Brake routing suggestions- Post your pics

[ehansen007]

I'm hoping to put together some pics of good brake line routing. The manual shows a lot of non-90degree bends and I'm wondering if we can use the stock lines and make it much more organized via 90degree bends (where Possible) and still have enough length.

[Mechie3]

You're going to have to buy/cut stuff anyways I think. My instructions called for a medium length section of which I only had long and two very short segments. I might have some pics in my build thread.

[Mechie3]

Finished my brake and clutch line routing this weekend. I tried to make it as clean and hidden as possible. It took a lot of time to do it this way and I had to buy two extra lengths of line and some couplers (partly because I wasted some line when I didn't like the bends). For a lot of these bends I used my homemade 1/2" radius tubing bender. Some of the bends are compound angle so they don't show up well in pics.

It doesn't look it in photos, but in real life from the angle you see everything you actually don't see a lot of things. I like the way it looks and was happy with the end result.

Brake MC goes to valve moutned between the two cylinders. Clutch line bends down immediately then goes in towards the wall.
http://i.imgur.com/xWmomu9.jpg?1

Hard to see, but the line off the bottom of the valve goes in to the firewall an dthen tucks underneath the outcropping sheet metal over to the end then up to the tee. I need to finishe mounting the tee. Clutch line goes to firewall, hides under the same outcropping, comes down, then hides along the seam near the steering knuckle.
http://i.imgur.com/j9LEKzD.jpg?1

It doesn't look very straight here, but it is. It follows the seam then bends down near the front control arm. I used several P clamps in this area to ensure it would never contact anything.
http://i.imgur.com/UG1omIg.jpg?1

Here it comes over the coolant hose and into the pass through. There's about 1/2" clearance minimum on all sides of the clutch hose (brake hose is on right).
http://i.imgur.com/bFPR2vo.jpg?1

Brake line on top, clutch line on bottom. Runs parallel to the frame way to the back of the car.
http://i.imgur.com/lg5JbfT.jpg?1


Brake line tucks into frame and goes out through rear firewall openings. Clutch line goes up next to the gas tank so I had room to add a coupling, then bends out into the engine bay area and continues up.
http://i.imgur.com/rbZrmkl.jpg?1


Top down view. you can just see the coupling on the left from the previous pic. It follows teh frame rail up, then follows the side rail to the rear. I did not run the clutch line under the manifold as FFR instructs.
http://i.imgur.com/hRRnZev.jpg?2

[Mechie3]

Lastly, there is a coupling at the removable rear cross brace, a short run of hard line, then the flex line. If the motor needs to be pulled, the coupling at the side of teh engine bay can be undone so that nothing blocks the removal of the motor.
http://i.imgur.com/Hq4Xbjp.jpg?1

[michael everson]

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s140/michaeleverson/DSC05743_zps691f28ea.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/michaeleverson/media/DSC05743_zps691f28ea.jpg.html)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s140/michaeleverson/DSC05750_zpsf7875f2d.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/michaeleverson/media/DSC05750_zpsf7875f2d.jpg.html)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s140/michaeleverson/DSC05751_zps76924de3.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/michaeleverson/media/DSC05751_zps76924de3.jpg.html)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s140/michaeleverson/DSC05753_zpse560fbba.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/michaeleverson/media/DSC05753_zpse560fbba.jpg.html)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s140/michaeleverson/DSC05754_zps6db520de.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/michaeleverson/media/DSC05754_zps6db520de.jpg.html)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s140/michaeleverson/DSC05774_zps040d6200.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/michaeleverson/media/DSC05774_zps040d6200.jpg.html)

[michael everson]

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s140/michaeleverson/DSC05775_zps6e8b5335.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/michaeleverson/media/DSC05775_zps6e8b5335.jpg.html)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s140/michaeleverson/DSC05782_zpsbd25d29f.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/michaeleverson/media/DSC05782_zpsbd25d29f.jpg.html)

[ehansen007]

Well done Mike and team, This will help alot of other folks out there. Thanks.

[AZPete]

Mechie, your line to the rear brakes goes into the opening in the firewall from the outside and your clutch line enters the opening from the inside. There is an aluminum panel #80171 that may cause a problem with your rear brake line on the outside of the opening. Here, I have only taped the panel in place until I finish my brake lines but I believe it's in the correct location.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/AZPeteCobra/80171-wheelwellpanel.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/AZPeteCobra/media/80171-wheelwellpanel.jpg.html)

[Mechie3]

Just one more thing I can change.... :/

It did always bother me how it wasn't perfectly vertical. Just have to live with a few holes in the firewall.

[itsymbal]

Mechie3:
Quick question... I see you are using removable fasteners to attach the brake lines instead of rivets. What kind are they? Did you tap a thread into the frame or are these thread-cutting?
Thanks

[Mechie3]

I used the P clamps and rivets in the FFR kit. Might be the lighting (or the fact that one p clamp isn't riveted yet) making it look removable.

[RM1SepEx]

It would be easy to use riv nuts. I'm using 10-24 screws and riv nuts in a bunch of paces to make parts removable. Buy a harbor freight tool and the riv nuts (nut serts) from mcmaster.com

[AZPete]

For those following, the manual says to route the hose to the clutch slave cylinder under the intake manifold. Like Mechie, I didn't like that because then the metal line would be shaken by the movements of the engine. I routed the OE clutch hose above the intake manifold and mounted the connector to the frame above the engine so the flexible line can flex and the metal line cannot.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/AZPeteCobra/clutchhosererouted.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/AZPeteCobra/media/clutchhosererouted.jpg.html)

[RM1SepEx]

For those following, the manual says to route the hose to the clutch slave cylinder under the intake manifold. Like Mechie, I didn't like that because then the metal line would be shaken by the movements of the engine. I routed the OE clutch hose above the intake manifold and mounted the connector to the frame above the engine so the flexible line can flex and the metal line cannot.

I did the same, however now that I had a possible remove the engine scare with my water pump issue I would mount the frame tabe on the frame to the left of the engine vs the removable shock tower brace like I did on mine... live and learn

23149

[Mechie3]

That's a long braided hose! Mine is only about 6" long, if that. Maybe I should find a longer one. That would prevent me from having to empty the system to pull the motor.

[RM1SepEx]

That's why it would be nice to yank the slave cylinder and pull the motor with no bleeding...

[Mechie3]

Yeah....don't route the brake hose to the outside near the control arm. The splash guard mounts right on top of it. Not of a fan of how many things have to fit through that small side opening. They certainly fit with clearance, just don't like how they can vibrate and bang against each other in an area that will be difficult to inspect.

[C.Plavan]

Hey Guys- Are we doing Double Flare or Double Bubble if we cut our own lines?

[68GT500MAN]

Chad, I have always used a double flare.
Doug

[Mechie3]

double flare as well.

[ehansen007]

Heres my routing. I only had to flare one line and I picked up a couple more lines of the appropriate length from Napa.

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/07434FB9-4212-43D3-97E3-F1705F480EE5-3782-0000045A23D990DE_zps8da1cfb0.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/ehansen007/media/07434FB9-4212-43D3-97E3-F1705F480EE5-3782-0000045A23D990DE_zps8da1cfb0.jpg.html)

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/BCA1C39E-A78E-45FA-B46E-7D771B3A8E22-3782-0000045A2BED59BA_zps3c59caf4.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/ehansen007/media/BCA1C39E-A78E-45FA-B46E-7D771B3A8E22-3782-0000045A2BED59BA_zps3c59caf4.jpg.html)

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/90B037E6-4C4C-4C62-AEE5-66A929E260E0-3782-00000459FC5E076E_zpse1c5f71f.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/ehansen007/media/90B037E6-4C4C-4C62-AEE5-66A929E260E0-3782-00000459FC5E076E_zpse1c5f71f.jpg.html)

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/C0C1D258-7B48-4570-84AF-5416AD038696-4846-000005AB0F1750E1_zps8f665209.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/ehansen007/media/C0C1D258-7B48-4570-84AF-5416AD038696-4846-000005AB0F1750E1_zps8f665209.jpg.html)

[Canadian818]

Now that you guys are almost finished your builds, did you have to change anything? Is there anything you would do differently?

[metros]

I'm starting to look at routing and wanted to bump this thread up and ask the same question as Canadian.

Now that some of you have had the engine in and back out, would you route the brake lines differently the second time around?

[CU9DZ]

For anyone with a running complete car or anyone who has test fitted the windshield how am I supposed to put fluid in the brake master cylinder and clutch once the windshield and dash are in ??? Looks like poor design work from FFR.
Dave

[idf]

For anyone with a running complete car or anyone who has test fitted the windshield how am I supposed to put fluid in the brake master cylinder and clutch once the windshield and dash are in ??? Looks like poor design work from FFR.
Dave

Check out Mike Everson's solution (Replicaparts.com). I visited his shop yesterday and picked up his clutch plumbing kit. I ordered his brake reservoir kit, coolant tubes and exhaust this morning. He is a real nice guy whose engineering and fabrication are excellent.

[metalmaker12]

I changed my rear lines to nickel copper. Than I ran hydraulic lines from the front to the back lines. It was much easier than the solid lines I had. I ran them like Mike E .

[Scargo]

I changed my rear lines to nickel copper. Than I ran hydraulic lines from the front to the back lines. It was much easier than the solid lines I had. I ran them like Mike E .
Not to say that I am an authority but I thought that you changed out regular brake hoses for SS braided, teflon-lined high performance brake hoses because the regular brake hoses would swell and absorb some of the pressure by way of swelling. If this is true, haven't you just increased that (potential issue) by many times?

[metalmaker12]

The fronts are still the steel solid lines to the stainless Teflon lines to brakes. The middle lines are a newer style nylon/Teflon line. I put new solid nickel copper rear lines to connect the rears. I have SS Teflon from those to rears.The lines I put in the middle are a Teflon reinforced line and used in many racing applications, it is just a test run to see if they perform as they are advertised. I have received great feedback from fellow car builders on there performance. Thanks for the input as I too am interested in there ability. If they are what there said to be, they would be a much better way to install lines in the 818.

[dougkirkbride]

i am not there yet, but i thought i saw a picture somewhere of the shroud cut for access to the reservior. I am hoping to go this route, i thought i was finally done with the brake lines but maybe i havent redone them enough yet :)

[CU9DZ]

I saw the remote tank for the reservoir and also the cut out of the windshield shroud. Don't know which option I will use yet for access to the clutch and brake tanks. I just started the front section of the clutch lines like Mechie3 did. Going to route the back lines to the clutch along the side and put a removable section on the strut bar. Don't like going over the engine with the line.
Thanks for the help.
Dave

[nkw8181]

If you wanted to go with metric fittings what size would you need to fit the lines from ffr? It may be a stupid question but I had to ask

[Harley818]

I've seen it noted a few times in some build threads but you could buy a 10mm fitting that can accommodate 3/16 in. lines..... provided you are prepared to cut and flare the tubing.

I'm planning to use 10mm fittings and lines to come off the master cylinder, then adapt to 3/16 fittings further along in the line where it won't be seen so readily. I don't like the look of the FFR adapters, or the extra height that they add.
Then I'll convert back to 10mm at the brake flex lines using the pink fittings provided by FFR.

[svanlare]

I placed my orders with FedHill last week for 10x1 metric fittings and I'm using the eastman tool to flare the tubes. I bought some additional 3/16 line so hopefully I don't need too many couplers. Since at the moment all the routing is in my head, I have to report back in a couple weeks how it all went.

[Jaime]

BTW, any decent auto parts store will have the fittings in stock.

[Goldwing]

BTW, any decent auto parts store will have the fittings in stock.

Agreed, Advance Auto had them when I needed them. The hardest part was remembering to put the little buggers on the Brake line BEFORE flaring them!

[AZPete]

Along with the 10x1 metric fittings get some coat hangers. An old trick is to bend the coat hanger wire as a template first, then bend the brake tubing to match the wire piece. And, 2 sockets screwed to a board make a good bending tool. Bigger socket = bigger radius. Eastwood flaring tool is worth the money.

[Harley818]

Finally got to my brake and clutch lines......

I wanted to keep everything out of the way of the central access triangle in the front of the 818, so I located the proportional valve between the clutch and brake master cylinders.
35886358873588835889


Then I ran down to the bottom access way on the drivers side, and along the side frame rail to the back.
358903589135892

I split the lines right behind the firewall, ran back to the crossmember under the engine where I terminated the clutch line, and ran one brake line to the opposite side.

358943589535896

Just need to finish off the tie-downs now

[Hindsight]

Nice bends. Did you do by hand or with bending pliers?

[AZPete]

Harley, you have the rear brake line and clutch line entering the front firewall opening on the outside but there is an aluminum panel that mounts along the outside edge of the front firewall. If you remount the lines coming into the opening from the inside, just above the lower control arm, you'll avoid a headache later.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/AZPeteCobra/80171-wheelwellpanel.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/AZPeteCobra/media/80171-wheelwellpanel.jpg.html)

Edit: DON'T mount your flexible brake line to the caliper like this photo. I had to move it later because it conflicts with an aluminum panel.

[AZPete]

Here's another tip I should post in this thread about where to mount the tabs for the front flexible brake lines:

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/AZPeteCobra/frontbraketabs.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/AZPeteCobra/media/frontbraketabs.jpg.html)

[Harley818]

Hindsight, I used a tubing bender I bought from Harbour Freight. works great. I also used a hint from AZPete to just bend it around a suitable sized socket. Both methods worked well.

[Harley818]

Hindsight, here is a picture of the tubing bender. I think it was about $10 or so. This provided really tight predictable bends. Bending around a socket helped for bends that were approximate or larger diameter.
3591435915

[Harley818]

Here's a better picture of my master cylinders and proportional valve set up.
my goal was to keep it out of the way as much as possible.
36095

[Samiam1017]

whats the best routing of the parking brake lines? and im sure this was asked before but I cant seem to find an explaination to why the proportioning valve is used on he front brakes

[wleehendrick]

Samiam,

Do you mean the rear brake lines or the parking/e brake cables? The prop valve goes on the front lines beacause on the 818, the weight distribution has been shifted rearward greatly. The stock brake setup was biased for a front heavy Subaru. The 818 needs more brakes on the rear. Ideally you would upsize the rear rotors to be balance mechanically, but the bpv will help the stock rear brakes do a little more.

[metros]

Wish I had used a smaller sized tubing bender. My bends are all much longer than what you've posted.

Working on finishing up the front end today.

[Samiam1017]

Ya I mean the brake cables not the hydraulic lines. I think I like Bob's idea of the legacy rear rotors. I got a pair of 5x100 still rear rotors to try something out but the parking brake hub size is quite a bit larger and I haven't had time to see what else is needed to make them work.

[wleehendrick]

I havn't run my brake cables yet, but there doesnt seem to be more than one way... From the handle, over the fuel tank, split them around the motor and along each trailing arm. Any other details?

[Samiam1017]

I built a rear firewall. so I guess im asking a general location where they would pass thru. woulda been smarter to figure that out before I put he firewall in and motor..

[metros]

^I also put up a firewall. I made cut outs dead center and on each side to allow pass through for wiring/lines/etc.

[Harley818]

I just ran the brake cables along the trailing link and through the firewall where the link connects.
I wanted to be able to remove the firewall in the future without taking out alot of connections, wires, etc.
The center insulated part of the firewall is removable, the outer portions will be rivetted and covered with insulation.........or I may leave the go-faster cleco's like Bob & Cincy.

Here's two pics, and there are more in my build thread.
3645036451

[Scargo]

Are there one or two radii that you commonly bend to? Like 1"R or 1-1/2"R? I want to buy cheap 3/16" diameter wire pulleys. 1-1/2" to 3-1/2" diameters are readily available or I might turn my own...

[Harley818]

Scargo, just use a 20, 21mm (or whatever larger size you want) socket. Mine bent really easily around those just holding them in my hand.
I also bought a tubing bender that worked just as well, but not as fast.

[Scargo]

Thanks Harley. With my 22 impact socket that works out to a 5/8" inside radius. Seems tight, but what do I know? I guess you don't want it sticking out too much and flopping in the breeze... vibrating. Does it have much spring-back?

[Harley818]

No not much springback, and the brake lines from FFR actually bend pretty easily.

[Scargo]

Thanks Harley. I've got some 2" aluminum I can make a bending mandrel from. As I said on my build thread I just bought a bunch of stuff... I ordered SS hard tubing for brake lines, 10 mm male inverted flare nuts (no bas*tard mix of SAE and Metric/Subaru fittings for me), SS braided, PTFE-lined hose for the Tilton reservoirs to Tilton master cylinders and adapters from -3 AN to female 10mm inverted flare. I guess I will use the Wilwood proportioning valve but I'll have to cut off a couple of SAE nuts from the provided FFR lines to adapt it. :(
Whew! Figuring all that out took a lot of time and investigating. Tilton didn't make it any easier. The Tilton reservoir to pedal box cylinders uses -4 AN fittings and exits on the pressure end with -3 AN female. Finding the transition fittings to metric took time. Terminology or naming also slowed me down. Just learned that JIC and AN are the same except for tighter thread tolerances for real AN. Seems most stuff called "AN" is really JIC grade.
10 x 1.0 MM is the normal Japanese brake thread size (can you say Subaru?) and also what's on my Stoptechs. I wished FFR would ditch the US standard/SAE adapters and fully base the kit on the Subaru compatible parts and Metric. They had to include a couple of metric bolts for the suspension. Why the mix and adapters?

[Harley818]

I agree.
If they are building a world car, then it should be based on the same fasteners as the donor.
I bought a few 10mm x 3/16 brake line connectors to make it easy.
Using SS hard tubing i can see why you want to bend to a larger diameter.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

where ever I needed metric I used these.
http://store.fedhillusa.com/22nutpack.aspx

edit: Pack of 12 for 16.20 ($1.35 ea)

[Scargo]

I have been all over Fedhill's site and couldn't find a couple of things. I was buying stuff on Summit's site and found Dorman's for 1/3 less (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RNB-490-711). I also found an Earl's adapter for my Tilton master cylinders. (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-989545ERL) Still can't find the Tees, except in the UK.*
Harley, by "hard" I meant hard brake lines (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-220236) versus the flexible ones at the wheels or the flexible, high-pressure line that one of the guys here ran from front to back. Reviews of the SS line (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-220236) on Summit's site were interesting. A couple said it was difficult to use/hard to do a double flare while others said it was easy to use "with the right flaring tools". So, to be different and make life more difficult and take the road less traveled, I went for it.

* Yay! Perseverance! http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/universal-brake-line-tees.html (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/universal-brake-line-tees.html)Universal Brake Line Tees, Female 10mmx1.0 Inverted - Brass

[Scargo]

Received the T's from of all places, Low Range Off-Road (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/). They seem well-made and have the mounting hole.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40762&d=1429469698&thumb=1 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40762&d=1429469698)
Plated brass, they get me closer to my goal of all Metric, double-flares like the Subaru has.

[JeffS]

41679

41680

41681


Plastic clips are from McMaster. The ABS mounting bracket was trimmed and formed from the donor bracket.

Jeff

[Bob_n_Cincy]

41679 41680 41681
Plastic clips are from McMaster. The ABS mounting bracket was trimmed and formed from the donor bracket.
Jeff

Jeff
Great NEAT job mounting all the abs lines.
Would you like to come over an redo mine.

I hate to ask this question.
Do you think the ABS will bleed properly with it mounted sideways?
I hope it will for your sake.
Bob

[JeffS]

Hi Bob:

I mounted the ABS module in the exact same orientation as it came out of my 2006 WRX donor. So hopefully I won't have too much trouble.

Jeff

[JeffS]

Bob:

I just went back and looked at the manual.... maybe I didn't mount it as it came out. I guess we will have to wait and see how bleeding goes.....

Thanks for the heads-up... Jeff

[Scargo]

Let me ask a newbie-like ABS brake system question:
It has been my understanding that with ABS a proportioning valve was not workable. Perhaps there IS a configuration where it will work in harmony with the ABS valve body and electronics. Perhaps it's just that I don't understand the fluid dynamics and how it all works. I thought the two braking systems (within ABS system) were cris-crossed. I guess you could plumb the ABS valve to be front and rear but how would the computer see this and how would it react?

I wanted to have bias adjustability on my '08 STi track car. I have a 14" BBK on the front and sometimes the rear wants to waggle a bit. Looking into it I deemed I could not add a biasing valve. Please educate me if I'm wrong.

That is the best looking brake line installation I have ever seen. Nice work. A high bar! Thanks for the tip on the McMaster-Carr clips. (http://www.mcmaster.com/#2216t12/=x1pnem)

[Hindsight]

It will work. You just need to use two prop valves instead of one. You use one valve for the front left and one for the front right.

[Scargo]

Please clarify where they go. Right after the master cylinder?
I am having trouble seeing all of Jeff's routing in the three photos. It appears Jeff is using only one. I need a schematic...

[Hindsight]

You put it between the ABS unit and the line that goes to the front wheel caliper. The ABS pump has 6 ports: Two in, and four out. The out ports provide one port per wheel. So for the two front wheels, you just splice a single valve into each line.

I think where you are getting confused is in the whole bit about the front left being "tied" to the right rear and front right being tied to the left rear. My understanding is that this is all handled internally in the ABS pump. So inside the pump, when the pump pulses one of the wheels, it actually has to pulse two of the wheels (front left + right rear, etc), even though it has a single brake line going to each.

At least, that is my understanding.

[Scargo]

Thanks. That makes sense. At the last opportunity you insert a proportioning valve into each front brake line and it just affects the front brakes, yet they are still acting in concert with the ABS modulation, but perhaps with a more damped effect. Of course! :o
I must get busy!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Scargo,
The oem Subaru has a non adjustable dual proportional valve in the back wheels.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41701&d=1380519085

You just need to put 2 adjustable Prop-valves in the front wheels and remove the oem unit from the back wheels.

If you are upgrading the rear brakes. You may not want the valves in the front.
I am running no proportional valves righty now with my double size rear calipers. I like it.
Bob

[bbjones121]

Scargo,
The oem Subaru has a non adjustable dual proportional valve in the back wheels.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41701&d=1380519085

You just need to put 2 adjustable Prop-valves in the front wheels and remove the oem unit from the back wheels.

If you are upgrading the rear brakes. You may not want the valves in the front.
I am running no proportional valves righty now with my double size rear calipers. I like it.
Bob

Isnt it adjustable? I think it is just an allen wrench. I hope it is, i was just going to use that instead of purchasing another wilwood.

[Scargo]

I'd like to know who's put proportioning valves on each of the front brakes? While this discussion seems to be getting off topic I don't know what to do about it.
In my research I see that we have discussed this before (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13543-ABS-amp-Proportioning-Valve-Question) and I don't know if there was resolution with any certainty. I posted this Stoptech link about proportioning valves (http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/proportioning-valves) in that discussion. In it, it says don't do proportioning valves in series and to not put them on the front!
And a different discussion about retaining/using ABS in the 818 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?9650-Keep-the-ABS-brakes-on-the-818R).

[bbjones121]

41679

41680

41681


Plastic clips are from McMaster. The ABS mounting bracket was trimmed and formed from the donor bracket.

Jeff

Nice job Jeff! I kept a bunch of those plastic OEM clips also to use like you did, now i just need to find them.

I was going to mount it in the same location that you have, but I am trying to figure out how the vintage air heater/AC unit is going to route. I hope it doesn't get in the way.

[bbjones121]

I'd like to know who's put proportioning valves on each of the front brakes? While this discussion seems to be getting off topic I don't know what to do about it.
In my research I see that we have discussed this before (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13543-ABS-amp-Proportioning-Valve-Question) and I don't know if there was resolution with any certainty. I posted this Stoptech link about proportioning valves (http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/proportioning-valves) in that discussion. In it, it says don't do proportioning valves in series and to not put them on the front!
And a different discussion about retaining/using ABS in the 818 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?9650-Keep-the-ABS-brakes-on-the-818R).

No discussions outside of these forums on manufacturers websites will have much that relates to an 1800lb mid engine car. And factory five has confirmed the proportional valve for the front. They obviously must have taken the car in a parking lot and went through a bunch of tires. I am guessing without it, there is little to no braking being done by the rear and it severely unbalanced

[TouchStone]

The problem I see with using 2 proportioning valves, one for each of the front brakes, is how do you expect to keep the left and right braking power exactly the same? Subaru routed the ABS brake lines FL/RR and FR/RL as safety so if you lost brake pressure in one of your brake lines (primary or secondary) you would still have braking power to one front and one right wheel. As this is not critical we do not need to follow the markings on the abs module exactly.

You can use a single prop valve on one of the ABS inlets and routing the 2 outlets for that inlet to the front brakes. You will have to change the abs sensor wires accordingly. This way you can use a single prop valve for the front and maintain full functionality of the abs module.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7763/17385581672_26b43db50e_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/suiDJ9)



So inside the pump, when the pump pulses one of the wheels, it actually has to pulse two of the wheels (front left + right rear, etc), even though it has a single brake line going to each. .

Not true, each outlet has its own control solenoid.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi touchstone,
I agree with your diagram above. One of my cars is plumbed that way, but no PV.
Do you think the abs algorithms are the same for front vs rear wheels?
Bob

[TouchStone]

Hi touchstone,
I agree with your diagram above. One of my cars is plumbed that way, but no PV.
Do you think the abs algorithms are the same for front vs rear wheels?
Bob

I don't really know, if its different that diagram may not be 100% effective. This statement from the manual has given me some doubts:

41709​<--Picture (click to zoom)

[bbjones121]

You go to a parking lot with crappy tires a lock them up with abs off. You should be able to dial in the two adjustments, Subaru is able to do it with the rear. That is why I believe the OEM rear proportional valve is adjustable.

[JeffS]

My system is plumbed exactly as TouchStone's diagram in post #75 with swapped ports and swapped sensor inputs to match.

I had a long conversation with Wayne Prestley at last year's open house about this very subject and he assured me that one prop valve (in the front) and swapped ports works fine and is the way to go. My brakes are 2006 WRX donor front and back so they definitely need proportioning to keep the fronts from premature lock-up.

Wayne is a strong proponent of ABS, and has way more practical experience building cars with ABS than anyone else I could find, so that's what I went with.

[bbjones121]

oem is definitely not adjustable.

[Junty]

Hey team,
Ive also discussed with Wayne (early last year) and my 2004 donor ABS system is working fantastically in my 818S RHD (by swapping the routing as touchstone detailed above). Only exception for me is I have not used any proportion valves anywhere. Some of us have previously discussed in another braking thread - many mid/rear engine sports cars, have the same big callipers and disks on rear as front. My theory was that we will always need more rear axle braking than the standard 2 pot callipers. Due to my lack of including any proportioning valve - I could have easily used the standard subaru routing - however if one of either circuit from the master cylinder was to ever fail - I personally would prefer to retain either both front or both rear as the second backup emergency stop circuit. With standard subaru 4x4 the LF RR versus RF LR might be more balanced, however my own inexperienced knowledge expects that the standard subaru layout will undoubtedly result is uncontrollable 360 spins if heavy braking was required with only one circuit working?
I still intend to add larger rear disks and add 4 pot WRX front callipers to the rear of my 818 to improve the braking performance overall - still no proportioning valve!

[Scargo]

Couldn't there be a difference in one year/model vs another in how the ABS system is designed to operate? How far back does EBD go? If appropriate, I wonder if it would be helpful to this discussion if comments and results were put in the context of what year/model is being used/discussed with you system or someone clear the air about what is common to all GD WRX's, GD STi's, etc.
As an example, my GR STi's ABS still works great with all the stability control inputs disconnected. I have no idea if the G sensor is active. It seems perfectly happy standing alone (if it is).
It sounds as if Bob has a functioning ABS without the PV. Is that because of the electronics? Do all or only some have the rear lift activated proportioning valve? I don't think my GR has any rear proportioning valve.
What about what Stoptech says? Their warning about mixing proportioners?
What happens when you, like I do in my STi, are pushing the limits of the (modified) braking system at 145?
I'm not starting with ABS on my 818R. Stoptech engineers designed the brake system for my 818R and I am using a Tilton unit with bias bar.
Then again, after seeing my friend ruin his tires this past weekend without ABS I am having second thoughts. I don't like contemplating multiple sets of tires and rain tires. I don't even have a second set of slicks for my STi (though I'm looking).

"however my own inexperienced knowledge expects that the standard subaru layout will undoubtedly result is uncontrollable 360 spins if heavy braking was required with only one circuit working?"

You need to have something to initiate the spin. Just having two wheels braking at opposite corners of the car should not do that. Oversteer, a slick spot, etc. could get the car rotating and no braking system could stop it adequately. As I told my friend who flat-spotted his tires, the ABS does not do anything if you are sliding sideways.

[C.Plavan]

My .02 cents.
1. I have the proportioning valve in use like FFR suggested, but I made it so I could adjust from the cockpit.
2. I have the 4 pot Wilwood caliper/rotor upgrades on all for corners (Don't waste your money on the 6 pot brakes).
3. I do not have ABS, nor do I want it. 200+ track miles and no flat spots on any of the tires.
4. I have great "feel" under braking, and you know if you are about to lockup. (locked up the fronts once at a start of a race in the first corner)
5. I have not noticed any ill braking issues once I upgraded to racing pads.
6. I have not noted anything different in braking than other cars I have raced.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

My .02 cents.
1. I have the proportioning valve in use like FFR suggested, but I made it so I could adjust from the cockpit.
2. I have the 4 pot Wilwood caliper/rotor upgrades on all for corners (Don't waste your money on the 6 pot brakes).
3. I do no have ABS, nor do I want it. 200+ track miles and no flat spots on any of the tires.
4. I have great "feel" under braking, and you know if you are about to lockup. (locked up the fronts once at a start of a race in the first corner)
5. I have not noticed any ill braking issues once I upgraded to racing pads.
6. I have not noted anything different in braking than other cars I have raced.

Great info Chad, as usual.
Are your 4 pot Wilwood all the same piston diameters?
Bob

[C.Plavan]

Front caliper specs-
http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperProd.aspx?itemno=120-7378-RD

Rear caliper specs-
http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperProd.aspx?itemno=120-9706-RD

[Jaime]

Assuming that the Subaru master cylinder pistons are equal for the front and rear circuits (I think they are), those brakes give you a 71% front/29% rear braking distribution. That's pretty close to how the weight would be distributed on hard braking.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Front caliper specs-
http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperProd.aspx?itemno=120-7378-RD

Rear caliper specs-
http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperProd.aspx?itemno=120-9706-RD

Chad
Your brakes "Total piston area" 4.12F and 1.58R is similar to a stock WRX.
You Like it, don't change a thing.

I am running 4.46F and 4.46R with no PV.
I like it,
BUT
I have not test brakes over 80 mph.

I'll see if I can get some video of some high speed hard stops this weekend.
Bob

[Samiam1017]

bob what rear rotors are you running to use the front calipers or are you putting a shim between the pad and calipers

[TouchStone]

When I started my build there wasn't a good answer "for or against" having ABS on the 818. So I decided to included the ABS module because if I don't like it then I can disable it easily by unplugging the connector.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

bob what rear rotors are you running to use the front calipers or are you putting a shim between the pad and calipers

Samiam
I am running the CENTRIC Part # 12147025 rotors. They are 17.9 mm thick. My outside pad has a double thick backing plate welded together.
More info here http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12534-MRG-MotorSports-818S-Build&p=173658&viewfull=1#post173658

Bob

[Hindsight]

Do we have anyone with a working and tested ABS setup?

[AZPete]

In Post #81 above, Junty says, "my 2004 donor ABS system is working fantastically in my 818S RHD."

[Junty]

Hey Team, reiterating my post above. Yes my ABS system is working and fully functional. Ive tested braking from about 65m/hr,(100km/hr) with both the ABS system active and earlier in the build deactivated. If I had a track car (R) I might have skipped the ABS, but I have a street RHD 818 with a 2012 2.5L engine running Motec ECU - base tune with mere 12 PSI boost the car has 247Kw at rear wheels. So it goes very quick, and unlike the usual high quality tarmac on the track, street driving includes many unseen and unknown parameters (oil spills, pot holes, lose metal on the road, and cars and trucks traveling in opposing directions etc etc) so I'm very happy to have a great ABS setup working well.
With JDM engines and a little more than the standard HP - ABS certainly is essential for any street 818.

[AZPete]

Yippee, my ABS works! I just got back from a run around my 'hood and tried several hard stops from 60 mph. The ABS is definitely working and I could feel the system pulsating without skidding. It stops amazingly quick and straight with no pull. The two proportioning valves on the front brake lines are set full open. I know the fronts are gripping evenly but couldn't tell if the rears are gripping, but they aren't locking up. I'll try disabling the ABS and then do hard stops on pavement and then dirt roads to see what the rears are doing. But, I'm thrilled that the ABS is working!

[bbjones121]

Yippee, my ABS works! I just got back from a run around my 'hood and tried several hard stops from 60 mph. The ABS is definitely working and I could feel the system pulsating without skidding. It stops amazingly quick and straight with no pull. The two proportioning valves on the front brake lines are set full open. I know the fronts are gripping evenly but couldn't tell if the rears are gripping, but they aren't locking up. I'll try disabling the ABS and then do hard stops on pavement and then dirt roads to see what the rears are doing. But, I'm thrilled that the ABS is working!

Awesome! Congrats. I am running my lines now.

[Junty]

Congrats AZPete. Just like you it was a great relief and I'm very happy the concept and system works. Light weight cars for obvious reasons accelerate well - I'm very pleased that this same logic transfers to them stopping very well also.

[Hindsight]

I don't really know, if its different that diagram may not be 100% effective. This statement from the manual has given me some doubts:

41709​<--Picture (click to zoom)

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of switching the output lines and ABS sensors to have just one line from the master controlling both front wheel cylinders (as Wayne has also suggested). But in reading that bit you posted from the manual that I quoted here, it seems like maybe that option may not work because of the different algorithms for front vs rear no?

[Junty]

Hey Hindsight,
Im certainly not a brake/ABS expert. So I looked at alternative systems, and I consulted experts such as Wayne. Then using the best advice and logic, I applied what I perceived to be the best option and system setup for my 818.
It is a fact that the Subaru ABS system is a 4 channel independent on all 4 corner system - so regardless of how it is setup, the brake pressure is independently regulated by the ABS system to each wheel - directly dependant upon which single one is changing rotational speed in relationship to the 3 others and the G force sensor. I have never received any conclusive advice that I am confident in relating to proportioning valves either before or after the ABS control unit? I therefore elected to setup as Wayne suggested with any valves - if I ever wanted to change back to the Subaru system, this is relatively easy (as I merely need to move the brake lines about 1 inch left to right at the control unit, and move the wires).
And in conclusion, the system works very well. I merely want more brake effect in the medium term, simply by increasing the callipers and rotors on the rear. This is m personal perspective and will prove itself or be reverted back upon testing - the ABS however will remain as is working very well...

[Chef818]

For the ABS users did you use the factory rear proportioning valve?

[bbjones121]

For the ABS users did you use the factory rear proportioning valve?
No I did not. It is not adjustable. I bought another willwood proportional valve and have both of them on my front. I don't know if it is absolutely necessary since the ABS system will try to prevent lockup on its own.

[DMC7492]

Hi guys here a link to the abs updates
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15282-Any-ABS-updates-Anyone-have-it-working

[phil1734]

No I did not. It is not adjustable. I bought another willwood proportional valve and have both of them on my front. I don't know if it is absolutely necessary since the ABS system will try to prevent lockup on its own.

You would still need one to maximize performance.

Unless you are running a high-end aftermarket system, I believe the Subaru ABS system from the donors is a simple on/off circuit. It'll prevent lock-up, but won't do anything to adjust line pressure front to rear. You could easily have the fronts locking/unlocking with abs and only a fraction of the pressure in the rear line needed to extract any use from the rear brakes.