will never drive the car in any sporty or sustained aggressive manner that makes G's then you may not need it. If you think you might sell it then you might be increasing it's value and doing the new owner a favor. I'd at least get the windage tray if you get the pan.

You've mentioned the cons. I'd put two skid rails on the car to protect it. Stack something onto or hang something down from what you have with a tapered lead-in. It's not like you're going to be off-roading and have to worry about a single rock sticking up.

My KB oil pan has an overall height of 6-7/8".

[Bill Waters]

Thanks Mitch, Wayne, Scargo.

Wayne - do you handle the Killer B pans as well? If so, can you PM me or email me (wwaters@tanner.org) regarding cost of the pan & windage tray? I presume the Killer B pan will require the appropriate pickup. Please include that. I may have to include it with my trailing arm and ECU/harness order.....

Thanks,

Bill

[Wayne Presley]

The Killer B pan with pick up is $615 and the windage tray is $75, the pick up alone is $170. The STI oil pan is $125 and correct dip stick is $14

[SixStar]

Two things I never discuss; oil, religion.

That said, T6 or nothing in a turbo Subaru.

As for the pan, we're going with a 2.5L pan and a Killer B pickup and tray on the R with our 2.0L. We MAY look at an aftermarket pan, but given the clearance restraints my concern would be it would either hit the chassis or the ground.

[killerbmotorsport]

I have the Killer B oil pan set up. Killer b says it extends about 1/2" lower than the OEM pan. The Killer B also holds a little more oil too.

Thanks for using our products! Correct, or very close. Typically they are right around 7/16" deeper than OEM. OEM pans can vary in depth +/- ~1/8" but on average we are 7/16" deeper. It definitely holds more oil, 30% more (~1.4 quarts), and more than anyone else on the market right now.


+1 on the Shell Rotella T6 and +1 on the KillerB oil pan/pickup/baffle, I run both on my STI, and its seen a number of track days.

I've definitely got some concerns about the stock oiling system and the flat engine on a car that sustains 1.5G in corners. I'm not only worried about starvation, but also oil surging into the heads or maybe the bores if running a very high oil level +high lateral load.

I've gone so far as to price out dry sump systems, but they are quite pricey!

Thanks for suing our products! Some rambling info from our experiences with the Subaru EJ engines. For auto-X the speeds and sustained lateral forces are general not as high and/or as long as you see on road courses. We do not recommend our pan for auto-X events, or at least we've never come across auto-x events where starvation occurred with the OEM EJ25 pan. The turbo EJ25 OEM pan is definitely a step up from the older 'flat bottom' 2.0WRX pan, known to starve easier. OEM STi pan is generally safe to ~1.2Gs. After that point not so much. We have datalogged 1.5+ Gs sustained (with significantly higher spikes) with no starvation on our pan. In fact, we've NEVER datalogged starvation, BUT there have been instances we've recommended dry sump designs (3-stages at the minimum for a Subaru), but never on a road coarse. Contrary to popular belief, oil does not surge out of the pans on these cars an appreciable amount. The problem is that you pump oil into the head that's facing the outside of a corner and it cannot drain back into the pan. "Pooling" in the outside head to the point where it starts holding an amount of oil is in the .9-1.0G range. This is just the Achilles of the EJ engine platform. It will also come nowhere near going into the cylinders/bores as the crank is very far (in relative terms) from the oil level in the pan, so no worries there.


^ I was thinking a good oil accumulator set up would be good for an 818 as well, if plumbed right if can save a car from short periods of starvation, and can provide some lube for start up which is nice. though it isn't necessarily and end all solution, more of a band aid. Was looking at a setup for my track integra, but decided i would wait till i get my new baffled pan and oil pressure gauge installed to see what is really going on during lapping.

The problem with an oil accumulator is that it's definitely a Band-Aid for a problem that should be address. That and they just don't hold enough or flow enough to satisfy the Subaru oiling demands. This is eye opening for those new to Subaru engines, but the OEM Subaru oil pump flows (depending on year/model car) between 12.3 and 16.6 GALLONS per minute. Essentially, the same flow you'd get from a small block Chevy high volume racing oil pump. The accusump simply does not have the pressure or flow capacity to meet the needs. These engines have small highly loaded bearings and are just more sensitive to oiling than most. Assure a good supply, stay on top of oil changes, watch oil temps and you'll be good.


Are there any reasons to not use the Killer B oil pan for the 818? I believe it hangs 3/8" lower which is my primary concern other than the price. What is your opinion on using the STi pan vs. the Killer B pan when you factor in all of the pros/cons?

I can understand the depth concern (7/16" deeper). We do have these installed or rally cars and track cars that see some horrific abuse. The pan is VERY durable, much more than the .030" thick steel OEM pan. Generally, if you've damaged one of our pans... the oil pan is the least of your problems ;) If the car isn't tracked or only sees auto-x, I recommend the EJ25 turbo pan. It's a performance step above the 2.0WRX pan regarding performance driving conditions. For the more serious track user, the OEM pieces are just beyond their limits.

I've been getting 818 calls over the last year or so. A post in another forum reminded me we haven't registered here yet. So now we have :) If anyone has any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

[Wayne Presley]

Thanks for the informative post KillerB. I'm a dealer for your parts and can vouch for how nice the parts are.
Your thoughts on putting the 11mm STI pump on the motors? And do you have a dry sump system you like?

[killerbmotorsport]

Thanks for the informative post KillerB. I'm a dealer for your parts and can vouch for how nice the parts are.
Your thoughts on putting the 11mm STI pump on the motors? And do you have a dry sump system you like?

No problem and thanks so much for supporting our products!

I am not a proponent of upsizing the oil pump. The factory size exceeds the flow needed in stock form, and even when bearing clearances are increased. Using a ball bearing turbo also further reduces oiling demand due to a smaller oil restrictor. So when you increase clearances and decrease the restrictor you are essentially the same as OEM. Opening up the clearnaces on a built engine with a journal bearing turbo still does not push the OEM size pump beyond its capabilities. If anything, the bypass valve will fully open less; aerating the oil less, and not increasing oil temperatures as much. The less you bypass the beter for the oil and oil condition. The only time we recommend upsizing the pump is when clearances exceed +.020" on the mains and +.022" on the rods with a journal bearing turbo. This is essentially how a drag engine is built, not what you'd want in a street build or road coarse car.

I like the Peterson R4 scavenge setup, but again we rarely recommend dry sump. The only two scenarios where we recommend it is oval/circle running on a continuous bank, and Suby powered aerobatic aircraft. The aircraft setup is pretty cool as it allows ANY orientation of the engine, but WAY overkill for a car. IMO a budget setup would run 3-stages, all scavenge, with the OEM oil pump. A high end setup would use 5-stages (4 scavenge, one pump) and not utilize the OEM pump. This setup would also use a sealed PCV and vacuum regulator to manage crankcase vacuum. I do not like any of the off the shelf dry setups as they are overpriced for what they are, and do not scavenge from the heads.

Let me know if anyone has any questions :)

[Santiago]

KillerB, the current FFR 818R car has been logged at regularly pulling 1.6-1.7g in 100+mph sweepers. This is a development mule, so I suspect that by the time we start seeing folks sort through the car's full potential we're going to see higher loads (1.8g - 2.0g sustained would be my guess). If we go with this as our expectation, would you be more inclined to recommend a dry sump set up or do you still think your pan will serve well?

Also, I may personally have an interest in a dry sump set up if it can allow me to lower the engine substantially. A drop potential of 2-3" would catch my attention just for the drop alone, but if I'm only going to get 1" out of a dry sump, then I'm more interested in oil control solutions (pref. that don't empty the bank). The budget setup you suggested sounds interesting, but I'm woefully ignorant of all the details it would require to pull it off. Modifying the OEM pan for bungs, etc., is not a problem, but I was hoping you might give a shortlist of the things that such an approach would require.

Best,
-john

[killerbmotorsport]

KillerB, the current FFR 818R car has been logged at regularly pulling 1.6-1.7g in 100+mph sweepers. This is a development mule, so I suspect that by the time we start seeing folks sort through the car's full potential we're going to see higher loads (1.8g - 2.0g sustained would be my guess). If we go with this as our expectation, would you be more inclined to recommend a dry sump set up or do you still think your pan will serve well?

Also, I may personally have an interest in a dry sump set up if it can allow me to lower the engine substantially. A drop potential of 2-3" would catch my attention just for the drop alone, but if I'm only going to get 1" out of a dry sump, then I'm more interested in oil control solutions (pref. that don't empty the bank). The budget setup you suggested sounds interesting, but I'm woefully ignorant of all the details it would require to pull it off. Modifying the OEM pan for bungs, etc., is not a problem, but I was hoping you might give a shortlist of the things that such an approach would require.

Best,
-john

I'd like to see the datalogs on that. A track prepped (caged, slicks, etc.) STi will see 1.7+ and a bit more with decent aero and speeds. I'd be very impressed if these cars come close to ~2g lateral. Hopefully these values are true, and not being measured with a cell phone app. It's been years since I calculated the critical lateral force, but I want to say it is ~1.82Gs, theoretically. Regardless, if anyone has a true 2G capable car I would like to see how our product performs at these levels on track. Like I said, to date no one has been abe to starve our setup. Not to pat ourselves on the back too much, but we have even replaced other aftermarket setups that have shown pressure problems under track condition. of course every track is different and while I have seen LOTS in this industry, I've not seen it all. So I'm open to exploring limits and coming up with solutions.

So to answer your question... for a wet sump solution our setup is the best performing for an EJ engine, that is currently available. Having not seen oiling issues to date, I'd say it's a good option. Although, you are talking about forces that are beyond what our high end hard core track guys are seeing. Further testing should be done to prove or dispove the capabilities to the levels you are discussing.


Sadly, I'm not all that familiar with the 818 engine mounting design, but droping 2-3" in an Impreza chassis means a redesigned engine cradle or replacing engine mounts with an adapter plate. Even at that, it would be very difficult to swap out mounts only and get a drop that significant. Most aftermarket drop mounts, drop ~6-12mm. I would recommend replacing the OEM pan with a dry-sump pan as it saves a lot of work and is already designed to work correctly. Desiging and plumbing a dry sump system is daunting task if you've never done it before. I recommend searching dry-sump diagrams to get an idea of the parts/pieces needed. Here is a simple diagram of a 4-stage...

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If testing did prove our wet sump was problematic at super high loads... I do have a multi-pickup design I backburnered years ago that would not cost as much as a dry sump, but still pull oil from the heads as well as the sump. I stopped development because... it never became necessary. Hmmmm

[The Race Line]

I am not sure if this would be helpful or not but Cosworth also makes a larger pan that holds an additional two quarts of oil. I ran across it when searching out some other parts.

Not sure about clearance, but I thought I would put this out for discussion.

Happy to help,
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Erik Johnson
The Race Line
(970) 344-7761 phone

[Wayne Presley]

I'd like to see the datalogs on that. A track prepped (caged, slicks, etc.) STi will see 1.7+ and a bit more with decent aero and speeds. I'd be very impressed if these cars come close to ~2g lateral. Hopefully these values are true, and not being measured with a cell phone app. It's been years since I calculated the critical lateral force, but I want to say it is ~1.82Gs, theoretically. Regardless, if anyone has a true 2G capable car I would like to see how our product performs at these levels on track. Like I said, to date no one has been abe to starve our setup. Not to pat ourselves on the back too much, but we have even replaced other aftermarket setups that have shown pressure problems under track condition. of course every track is different and while I have seen LOTS in this industry, I've not seen it all. So I'm open to exploring limits and coming up with solutions.

So to answer your question... for a wet sump solution our setup is the best performing for an EJ engine, that is currently available. Having not seen oiling issues to date, I'd say it's a good option. Although, you are talking about forces that are beyond what our high end hard core track guys are seeing. Further testing should be done to prove or dispove the capabilities to the levels you are discussing.


Sadly, I'm not all that familiar with the 818 engine mounting design, but droping 2-3" in an Impreza chassis means a redesigned engine cradle or replacing engine mounts with an adapter plate. Even at that, it would be very difficult to swap out mounts only and get a drop that significant. Most aftermarket drop mounts, drop ~6-12mm. I would recommend replacing the OEM pan with a dry-sump pan as it saves a lot of work and is already designed to work correctly. Desiging and plumbing a dry sump system is daunting task if you've never done it before. I recommend searching dry-sump diagrams to get an idea of the parts/pieces needed. Here is a simple diagram of a 4-stage...

26136

If testing did prove our wet sump was problematic at super high loads... I do have a multi-pickup design I backburnered years ago that would not cost as much as a dry sump, but still pull oil from the heads as well as the sump. I stopped development because... it never became necessary. Hmmmm


I was at the prototype testing driving both cars and the data was gathered with my TraqMate system. I have all the datalogs and can verify the 1.7 G loads.

[Santiago]

I'd be very impressed if these cars come close to ~2g lateral.

Stick around friend! And prepare to be impressed. This ain't no STi...;)


Regardless, if anyone has a true 2G capable car I would like to see how our product performs at these levels on track.... So I'm open to exploring limits and coming up with solutions.

Good to know. Also nice to hear there's at least a back-burner concept you might revisit if the 818 community puts up a real need. I think you're going to get a lot of business from the R-guys...it's already on my list as Plan-A.

FWIW, I wasn't thinking someone could get a substantial drop simply swapping out the mounts. That wasn't the plan. You're either open to cutting the chassis mounts that constitute our "cradle" or you're pretty much stuck with the what we've got. I'll look into the rest and make a call from there, but I like what you guys offer.

Thanks!

-j

[Sgt.Gator]

Any thoughts on the Cosworth 20002499 Oil Control Baffle Windage Tray Subaru EJ20 EJ25 ? It looks to be a combnation windage tray and crank scraper. I use a crank scraper on my Acura B-18 and it does make a difference.
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Generally around $300-325 from many suppliers.

[killerbmotorsport]

^ The shape of the OEM block itself is a REALLY good crank scraper. The rubber valves will sag open over time loosing effectiveness; it's recommended they are replaced every so many hours. Performance wise, the track guys we consult with saw no difference over OEM when they used them. If it were me, I'd spend that money on a modification with better value and effectiveness.

[killerbmotorsport]

If anyone has a decent datalog showing sustained side loads over 1.6Gs I'd be very interested in seeing them and possibly working out some product testing.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

If anyone has a decent datalog showing sustained side loads over 1.6Gs I'd be very interested in seeing them and possibly working out some product testing.

Hi Killerb
This would be great if you could help out.
The video below is from last year. It shows some sustained 1.5 G in some of the corners.
Since last year FFR has added a bigger wing and some other aero pieces to increase down force.
Thanks
Bob

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KThjC9iUNpU

[killerbmotorsport]

Thanks for posting. I see a couple spots where you can almost see 1.6 sustained. Plotted out in a spreadsheet it might be more revealing than what can be seen on the video by eye, but this is certainly good info. Oil pressure data to go with this would be even better.

So my question... What are you currently running for an oiling setup (sump, PCV, etc.)?

Thanks for sharing the info!

[Sgt.Gator]

No problem and thanks so much for supporting our products!

IMO a budget setup would run 3-stages, all scavenge, with the OEM oil pump. A high end setup would use 5-stages (4 scavenge, one pump) and not utilize the OEM pump. This setup would also use a sealed PCV and vacuum regulator to manage crankcase vacuum. I do not like any of the off the shelf dry setups as they are overpriced for what they are, and do not scavenge from the heads.

Let me know if anyone has any questions :)

How does a 3 stage, all scavenge, with OEM oil pump work? I'm trying to visualize the flow diagram and parts that would be needed and it's not clicking for me.

[Wayne Presley]

2 scavenge from oil pan, 1 scavenge for cam cover, all 3 sections feed the top of the oil tank
oil tank feeds OEM Subaru pump through port in dry sump pan
pump feeds oil filter then the rest of motor like normal.

[Sgt.Gator]

2 scavenge from oil pan, 1 scavenge for cam cover, all 3 sections feed the top of the oil tank
oil tank feeds OEM Subaru pump through port in dry sump pan
pump feeds oil filter then the rest of motor like normal.

Is there a hose or pipe inside the dry sump pan that connects from the incoming port directly to the oem pump? Who makes a setup like that?

[Wayne Presley]

The dry sump pan is thin so the pass through to where the pick up is usually bolted. The bottom of the oil tank feeds the pass through port on the dry sump.

[Boog]

If you had three scavenge stages, why would you go with 2 in the sump and 1 head instead of 1 in the sump and 1 in each head? I'm sure there is an obvious reason but its not coming to me.

[Sgt.Gator]

If you had three scavenge stages, why would you go with 2 in the sump and 1 head instead of 1 in the sump and 1 in each head? I'm sure there is an obvious reason but its not coming to me.

Me too.


The dry sump pan is thin so the pass through to where the pick up is usually bolted. The bottom of the oil tank feeds the pass through port on the dry sump.

Ok, now I see it in these ARE pics:
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I found these schematics on the ARE website, now i think I get it!
http://www.drysump.com/LS%20Plumbing%20Schematics.htm

[Scargo]

2 scavenge from oil pan, 1 scavenge for cam cover, all 3 sections feed the top of the oil tank
oil tank feeds OEM Subaru pump through port in dry sump pan
pump feeds oil filter then the rest of motor like normal.
This raises more questions than answers.:o
Does ARE offer an online installation guide? Pictures? I am assuming you have to do a little machining and create outlets at the bottom of each of the cam covers. Then these are T'd together and plumbed to the one scavenge pump?
Is the case closed off at various places to create a vacuum? Would seem like a waste if it's not.
Have you done a Daley setup (or other setups) and which works better/holds up better if price is not an object? THX

[Hobby Racer]

...Then these are T'd together and plumbed to the one scavenge pump? ...
That would be problematic when one head is filled with oil and the other is not (say a long high G sweeper turn). The pump would pull air from one head and not pull oil from the other. To ensure that both heads are drained in all situations you would need a separate scavenge stage for each head I would think.

[Scargo]

Not if the case has a positive vacuum on it and is not "vent to atmosphere" or VTA. This is normally the case as part of the attraction of a dry-sump setup. There is the performance boost you get from better ring sealing and a reduction in parasitic loss from oil surge and splash hitting moving parts.