VAG VR6 engine + tranny viable?

[Speedy G]

Hey guys,

I'm really interested in the viability of putting in a VR6/2.0T engine in an 818. It's not a VAG vs Subie thing, but rather because I can't get subie parts where I live. I'm sure the subie engine is lower and lighter, but if the VAG fits, it could be a viable alternative. I also have experience with VAG engines so it's easier for me to understand them. One cool thing about VAG engines is that the exhaust exists out the back in front wheel drive cars so routing is easier than on a Honda for example. A turbo could also be added in the back for extremely easy access (loose bolts?).

The first question is whether the engine fits. We need the engine bay dimensions for this. Can anyone help out by measuring the width and height? The engine depth might also be critical. If someone could measure how much distance there is between an axle and the firewall on the 818, we could compare to what the VR6 engine needs (distance between the axel and the front-most part of the VR6 engine).

My drivetrain idea is as follows:

3.2L VR6 from Eurospec (http://eurospecsport.com/products/engines/performance-engines.htm) with a 6 speed manual (also from them)
lugtronic (http://lugtronic.com/) or other standalone


Thanks guys,

Speedy G

[Frank818]

Yes the exhaust exit is straight in the middle towards the rear, that's easy.

I'll take a look at mine this w-e and see what measurements I can get.

[wleehendrick]

because I can't get subie parts where I live.

There's a lot more than just the drivetrain you need out out a Subaru. Take a look at the "what you need list" here:

https://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/what-you-need/

If it's true that you can't source Subaru parts, then you have a lot of fabrication to adapt other pieces to make a complete 818.

[Speedy G]

True. The only really worrisome stuff are the brake system, spindles and suspension parts which I'd get new anyway. The wheelbase is similar to a Golf (.1 inch difference), so maybe even the axles and spindles can be used from a Golf. I'm sure the suspension geometry would be totally different though, so who knows. I'm sure we can fabricate something to make it work. Remember labor is cheap down here.

[Turboguy]

Are you sure you can't get Subie parts there?

Here is the contact info for Subaru of Columbia:

Subaru de Colombia S.A.
Address: Carrera 19 No. 66-45, Santafe de Bogota, D.C.
Phone: +57 1 3481755
Fax: +57 1 2170427

[longislandwrx]

I'm sure there are enough resources on this forum and others to get you what you need. Shipping might not be too bad with international flat rate... most of the needed parts are not too big (minus the steering column)

My sisters ex boyfriend is from Colombia and ships there all the time. There's got to be a dealership that can help you with the rest.

Subaru of Colombia's site lists Bogata, Medellin, Cali, Manizalez, Pereira and Barranquilla but doesn't have phone numbers.

https://www.facebook.com/SubaruColombia

33k likes, there has to be somewhat of a Subaru following.

[Speedy G]

Oh, I can subie parts, but new and very expensive. Getting a suitable donor is what's impossible. Also, I thought about a VR6 to get a 6 cyl engine in there. The H6 sounds like an option, but again it would have to be new and very expensive. The H6 isn't sold here so there's the added issue of importing it myself. A VR6 I can get much cheaper, even from the dealer, since we import them from México with much lower taxes. Also it would be possible to find a donor VR6 locally.

In any case, please, please, please, those of you that already have a chasis, please post the engine bay dimensions.

[wleehendrick]

Oh, I can subie parts, but new and very expensive. Getting a suitable donor is what's impossible.

Assuming you can ship an 818 kit shipped to Columbia, why not consider a donor pallet from AJW or Wayne? Sure it's a bit more money, but probably far less hassle in the long run that trying to adapt a VR6.

[StatGSR]

I'm gunna be "that guy"

have you looked at the Smyth Performance G3F? Seeing how its a Jetta based car, it seems like the logical choice for a pro VW builder. granted, its not really finished or released yet, which is a little problematic from a planning perspective...

[longislandwrx]

21649

[Speedy G]

Assuming you can ship an 818 kit shipped to Columbia, why not consider a donor pallet from AJW or Wayne? Sure it's a bit more money, but probably far less hassle in the long run that trying to adapt a VR6.

I wish... Legally, it's only possible to import new parts or vehicles, no second hand stuff. Importing a kit is not an issue although it must be registered at the DMV at the max 1 year after the import. That means I have to build it in less than a year.

[Speedy G]

I'm gunna be "that guy"

have you looked at the Smyth Performance G3F? Seeing how its a Jetta based car, it seems like the logical choice for a pro VW builder. granted, its not really finished or released yet, which is a little problematic from a planning perspective...

If I can't get a decent deal on the 818 with a VR6 I'll get an FFR '33 hot rod with a supercharged ford coyote engine. I like the 818 looks, not so much the G3f.

[Frank818]

MEASURES HAVE CHANGED! SEE POST #27.

Some measurements of the VR6, I may have more precise numbers around Oct 11th, if I do I will edit this post.

- Distance from bottom of OEM oil pan to top of the OEM cam cover (OEM intake manifold removed as I use a log type manifold): ~28.6875in (72.8cm);
- Distance from side cover of the EuroSpecSport 6-sp tranny (left side of car) to the engine pulleys (right side of car): ~33-34in (83.8-86.4cm). This one is harder to measure;
- Distance from axles (basically the firewall as the the axles are about right under the firewall) to the front most part of the engine (alternator): ~31in (78.7cm).

The other problem is that with this setup you are shifting weight towards the middle of the car, as the tranny sits transversally and not longitudinally. Not sure of the handling effects of this?

[Turboguy]

SO- what happens to cars after they have accidents in your country? You can't get a written off WRX or buy the parts from a wrecker?

[Speedy G]

You can't import used parts or used cars. Dealers have a monopoly on new manufacturer parts and they're expensive. You can find used parts locally via the web or if you're lucky your mechanic knows of a wreck that's selling in parts. There's also a black market, but I wouldn't go there.

Thanks for the dimensions Frank818!!! Now all we need is someone with an 818 chassis that could measure the dimensions of the 818 engine bay. Please, anybody?

[Frank818]

Now all we need is someone with an 818 chassis that could measure the dimensions of the 818 engine bay. Please, anybody?

Maybe we could ask on another thread or a build thread for someone to come here. I'm sure when people read the thread title they don't know a non-VR6 (818 dimensions) question is asked and if they are not interested in fitting a VR6 they won't read the 818 question. :)

[Mechie3]

Nah, it just takes some time. ;)

http://i.imgur.com/XDf9Yl3.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/OoNtN16.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/e0q6pi8.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7mCm2G2.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/R5mfHKL.jpg

[Mechie3]

http://i.imgur.com/NS30OJw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Zi4x5bg.jpg

[Frank818]

Lolll :D I got proven wrong in 14mins. :)
Tnx Mechie :)


Hummm, don't think there's enough height. Or maybe I read at the wrong place.

[Mechie3]

Height is 24" to the triangular brace, but depending on where the motor actually sits, the brace doesn't cover the entire engine bay. The first and second pics show you you where the ends of the braces are so you can draw a picture and see if the motor will fit.

[Speedy G]

Thanks Mechie!

It looks like the depth is the killer by 10 inches, which is really surprising. Height might be ok depending on the placement of the motor mounts.

[RM1SepEx]

actually, you will be dumping the motor mounts and making your own and the cross bar is removable. I'd expect that you could easily modify the brace connecting the two shock towers.

Hell it is a kit car after all! The space for the engine is pretty big, the boxer is a very wide engine, the VR6 used transverse is much more compact. You might need to modify the engine cover area too...

[Frank818]

By removing the crossbar, what else are you removing? Chassis strength/torsion?

[Frank818]

Speedy G, what's your next step?
Do you need more measurements, more accuracy on those I provided or you have enough info to brainstorm on the viability or go no-go on your end?

[Speedy G]

I'm not sure... The last thing I wanted to do was redesign the rear subframe, and the difference in depth seems pretty big. I'm gonna give it some thought. Are you sure the VR6 is that deep (axle to alternator)?

Speedy G

[Frank818]

I can measure that with the car up on a lift, I must admit it's really not easy to measure from top of the engine, but if I use the firewall as a guide (and the axles are extremely close to the fw), that's the number. Oct 11th is the date for that.

[Frank818]

Hey Speedy, I am updating my measurements. The lenght from axle is MUCH less than 1st measure.

- Distance from bottom of OEM oil pan to top of the OEM cam cover (OEM intake manifold removed as I use a log type manifold): ~25.5-26in (64.65cm);
- Distance from side cover of the EuroSpecSport 6-sp tranny (left side of car) to the engine pulleys (right side of car): 36in (90cm);
- Distance from middle of axles to the front most part of the engine (alternator and manifold): ~20.5in (51.25cm).

[killerrudy]

This, if possible, would be an awesome engine setup. Making an adapter plate from the VW engine to the subi trans wouldn't be an issue. Seems like there isn't enough fwd(block) area for it to fit easily. If it wasn't to much of a hassle/reverse engineering feat, I would love the have the VR6 engine over the subie (no blasting please) for the simple fact that it is the best sounding engine that I have heard. Pure harmonic bliss is how my brain describes the exhaust note to me.

[Xusia]

I don't really think mating the VR6 to the Subaru 5MT transmission is the best idea. The VR6 is a transverse mounted engine, and the 5MT is designed for a longitudinally mounted engine. While it might technically be possible to mate them, that's prob the least efficient use of the very limited space in the 818, and I just don't see it working.

If you really want a VR6, I think using it's transmission is a far better idea. You could mount the VR6 transversely - like it's designed to be mounted - and make much better use of the space. You might have to make some modifications, but I think the result will be better in the long run.

[killerrudy]

There are a few production applications in which the VR6 was longitudinal. The Audi B5 and Phaeton are two examples so I wouldn't think that would be an issue of what it was designed for. Efficiency aside (added engine weight) it would just a engineering nightmare to shoehorn it in there I think. Past moving the mounts back maybe 1 inch (pending axle binding issues) I think you would still have to push the bay forward into the fuel tank area.

[Xusia]

There are a few production applications in which the VR6 was longitudinal. The Audi B5 and Phaeton are two examples so I wouldn't think that would be an issue of what it was designed for.

I didn't know that. I've only seen that engine in FWD VWs, so thanks for educating me!


Efficiency aside (added engine weight) it would just a engineering nightmare to shoehorn it in there I think. Past moving the mounts back maybe 1 inch (pending axle binding issues) I think you would still have to push the bay forward into the fuel tank area.

That's really more the point I was trying to make. Mounted longitudinally, the VR6 is longer than the EJ/EZ engines, which creates space issues.

[Frank818]

Ok but transversally?

I got the engine, with too much power I would detune it but that's easy, I got a super awesome 6-sp tranny, now what? Is the engine too tall to fit anyway?

If I look at Mechie's nice measurements, do I see 30" high for the 818 engine bay?
VR6 has 26", so that should fit there.

Width, I see 38-40" on Mechie's.
VR6 has 36, so that should fit there.

EDIT: Axle/hub to firewall in 818 is 24-26".
VR6 has 20-21, should fit.

Maybe the upper crossbars may be an issue for height?

[Xusia]

Like I said, there may be some modifications required. Based on your measurements, the engine definitely fits better transversely than longitudinally. The only issue seems to be the extra 4" needed from axle to firewall. Depending on where exactly that 4" is needed, you might be able to get away with a differently shaped gas tank. Alternatively, you could relocate the gas tank rearward of the axles (since there is not longer a transmission there), or up in the front somewhere (which should leave you with a monsterous cavity in back for a trunk!).

[Frank818]

So if I understand, the 16" from the bracket to the firewall on Mechie's 818 is where the axles fit? Where the brackets are, that's where the axles fit? I am trying to see exactly where the middle of the axles fit wrt the firewall on the 818.

Then yeah, not possible to modify the brackets as anyway the VR6 axles will still be at an angle with the wheels.

Moving the gas tank probably means re-doing the rectangle frame around it too, as the frame is also at 15-16" from the axles and may well hit on the top and/or bottom of the VR6 front end.

I mean, looking at that, if the axles to the front of engine are not exactly 16" (or less depending on the engine's shape), I don't see how any engine could fit.

[Xusia]

I mean, looking at that, if the axles to the front of engine are not exactly 16" (or less depending on the engine's shape), I don't see how any engine could fit.

I think it depends on the engine. If a part that protrudes into the gas tank space hits the frame, then you would have to modify the frame. That's not to say every engine would have parts sticking forward in exactly those spots though...

[Frank818]

Basically I think it's very hard to know if it fits and how it fits until someone actually tries it in.

Speedy, with only 4" too many on the axle-to-front length, maybe it's worth it for you to give a try (since Subaru parts are so hard to get in your country anyway)?

[Oppenheimer]

Basically I think it's very hard to know if it fits and how it fits until someone actually tries it in.

Speedy, with only 4" too many on the axle-to-front length, maybe it's worth it for you to give a try (since Subaru parts are so hard to get in your country anyway)?

The problem with trying for him is if it doesn't fit, what does he do then? He doesn't have ready access to used Subie parts, new parts (Subie engine & trans) way too expensive. Plus he has to have it built in less than a year, or he can never register it, and $10K down the drain. I know there are others with desire to fit the VW motor. So maybe best bet is to let someone else pave the way on the formula to make this work. Then he can just follow that example and know he can be done in < 1 year.

[Frank818]

The problem with trying for him is if it doesn't fit, what does he do then?

Oops, crap, sorry I really didn't think of that one! :o


Well I'll talk with my friend (my mechanic too) and see if he'd give it a try to fit my VR engine and assume some frame modifications. Thing is, it must not add length to the frame, otherwise the fiberglass panels won't fit anymore. And having a custom gas tank (smaller, if frame is pushed forwards over there) is not something he can do. Maybe I can give measurements to Boyd I remember they can do custom!

I'll seriously think about it, as I am pretty sure I can save a lot of money to use my Corrado as the engine/ECU/tranny donor (and maybe the seats donor too with its nice Recaros, and why not Momo S/W and shift knob and etc.) and sell the remaining parts over the years.

Will take me months before I get a clear answer, though. Only weeks if I am lucky, but I doubt I will on that one.

[Frank818]

I think have enough information to analyze the feasibility of physically installing the VR in the 818. But I am scoping only the engine and 6sp tranny, NOT the axles, spindles/knuckles/hubs, rear brakes.

Speaking of that, how these can fit?


The other thing I thought about, is weight difference an issue? The long block EJ25 with accessories and liquids is around 265lbs according to Nasioc. Add probably 80 for the tranny, that's 345lbs. Wayne said the EZ30 weighs what, 15-20lbs more, that's 365lbs.
The VR6 with tranny weighs about 400lbs. 35lbs more may not be an issue and the weight would be shifted towards the front, cuz the tranny would entirely fit in front of the axles.

[Oppenheimer]

For the rest of the running gear, spindles, brakes, hubs, etc, just use Subie stuff. It doesn't have to be WRX, almost anything will do, and since its so light it will still be more than enough stopping power.

Even our friend desde Columbia is going to use Subie parts for this. He is going to buy new, and will pay through the nose, but since its all small stuff its not as bad as buying the whole drivetrain.

That brings up another thought about nuestro amigo Columbiano waiting. On other FFR kits, they offer 'complete' kits, where you can source all the donor stuff as new parts right from FFR. If they do the same for the 818, I imagine our friend could manage to order the complete kit, but minus engine and tranny, so that all the other donor parts are part of the kit. Although its not legal to import new parts except through a dealer ($$$), it seems a kit is legal, and who is to say what parts are really options or not. The windshield and headlights are new OEM parts from another car that just happen to come with the kit. In this case there would just be more of such parts. So if our firend waits, it might be much cheaper to buy these same parts from FFR as part of the kit, than to buy them new from local Subie dealer.

Of course, he could also then buy the Subie engine and trans from FFR, but it sounds like he can get VW drivetrain so much cheaper, not to mention replacement parts when stuff wears out, that it would still be a better deal to fabricate in the VW stuff than buy new Subie drivetrain with kit.

[Frank818]

Good points!
I hope it will turn out well for SpeedyColumbia.

As for me well I didn't know the axles would fit the VW tranny.

But now that I have good pictures of the rear frame, I will drop a call to my mech and see what he thinks. Once I figure stuff out, I'll post back.

[Xusia]

Wouldn't the Corrado be worth more as a completed car than an H4 would cost?

[Frank818]

Wouldn't the Corrado be worth more as a completed car than an H4 would cost?

Ha that question, how many times I asked myself...

Short answer is: yes. According to what I've seen (Corrados sold prices) and based on quality of Corrado parts and modifications, it should be worth about 2-3 times a 06-07 WRX.


Long and complex answer: price is not all what matters in my potential choice here. Now if you don't want to know why I am looking into potentially fitting the VR in, plz stop reading here. But for those who are interested or those who don't know what to do and can have for cheap a VR, it may be interesting to read.

My personal situation is that I have a slight problem selling that quite modified car around here (Canada is 1/10th of USA and my Province is less than half of NYC. Plus, anyone can buy an STI and get as much power as I have and have it on AWD all that for a decent price, we're not in the 90s anymore). I guess for 10-12k it would easily go away, but when I calculate the cost of buying a donor, using an H6 to have the sound out of it (important for me), using a 2.5k TEC-GT ECU, buying a couple of little other things that I could re-use from the Corrado if it were a donor, upgrading the H6 to about the same power as the Corrado or even lower to around 330-350rwhp/rwtq, getting all that shipped across border if I can't get what I need in Canada, I am pretty sure money wise it may be around the same as using the Corrado as a donor, or maybe a little more. Of course, there are a lot of IFs in my above statement, but "ifs" bring along "risks". I don't know which choice is less expensive until I know for sure how much I just sold the car for. Then there is time. How long until I sell the car? If the VR was already easy to fit in the 818, I would already be on that 1year+ list at FFR. Now I am not at all, not until I sell the Corrado, so who knows how long. Getting my 818 earlier has a price (opportunity cost in economic terms) which I have to take into account in my calculations of the options (Corrado as donor vs WRX as donor).

There are other factors I put in my equation: I know that Corrado more than I know any part of my own body. lolll I know its strengths, I know its weaknesses, I know exactly how it behaves when I dial in more or less fuel, more or less timing, combine this with that, etc. I would start all over with the WRX engine, that's ok, but that time is taking into account in my equation.

Then there's the sound. I can't tell about the H6 in the 818, I know the H4 in the 818 is awesome, but I also know I have a hard time beating my personal VR6 sound and I know how to make it better or worse by playing with exhaust parts. Personal taste.

All in all, with modifications and everything, yes probably the VR way is more costly, but I don't look into that to make my decision.

Nothing's perfect, I cannot take a perfect decision that will be the best out of the 2. But when I weigh in all these factors (and more that I have not mentioned cuz no one will read through down here anyway :)), if my mech really thinks he can modify the frame without compromising the handling, the structure, the torsion and the rear humps fiberglass panel, I know he can do it for almost FREE if I work with him. Then I believe using my engine-ECU and tranny, plus some other parts like S/W, adapter, knob, etc. and selling the remaining parts over time may be an interesting project for me. Maybe I could also use my current brakes, who knows...


As you can see it's all fairly complex if I want to make the right decision that I won't regret later (I can't be sure of that no matter what). This Saturday I'll be talking with my mech on the possible frame modifications to fit the VR. I will know more then and think about what to do.

[Frank818]

I wonder, maybe it's possible to use the steering of the VW too and some other parts. All the parts currently used from the Subaru donor, maybe more than just the VW engine/tranny can be used. Let's see what my mech says on the engine first this Sat. I am ready, I printed out (my mech is old school :)) all the pix I could find and tnx to Wallace for providing many of them.

[killerrudy]

All I know is if you do decide to go thru with the swap and your tech/mech can make it happen I am going to be #2 with the VR6 swap. I can't not wish for a better sounding exhaust to sing to me

[Oppenheimer]

Suggestions for Frank:

- Try to sell the Corrado
If you can get your price, problem solved. Build up a nice Subie powered 818
Or, buy a VR6, build that up, and drop it into your 818 for a more interesting project

- If the Corrado doesn't sell, then consider using it as donor

Meanwhile, you can order the 818 kit now, and have until it arrives to try and sell the Corrado.

[Frank818]

So far if my mech says he can make it, I do not see at the time of writing this what would prevent me from signing in with FFR next week. :)

Keep an eye on this thread for this w-e or next Monday.
I am not expecting 100% positive answers from my mech, I foresee work, efforts, sweat, time, some money and many challenges here and there, but if I, you or others accept the estimated result, then why not. The real result will be seen during the swap. I'll have to have the risk gauged correctly, I need to understand what troubles I could end up with if that doesn't turn out well.

I can hardly imagine the sound of a VR6 turbo with a 3" turbo outlet/exhaust, very short length, and just one magnaflow muffler. lolll

[Frank818]

Suggestions for Frank:

- Try to sell the Corrado
If you can get your price, problem solved. Build up a nice Subie powered 818
Or, buy a VR6, build that up, and drop it into your 818 for a more interesting project

- If the Corrado doesn't sell, then consider using it as donor

Meanwhile, you can order the 818 kit now, and have until it arrives to try and sell the Corrado.

Yeah I get it. :) Not a bad idea. And either way I end up with the 818, I like that. :)
tnx Opp.

[Frank818]

Short answer: no go for me.

Long answer: I completely forgot about the unequal halfshafts! My mech is not concerned about engine bay area, but he was about the fact the VR6 uses unequal length shafts. That makes things harder to fit as if they are not the exact length it won't fit. Since it's not very good to change the size of a shaft and since I do not want to go down the R&D route and found a way to build my own shafts, I am trashing the idea of fitting the VR6 in the 818 and in my case I'll live with the hassle of trying to sell my car (probably at a ridiculously low price).

I have other engine/tranny options in mind if I decide not to use the Subaru engine, but if you want to save troubles, use a longitudinal tranny.

[Xusia]

Sorry to hear that Frank. :(

[theburner9]

could you not get an axle shop to just make them the right length? Seems like a pretty miniscule thing to keep you from going down that road

[Frank818]

could you not get an axle shop to just make them the right length? Seems like a pretty miniscule thing to keep you from going down that road

I do not know any, nor does my mech. I did not search for one either I must admit.

But if I or someone can find such a shop, then yeah it would bring back the idea on the table. :)

[Frank818]

I have contacted www.driveshaftshop.com. I am asking them about part #RA2283X2/RA2282X2, but with different lengths. These are custom built axles for the Corrado (they have more for the Corrado and for a lot of other cars). So I am asking same thing but with different lengths.

Of course no one knows the lengths yet, but if they can do it, then I'm back in the game. Cuz is this just a game, right. :)


I don't know much about axles, how many splines (dents) on the CV ends are there on the WRX and what is the diameter and configuration?
I read this thread (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?11112-Internal-CV-Spline-Mismatch&highlight=splines) and don't know what specs I need to respect.

[icky]

Have you asked dss if they can make custom shafts that go from corrado to wrx cv's? If they have the tooling to do each, they should be able to make a hybrid axle too.

[Frank818]

I just chatted with DSS (yes, on a Sunday!!!) and basically they can do anything in any length. They do a lot of these things.
They just need the specs. They need to know what outer CV will be used and what length the axles and that's it.
Of course I told him it would go on a VW tranny so they already know these specs too.
Ok it's certainly better if you tell them the weight of the car, RWD and how much power you want the axles to support, that way they can gauge the best material to build the axles in.

:D

I'm back in the game, I guess!
I'll talk again with my mech this week.

I don't know what outer are used, I have started a small thread on that, it seems there are FFR custom parts in there, maybe just the axles and they couple in the outer and inner WRX CVs, I don't know.

[Frank818]

LOLLL That is so... lucky.

DSS is a supplier for FFR! They make all of FFR's shafts. DSS is asking FFR what exactly they are using on the 818 and DSS will check the feasibility to build custom lengths halfshafts that would fit the VW (mine is 02A tranny, I believe after one all the others can be made).

If it's a VW spline it's about 800 if it's a Subaru spline it's about 1000, difference being in the material used, the subaru's splines are smaller than VW so DSS needs to use a stronger material.



Then for other things, the height of the VR engine. Probably 2 to 4in more than the H4. I think it's possible to let the VR oil pan go lower than the bottom of the H4 and worst case increase a little ride height. Worst of all, crossbars frame modifications and my mech is not afraid of that.
Second thing, engine depth. That may well go further than the firewall, but in my case since I am a short guy, I am sure I can gain 3-4in by installing the fuel tank further forward and pushing forward the firewall. If I can't, I have other ideas and anyway Boyd can do custom tanks if required.

So if DSS can make those shafts, I don't think there would be any show stopper to fit the VR6 AAA with 02A tranny (to be specific). Might cost a lot for those who would choose to buy a VR donor, but those that don't have the choice or already have a donor, it may be worth it.

Quick calculations
Option 1: 10k for the kit, 0k for the donor, 2k for custom stuff, 1k for cheap labor, 0k for engine modifications, -5k to sell VW parts that's 8k for the kit, not considering all other parts I would buy no matter if I go with H4-6 or VR6.
Option 2: 7k Subaru donor, 5k in engine modifications, 1k in shipping, 10k for the kit, -15k IF I can sell the VW at that price, that's 8k. So overall money-wise could be about the same for me.

But in option 1 I get an engine I know for the past 20 years, that has 105k km (65k miles) and is well maintained, 6sp with awesome ratios, tuning knowledge is already done, no need to WAIT to sell the VW in order to get money and garage space (nothing I can do until I get that space).

And tnx to theburner9 who kicked me in the behind and made me search for custom axles. :)

[Frank818]

Well call me crazy but I'm diving in! :)

[Frank818]

I checked with my mech and he said if I can get custom axles then no problem it's a go.

Then I checked again on Mechie's picture in the first page. I was looking for the axles to firewall length and I thought that was from the 818 engine mount bracket to the firewall, but I think I was wrong. If we look on the pictures, the middle of the axles seem to be around 24-25in from the firewall (I don't think they are installed at an angle too much forward). The VR6 needs about 20-21in! That looks promising!

EDIT: Firewall to center of rear hub is 24". Firewall to center of output on transmission is 26" (axles are forward swept slightly). Confirmed by 2 people.

The only possibility is the height, that should be much tighter, but I see no issues working around, just a matter of time.

Now I am waiting on DSS to confirm he can do the axles, based on his conversation (on going) with FFR.

Then I will look with Transport Canada and SAAQ in Quebec to make sure the steps I have to follow and what I need to respect. Fortunately someone on this forum got his Roadster approved and he's willing to help me understand. Short answer is: it's feasible.

So I am starting my project. :)
But not my build thread yet, I just want to close out the above 2 steps first.

[theburner9]

And tnx to theburner9 who kicked me in the behind and made me search for custom axles. :)

I'm in the business of motivating people to do things that I wouldn't want to do myself :P

[Oppenheimer]

I foresee DSS becoming the go-to source for axles for alternate drivetrain 818's. Once they do a few of these for different drivetrains, they'll have the specs for that swap and can make more, and offer them at a set price (instead of as custom). Seems like there is an opportunity for someone to put together a series of kits for alternate drivetrains for 818. Include new motor and trans mounts, with instructions on what to cut off, and where to weld in the new brackets, include the needed axles, etc.

It would be cool if FFR could make it an option to not have the Subie motor and trans brackets installed, just so its one less step hacking them off for such alternate drivetrain projects.

[Frank818]

Ok some updates. Like I said I would dive in deeper on the verge of ordering.

My further analysis turned a little less good. After seeing it is most probably possible to swap in the VR6 in there, I found out I still need a subaru donor!! What for? Well all the other parts!!

Control arms, proportining valve (though not mentioned on FFR list), door hinges, latches, steering, tie rods, brake booster and parts, at least 2 knuckles and brakes and some other parts. So how can I get these parts? Either new, lots of money, or from a... Subaru donor! Lollll

Could buy a donor and sell the engine and tranny. More steps, more complicated to tear down 2 donors...

So still thinking...

[Mechie3]

FFR provides a wilwood adjustable valve as part of the kit. Door hinges and latches are easy to get. Every donor has 2 sets, we only need 1. I sold one set of latches to wallace18 IIRC. Ebay has the parts you need, but expensively. NASIOC usually has them much more cheaply.

Overall, though, it will be a lot of hunting for parts. You could also likely buy a cheaper donor (base impreza).

[Speedy G]

Hey guys, I've been missing for a while, but it looks like Frankie818 has taken this to a place where it's viable. My comments on the hunting for parts issue is solved by someone diving in and try to make jetta/gti/corrado VR6 donor work as much as possible. Why wouldn't a vw brake system work with it's booster and proportioning valve? Also, I checked the wheelbase and there's only a 1/2 inch difference between subie and VW, but custom axles are probably a good idea anyway if you're doing more than 300 ftlbs of torque. The way I look at it, FFR provides is a great chasis and body, and those are things I can't improve on in a 1 shot project. The rest may be able to get fitted with VW parts, but fabrication is indeed necessary. It's not a project for the impatient, nor is it cheap, but I think it's doable, and beating an M5 or a 911 turbo off the line and on the track would be oh so sweet having spent less than 30k. The one thing that might be difficult is the suspension, especially the control arms, although custom control arms could be viable, they probably won't come cheap. If FFR would provide them, that'd be awesome, as well as all the door stuff.

Now if someone with a workshop would create a kit (hint hint), the VAG community would be very grateful, I'm sure. Why do it? For the same reason people buy GTIs instead of WRXs. There's a huge fan base of VAG vehicles as well as Subie vehicles (and mazda, and honda). And there's a LOT of stage IV modders out there that run out of stuff to do to their cars (like Frankie818). The only way to make Frankie818's car go faster is to get rid of the VAG body and go rear wheel drive. I think this kit would be a great stage V for heavy modders. Anybody that's interested should check out the tech forums at vwvortex.com and ask the community. I was a stage IV modder and the day I got rid of my modded car, I wish I'd kept the engine. I'm sure most people feel that way when they get rid of their cars. There's over 500,000 messages just in the vwvortex 2.8 VR6 tech forum. Now that's only 1 of many VAG engines that would fit in an 818. How many do you think would be interested in getting rid of their VAG body to get into the 11's? I'm putting up a post on vortex linking back. We'll see what the reponse is like.

The great thing about the 818 platform is that with a lightly modded 4 banger you've already got world class performance. I've said it before, it's a stage IV modders dream!

Speedy G

[Frank818]

Overall, though, it will be a lot of hunting for parts. You could also likely buy a cheaper donor (base impreza).

Exactly, both sentences are true!
Fine for door latches and hinges but for steering rack, brake smaller parts and stuff, there's only one per donor. :)
A lot of hunting or tearing down 2 donors, yes.

[Frank818]

My comments on the hunting for parts issue is solved by someone diving in and try to make jetta/gti/corrado VR6 donor work as much as possible. Why wouldn't a vw brake system work with it's booster and proportioning valve?

Ha there you are. :)

Well who knows what fits and not? Many parts it's when you try you see if it fits or not, but that's too late if you hit a show stopper or need to spend a lot of money to fixing one small thing that is straight forward if using subaru parts.

What if the steering rack and column don't fit?

Basically every part used from a subaru donor should be checked if you use from a VW. Or find the subaru parts.

But for the engine and tranny, I am pretty sure it's not much of an issue if one can do some fabrication.

[Frank818]

FFR provides a wilwood adjustable valve as part of the kit. Door hinges and latches are easy to get. Every donor has 2 sets, we only need 1. I sold one set of latches to wallace18 IIRC. Ebay has the parts you need, but expensively. NASIOC usually has them much cheaply.

Mechie, you did your inventory already, are there donor parts we need that are not listed on FFR's list on the website?

[Speedy G]

Btw, just so people can compare with H6, the following clip shows what a VR6 sounds like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lifeFfxl4F4

Notice once he gets to around 4kRPM the tires just break lose, in 4th gear... That's why a RWD VR6 with Racelogic is a good idea.

Speedy G

[Speedy G]

Man I'd love to experiment, but I have twins coming in like a month, so it won't be me doing the first VAG 818 kit, unless no one does it in the next 6 months.

Regarding the steering column, etc. One thing I hate about kit cars is the interior looking like a regular off the lot car. I'm building a supercar, not a modified jetta. I'd much prefer to spend the 300 bucks from summit instead of having the original subie steering column. Now the steering rack is a different story. Subie racks are awesome because they have electrically adjustable power steering. Now that's worth keeping.

[Frank818]

Yeah, that is the sound of a VR6. :)

I won't be doing in the next year cuz the wait time is just that, one year, if you order today. :)

What 300 bucks from Summit? For what part? Keep talking, man. :)

In my case I won't keep the power steering, would remain manual.

Ok how about I list all the donor parts here and we see what replacement or fitting solution we can think of?

[Frank818]

Speedy (and anyone else willing to help), I got my beer, I got my vodka, I'm ready. loll

So here's the list FFR says you need these parts from the donor:

• Front spindles with full brakes and front lower control arms
• Rear spindles with brakes and e-brake handle/cables
• Steering rack, tie rod ends, and upper steering column assembly
• Pedal box and throttle pedal
• Master cylinder and brake booster, and clutch master cylinder
• Engine with turbo and intercooler (if WRX model)
• Exhaust manifolds, O2 sensors, and down tube
• Transmission
• Rear lower control arms, toe links, and CV joints
• Front seats, front seat belts, and gauge pod
• Fuel pump
• Radiator
• Wheels and tires
• Door hinges, front w/ latches,strikers, and inside door handles
• Side view mirrors, left and right
• Rear view mirror
• Rear seat belts


Detailed covering (solutions):

• Front spindles with full brakes and front lower control arms
1- I would still use Subaru.
2- Retrofit the VW front brakes and spindles but unlikely the control arm.

• Rear spindles with brakes and e-brake handle/cables
1- Retrofit VW rear brakes and spindles + e-brake.
2- Retrofit VW rear stuff and upgrade rotor size and calipers.
3- Retrofit VW front brakes (12.3" for me), calipers, spindles and control arm (if that one is possible).
4- Use Subaru stuff but keep the VW e-brake.
5- Use VW front brakes (12.3" for me) in the rear and buy FFR 80656 - Wilwood 12” Front Brakes, Black Calipers, Slotted ($999 +$65 S S/H) for the front

• Steering rack, tie rod ends, and upper steering column assembly
????

• Pedal box and throttle pedal
I guess VW ones can be used, may require fabrication and certainly increase throttle cable length (mine is cable).

• Master cylinder and brake booster, and clutch master cylinder
With the VW pedal box, I believe it would fit.

• Engine with turbo and intercooler (if WRX model)
Use VW's engine.

• Exhaust manifolds, O2 sensors, and down tube
Use VW's stuff.

• Transmission
Use VW's stuff.

• Rear lower control arms, toe links, and CV joints
1- Use VW stuff.
2- Use VW CVs and Subaru for the control arm and toe links (that's feasible??).
3- Use all Subaru's.

• Front seats, front seat belts, and gauge pod
Use VW's.

• Fuel pump
Use VW's.

• Radiator
Use VW's.

• Wheels and tires
Depends what you got.
In my case I will re-use my tires for the front (and will have 2 spare), but need 4 rims and 2 rear tires.

• Door hinges, front w/ latches,strikers, and inside door handles
1- Use VW's.
2- Use Subaru's.

• Side view mirrors, left and right
Use VW's.

• Rear view mirror
Use VW's.

• Rear seat belts
Use VW's (whether front of rear).


So how can we get "quite sure" about these solutions? I mean, the question to ask at every bullet point is "what could go wrong?".

[Frank818]

Some more updates on this.

I dug further down a few levels and so far it seems fine, but far from easy though. It's at this point impossible to know if the other donor parts taken from a VW instead of a 02-07 Sub will or not fit and to what extent. For example, there are nuts and clevis to re-use from the brake booster, I don't even know how the one on my VW is made and even if I did, very hard to know if it will fit without trying (at this point you're kinda late in the project's decision anyway, right?).

So yes the possibility to chase parts "à la carte" like you buy stuff in a restaurant is quite probable.

I guess if I ask AJW to sell me a Subaru pallet without the engine/ecu/tranny it could cost in the 3-4k range, from a cheap donor, that is, and *if* they agree to do so. I will ask for sure in the future, we never know.

Here are the potential solutions I have found:

1- No matter how, fit all the VW donor parts in (let me know if you finish 5 years less after you started);
2- Fit some of the VW donor parts in and chase the other Subaru's;
3- Buy a dieted Subaru donor pallet, without at least the engine/ecu/tranny (and more if the seller agrees and you know the VW parts will fit), but I have to find a seller who agrees to do so;
4- Buy a quite wrecked Subaru for which you may need to buy just a few parts as replacements;
5- Buy a Subaru with all the parts and dismantle it yourself;
6- Find another kit car (I checked and the 818 is by far answering better my requirements than others, so I stay);
7- Hop out of the VW donor project and go back to full Subaru.


This coming Saturday the 9th I am again meeting with my mech. After talking with him he is very interested in starting his own 818 too! That wasn't expected. He thinks it's a very cool project and wants to spend sometime better understanding the company, the project and stuff. He wants to go back in time and feel young again by playing on such a project. Good for me! He's very old school though and doesn't go on internet and forums so I have printed him stuff to talk about. After looking at the disassembly manual, he'll give me his confident level wrt the other donor parts.

From there I'll see what to do. There are very good chances I sign up officially with FFR next week. I hope so, I want to. I need to. :)

[Oppenheimer]

Not sure what the diff is between 4 & 5, but I think that is the way to go. Get a cheap, wrecked non-WRX Subie (which will be cheap since its non-WRX), and sell of what you don't use (which includes engine & trans). Use the VW drivetrain only.

What is the advantage of using VW drivetrain? The biggest is you like that platform. What is the advantage of using the other VW donor parts, and trying to fit square peg in round hole of hinges, pedal boxes, etc? Just that you already have those parts. But the effort to make them fit far exceeds the effort to just get the parts that will bolt right in.

[AZPete]

Why? Because he can. It's the same reason a guy will put a jet helicopter engine in a Gremlin or a V8 in a golf cart . . . or a V6 or an electric motor in an 818. "Because he can" in justification enough. Go for it!

[Frank818]

I think that is the way to go. Get a cheap, wrecked non-WRX Subie (which will be cheap since its non-WRX), and sell of what you don't use (which includes engine & trans).

That's what I think too, probably my first choice. My mech has space for 28 cars in a warehouse, so I can dismantle the VW and wrecked Subie no problem. Will take some time, but probably less headaches than chasing parts or trying to fit the VW parts in.

[Frank818]

Why? Because he can. It's the same reason a guy will put a jet helicopter engine in a Gremlin or a V8 in a golf cart . . . or a V6 or an electric motor in an 818. "Because he can" in justification enough. Go for it!

Tnx for the warm encouragements. :)
I'm not trying to fly with the 818, so I'll stick with a mere V6 and leave the helicopter engine or a scramjet engine for others. :)
Though, some people at Honda did put a 130hp motorcycle bike into a lawnmower. :)

[blueoval_bowtie_guy]

Frank,

Have you checked to see what any local junk yards have on hand? I would think that since you're looking primarily for suspension parts that you might be able to find a few different Imprezza / WRX cars that can supply what you need without having to buy an entire donor.

Steve

[Frank818]

That's true Steve, I didn't think about junk yards. I'll check with my mech as he knows more than I do about that. All in all what I can see is that there are a lot of choices to get the non-drivetrain parts, so I don't see an issue there, fortunately. :)

[Frank818]

IT'S DONE!
I finally placed my order!!!
I hope to have it around Oct 11 2014. I need to have it before Dec 2014 or mid-Nov 2014 as starting to that point chances to have snow or permanent snow on the ground is way too high and I don't want to freeze my balls off when I'll get the kit back (I am driving down to FFR to pick it up myself, about 6-7h drive one way).

My mech told me as soon as he sells his little boat (a $10-15k boat), probably next spring, he's buying a kit and he will put a 3.6L Porsche engine with G50 tranny (<-----C.Plavan read this). We will build or kits probably 6-8 months apart. So I will actually build 2 kits as we will work on both kits. :)

I will start my thread soon and post what I plan on doing, post some pix of my donor and garage and I guess my thread will die there until I get my hands on the kit in a year. But at least after posting so many times on this forum, now it's official, I'm in with you guys. :) I wanted to order before too many people will after SEMA. lollll

When I showed my mech pix of you guys' builds and vids from Craig Mechie's thread, + the installation manual, my mech immediately realized how well this kit is built and that FFR thought about a lot of things to make this kit a success and of very high quality. This kit has no cheap parts and is not coming from a cracker jack box. He was impressed by the quality of the design and by the support FFR provides AFTER the kit its released (upgrades, improvements, attention to details, etc.).

He is also now really against the idea of not using Subaru parts except for the engine/tranny. For the other parts, since it's more specific and mostly cuz FFR designed some brackets that are meant to fit on the specific Subaru parts, it would be very complex to fit anything else and in some cases could seriously alter the kit. But for the engine and tranny, no worries for my mech. So yes I will either buy a donor or buy an AJW palette and sell the engine/tranny. Sure my kit will cost a little more than others, but I'll be using the engine I grew up with, one that I understand better than anything else, one that I know all its behaviors and one that makes an awesome deep and smooth growl, with a perfectly geared 6-sp that will sustain the power no problem. So that, gentlemen, is worth the extra money for me, period... :)

[Xusia]

Awesome Frank! Welcome to the fray!! :)

[Speedy G]

Awesome Frank! I'll be watching. I agree, probably your best bet is #4 or #5. The advantage you have is that you already have the vw engine. Once you get the kit you can decide whether or not to use it. For the rest, yeah, it might be easier to source everything from an old subie. The best of luck!! I might take a little longer than you to get mine. I have to sort out some legalities first.

[Speedy G]

Hey Frank... now I'm wondering if we could get a DSG tranny in there. I'll probably be driving daily with less than 300whp and maybe let it loose on the track once in a while with the full 400whp I'm targetting. Do you know of anyone that's installed one without the entire ECU bundle?

Btw, it looks like I may be able to get a donor after all, just not with an engine I'd like to install in an 818. Most of the local imprezas have 1.6L engines. I'll be on the lookout for an accident donor since a regular 2002 donor goes for USD7-8k. Also, btw, if you're the first installer, and you have to do some fabrication to get the VR6 in there, count me in as a buyer for fabricated parts.

[Frank818]

The DSG? Certainly not on an old AAA like mine (I mean I am not aware and not sure if it can be done).
An old friend on the other side of the world (UK) did a R32 swap in his Corrado but he was using the 5-sp still and planned on the 02M, which has been done already.
But, my best guess for that type of swap (DSG) is to look around www.vwvortex.com.

1.6L, that's sounds small!
Unless someone has bought a kit before me and plans on fitting the VR in, I should be the first. Keep an eye on my build thread next year and we'll see how deep it goes into the chassis mods. :)