H6-EZ30 engine in the 818----IT FITS [Archive]

Wayne Presley

08-08-2013, 01:59 PM

Disclaimer-FFR is not supporting the H6 in technical, parts or any other aspect. They are only supporting the 2.0 and 2.5L four cylinder engines.

I ran the donor yesterday morning with the cat back off of it and it sounds so sweet. Sounds just the 911 Porsche. Pulled the donor apart yesterday, pulled the motor out of my 818 this morning, had the H6 in by 10AM, removed it and had my motor back in before lunch. The motor bolted in to the stock location, had about .300" clearance between the passenger side timing cover and frame. Exhaust will have to be custom and the upper coolant has two ports instead of one and will require a 2 into 1 manifold/T of sorts. Did I mention I love the sound???

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/P1020245_zpsacafe1c3.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/P1020245_zpsacafe1c3.jpg.html)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/P1020244_zpse48947e1.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/P1020244_zpse48947e1.jpg.html)

Disclaimer-FFR is not supporting the H6 in technical, parts or any other aspect. They are only supporting the 2.0 and 2.5L four cylinder engines.

ehansen007

08-08-2013, 02:01 PM

Lets hear it!

David Hodgkins

08-08-2013, 02:48 PM

Hoo hoo hoo, I'm ready to see that run too! What's the HP rating, and what models does in come out of?

:)

EDIT: Answered my own question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Subaru_engines#Subaru_EZ_engine

timmy318

08-08-2013, 03:22 PM

That's awesome!!!! Can't wait to hear it (you are going to let us hear it right? :p)!

SkiRideDrive

08-08-2013, 03:39 PM

This is awesome.

and just to fuel the fire....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdhSlF5oK94

Mechie3

08-08-2013, 03:48 PM

Nice. I think the only "issue" with the EZ30 was engine management if you didn't want to spend big bucks.

Pretty cool how quickly you had it in and out and back again. lol.

Silvertop

08-08-2013, 04:55 PM

"The Sound" is the primary (maybe the only) reason I would ever have seriously considered trying to shoehorn an H6 into this car. To me, the Porsche flat 6 has always been one of the prettiest sounding engines around -- and I had no doubt that the Subie H6 would sound very similar. I'm pretty sure my custom EL headers for my NA H4 will make my 818 sound good -- but there's really no way to make a four-banger sound like a six. I do hope you (Wayne) recorded the sound before you took the engine back out again. Because you're probably going to be HOUNDED until you produce an audio of it. Which means putting it back in again. :rolleyes:

Well, come to think of it, another really good reason to put in the six would be for the broad torque curve. I'd love to have that.

C.Plavan

08-08-2013, 06:07 PM

Sounds like this.......:) Hit HD for better sound/vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CM1qMadE3M

(I'm chasing a 2x Daytona 24 hour winner for the lead)

Silvertop

08-08-2013, 06:33 PM

Sounds like this.......:) Hit HD for better sound/vid...........

(I'm chasing a 2x Daytona 24 hour winner for the lead)

Yup, that's the sound -- though unless I'm way off base, that IS a flat six Porsche, not a Subie trying to sound like one. Looks like you had some fun there. Classic battle of brute horsepower vs. phenomenal handling. I can't believe how quickly you caught him up in the turns -- but how easily he was able to pull away in the straights. Had to be fun, though! You drive well!

flynntuna

08-08-2013, 06:52 PM

Does the transmission bolt to the frame in the same location? Even though FFR doesn't support the H6, one could start with a NA build and upgrade to a H6 later.

skullandbones

08-08-2013, 07:13 PM

Wayne,

So that means the CVs, shafts, etc all line up and the diff fits within the body panels? I suppose Electromotive could support it with a stand alone system. They've done everything else, I think. Love the exhaust note! Thanks, WEK.

jkrueger

08-08-2013, 08:43 PM

Sounds like this.......:) Hit HD for better sound/vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CM1qMadE3M

(I'm chasing a 2x Daytona 24 hour winner for the lead)

Great race! Sounds good too.

WIS89

08-08-2013, 08:48 PM

Wayne-

I need to hijack a line from the Adam Sandler movie Mr. Deeds. "I think you underestimate my sneakiness Sir!" You Sir, are quite sneaky!!

Congratulations again on your very coolness! I am slack-jawed! Keep on rocking.

Regards,

Steve

Wayne Presley

08-08-2013, 09:10 PM

Does the transmission bolt to the frame in the same location? Even though FFR doesn't support the H6, one could start with a NA build and upgrade to a H6 later.
The trans is in the same location.

Wayne,

So that means the CVs, shafts, etc all line up and the diff fits within the body panels? I suppose Electromotive could support it with a stand alone system. They've done everything else, I think. Love the exhaust note! Thanks, WEK.

All fits, the only tight point is one of the cooling inlets but not a deal breaker

Wayne-

I need to hijack a line from the Adam Sandler movie Mr. Deeds. "I think you underestimate my sneakiness Sir!" You Sir, are quite sneaky!!

Congratulations again on your very coolness! I am slack-jawed! Keep on rocking.

Regards,

Steve

Me sneaky? Nah, just wanted to see if it could be done. The flat 4 sounds great between 3000 and 7000 rpm, just not so much at near idle speeds. Now the flat 6 is pure music to my ears, and that sound tucked in my FFR 818 will be heaven! Dropping the motor in the chassis requires some creative manipulations if you have the intake on the engine. It has to go in about 10° nose down the the tail of the trans swung over to the drivers side about a foot.

Wayne Presley

08-08-2013, 09:11 PM

One more pic

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/20130808_101554_zps3048404d.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/20130808_101554_zps3048404d.jpg.html)

Xusia

08-08-2013, 11:55 PM

Just seeing this is making me consider blowing my budget and dropping coin on an H6 and engine management. LOVE the sound. Not the smartest reason to spend more money, but man - SO tempting!

Flamshackle

08-09-2013, 01:11 AM

ok this is a game changer!!! great work Wayne!

I think a turbo 6 could make this little car a real hyper unit!

Silvertop

08-09-2013, 08:06 AM

I'd be just a little bit nervous about that .300" clearance between the timing covers and the frame though. Engines DO move a little on their mounts usually. Might have to make some minor frame alterations. But yes, it's tempting, isn't it?

Personally, I think adding a turbo would be overkill. The thing would probably be bordering on stupid fast in NA mode. But that's just my getting-to-be-an-old-guy opinion. Whatever floats your boat!

tirod

08-09-2013, 10:28 AM

Now some of the pressure is off buying up all the WRX wrecks. I see your sneaky game plan, diverting attention to the H6.

It's completely natural of course - if some's good, more's better. Enough people beating Dave up on the H6 will likely get some attention to making it an option, the MkII would get a "firewall" upgrade to fit better, etc.

So, finish that car and give Dave the keys. You know he will be hooked. >;E

RM1SepEx

08-09-2013, 11:27 AM

set the drivetrain back an inch, the CV's should handle the small longitudinal offset... slight mod to the rear bodywork...

SkiRideDrive

08-09-2013, 11:44 AM

skullandbones

08-09-2013, 12:08 PM

I think someone will cram an EG33 (3.3 liter) into one of these. They are relatively cheap (not on the Subie enthusiasts radar yet) and can give enough HP with just NA. No replacement for displacement is still valid for small engines, too. Proving that you can put a H6 in without modification is going to open Pandora's box so to speak. Can't wait to see the first build with a six banger! WEK.

Wayne Presley

08-09-2013, 01:05 PM

Forgive my ignorance, but could any of the cars which include the more recent H6 (Found in the 2003–2009 Legacy 3.0R, Outback 3.0R and 2006–2007 Tribeca. according to Wiki) be a nearly complete donor? I believe many of these donors would have an auto so you may need to source a transmission and work around the wiring issues, but any comments on whether everything else should work?

Thanks!

None of those are complete donors, the vast majority of the H6's are automatics. The 2005 Legacy GT I pulled apart I was unable to use the lower control arms, rear knuckles, rear trailing arm, lateral links, and dash. The 2004 Outback that the H6 came out of had the same parts not usable plus the automatic trans.

SkiRideDrive

08-09-2013, 03:24 PM

Thanks for the info Wayne.

Turboguy

08-09-2013, 05:56 PM

Thank you VERY much for doing a test fit and letting us in on the results, Wayne!

Do you think the 1/4" or so clearance is going to be enough? I'm sure the frame and/or firewall could be modified to increase clearance in that area if need be.

I hope the H-6 uses a timing chain, as you'd almost certainly have to pull the motor to do a timing belt.

Flamshackle

08-09-2013, 06:17 PM

Movieman

08-09-2013, 09:54 PM

Stay tuned for next week when Wayne shows everyone how to install the engine from the Lemans winning Gulf Porsche 917-30 into an 818 by simply bending two small parts! :D
Wayne: Did I tell you that you impress the hell out of me!

Turboguy

08-10-2013, 08:08 AM

I think someone will cram an EG33 (3.3 liter) into one of these. They are relatively cheap (not on the Subie enthusiasts radar yet) and can give enough HP with just NA.

From previous discussions, it appears the EG33 is at least 2-3" longer than the EZ30R Wayne installed - with the EZ30 having only 0.300" clearance, the EG33 will likely require major work to make it fit. The EZ30R also comes from the factory with about 30HP more on tap to start.

Turboguy

08-10-2013, 08:46 AM

To add more fuel to the fire - an EZ30-H6 transplant into a 914:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLTLXkQirYM

Turboguy

08-10-2013, 08:55 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VJ_GzKj_J8

skullandbones

08-10-2013, 10:56 AM

From previous discussions, it appears the EG33 is at least 2-3" longer than the EZ30R Wayne installed - with the EZ30 having only 0.300" clearance, the EG33 will likely require major work to make it fit. The EZ30R also comes from the factory with about 30HP more on tap to start.

Yeah, I remember now. That will take a skilled fabricator to pull that one off! Thanks, WEK.

AMW1011

08-10-2013, 04:13 PM

From previous discussions, it appears the EG33 is at least 2-3" longer than the EZ30R Wayne installed - with the EZ30 having only 0.300" clearance, the EG33 will likely require major work to make it fit. The EZ30R also comes from the factory with about 30HP more on tap to start.

Yeppers, the EZ30r came with about 250hp and the EZ30 came with about 212hp. The heads on the EZ30 aren't conductive to FI, so if you wanna turbo you need to go for the EZ30r or convert an EZ30.

StatGSR

08-11-2013, 09:42 PM

I ran the donor yesterday morning with the cat back off of it and it sounds so sweet.

I understand the feeling, did the same to my SVX donor before swapping it into my legacy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW3ZDPyx_JY

riptide motorsport

08-11-2013, 09:53 PM

That is soo cool..........right up my alley.

SkiRideDrive

08-11-2013, 10:58 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VJ_GzKj_J8

oh my god. This is amazing.

I checked ebay quickly and it seems there are a few JDM EZ30's for sale. Is anyone aware of any reason why that couldn't be an option?

PhyrraM

08-12-2013, 12:17 PM

The earlier, non "r", EZ30s came in car that could be a partial donor for the front suspension pieces. The 2000-2004 Legacy/Outback uses the same crossmember based front parts as the Impreza. The rear suspension is different and would need to be sourced from another appropriate car.

No H6 came to the North American market with a manual transmission from the factory.

Xusia

08-12-2013, 01:35 PM

oh my god. This is amazing.

I checked ebay quickly and it seems there are a few JDM EZ30's for sale. Is anyone aware of any reason why that couldn't be an option?

Engine management??

Turboguy

08-12-2013, 02:05 PM

Engine management??

For those already building with an aftermarket body harness, why not go for standalone engine management?

Wayne of Very Cool Parts (a forum sponsor and LONG time FFR builder) sells the TEC systems plus there are outside solutions like Motec or Link to name a few. It's no biggie.

nikbrewer

08-12-2013, 04:44 PM

would this be a good deal / fit?

http://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/pts/3916320729.html

its local to me

D K

08-12-2013, 05:20 PM

How much ground clearance under the stock oil pan?

Wayne Presley

08-12-2013, 08:06 PM

Engine management??

I can set you up with an Electromotive TEC-GT, MS3Pro or any other ECU that you want (AEM, FAST, Haltech, etc.).

For those already building with an aftermarket body harness, why not go for standalone engine management?

Wayne of Very Cool Parts (a forum sponsor and LONG time FFR builder) sells the TEC systems plus there are outside solutions like Motec or Link to name a few. It's no biggie.

How much ground clearance under the stock oil pan?
The stock oil pan is approximately the same height as the 2.5L

would this be a good deal / fit?

http://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/pts/3916320729.html

its local to me
No

Ironhydroxide

08-12-2013, 11:30 PM

this tells me that with a little modification to the fuel cell, one CAN fit the EG33.....

Wayne Presley

08-13-2013, 06:42 AM

this tells me that with a little modification to the fuel cell, one CAN fit the EG33.....

Uh, no. the frame was .300" from the motor and the fuel tank is 2" in front of that.

tirod

08-13-2013, 07:55 AM

Somebody with some serious fab and welding skills could do it. Likely Wayne will post up the complete transplant a week after somebody sends him a free engine. <--- HINT

After that will be the Ford Ecoboost V6. The Miata guys are looking into that, about 28" from front to back. 400hp.

Just pouring fuel on the fire. : )

Oh, wait, it goes in sideways, hmm. Make that 12.5" from centerline of the crank to the outside of the valve cover. Should be room for the turbo. I guess we need to know what the CV shaft centerline to the "front" of the motor is. That tells all.

flynntuna

08-13-2013, 11:11 AM

So what would be the most effective way to modify the frame? Perhaps cutting out the X bracing and replacing it with plate steel? Or moving the motor mounts back an inch? Any ideas?

Silvertop

08-13-2013, 11:28 AM

So what would be the most effective way to modify the frame? Perhaps cutting out the X bracing and replacing it with plate steel? Or moving the motor mounts back an inch? Any ideas?

I'm just speculating -- and I'm no automotive engineer. By my guess would that it would be more desirable to move the motor mounts back an inch or so. No compromise to the frame strength, and it seems to me that the operational geometry ( I like to use fancy words when I don't know what I'm talking about:rolleyes:) would tolerate the slight change in angle of the half-shafts..... But I know nothing.............

Wayne Presley

08-13-2013, 02:11 PM

So what would be the most effective way to modify the frame? Perhaps cutting out the X bracing and replacing it with plate steel? Or moving the motor mounts back an inch? Any ideas?
The EG 33 is a no go in my opinion. The EZ30 will fit with just a minor tweak.

I'm just speculating -- and I'm no automotive engineer. By my guess would that it would be more desirable to move the motor mounts back an inch or so. No compromise to the frame strength, and it seems to me that the operational geometry ( I like to use fancy words when I don't know what I'm talking about:rolleyes:) would tolerate the slight change in angle of the half-shafts..... But I know nothing.............

The half shafts already are rearward of centerline of the outer CV, you shouldn't move them much farther rearward.

Ironhydroxide

08-13-2013, 11:58 PM

Uh, no. the frame was .300" from the motor and the fuel tank is 2" in front of that.

YES, but one can modify... sorry if I didn't mention modifying the frame.

And the EG33 isnt' THAT much bigger than the EZ30D I'm not sure which thread I posted it in, but i have comparison pictures of crank lengths of the EG33, ez30D and EJ20(5)

Xusia

08-14-2013, 12:26 AM

skullandbones

08-14-2013, 01:24 AM

NOT trying to stir anything up; just trying to understand... Given the relative ease with with which the EZ series motors will fit, what is the appeal of an EG? A stock EZ36 produces more HP than a stock EG33.

I was searching for info on that engine and a couple of sites mentioned that is was quite a bit cheaper than the EZ series. One account stated that a front half of whatever model the engine came in was sold for 2K. Don't know how true that is. Just saw it while I was checking out the different hits.

Ironhydroxide

08-14-2013, 01:47 AM

NOT trying to stir anything up; just trying to understand... Given the relative ease with with which the EZ series motors will fit, what is the appeal of an EG? A stock EZ36 produces more HP than a stock EG33.
Personally i like the EG33 MUCH better than i do the EZ30. It's easier, cheaper, stronger, better.
Theres a company here local called "metric Motors Extreme" who builds Subaru engines specifically for "off road use" or for Sandrails. they make and sell an EG33 with a midsize turbo. advertized 600BHP on a built bottom end. BUT the real kicker is, they get 400hp advertized on "low mileage blocks" (unbuilt, unrebuilt, stock engines) Check the bottom of this page http://metricmotorsxtreme.com/engines.html#33600

The where the EG33 and the EZ30 differ:

Rod/crank bearing thicknesses. The EG33 is roughly 130% of the EZ30.

Valve Timing drivetrain. The EG33 is a belt that drives the exhast cams, the intake cams are driven from helical gears off the exhaust cam. EZ30 is Full Cam chain (2 of them iirc).

price. An EG33 can be had for around $600 if one takes the time to look. and for $2000 if you want an entire car with it. EZ30 is roughly $1500 for engine alone (depending on source)

Swapability. EG33 ecu can be isolated quite simply from the rest of the harness in comparison to the EZ30, ez30 has MANY more security issues, especially the VDC versions (vehicle Dynamic Control)

Heads. Ez30 is a single port exhaust for ALL 3 cylinders (6 valves), EG33 is a triple port design, 2 valves (one cylinder) per port.

Wayne Presley

08-14-2013, 06:17 AM

Only the early EZ30's have the single exhaust port, the later ones have 3 ports and AVCS.

Frank818

08-14-2013, 06:55 AM

Only the early EZ30's have the single exhaust port, the later ones have 3 ports and AVCS.

Correct. The EZ30D has single port and no AVSC/AVLS and the EZ30R has 3 ports + AVSC/AVLS.

Desertrunner

08-14-2013, 07:16 AM

From previous discussions, it appears the EG33 is at least 2-3" longer than the EZ30R Wayne installed - with the EZ30 having only 0.300" clearance, the EG33 will likely require major work to make it fit. The EZ30R also comes from the factory with about 30HP more on tap to start.

From my experiance the EG33 is more powerfull off the shelf then the EZ30R but I could be wrong. Also if you are thinking of sticking a turbo on the EG33 is far stronger.
Tony

Frank818

08-14-2013, 07:31 AM

Personally i like the EG33 MUCH better than i do the EZ30. It's easier, cheaper, stronger, better.
Theres a company here local called "metric Motors Extreme" who builds Subaru engines specifically for "off road use" or for Sandrails. they make and sell an EG33 with a midsize turbo. advertized 600BHP on a built bottom end. BUT the real kicker is, they get 400hp advertized on "low mileage blocks" (unbuilt, unrebuilt, stock engines) Check the bottom of this page http://metricmotorsxtreme.com/engines.html#33600

Do they offer street versions with less power and no race fuel?
Like 350-400whp range or something.

Turboguy

08-14-2013, 07:47 AM

From my experiance the EG33 is more powerfull off the shelf then the EZ30R but I could be wrong. Also if you are thinking of sticking a turbo on the EG33 is far stronger.
Tony

Unfortunately, you are not correct. The EZ30 has more HP and torque out of the box than the EG33. Perrin turbocharged and built an EZ30R up to 600HP a few years back with stock bearings & crank, so your point about the EG33 being "stronger" would also seem to be incorrect, or at least "not applicable" for the 99.5% of people who are fine with less than 600HP :D

And the EG33 isnt' THAT much bigger than the EZ30D

I recall a difference of almost 3" -- and when you only have 0.300" to work with -and a frame and gas tank in the way- 3" is like having to go to the moon and back just to get milk.

Personally i like the EG33 MUCH better than i do the EZ30. It's easier, cheaper, stronger, better.

An EG33 can be had for around $600 if one takes the time to look...............EZ30 is roughly $1500 for engine alone

Theres a company here local called "metric Motors Extreme" who builds Subaru engines specifically for "off road use" or for Sandrails. they make and sell an EG33 with a midsize turbo. advertized 600BHP on a built bottom end.

Why don't you go price those motors out, and then come back and tell us how "affordable" the EG33 is?

Seriously, it's a little ridiculous talking about how cheap the EG33 solution is -quoting $600 for a worn out 20 year old used engine- and then throwing a 600HP spec out there from a fully built $17,300 RACE MOTOR.

By the time you price in a full rebuild that your 20 year old EG33 will require, it will ALSO be more expensive than a $1,500 low-mileage pull EZ30R. And that is BEFORE factoring in the costs to re-engineer and modify the 818 chassis and fuel cell to accept an EG33.

Personally, I think there's enough info out there that it's time to let the EG33 discussion just die. It just doesn't seem to make sense on any level to me.

The crowd looking at a flat-6 powered 818 should be thankful for the EZ30 solution, and buy Wayne a http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/smileys/smiley41.gif (or 2 or 3) for helping those of us who are considering a flat-6 IMMENSELY by doing this trial fit. Again a HUGE thank-you Wayne for taking the time to do this, and let us all in on the results.

Frank818

08-14-2013, 07:52 AM

About the EZ36D, I read on Wikipedia that "The offset connecting rod was designed to allow additional displacement from the same exterior dimensions." Does that mean the exterior dimensions of the EZ36D are the same as the EZ30? Or same as EG33? (which are a bit bigger than EZ30, right?)

Turboguy

08-14-2013, 08:05 AM

Yes, the EZ30 and EZ36 have the same external dimensions - this is because of the offset connecting rod technology they employ, allowing 20% more displacement out of the same block casting. For a totally stock installation that will not see insane RPM levels, the EZ36 might be a great 818 solution for some. However, I don't know that I would try to run the offset connecting rod technology to 8,000RPM.

Frank- the EG33 is not just "a bit bigger" than the EZ30R it is a "lot" bigger. The EZ30R is essentially a flat-6 engine that fits in the same space as Subaru's EJ-series 4 cylinder turbo motors (which power the STi and WRX).

After that will be the Ford Ecoboost V6. The Miata guys are looking into that, about 28" from front to back. 400hp.

Just pouring fuel on the fire. : )

The big selling point for most people looking seriously at using the Subaru flat-6 motors being discussed here is to get that exotic "Porsche" flat-6 sound.

Putting in a garden variety 'merican motor certainly isn't going to cut it for them. Builders just looking for lots of HP and TQ would be far better off sticking with Subaru's EJ25 series turbo motors - they will eat ford's ecocrap for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They're also cheap, easily modified, and have HUGE aftermarket support.

Frank818

08-14-2013, 08:41 AM

Yes, the EZ30 and EZ36 have the same external dimensions - this is because of the offset connecting rod technology they employ, allowing 20% more displacement out of the same block casting. For a totally stock installation that will not see insane RPM levels, the EZ36 might be a great 818 solution for some. However, I don't know that I would try to run the offset connecting rod technology to 8,000RPM.

So one could think there are great chances the EZ36 physically fits the engine bay. Now I don't know the engine enough to tell if the other parts (axles, diff, tranny, hoses, etc.) will fit without too many tweaks or not...

Not sure I'd go with an EZ36, but I like the idea to know the options so I can be happy and proud to make the best choice for my needs. :) I have to take into account the sound, as this is really important to me. Building a 30-35k kit and having an excellent sound that I'd be happy about but would know I could have had better is one thing. Building a 35-40k kit with a super awesome sound throughout the rpm band and at idle that I'd be crazy about all the time knowing it's amongst the best I can get, that is another thing. :)

Turboguy

08-14-2013, 08:51 AM

If the EZ30R fits, I cannot imagine the EZ36D NOT fitting. Any issues would most likely surround ancillaries mounted on the engine. Tranny, and therefore diff & axle issues too, would be the same as faced with the EZ30R - bolt up to a Subaru EJ-series WRX or STi tranny (although the STi tranny is an unconfirmed fit in the 818 application as of now) and you are good to go!

If you would have fun at $30-35K Frank, then you'll be through the roof when I say that you could build an 818 with THIS flat-6 engine and aftermarket engine management for under $25K. Wrap-it instead of painting it and you could even be less than that!

Frank818

08-14-2013, 09:04 AM

Are you saying the EZ36D is usually cheaper than the EZ30R?

tirod

08-14-2013, 09:42 AM

Putting in a garden variety 'merican motor certainly isn't going to cut it for them. Builders just looking for lots of HP and TQ would be far better off sticking with Subaru's EJ25 series turbo motors - they will eat ford's ecocrap for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They're also cheap, easily modified, and have HUGE aftermarket support.

Hmm. 400hp stock vs 300. Both are aluminum block OHC with turbos - yep, garden variety these days. Fords got their F150's with them and still going strong, the 2015 CAFE standards will push production even more.

The future of finding Ecoboost in over 60% of new Ford truck in the wrecking yard means that cheap will be possible. Easy mods are up to the aftermarket in either case, JDI, etc aren't here on this turf with much advertising. The West Coast hipo makers aren't going to die off with the baby boomers, they need something like this to move forward. Subaru isn't where they have much presence.

If GM would drop two cylinders off the LS same as they did with the 4.3, which needs replacing, then we have another. And Dodge can do the same with the Hemi, drop two cylinders, keep the name. Put them in two door sedans and the streets are going to be a bit cluttered with turbo V6 aluminum block overhead cam hot rods with 400hp. I like my Forester, but really - it's a ecobrand for nerds (I are one.)

Let's not forget - F5 built a separate chassis for the Subaru, but any of these turbosixes will drop into a Roadster, Coupe, or Spyder. 400hp is 400hp, you get a stock reliable motor, not an overworked 5.0 stroker.

An 818 with a 400hp stock Ecoboost would run about 5 pounds per hp. The Subie is 6#/hp. Who needs the aftermarket when you have a clear advantage?

Maybe I'm saving up for the wrong kit.

Xusia

08-14-2013, 09:53 AM

Frank818

08-14-2013, 09:57 AM

To me what matters is "which engines will fit without mods" and "which engines will fit with minor tweaks/different parts". Once I'll know these 2 lists, I'll dig around trying to understand which one is better for which type of application (high rev, strength, low end torque, etc.) and I'll make my choice. But that only depends on me, like you're saying.

PhyrraM

08-14-2013, 10:45 AM

Mechanically stock EZ36
Affordable aftermarket ECU - tuned to about 270-300 HP (91-93 octane, up from OEM 87) with a OEMish (aka. "flat as Kansas") torque curve (or flashed Euro manual tranny ECU)
Newer 5 speed w/3.9 ring and pinion (swap a FWD 3.7 R&P if you want to open the box)

Wayne Presley

08-14-2013, 09:48 PM

I'll let you know how it runs after I get the GRM guys finished. Might post a video...

Frank818

08-15-2013, 07:03 AM

Yeah definitely interesting to know how it runs. :)
And how it sounds, for the most of it. :D

Just make sure you don't need to remove the cam bolts, hey? lolll :P

Cj_

08-15-2013, 05:53 PM

EZ30 Turbo? I dont think you can beat that sound!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKucEGay3c

Frank818

08-15-2013, 06:46 PM

Wow!!!! And there are more on the tube of that same car.

Here's the project: http://www.pulseracing.com.au/TwinTurboH6Liberty.htm

They are in Australia though... I wonder if SilverTop (he's the one in NZ right?) will take a look at this. :)

Silvertop

08-15-2013, 11:21 PM

Frank818

08-16-2013, 06:44 AM

No, I'm in Minnesota. You're thinking of Flamshackle. He's in NZ.

Yeah you 2 have an almost identical avatar. :)
Sorry for mixing MN and NZ! lolll

tirod

08-16-2013, 08:39 AM

Hey guys, this is exactly the kind of crud I DIDN'T want to stir up. Everyone's goals, desires, and preferences are different. FFR will most likely do with the 818 what they have done on other kits: Offer the customer options, specifically engine options. That way each can get what THEY want.

In summary, to each his own. Now can we please stop the "which engine is better" debate? Thanks! :)

Yes, I have no doubt F5 has some stuff on the bulletin board about other potential engines. It's part and parcel of the kit industry to respond to customer demands. Like, using the Chevy LS motor. Plenty of posts on that. Not on topic.

But, really, asking for guys to not debate the various merits of engine design? Buahahaha. It's tied into our endicrinological conditioning, so to speak. We already have that here, if a 4 is good, a 6 is better, and a big 6, even better yet.

Anybody know of a cheap W8 we could use? No?

An important point tho - what transmission are we talking about? Playing motor roulette is fun, but we don't have fun with CV's flailing around and 80-90 dripping from a large chunk of what's left on the mounts. Do these motors all use the same transmission? I'm new at owning a Subaru, what transmissions fit what motors fit what horsepower levels?

I've blown up more than my share of little three speeds in the day. I'm not wanting to go thru that learning curve again.

Silvertop

08-16-2013, 09:30 AM

Yeah you 2 have an almost identical avatar. :)
Sorry for mixing MN and NZ! lolll

No Worries, Mate! :) (just to confuse the issue).

StatGSR

08-16-2013, 03:29 PM

Do these motors all use the same transmission? I'm new at owning a Subaru, what transmissions fit what motors fit what horsepower levels?

The reason we are talking specifically about the Subaru EZ30, EZ36, and EG33 H6s are because each one bolts up to an EJ2X transmission and uses the same or similarly placed motor mounts as the EJ2X. So when your start throwing out ideas like W8s, LSX, V6ecoboost, its easy to ignore, because they are not even in remotely the same category of difficulty we are talking about with the Subaru H6s.

Flamshackle

08-16-2013, 05:01 PM

Frank818

08-16-2013, 08:33 PM

I will be sticking with the JDM 2.0 when the time comes.

That's pretty good too, what are your reasons?
Curious to see what would drive someone to prefer the 2.0 over the 3.0. $$ probably, but what else.

StatGSR

08-16-2013, 09:04 PM

Because it is going to be significantly cheaper and easier to make more power with the 2.0 and I can't bad mouth the the 8000 rpm redline of the jdm 2.0 either, should be a very fun motor for the 818.

I think the h6s are great... until you want to modify them...

Xusia

08-16-2013, 10:38 PM

In my opinion, the main reason to choose an H6 is the sound and lack of turbo componentry and associated hassles. If power is your goal, the turbo H4's are are definitely better suited to that task.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the smooth, linear throttle response and flat torque curve!

Flamshackle

08-17-2013, 12:31 AM

That's pretty good too, what are your reasons?
Curious to see what would drive someone to prefer the 2.0 over the 3.0. $$ probably, but what else.

Higher revving suits a lighter car, more than ample power potential, JDM 2.0 is std issue in New Zealand.

Flamshackle

08-17-2013, 12:32 AM

Canadian818

08-17-2013, 08:00 AM

I've been spending my usual FFR forum reading time these past few days on EZ30R swaps. Engines can be had for about $1500, but expect to spend about the same or more on engine management. So it'll cost you about the same as a version 7 or 8 EJ20. And on top of that you'll probably need different headers. Once the STI transmission is an option, the EJ can "fairly" easily be bumped up to 350+hp. Much more and you'll need to look at internals. Not sure how many EZ30R's are turbo without building the block, but once you do the sky is the limit. If 300-350 is your end goal, H4 is your best option. But if you feel the need to make 500hp+ on pump gas with a usable powerband, well, bring your wallet and build that EZ.

Again, no expert here, just info I've gathered online in a few days.

Xusia

08-17-2013, 10:03 AM

Yeah, cost really isn't a reason to use an EZ series engine. Unless your goal is spend a lot of money, that is! LOL

C.Plavan

08-17-2013, 10:41 AM

I would also guess the EJ is lighter than the EZ.

skullandbones

08-17-2013, 01:36 PM

I think the idea of being able to put an H6 in the 818 without modification (TBD: exhaust, etc), is just crazy. It would mean it only increases the popularity of this FFR. There are probably lots of people out there that would rather spend some extra on EM and get the H6 with the cool sounds and good HP and torque out of the box and still NA (not interested in further mods). So except for the wiring and exhaust, it would be a bolt in. I have friends with roadsters that have stock 5.0 HO and love them. I have ridden in one. There was nothing disappointing in it at all with just 225 HP. So there will be a group of people who gravitate to this project just because of the possibility. Just like there will be a group that is interested in the 818 for a high mpg vehicle, this can't hurt.

StatGSR

08-17-2013, 02:01 PM

I would also guess the EJ is lighter than the EZ.

once you consider the turbo and extra piping associated with that, its pretty much the same or negligible.

Frank818

08-18-2013, 07:11 AM

StatGSR

08-18-2013, 09:17 AM

If one remains NA on the EZ but would like more power, I have looked around for NA parts like better flowing manif, cams, remapped ECU, etc. and I haven't found much. Are there performance parts for the EZ that increase power to the max the NA build can take? COBB has a remapped ECU, but besides that?

There pretty much isn't anything off the shelf for any of the Subaru H6's. most people don't realize that pretty much every part on any H6 build they have seen is custom and or one off. you should be able to get a decent amount of power from some long tube headers and a proper tune, one could ask Delta if they offer reground cams as well.

I know if i was going with an H6 it would because I was ok with the power out of the box and would rather leave it alone and enjoy the reliability of a stock engine than try to build it and push it to its to its breaking point, a guy could spend a lot of money chasing power they either wont get or will just result in a busted motor.

tirod

08-18-2013, 11:42 AM

There's another off the wall option, a belt driven centrifugal supercharger like the Rotrax. Most engines can handle 6-8 pounds of boost, and the tech to modify things is pretty open source on the internet. It would add 50-80 hp, I guess, and would plumb into the existing intake setup fairly easy.

If options feel like you are getting boxed in, then think out of the box. When there is a lack of performance parts available, the supercharger is then a viable option for the same amount of money you would have spent getting them. A belt driven supercharger generally comes in at a lower rpm, which is exactly where it needs to be when dealing with a stock bottom end. More torque in the 1800-4500 band equals more usable power without stressing parts not really intended to carry it over 5,000 rpm. You don't have to undersize a turbo to get it to spool up faster, then add a blow off valve because the map is too efficient.

With a previously NA H6, you aren't stuck for a new set of headers, intake, cams, etc. At least until it blows up. :rolleyes:

Turboguy

08-18-2013, 01:07 PM

I know if i was going with an H6 it would because I was ok with the power out of the box and would rather leave it alone and enjoy the reliability of a stock engine than try to build it and push it to its to its breaking point, a guy could spend a lot of money chasing power they either wont get or will just result in a busted motor.

Again- from what I've seen most people considering the H-6 are doing so because getting that flat-6 engine "sound" is high on their priority list. So, in a way, it's kind of like someone telling us how bad pizza is for us when we are all talking about how much we like eating apples.

As for "chasing power they won't get", I'm really not sure about that. After all, the H-6 swapped STi that Perrin built up a few years ago put down 600HP and 550 ft-lbs of torque - at the wheels. Try doing THAT with a 2 liter WRX motor. Again, pure HP isn't what I'm in it for, but for those that want to go that way.......the world appears to be your oyster.

Wayne Presley

08-18-2013, 01:08 PM

You don't have to undersize a turbo to get it to spool up faster, then add a blow off valve because the map is too efficient.

Say what? Blow off valves only job is to protect the compressor wheel from surge damage and not to release excess pressure.

You size the turbine housing to get the spool up rpm you want. The trade off is you make by down sizing the turbine AR is the total flow of the housing becomes the HP restriction. The compressor size is chosen based on the pressure ratio needed and CFM required for the HP desired.

Flamshackle

08-18-2013, 02:26 PM

StatGSR

08-18-2013, 03:12 PM

Again- from what I've seen most people considering the H-6 are doing so because getting that flat-6 engine "sound" is high on their priority list. So, in a way, it's kind of like someone telling us how bad pizza is for us when we are all talking about how much we like eating apples.

As for "chasing power they won't get", I'm really not sure about that. After all, the H-6 swapped STi that Perrin built up a few years ago put down 600HP and 550 ft-lbs of torque - at the wheels. Try doing THAT with a 2 liter WRX motor. Again, pure HP isn't what I'm in it for, but for those that want to go that way.......the world appears to be your oyster.

your preaching to the wrong guy, I'm have been part of the H6 bandwagon since the 818 was first announced, i have an H6 swapped legacy, i have looked up a thing or two about them over the last several years. i also know that its an engine where it wouldn't pay to try to make reliable power over stock.

Perrin built a one off show car for Sema to show what they could do, yes it made power, but you can throw boost at anything and make power, its how long its going to live making that power that is the important part. There is a good reason that car and engine dropped off the face of the earth many years ago. i suspect it cost a small fortune to make that much power and/or it broke within a year and wasn't worth fixing.

in any case you don't need 550ft-lb of torque in an 818, unless you are looking for a dyno queen or a show car...

Desertrunner

08-18-2013, 04:40 PM

Before anyone jumps up and down I understand currently the EG33 doesn't fit in the 818, my purpose of posting is to share what we are doing with this engine.
Currently we are working on getting the EG33 to run at 10k and increase the peak torque which will mean that if we hold torque it will develop a lot of power off the shelf (target between 350 to 400kw).
The aim is to only change the rods which is a cost of $1,300 and get the cams reground at about $200 bucks, and a new ECU there is also required some mods to the cooling system on the engine as well. The rest of the current engine is tough enough to take anything you can throw at it. Most people say we need to replace the pistons as well which is not correct and we have the perfect proof from a recent event. A couple of weeks ago one of my engines/cars went under water when running during a river crossing. The engine broke 2 rods and punched a hole in the engine block when we pulled it down the pistons were still okay as was crank etc. it was the rods that gave way.
For a whole lot of personal reasons I only work on the Subaru EG33 and for that purpose I have a engine dyno and about 15 spare engines for the development of this project.

The point made earlier is correct there are not many bits for the Subaru engines and I think there are a lot of assumptions made about what needs replacing. Also feel every engine doesn't need a turbo up its *** you can move the revs up and improve the cams to get reasonable gains.

Tony

Canadian818

08-18-2013, 06:00 PM

If anyone has any good EZ30 build threads or info to share please do! Most of what I'm finding is swaps into older impreza RS's. And most of them appear stock. I'm more interested in the turbo H6's, and while there are lots of them mentioned, I'm not finding much info.

Personally I've been up in the air on what engine to use. First i was EJ255 all the way, and was seriously going to consider twin turbocharging it. Then after not finding any affordable donors, i picked up a NA impreza, and figured I'd go with a jdm EJ207. Cheap (around 3k), and capable of destroying my transmission without building the motor. As i type that, I'm realizing its still the best option. However....

I was dead set on getting a used 996 turbo before settling on the 818. After building a new house, I didn't have quite 40-50k, so i was going to get a loan for probably half. The more i thought about paying off a toy, and not modifying it until it was, well, it would suck. But by that point i was already in love with the car. So the idea of a 500hp, twin turbo H6 still being possible is too much to ignore. Obviously the 500hp is not stage one for me, but 200+hp, a flat torque curve, and possibly one of the sweetest sounding 818's is a good start. And once I've got all i can out of that setup at the track, 6 speed and turbos!

Also for those considering. Many of the standalone ECU's come with traction control and launch control. So if you were considering the race logic setup, take $1000 off your budget!

Xusia

08-18-2013, 06:04 PM

Frank818

08-18-2013, 06:28 PM

As for "chasing power they won't get", I'm really not sure about that. After all, the H-6 swapped STi that Perrin built up a few years ago put down 600HP and 550 ft-lbs of torque - at the wheels.

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/perrin-h6-build-up/

But they don't seem to offer the kit on their website (I don't want that crazy kit though!). Or any reliable turbo H6 kit (with less power).
Sound is high on my list, but I also want somewhere 325-350whp/wtq, reliably. Unless Perrin sells a nice reliable turbo kit that is not on their website, or if I find a place where they do, I won't start R&Ding for years on a one off of my own turbo kit, like I did with my current (for sale) car. Been there done that, now I want to build a car, not an engine and a full map. :) Anyway, I got time before my car is sold so I'll keep my eyes open and will see. That is also why I ask many questions around. :) To learn and see the options.

Canadian818

08-18-2013, 07:56 PM

Canadian818, what are your goals in regards to the engine? Purely power? Sound? Throttle response? And don't just say "yes!" - there are always trade-offs. You have to prioritize. Once you've decided on your goals, then picking an appropriate engine to meet those goals will be much easier (and it will be easier for other folks to help you).

My goal is an ever changing one. I love fabricating, and being different. There will always be someone with more money, so tackling something harder, that money alone won't solve, has its appeal. But most important, I need to be afraid to push the car 100%, it's not fun if I can calmly push past that point. My view on sport bikes was always if I'm not afraid of it, it's time for a bigger bike, lol. I don't ride sport bikes anymore... Haha

Xusia

08-19-2013, 12:48 PM

Tackling something harder, along with wanting to be scared, dictates a turbo H6 (at least to me). I wouldn't do it, but we are different people and I wish you good luck on your mission - should you choose to accept it! :)

HelluvaEngineer

08-19-2013, 02:39 PM

Frank818

08-19-2013, 03:51 PM

Not to fan the flames any more on this thread. ;) But here is some performance information and aftermarket parts for the EZ30.

Headers http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=70

A thread with some information on the 3.0.
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/header-h6-17345p6.html

Here is a super charger
http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=58

edit: Fan the flames not flame the fires

Good, some more info, tnx. :)

Headers
205awhp/184awtq

SC (about 42% increase they say)
268awhp/???awtq (355bhp or 302whp at 15% loss)
At $5,200 I'd rather sacrifice sound for cheap JDM EJ207 blowing out 350whp/350wtq with more if I wanted later on. But that's my opinion. :)

flynntuna

08-19-2013, 05:03 PM

Not to fan the flames any more on this thread. ;) But here is some performance information and aftermarket parts for the EZ30.

Headers http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=70

A thread with some information on the 3.0.
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/header-h6-17345p6.html

Here is a super charger
http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=58

edit: Fan the flames not flame the fires

You've had better luck finding performance parts for the h6. I'm sure if this engine becomes popular a forum vendor will develop 818 specific headers to fit the frame.

tirod

08-20-2013, 09:16 AM

Thank you, Wayne, obviously my old school info on turbo sizing doesn't hold up these days. I guess Ak Miller moved on, too. That was gee, more than 30 years ago, now. I was looking at putting one on a 200 six in a Mustang. Went SBF and didn't look back.

Now, dropping a EZ into a 818 (or the 99 Forester parked outside,) that's interesting. Mechanically dirt simple from the pics, it's getting the wire loom integrated into a different car that would raise issues. Not for a kit, tho.

I suspect you used the donor loom and computer from the EZ, any info on that?

And in that vein, here's one done five years ago: http://www.ausubaru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10303

And hundreds of pages here: http://www.rs25.com/forums/f128/t84339-best-ever-h6-swap-thread.html

Turboguy

08-20-2013, 11:29 AM

I suspect you used the donor loom and computer from the EZ, any info on that?

Yes, it's been talked about.

if you do a search you will come across the "official H6 into an 818 thread" where all this has been covered before.

Wayne Presley

08-20-2013, 11:32 AM

I'm using a stand alone computer and stand alone car harness.

HelluvaEngineer

08-22-2013, 09:06 AM

I really like the idea of an EZ30 in the 818. My personal taste would be to keep it stock NA and do a few minor things. Headers, exhaust, K&N air cleaner and a good tune. Would probably get about 280HP to 300HP at the crank. If I get wild I could see a slightly reground cam and some stiffer springs to get a little more RPM out of it to take advantage of the cam.

But for those who are thinking crazy, I found another link to a 730HP build. The car ran low 9.13 in the 1/4 at close to 148.6 MPH. There are some comments about the pistons, rods and a company who did their reground cam.

http://www.417racing.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7930

HelluvaEngineer

08-22-2013, 09:33 AM

Here is a long read with details on the stock engine.

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/perrin-h6-build-up/

skullandbones

08-22-2013, 10:58 AM

That's interesting reading. It tells me that EZ30 stock = :) + 300HP and EZ30 machine work = $$$$! I could live with the slightly modified version. The low end torque, Porsche like sound, and all the advantages of an NA engine plus enough power to jerk your head back against the headrest would be enough for me. That's 6 to 1 wt/hp exactly the same as my roadster. WEK.

LesMurray

08-22-2013, 03:12 PM

I noted something interesting in the writeup in that the engine was a co-development between Subaru and Porsche. I wonder if this engine uses a Intermediate Shaft (IMS) for the valve timing chains? The M96 and M97 Porsche engines use an IMS bearing to support the shaft that is one of the weak links of that motor. Research IMS Settlement for details. I am just wondering how the valve timing chains are run on the H6 and if it presents a possible point of failure.

PhyrraM

08-23-2013, 11:03 AM

http://phantomotaku.com/SVX/011822-MSA5P0631C.pdf

On the early engines one cylinder bank is direct to the crank and the other is off an idler driven by the first.

On the 3.6 there are 3 chains. A short one from the crank to the idler and then each bank driven off of that.

I am no sure about the 'middle' year EZ30R, but I assume the 2 chain system.

SkiRideDrive

08-23-2013, 01:23 PM

Great info guys. Thinking out loud of possible way to approach and source necessary components for an ez30r build:

-NA Impreza donor, possibly already missing engine/transmission (I spotted a shell locally which could fit the bill for $500)
-5 speed transmission (various possibilities, perhaps legacy gt)
-EZ30R (maybe even one of the JDM ones that come in from Japan with low mileage)
-Electronics packages (Wayne has indicated above he may have this covered, but it seems you would need a computer to run the engine and perhaps another setup for various lighting and ancillaries)

I also believe the NA impreza brake system is less substantial than a wrx setup, so maybe the money saved on a NA impreza donor minus motor could be put towards a brembo setup. I also want to check into if there was any differences between 5 speeds shipped on the NA imprezas vs the WRX's.

jayguy

08-23-2013, 01:32 PM

Very cool link, thanks! Everything I wanted to know about the EZ30 and more.

Turboguy

08-23-2013, 05:25 PM

I noted something interesting in the writeup in that the engine was a co-development between Subaru and Porsche.

Actually, I believe it was just the variable valve lift system in the engine that they said was co-developed -- and I'm not sure that has been confirmed. The author of the article did mention that the components in the valve lift system were supplied by a German company, however.

I wonder if this engine uses a Intermediate Shaft (IMS) for the valve timing chains? The M96 and M97 Porsche engines use an IMS bearing to support the shaft that is one of the weak links of that motor.

On the early engines one cylinder bank is direct to the crank and the other is off an idler driven by the first.
On the 3.6 there are 3 chains. A short one from the crank to the idler and then each bank driven off of that.
I am no sure about the 'middle' year EZ30R, but I assume the 2 chain system.

The telling tale will be what type of bearings are used on the Subaru's "idler" shaft, how they are lubricated, and if they are exposed to circulating engine oil. As I recall, in the troubled Porsche's a "sealed" type bearing (that wasn't quite as 'sealed" as they first thought). It was used in a location where it was routinely submersed in engine oil. When you add in the ridiculously long oil change interval they spec -something like every 24,000 miles- you end up with contaminated oil washing out the grease that lubricates this bearing, resulting in an eventual failure.

Wayne Presley

08-23-2013, 07:55 PM

-Electronics packages (Wayne has indicated above he may have this covered, but it seems you would need a computer to run the engine and perhaps another setup for various lighting and ancillaries)

I definitely do have the electronics handled.

Xusia

08-23-2013, 11:04 PM

I also believe the NA impreza brake system is less substantial than a wrx setup, so maybe the money saved on a NA impreza donor minus motor could be put towards a brembo setup. I also want to check into if there was any differences between 5 speeds shipped on the NA imprezas vs the WRX's.

At that point you might also consider the Wilwood's FFR is offering as an option...

SkiRideDrive

08-23-2013, 11:36 PM

I definitely do have the electronics handled.

Wayne, I remember in the Grassroots videos you mentioned you may also be providing donor kits in the future, perhaps similar to the 818 donors crew. Would you consider offering a package which would include the H6/electronics along with the rest of the required donor materials? Juggling multiple donors in a community with an HOA could be difficult and a pallet would save a lot of time. Thanks for all your info!

SkiRideDrive

08-23-2013, 11:37 PM

At that point you might also consider the Wilwood's FFR is offering as an option...

That is precisely what I meant to type. I think I just had the supermoto bike on my mind which runs Brembos.

skullandbones

08-24-2013, 01:01 AM

I definitely do have the electronics handled.

Will the Electromotive EM system also have the other body harness circuits to make a complete system or is that a separate item? Thanks, WEK.

Flamshackle

08-24-2013, 06:48 AM

Ah! this thread is awesome!

So keen to hear from FFR about the future of this motor in the 818.

Wayne Presley

08-24-2013, 08:07 AM

Ah! this thread is awesome!

So keen to hear from FFR about the future of this motor in the 818.

Reread the first sentence of the thread.

"Disclaimer-FFR is not supporting the H6 in technical, parts or any other aspect. They are only supporting the 2.0 and 2.5L four cylinder engines. "

I am installing this motor because I like the sound. The 6 cylinder will make less HP than the built 2.0 I'm pulling out, will have to make a custom exhaust, custom water manifold for the dual water outlets, change the 4 cylinder TEC-S ECU for a 6 cylinder TEC-GT, rewire the new ECU and at least 5 other issues that I don't know about yet. It is not for the faint of heart.

Wayne Presley

08-24-2013, 08:10 AM

Will the Electromotive EM system also have the other body harness circuits to make a complete system or is that a separate item? Thanks, WEK.

I sell the Electromotive system with a stand alone harness for the car. On the GRM car they showed up with no electrical on the car at all, we installed the harness and 45 minutes later we fired the motor with a fully wired car.

Frank818

08-24-2013, 12:20 PM

we installed the harness and 45 minutes later we fired the motor with a fully wired car.

45mins of harness building, plugging and map setup?

Wayne Presley

08-24-2013, 01:27 PM

Frank818

08-24-2013, 01:32 PM

Oh ok! Got it. Thought you were starting from scratch, wire by wire, cutting and prepping them all one by one. :)

swine

08-24-2013, 03:35 PM

ok this is a game changer!!! great work Wayne!

I think a turbo 6 could make this little car a real hyper unit!

Uhh, well if we are talking power, the below is easily attainable, and affordable if you skip the head work. I believe thats all the hyper even the most daring drivers could handle, and thats a stock location turbo.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab43/CicioTopSpeed/Customer%20Cars/Banks%20D/banks-new_zpsc63ab656.jpg

skullandbones

08-24-2013, 04:22 PM

Frank, I sell a harness complete with Electromotive ECU that is pre built for the 818. You just lay the harness in the car, plug in the steering column connectors, plug in the engine connectors, plug in the dash connectors, hook up the battery and start the car. The ECU will come pre loaded with the base tune for the engine.

That just about brought a tear to my eye (tears of joy)!!! From way earlier discussions, it was pretty gloomy predictions of how it would be to get the wiring/ECU to work. Not knowing of a specific stand alone system was part of the ifyness of that discussion. So I have a question about the system. Now that you have said you will be a distributor and it will definitely work for the 818 (custom harness), will it be supported directly from California if there are issues or would we work through you? Do you have a ball park figure for a system like you did for GRM? Not trying to put you on the spot but this is such a big deal for going this route, it's important. If you would rather do it by PM that's OK too.

As far as the other mods, they sound pretty straightforward compared to some of the issues I've had with the roadster, like making room in my MKIII driver footbox for big feet and the brake and clutch placement and fitment. The only one that I'm not sure about is the exhaust modification (how much work!).

Thanks, Wayne. You've really let the genie out of the bottle! Thanks, WEK.

AZPete

08-24-2013, 05:54 PM

What he said. I mean WEK.

Wayne Presley

08-24-2013, 06:51 PM

The car harness, Electromotive TEC-S, software, engine harness and crank trigger wheel is $2100 for the 4 cylinder cars. The 6 cylinder cars will get the Electromotive TEC-GT and will be $2495.

Movieman

08-24-2013, 08:01 PM

Uhh, well if we are talking power, the below is easily attainable, and affordable if you skip the head work. I believe thats all the hyper even the most daring drivers could handle, and thats a stock location turbo.

If you take that lower figure of 418HP and use a wet weight of say 2100lbs with driver you are talking 5.02LBs/HP
Use the 466HP figure with the same parameters and your at 4.5LBs/HP
Yea, I think thats enough to add a spincter factor of 9.8 to the driving experience!
Of course if you used such a vechicle for a daily driver you'd have to add 20-30 minutes to your planned daily commute for the daily speeding ticket you'd be receiving.:D

Wayne Presley

08-24-2013, 08:10 PM

C6 Z06 is about 6.1lbs per FWHP for reference. 466 WHP would equate to 3.2lbs/FWHP at 1800 lbs

riptide motorsport

08-24-2013, 08:11 PM

Wow!

the car harness, electromotive tec-s, software, engine harness and crank trigger wheel is $2100 for the 4 cylinder cars. The 6 cylinder cars will get the electromotive tec-gt and will be $2495.

Xusia

08-24-2013, 11:31 PM

Am I missing something? What relevance does an E85 tune for a 2010 STi have on using an H6?

Turboguy

08-25-2013, 08:34 AM

Uhh, well if we are talking power, the below is easily attainable, and affordable if you skip the head work. I believe thats all the hyper even the most daring drivers could handle, and thats a stock location turbo.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab43/CicioTopSpeed/Customer%20Cars/Banks%20D/banks-new_zpsc63ab656.jpg

Awesome :rolleyes:

NOW - go figure out how to make it sound like a Porsche flat-6. Come back when you do, and not before.

Am I missing something? What relevance does an E85 tune for a 2010 STi have on using an H6?

It is about as relevant as the price of bananas is to someone who only eats apples.

You are not missing anything.

HelluvaEngineer

08-25-2013, 09:53 AM

Here is a graph for a turbo H6. Over 700HP From 5,200RPM to 6,500 RPM

20969

HelluvaEngineer

08-25-2013, 10:03 AM

Here is an interesting graph comparing an STi with the turbo H6. from Perrin.

edit: Why are the images so small?

20970

Wayne Presley

08-25-2013, 10:21 AM

Here is a graph for a turbo H6. Over 700HP From 5,200RPM to 6,500 RPM

20969

Here is an interesting graph comparing an STi with the turbo H6. from Perrin.

edit: Why are the images so small?

20970

None of those motors would be fun to drive on the street
3000 rpm 125 hp 200 tq
4000 rpm 260 hp 325 tq
5000 rpm 525 hp 550 tq

mobius

08-25-2013, 10:34 AM

Yea no power to 4k that would not be fun at all... I would much rather have 4-5oo hp and have usable 2-3000k up power band.

HelluvaEngineer

08-25-2013, 11:01 AM

Xusia

08-25-2013, 11:35 AM

Yep I agree. I was just comparing the STI engine chart posted. It would have similarly poor street drive-ability issues. Here is the plot with the smaller turbo on the H6. This one would be FUN on the street. 250 ft/lbs of wheel torque at 3K RPM. 440 peak Wheel HP.
Fun in my legacy GT, but probably to much for the 818. Unless there was some serious work on traction control

20971

I don't know. That last turbo H6 graph doesn't really look all that "good" to me. Comparing the two, you trading a LOT of midrange grunt (which admittedly could be a problem for such a light car) for a few peak HP (where I could see turbo lag being an issue). Which tune I would prefer would depend on throttle response and how they drive I think.

AMW1011

08-25-2013, 11:37 AM

Yep I agree. I was just comparing the STI engine chart posted. It would have similarly poor street drive-ability issues. Here is the plot with the smaller turbo on the H6. This one would be FUN on the street. 250 ft/lbs of wheel torque at 3K RPM. 440 peak Wheel HP.
Fun in my legacy GT, but probably to much for the 818. Unless there was some serious work on traction control

20971

Even that is a bit too aggressive. Its not necessarily the amount of power that would make that dangerous, but the way its delivered. With these little cars your going to want to tune for much more linear power. That would be fun in a legacy because the aggressive onset of power gives an even greater sense of speed, but in an 818 that onset will put you into a tree.

Your point still stands though, there is no greater power to be had from a turbocharged H6. The only performance advantage I could see would be having the slightly higher bottom end torque before the boost hits, but that's almost irrelevant.

Evan78

08-25-2013, 12:15 PM

If there's going to be a discussion of the 3.0 vs 2.5, the obvious point that should be made is that the H6 will make more low end power than a 2.5, just as the 2.5 has more low end than the 2.0. The chart HelluvaEngineer posted in post #134 shows a 3.0 vs 2.5 with different turbos. The point Perrin was making was that you could have identical low end to a 2.5 with way more top end. If those 2 setups had the same size turbo, you'd see the 3.0 chart shifted to the left, making more low end power than the 2.5.

I know this is obvious to many here, but it seems that some people only recall peak numbers, hence you get someone saying something like "check out this great H6 making 400whp" and someone comes along says "big deal, here's a 2.5 that makes 400whp, why bother with a 3.0?" even though the curves show that the power bands are different aside from having the same peak number.

Wayne Presley

08-25-2013, 01:29 PM

Frank818

08-25-2013, 01:30 PM

Don't know for others, but I want the flattest torque curve with around 325-350whp/wtq. Reliable of course. I don't care much about the rest and displacement. If the winner is a 2.0, so be it. I just won't have the Porsche sound. :)

skullandbones

08-25-2013, 02:18 PM

The performance discussions are interesting. It's hot rod human nature. I personally like a linear hp curve that bisects the graph and a flat torque curve. At least, that has always worked for me and the type of driving I like.

I would also like to see some of the other aspects of the H6 fitment. I wasn't sure if Wayne is installing the EZ30 just for kicks and taking back out or if he's going to build it that way or maybe one of each. I remember seeing some custom headers that might work well depending on how they clear the suspension components (of course, can't find it now). The angle of the flange/tubes can make all the difference in the world as to how well they would stay toward the centerline and miss the suspension links. A good TIG welder can fix that problem real quick and probably not even show they had been cut. WEK.

Wayne Presley

08-25-2013, 02:28 PM

There are spaces big enough to fit the exhaust through and I have 2 TIG welders and am not afraid to use them :D

Frank818

08-25-2013, 07:34 PM

The car harness, Electromotive TEC-S, software, engine harness and crank trigger wheel is $2100 for the 4 cylinder cars. The 6 cylinder cars will get the Electromotive TEC-GT and will be $2495.

So what are the advantages of such a system over a re-mapped OEM ECU using OEM harness?

Wayne Presley

08-25-2013, 07:56 PM

Fully programable ECU, the harness weighs 14 lbs vs 46 for the oem harness, you can add a turbo easily, change injector sizes, has CAN to run race dashes, run shift lights, boost control, data logging, harness just plugs into the motor and steering column just to name a few...

skullandbones

08-25-2013, 08:03 PM

I don't think you can find a OEM harness that will support a manual transmission with the EZ30. Aren't they all automatics? If you found one outside the US would it be something that could be upgraded and support your needs? I think you would be getting back into the discussions of maybe it can be done but how to do it exactly. JMO and past discussions, WEK.

Frank818

08-25-2013, 08:16 PM

Wayne, I see. That's what I thought. For those who want logging or easy upgradeability, it's a must.
But for those who will run OEM engine or a Stage x something from some kit or place somewhere which would have a re-mapped ECU, as long as they don't need logging or upgrade later on (and no race stuff), they'd be fine too.
So it's a matter of what are your intentions/needs, as pretty much anything else is around this car! lolll

Xusia

08-25-2013, 10:05 PM

These powerbands come from low compression ratios, large turbos and big turbine A/R just to make big HP numbers. They are not fun to drive. I've always been on the other side of the fence by doing higher compression and lower boost to get a moderate HP level, nearly zero lag and broad powerband. If I can get 270 RWHP with 6lbs of boost I'll be happy.

I knew there was a reason I liked you Wayne!

Don't know for others, but I want the flattest torque curve with around 325-350whp/wtq. Reliable of course. I don't care much about the rest and displacement. If the winner is a 2.0, so be it. I just won't have the Porsche sound. :)

Yep!

Xusia

08-25-2013, 10:06 PM

Question on the ECU, Wayne: Does the package previously mentioned (for the 4cyl) support multiple maps? For instance, if I wanted to switch between petrol and E85 tunes?

Wayne Presley

08-25-2013, 10:15 PM

Question on the ECU, Wayne: Does the package previously mentioned (for the 4cyl) support multiple maps? For instance, if I wanted to switch between petrol and E85 tunes?

Sure, you can have a map for either fuel. You will want to adjust the timing with E 85 as well as the fueling change.

Xusia

08-25-2013, 10:20 PM

I wasn't specific so I apologize. I meant, can these be switched on the fly? So if I run the tank to nearly empty on petrol, roll into the station, fill with E85, could I switch the map right there while I'm fueling without a computer or special tuner of any sort?

D K

08-26-2013, 02:10 AM

Does the TEC-s have more control than the vipec plug in?

Canadian818

08-26-2013, 07:05 AM

There are a number of standalone ecu's being used on ez30's, but I haven't come across anyone using the Tec-GT. Will it be able run the avcs?

So far the most common ones are Hydra (used by Perrin in '05), Link G4, and vipec v88. The last two appear to be identical hardware but branded and supported seperatly. All three have base maps available, run avcs, and have shops that make PnP harnesses.

Wayne Presley

08-26-2013, 08:41 AM

Does the TEC-s have more control than the vipec plug in? I am not familiar with the Vipec but since the TEC series will do everything I've ever needed and still had unused outputs I'd say yes.

There are a number of standalone ecu's being used on ez30's, but I haven't come across anyone using the Tec-GT. Will it be able run the avcs?

So far the most common ones are Hydra (used by Perrin in '05), Link G4, and vipec v88. The last two appear to be identical hardware but branded and supported seperatly. All three have base maps available, run avcs, and have shops that make PnP harnesses.

I've used the Hydra and worked decent on a turbo miata, I pulled one off a Lotus because it would never consistently work well. The PNP harnesses are great for a car like the WRX but not so much for the 818. Because why would you want to deal with the huge OEM harness, diet it down when you could get a car harness and flying harness for the engine. Or you could get a drop in harness from me with the ECU and have your car wired and running in 45 minutes?

HelluvaEngineer

08-26-2013, 10:05 AM

I am not familiar with the Vipec but since the TEC series will do everything I've ever needed and still had unused outputs I'd say yes.

I've used the Hydra and worked decent on a turbo miata, I pulled one off a Lotus because it would never consistently work well. The PNP harnesses are great for a car like the WRX but not so much for the 818. Because why would you want to deal with the huge OEM harness, diet it down when you could get a car harness and flying harness for the engine. Or you could get a drop in harness from me with the ECU and have your car wired and running in 45 minutes?

Here in Georgia, I will probably need to pass an OBDII emmision test. The test stations wont check for other compliance, but they will plug it into the computer, check the gas cap. I would love a drop in system for the EZ30 with a manual transmission. Will these computer systems work that way? If not, what would you recommend? I would probably either go NA or higher compression (9:1) and limit the boost to 6 or 7 pounds wit a small very responsive turbo.

Xusia

08-26-2013, 11:34 AM

D K

08-26-2013, 12:09 PM

I'll take Wayne's harness please...

Is the harness available separately, or only with the TEC-s?

Because why would you want to deal with the huge OEM harness, diet it down when you could get a car harness and flying harness for the engine. Or you could get a drop in harness from me with the ECU and have your car wired and running in 45 minutes?

Frank818

08-26-2013, 01:11 PM

Because why would you want to deal with the huge OEM harness, diet it down when you could get a car harness and flying harness for the engine. Or you could get a drop in harness from me with the ECU and have your car wired and running in 45 minutes?

Someone tight on his budget will probably go OEM, espacially if the intention is to plug OEM stuff, never upgrade and no need for race gizmos.
But with all the huge list of add-ons you have for us, we can't be tight on the budget, cuz we want all of them! lolll

Wayne Presley

08-27-2013, 01:48 PM

Asking again, because I think it got lost in the other questions:

I wasn't specific so I apologize. I meant, can these be switched on the fly? So if I run the tank to nearly empty on petrol, roll into the station, fill with E85, could I switch the map right there while I'm fueling without a computer or special tuner of any sort?

Yes you can. I have another more expensive ECU that uses a flex fuel sensor that measures the percentage of ethanol in the fuel and adjusts on the fly for the actual fuel going into the motor.

Xusia

08-27-2013, 02:21 PM

Wow. THAT's pretty cool. I was mostly asking for a future second build with an H6. For this build I'm planning on using the stock ECU, but plans can change so you never know.

Wayne Presley

08-29-2013, 08:25 AM

I'm taking out the built 2.0 out and putting the EZ30 in my car. Going to low boost it (6psi) and see how it runs.

Wayne Presley

08-29-2013, 08:30 AM

BTW, the turbo 2.0 weighs 345lbs (with turbo and intercooler) and the NA EZ30 weighs 350 lbs.

blueoval_bowtie_guy

08-29-2013, 09:49 AM

The change in weight is really going to throw off the balance. You might have to get heavier springs! :)

Canadian818

08-29-2013, 10:51 AM

I'm taking out the built 2.0 out and putting the EZ30 in my car. Going to low boost it (6psi) and see how it runs.

Are you boosting the engine stock? I haven't found much online about its limits with stock pistons. However, there is a supercharger kit for the tribeca that claims 100+hp reliably.

Movieman

08-29-2013, 12:21 PM

I can see it now..Wayne rolls this thing out of the garage..Lets it idle to warm up, then takes it for a "break in" ride and finds himself pulling wheelies like the "Little Red Wagon" from the 60's..:D

swine

08-29-2013, 01:09 PM

Awesome :rolleyes:

NOW - go figure out how to make it sound like a Porsche flat-6. Come back when you do, and not before.

It is about as relevant as the price of bananas is to someone who only eats apples.

You are not missing anything.

Awesome sarcasm.

The guy i quoted said "real hyper car" due to a turbo 6. I naturally assumed he was referring to hp potential. Hence why i said "if we are talking hp".

Im not trying to piss on anyones H6 dreams like you thought i was. An h6 will sound great and be a quick car with nice manners in regards to power delivery. More "hyper" then a properly prepared well built 4cyl? I dont think it would be fair to assume that.

Sorry for wasting your time man.

Anyways wayne, whats your plan for turbo'ing your 6? What kind of wtq and hp are you looking for? What size turbo, keeping the gt28 i assume?

Wayne Presley

08-29-2013, 01:20 PM

Are you boosting the engine stock? I haven't found much online about its limits with stock pistons. However, there is a supercharger kit for the tribeca that claims 100+hp reliably.

I'm going to boost the stock EZ30, there are plenty cars running around with 6 psi superchargers on stock engines.

Anyways Wayne, whats your plan for turbo'ing your 6? What kind of wtq and hp are you looking for? What size turbo, keeping the gt28 i assume?

I'm probably going with the GTX2871R or the GTX3071R and looking for 285-295 RWHP/TQ. The GTX series flow much better at low pressure ratios.

swine

08-29-2013, 01:46 PM

X3071 sounds like a real, real sweet match. Excited to see the results.

StatGSR

08-29-2013, 02:00 PM

Your using the "first gen" EZ30D from the 01-03 outback right Wayne? not the EZ30"R" from the 04+ models?

Turboguy

08-29-2013, 07:10 PM

I'm probably going with the GTX2871R or the GTX3071R and looking for 285-295 RWHP/TQ. The GTX series flow much better at low pressure ratios.

I seem to recall a performance shop "down under" claiming close to these numbers on a stock normally aspirated EZ30R running an intake, their long tube headers and re-mapped ECU. You might be able to push well past 300 RWHP with the setup you're planning!

Wayne Presley

08-29-2013, 10:12 PM

This is a EZ30D out of an 04 outback.

fateo66

08-29-2013, 11:02 PM

How many exhaust ports are on each head of yours Wayne, one or three?

Frank818

08-30-2013, 07:30 AM

That should be 1 exhaust port.
And no variable exhaust valves. Probably no AVLS as well.

So an EZ30R may produce more. If it can reach around 325rwhp/rwtq on 6-7psi, count me in!! :)

Wayne Presley

09-01-2013, 06:52 AM

How many exhaust ports are on each head of yours Wayne, one or three?
The D has one port, the R and EZ36 have 3.

Frank818

09-01-2013, 08:53 AM

Wayne, comparing the R fitment vs the D with regards to the exhaust ports, what is your opinion? How easier/harder would it be fitting the R?

May be easier than the D?
May be the same as the D?
May be harder than the D?
Don't have a freakin idea yet? lolll

Canadian818

09-01-2013, 11:29 AM

The R headers are going to be a little bigger, but not much more than a NA 2.5. I don't believe there's much there to get in the way.

skullandbones

09-01-2013, 01:52 PM

Not from a performance perspective but the single port versions would be much easier to plumb for a turbo, if you were fabbing it. IMO, WEK.

Frank818

09-01-2013, 02:05 PM

Is the R better suited for a twinscroll or it has nothing to do with 1 port vs 3 ports?

I gotta get a detailed pic of each engine and see the diff. I'm sure internet as all that.

StatGSR

09-01-2013, 10:11 PM

Realistically the R can benefit from revised collector (think long tube/long primary header) where as the D already has the primary porting within the head, so little can be done to improve flow there, this is more of a gain for staying NA. If your going turbo the D will just be easier to rig up as you wont have to worry about primary design, you can just take the two tubes and collect them where you please and take it to the turbo. The R is going to require more finesse and require more creativity while designing the primary section from each head. I don't think twinscroll or not has anything to do with it. Realistically the "log" manifold (similar to lower budget turbo Honda builds) approach could probably be applied to the R with plenty of success, it just would not be the "best" from an exhaust flow stand point, would be a slick way to run twin turbos though.

Honda "Log" Manifold
http://www.ipgparts.com/store/images/T/log%20manifold-01-01.jpg

Frank818

09-02-2013, 07:48 AM

So turboing the D may be a better idea than the R from a benefit stands point? Interesting. I understand the point about the exhaust ports and head, but I also mainly thought the variable stuff not present in the D would prevent it from getting a better tune than the R. May not work that way, though.

I mean the R is an upgraded version of the D.

This is what I understand:
The BE/BH version has a single exhaust port per head, alloy intake manifold, cable throttle, no AVCS/VVL etc. (That's Wayne's engine?)
The BL/BP version has triple exhaust ports per head, plastic intake manifold, electronic throttle, AVCS and VVL on the intake only.

StatGSR

09-02-2013, 09:23 AM

Yes, the R will always have more power potential, but depending on your ultimate goals, it could be a significantly easier/cheaper to work with standard D engine to achieve those goals (especially when talking about turbo charging either)

Frank818

09-02-2013, 09:37 AM

And the D is probably cheaper to buy.

So as far as my research go, the EZ30R (which is actually the 2nd gen of the EZ30D, apparently there is no such thing as an EZ30R) is found in the 2003–2009 Legacy 3.0R, Outback 3.0R and 2006–2007 Tribeca.

The EZ30D 1st gen (Wayne's), is found in the 2000–2002 Outback H6, Legacy GT30 and Legacy Lancaster 6. Never had a manual tranny, so I guess using the OEM ECU is not that easy if you turbo it and plug a manual tranny.

Both engines have a 10.7:1 CR.

BipDBo

09-11-2013, 10:09 AM

One more pic

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/20130808_101554_zps3048404d.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/20130808_101554_zps3048404d.jpg.html)

I hate to be the party pooper, but I have some concerns.

Can you even replace the serpentine belt or remove the appurtenances without disconnecting motor mounts?
My biggest pet peeve with modern cars is the lack of room to get your arm around or a wrench I the right place. Now you need a special tool for just about every nut on the car. Is that going to be a problem with this car?

Is there going to be enough airflow between the front of the engine and that aluminum panel? Normally, in a Legacy, there is a lot of airflow over that engine. In this installation, you are trapping heat. The Fisker Karma has really tight packaging under the hood and as a result, many of those cars turned to BBQs. I wouldn't be surprised if you melt that plastic timing chain cover or possibly worse. You may want to figure out a way to monitor the temperature the front of that engine the first couple of runs.

Wayne Presley

09-11-2013, 10:25 AM

I hate to be the party pooper, but I have some concerns.

Can you even replace the serpentine belt or remove the appurtenances without disconnecting motor mounts?

Yes, no problem at all

My biggest pet peeve with modern cars is the lack of room to get your arm around or a wrench I the right place. Now you need a special tool for just about every nut on the car. Is that going to be a problem with this car?
Nope

Is there going to be enough airflow between the front of the engine and that aluminum panel? I wouldn't be surprised if you melt that plastic timing chain cover or possibly worse.
If you look at the motor you will notice an aluminum timing cover, if that melts I have bigger problems....

BipDBo

09-11-2013, 10:59 AM

Yes, no problem at all

Nope

If you look at the motor you will notice an aluminum timing cover, if that melts I have bigger problems....

Fortunately, you'll always have plenty of access from the top and the sides with the 818.

For some reason, I was thinking that the EZ had a plastic cover over the serpentine belt. That would be very odd, though, to see a cover over the serpentine belt. Perhaps I was thinking about the timing chain cover on the EJ.

It still may be wise to stick a thermocouple to the front of that engine, and perhaps direct some airflow to that gap, just in case. Probably 90% of the engine heat leaves through coolant, so you're not likely to have a problem. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but since you're putting a fire wall where there is usually airflow, it couldn't hurt to be careful.

Frank818

09-15-2013, 07:13 AM

The car harness, Electromotive TEC-S, software, engine harness and crank trigger wheel is $2100 for the 4 cylinder cars. The 6 cylinder cars will get the Electromotive TEC-GT and will be $2495.

Wayne, I can't find if the TEC supports traction control?

Canadian818

09-15-2013, 11:36 AM

Wayne, I can't find if the TEC supports traction control?

Its hard to find anything on it. Its believe its specific to the WinTec4 software that the TEC-GT comes with, a few other models come with it now as well. However thats the extent of what i could find. I didn't see anything in the manual, and couldn't find any reviews or other info. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, maybe its just not commonly used, or maybe it sucks. If it was comparable to the race logic setup, it would be that much easier to justify going with Electromotive.

Frank818

09-15-2013, 06:58 PM

Well yeah basically that's what I try to do. 2500 (H6, the TEC-GT) + 1100 for RaceLogic. That would be sad. The DTA S80 has traction control, though I don't know how well/bad it works. And the DTA with full harness is probably around 1900-2000 (uses OEM sensors). 1200 if you just buy wires and do the harness yourself (which is what I did on my current car).

I'm sure Wayne knows the answer on traction control, as there is nothing he doesn't know, right? :D

Or maybe the 818 on proper tires, properly sized turbo and properly tuned engine there won't be much uncontrollable wheel spin.

Canadian818

09-15-2013, 09:08 PM

Hey frank, have you looked into sourcing a JDM EZ30R? I know most of the jdm engine importers are located in your neck of the woods, ironically. I haven't had any luck yet.

Frank818

09-16-2013, 09:01 AM

I didn't check yet, but yes there are importers less than 30mins from my home. I could put the engine in the trunk of my wagon and there goes free shipping. :)

I will certainly drop them a call at some point.
If you are seriously looking for the 3.0 before I get there, let me know and I'll start the quest.

Canadian818

09-16-2013, 12:58 PM

I'm just looking for some pricing right now, get a ball park price for the budget. If one can be had for a reasonable price I'll jump on it, otherwise I have a couple of months to wait. As long as I have it before Christmas I'll be happy.

Speedy G

09-17-2013, 12:20 PM

Wayne, I'm also thinking about fitting a different engine from what's recommended (VR6 3.2). I'm wondering if you could help me out with the dimensions of the engine bay. The width and the depth from middle of the axle to the firewall seem critical, but also it looks like the height could also be a problem.

Btw, it's awesome that you're trying to get a 6 cyl engine in that engine bay. They sound way better.

Speedy G

Frank818

09-17-2013, 12:56 PM

Well if you're swapping a VW 3.2 in there I may as well look into swapping my current 2.8 turbo! Maybe doing so + taking years to sell off the car in pieces might be worth it money-wise. Not a bad idea on how to give my great car (21 years, 65000 miles, 1 owner!) a respectful death...

But lots of questions... what about motor mounts, tranny mounts, which tranny to use (I have a 6-sp), engine height yes, etc...

Speedy G

09-17-2013, 03:32 PM

Not meaning to hijack the thread but I'm asking Eurospec about the engine size since they'd be my supplier, but yeah that's the short list of stuff to think about. Also think about shifter coupling, etc. The 6 speed is the sturdiest VAG tranny, so you're set. I'm thinking of a 3.2 VR6 with a GT3071R turbo. I'm at 8600ft of altitude so 4 lbs of boost are about the same as being at sea level, and the 3.2 acts like a 2.2 in terms of spool. I'd almost rebuy my old 1.8t if it weren't for the crappy spool time up here. The cool thing about VAG engines is the turbo is in the back, so exhaust routing would be easy.

You could put in a stock engine before you sell it. That would make it easier to sell. Hey if you could measure the VR6 width with tranny and the depth from the middle of the axle, we could maybe see if it's even an option.

Frank818

09-17-2013, 07:32 PM

That's probably doable, though what if I'm off by give or take a couple of inches?

First thing, should we start a separate thread on that?

In the meantime, I have put myself a reminder to check on that this w-e.
Can you precise a little more about the depth from the middle of the axle?

And sorry about your 8600ft height eating out a lot of power. :(

indiana818

09-19-2013, 06:34 PM

i am very interested in using the H6 EZ30 6 banger
I have a 2002 impreza donor 5 speed. does this bolt up?

Canadian818

09-19-2013, 06:37 PM

Yes

SkiRideDrive

10-14-2013, 03:55 PM

was going through this thread looking for some more information on the H6. I don't think the question posed earlier never got answered regarding whether Wayne's electromotive setup will control the AVCS on the newer EZ30D models (what some people refer to as an EZ30R and has a black plastic intake vs cast aluminum intake).

It seems the newer EZ30D has the potential for some more power as well as having separate exhaust ports for each cylinder, allowing for a proper header setup (resulting in a better powerband and even more importantly that GT3 like sound).

Wayne Presley

10-14-2013, 04:55 PM

It did get answered and it will work the AVCS. The 6 cylinder porsche sound is there with the EZ30D also

H6Legacy

10-16-2013, 04:10 PM

Hi guys. Just found my way here while googling for EZ30D conversions and turbo set ups. I'm currently running one of these motors retrofitted into an earlier Gen2 Legacy (called a Liberty here in Australia), with the factory H6 ecu and a dual range manual conversion. The most common trick to stop ECU codes popping up with a manual setup is to ground the neutral switch at the ECU, which is what has been done to my car. It's not ideal though as its struggles to idle smoothly and occasionally stalls when coming to a stop and pushing the clutch in, which is scary when the break vacuum and power steer suddenly disappears.

I recently found this thread on RS25.com where someone has wired up a transistor to trick the ECU into manual/auto when the clutch is pushed in to solve the problem I have with mine.
http://www.rs25.com/forums/f145/t155496-dyne-s-1999-2-5rs-h6-ez30d-swap.html

I'm very interested to see how you go with turboing this motor. I off-road my vehicle so would be looking at a high comp - low psi setup like Wayne is talking about, and was just looking at those same Garrett turbos.

For those that haven't driven a H6 with a manual they have the same torque and hp as a factory turbo and they go like it too, with no lag! In factory form the auto is an ugly power sucking parasite and doesn't do the motor justice.

A short video of how my H6 sounds tearing up a sand dune Down Under :cool:

http://youtu.be/usQ56XM2QJk

StatGSR

10-17-2013, 04:21 PM

Nice to see a guy that has actually completed an EZ+Manual swap on this site! i suspect when others see your post you might be getting inundated with with wiring questions! welcome aboard!

Silvertop

10-17-2013, 06:42 PM

I love the sound! As predicted, its pretty much the same sound you get from a 6-cylinder Porsche. And that is very sweet indeed!!

Wayne Presley

10-18-2013, 04:41 PM

Vroom Vroom

http://youtu.be/-714NAgFqpQ

riptide motorsport

10-19-2013, 08:49 PM

Sounds good!

flynntuna

11-19-2013, 09:55 AM

Hey Wayne do you have a list of parts needed to make this conversion beside those supplied buy an impreza donor?

Canadian818

11-19-2013, 11:39 AM

To my knowledge there's only a few things to fabricate. 2-1 coolant line, exhaust and intake. As for the wiring, either tackle the OEM, or buy a harness and standalone from Wayne.

Mifune

11-20-2013, 06:56 PM

You may want to check if there is a change in weight distribution, front and rear.

Wayne Presley

11-21-2013, 08:06 AM

To my knowledge there's only a few things to fabricate. 2-1 coolant line, exhaust and intake. As for the wiring, either tackle the OEM, or buy a harness and standalone from Wayne.
If you go NA you will have to make an inlet tube to the airbox/MAF sensor.

You may want to check if there is a change in weight distribution, front and rear.

Uh it's only 17 lbs, mounted in exactly the same location so the weight bias may change .9% :cool: My car with the turbo H6 is 59.7% rear and 50/50 in side and cross weights

Flamshackle

11-21-2013, 04:11 PM

Uh it's only 17 lbs, mounted in exactly the same location so the weight bias may change .9% :cool: My car with the turbo H6 is 59.7% rear and 50/50 in side and cross weights

Thats awesome!

Canadian818

12-28-2013, 02:10 AM

Does the EZ use the same engine mounts as the EJ? I doubt there's any stiffer aftermarket mounts for the EZ.

Wayne Presley

12-28-2013, 07:37 AM

The frame mounts are the same, the ones on the engine are completely different.

Canadian818

12-28-2013, 10:35 AM

The frame mounts are the same, the ones on the engine are completely different.

Thanks Wayne. After asking the question I did come across it mentioned a few times that STI (not sure how STI/non-STI could matter) mounts have been used on EZ's. Despite the EZ being a 3 bolt design and the EJ being a 2 bolt, it only requires slight modification...supposedly anyway, I've yet to find any proof. Might be easier to use the used mounts and install a dampner versus modifying aftermarket EJ mounts.

flynntuna

01-26-2014, 12:37 PM

I'm exploring options. If I go with an EZ30, and kept it NA, I don't think I'd be satisfied with 250 flywheel HP. So what can one reasonably expect with the traditional power adders.

http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=70

Canadian818

01-26-2014, 05:33 PM

Hard to say where it'll dyno with good headers and less drivetrain loss. Personally, I think 250rwhp NA trumps 300rwhp turbo any day of the week. They can really benifit from some valve train upgrades as well. Not sure if any of the headers pictured above would fit the 818 well.

Wayne Presley

01-26-2014, 09:38 PM

The EZ30 should put out about 350 at 6 psi of boost based on pressure ratios. (20.7/14.7*250)

Frank818

01-27-2014, 08:54 AM

Wayne, on stock static CR, right?
And stock CR cuz aftermarket parts to lower the compression on this engine are hard to find?

tango68ss

07-23-2014, 12:57 PM

Vroom Vroom

http://youtu.be/-714NAgFqpQ

Any new updates Wayne? Hows the fit-form-function, etc?? Headers? Just really interested in this set-up.

TC

flynntuna

07-25-2014, 02:02 PM

Wayne, do you see any problems using a two to one coolant adapter with a fill cap, or would it be better without?

Wayne Presley

07-25-2014, 02:14 PM

He put it in this one because the tube was higher than the top of the radiator. In the 818 you would just need to run a line to the degas tank from the 2 into 1.

Sgt.Gator

09-12-2015, 12:32 PM

Wayne I live in Outback/Legacy Wagon/Tribeca country, there are tons of wrecked EZ36s here. For example a 2011 30K mile EZ 36 complete engine assembly is available from a local wrecker for $2500. Will your harness + ECU work on a EZ36? Any issues you can think of about using an EZ36?

07FIREBLADE

09-12-2015, 01:02 PM

I know an iWire harness would work very soon.

turbomacncheese

08-16-2016, 12:27 AM

Hey guys. Where are we at on the EZ30 setups? I have until January to make up my mind :)

JB91710

08-16-2016, 07:50 AM

Hey Movieman! 57584

Turboguy

08-17-2016, 10:12 AM

Hey Movieman! 57584

What.........the..........

wleehendrick

08-17-2016, 10:24 AM

Hey Movieman! 57584

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/05/confusion-gif.gif?gs=a

That's so crazy... I like it.

JB91710

08-24-2016, 09:00 AM

Engine management??

You got that right!!!

JB91710

08-24-2016, 09:11 AM

I know an iWire harness would work very soon.

Don't hold your breath though. I've been talking to them for over a year now and as recent as two days ago and they can not run an EZ30 at this time.

turbomacncheese

08-25-2016, 09:32 PM

Do I understand correctly that the only reasons not to use an OEM harness on a NA EZ30 would be the weight and some trickery with the manual transmission? What happens with the transmission swap?

JB91710

10-07-2016, 04:43 PM

Do I understand correctly that the only reasons not to use an OEM harness on a NA EZ30 would be the weight and some trickery with the manual transmission? What happens with the transmission swap?

It's a moot point anyway. I just found out the electronics to run my engines with Motec is going to cost a whole lot of money.

JB91710

10-09-2016, 12:47 PM

flynntuna

10-09-2016, 05:23 PM

Ha, the ez36 is going to need something a little different :D. I'm getting some inspiration from what the GTM guys do, my headers will be similar to what they do with the angle that the headers will have to make between the engine and frame. I have yet to decide whether to use a H pipe or an X pipe. I think that space will limit me to a H pipe even though the X pipe would look cooler. :rolleyes:

Don't give up on your project to soon, theirs has to be a more cost effective solution out there.

DSR-3

10-10-2016, 11:25 AM

I figured out what those corrugated tubes in the kit are for! They will probably outlast my oak header flanges.59547

Samiam1017

10-10-2016, 12:57 PM

I figured out what those corrugated tubes in the kit are for! They will probably outlast my oak header flanges.59547

nice flange! do you know if the 30 and 36 would take the same flange or complete header? or are they different

flynntuna

10-10-2016, 01:27 PM

I figured out what those corrugated tubes in the kit are for! They will probably outlast my oak header flanges.59547

Clever and effective. :cool: Will you be adding a H pipe?

DSR-3

10-10-2016, 01:34 PM

nice flange! do you know if the 30 and 36 would take the same flange or complete header? or are they different
It looks like they use the same gasket (44011AG040) so maybe the flange is the same. As for the header, it depends on the engine location. Those pushing it back to clear the cam phasor hump(s) probably can't fit the header I'll build.

Also worth noting- re. "equal length" headers, 2 of the exhaust port in the head are "un-equal-length. Cylinders #1 and #6 are ~1" longer...

re. H or X pipe- I won't start with one, but there will be a place for one between the collector transition and muffler. I've only done a bit of research on it, but on a 6 it sounds like there's not a great performance increase from an H or X, but the effect on the sound may be a consideration.

craigfree

10-10-2016, 06:32 PM

Also worth noting- re. "equal length" headers, 2 of the exhaust port in the head are "un-equal-length. Cylinders #1 and #6 are ~1" longer...

Oh damn it... are you sure on cylinder numbers? I thought the heads were not interchangeable side to side.

DSR-3

10-10-2016, 07:04 PM

Oh damn it... are you sure on cylinder numbers? I thought the heads were not interchangeable side to side.
Location I'm sure of- but the numbering is from a sketch I made many months ago; #1 (front right) and #6 (rear left) are the long-ports. I don't see how the heads could be interchangeable.

craigfree

10-11-2016, 03:57 AM

Then it's cylinder 2 and 5, but I still didn't model it in.

Wayne Presley

10-11-2016, 07:44 AM

DSR has the numbering right, odd cyl are right, even are left

craigfree

10-11-2016, 08:08 PM

DSR has the numbering right, odd cyl are right, even are left

Driver's side (left) is odd. Front cylinder is #1.

If I have these backwards I have no idea how my engine is running if the cylinders are backwards as that should royally screw up firing order.

Wayne Presley

10-11-2016, 08:24 PM

Right side is #1. I'm 100% sure of that.

craigfree

10-12-2016, 09:11 PM

According to Subaru yes it is... I just traced the wiring diagram and confirmed you're right.

Now why does this run? It's 360 degrees out of phase.

Wayne Presley

10-12-2016, 09:42 PM

What engine management system are you running?

craigfree

10-12-2016, 10:03 PM

Haltech elite 2500

Wayne Presley

10-12-2016, 10:24 PM

Haltech elite 2500

Can you email me your tune file? wayne.verycoolparts@gmail.com

JB91710

10-13-2016, 12:58 PM

Right side is #1. I'm 100% sure of that.

Same on the EZ30R I guess Subaru just wanted to be different.

DSR-3

10-13-2016, 04:40 PM

According to Subaru yes it is... I just traced the wiring diagram and confirmed you're right.

Now why does this run? It's 360 degrees out of phase.

That's quite a head scratcher!
What I really want to say though, is- congratulations on the start-up! Great to hear about it.
I too am using the Elite 2500 system, and I'm starting on wiring now. *where did you locate the electronics?

craigfree

10-13-2016, 08:24 PM

My electronics are on the cabin side of front fire wall, passenger side.

Wayne figured it out. The haltech wiring guide has you put the home cam sensor on the left cam. Wayne said the home sensor should be on the cam for cylinder #1. Haltech probably assumed front left was #1 cylinder as most cars are, when they instruct you to put the home on the left head. Wayne wires too many cars and knows home goes on the cam for cylinder #1.

Chances are, I wired it how haltech thought it should be, Wayne wired it how haltech should have.