Metalmaker's build thread begins

[sponaugle]

That looks fantastic. Even though I know next to nothing about fiberglass, I am looking forward to screwing it up a few times on my car. :)

[metalmaker12]

That looks fantastic. Even though I know next to nothing about fiberglass, I am looking forward to screwing it up a few times on my car. :)

I have confidence you will be ok, just practice like everything else.

[metalmaker12]

3167231673

Rear cover painted, pre-assembled, bed liner,black powdercoated mesh, carbon wrap on lower mesh edge, stainless screws, washers and locknuts, glass in SS studs, lights, light harnesses,FFR plate bracket, plate.

[Aloha818]

3167231673

Rear cover painted, pre-assembled, bed liner,black powdercoated mesh, carbon wrap on lower mesh edge, stainless screws, washers and locknuts, glass in SS studs, lights, light harnesses,FFR plate bracket, plate.


Looking great! Can't wait to see it all together.

[metalmaker12]

Motors finally being extracted to tear it down. 32017

[Frank818]

A lot of protection around!

[metalmaker12]

Yeah the jdm intake manifold sits much higher than any others so my room is even more limited

[JWilkins]

Where did you get the mesh you are using in the vents?

[TahoeTim]

Looks good. Are the rear vent openings necessary? I am considering leaving mine solid. From photos here it appears that FFR doesn't cut them out before shipment so I am assuming that I have the option to do what I want with the openings.

[metalmaker12]

Where did you get the mesh you are using in the vents?

From FFR, they will sell you extra

[metalmaker12]

Looks good. Are the rear vent openings necessary? I am considering leaving mine solid. From photos here it appears that FFR doesn't cut them out before shipment so I am assuming that I have the option to do what I want with the openings.

Getting as much air directed to the IC and out of the engine bay is very important to limit the portential for heat soak, so cut away my friend. Monitoring intake temps with a sensor, gauge and IC sprayer will help

[wallace18]

Rear bumper looks great! nice job. Bummer about engine though.

[metalmaker12]

Rear bumper looks great! nice job. Bummer about engine though.

I am 90 percent sure it's the head gasket, but the tear down will tell the story. I had a coolant leak form on the front drivers coolant hose area that meets the radiator. It formed and air pocket and prob took out my head gasket. This happened quickly since I was autocross it and pushing it hard.

[metalmaker12]

Motors out and tear down begins,
321073210832109

[sponaugle]

I really enjoy the tear down. Feels good to figure out what broke. Good luck!

[metalmaker12]

Lol yeah it does I just gotta go find who has my strong metric impact Allen's set lol, you damn stupid Allen's bolts.

[shinn497]

I'm concerned that such a low mileage engine would break. I hope it isn't something major. Reliability is one of the reasons I want a Jdm engine.

[Tamra]

Good luck! Looking forward to seeing what you find.

[metalmaker12]

It is prob the head gasket, we will see soon. It leaked so it lost fluid under load. Any engine would have had a similar effect.

[C.Plavan]

What size hole saw did you use on the side vents? Same size top and bottom? I'm getting to cut mine out, FFR's frames are too small. I like what you did.

Also, what does FFR charge for the perforated vent sheet? size? I'm guessing 18 gauge (maybe 16), .1875 holes, .25 center to center at McMaster Carr.

[metalmaker12]

I made a template than I used a 1 1/4 spade bit along with a cut off wheel, files and 60 grit sand paper.

35"x24" for like $50 shipped 32153

[Kalstar]

Chris, when are you coming to the Cape? You still have the open invite to feel the difference.

[metalmaker12]

Bedliner the quarters, really looks great in the sun, put gas cap on

3236932370


Motors at machine shop getting measured up and we will see what the plan is

[wallace18]

Fuel filler looks great. Bedliner is the way to go IMO. Nice job!

[metalmaker12]

Fuel filler looks great. Bedliner is the way to go IMO. Nice job!

I did it after paint which is tedious, but it comes out pretty clean if your careful and I had prewash handy( works great if you mess up). I am using rustoleum bed liner and brushing it on. It holds up really well on these panels, not so much on an actual truck bed though. At least I found a decently priced product that is sold everywhere that works good for this application .

[Frank818]

Is it an asphalt-based bedliner?

[metalmaker12]

Here's a link off a jeep forum comparing liners:


Herculiner is pretty durable. It's thicker base and high rubber content keeps it pliable (in moderate temperatures) after curing. Cold will cause it to shrink and depending on age it can get brittle. In the heat or with prolonged sun exposure, it tends to get a tacky feel to it and sometimes smells. I think it still comes in only 4 colors and anything other than black will cost more. Herculiner feels really gritty and abrasive, but gets better as it wears down. A guy has white Herculiner all over his chopped Bronco. It's been on there for about 4 years and is slightly faded, peeling in some areas, and has sand embedded from where he puts his surfboards. Not bad in my book. I'm wondering if anyone painted black Herculiner? Does that stop it from getting tacky?

Durabak/Cote-L is similar to Herculiner in application and texture, but the cost is about $100/gallon. On the plus side, it comes in 15 colors (more if you're daring enough to mix) and includes UV protection. It can be brushed on, but spraying is highly recommended. The end result is less gritty than Herculiner, its feel and durability is a lot like the "professional" stuff. I've seen it on a dropped Colorado, the guy doesn't haul much...a cooler or occasional keg, maybe his gear once and awhile. He applied it 2 years ago, and aside from it being a fugly yellow I don't see any fading and no major scratches.

Magnaliner...good stuff. Like the above 2, it can be brushed, rolled, or sprayed. It's another that offers several colors and UV resistance adding to its durability. This one goes on really thick, and supposedly bonds to the metal (plastic and wood too). Thicker means fewer coats are required, which is good news because the 1 gallon kit costs almost $200. The motor pool guys used a bunch of 1 pint samples to coat the back of a utility truck, then painted it OD green. They've hauled some really gnarly crap. So far, the paint is pretty beat up, but the liner appears fine.

Monsterliner is made by the same company as Magnaliner and claims to be the toughest of all the DIY bedliners. It's a two part 100% UV blocking mix that really is tough. This bonds like epoxy and can really take a beating. The SSgt that has this on this Tacoma usually tosses ammo cans and equipment cases into his bed...aside from the few dings and dents from the abuse, I haven't found any scratches in the lining. He picked up the 1 gallon mix for $120.

Rustoleum is great because it's cheap and easy to find. Walmart, K-Mart and most hardware stores have it in 15oz spray or 124oz cans. Note that while it can be brushed on, spraying is recommended. Rustoleum goes on thin and smooth, so if you want durability, plan on doing multiple coats for the best results. 2 or 3 coats may seem like a lot, but think of that as just a start. Coats should be applied 20-30 minutes apart, so plan on spending a lot of time on the application. If done right, you get a smoother more finished look. Something to consider, more coats = more product...the final cost would be about the same or usually more than Herculiner. The cured product has a feel and texture similar to vinyl vehicle cladding, textured yet smooth. I've used this twice on my own cladding after stripping the Krylon Fusion crap. Twice because I put a UV satin clear coat on it. The first time I didn't let it cure long enough. I don't garage my ZJ and after a year, it's holding its color. I've had to touch up a minor bumper scuff from a buddy who rubbed a concrete pillar. After a quick cleaning and respraying, it blended right in. I've also used it on my kids bikes, tool box, and lawn mower. Ok, so I bought too much.

Duplicolor...I've read a lot of opinions about the product, mostly negative. The majority of people calling it crap are trying to use it for something it wasn't designed for. But when it comes to its use as a bed liner, it's not that bad. It's very easy to apply and just like the others, durability depends on how many coats you put on. One negative about this product that is true about Duplicolor is its poor color retention. It seems to fade faster than the others when exposed to UV. A civilian carpenter contractor has it on his work truck, it looks chalky and beat up (scuffed). But it's still intact after a year of hauling lumber, cabinets, tools, etc. I've seen him put Armor All on it, which made it look like new, but was very slippery.

Line-X, not really a DIY product, but can be if you find some. It's supposed to be professionally sprayed, but even brushed on it looks really good. During the curing process, Line-X evens out and any brush marks disappear. Curing is supposed to be done in a paint room, but we did it with hair dryers set on low and a whole afternoon. Cost was $90/quart. Not really worth it, since we probably could've gone to the local "Lava Lining" shop to get a professional job done for about $

[GUNS]

Thanks, I'll probably do something similar.

[Scargo]

Good info. Thanks for the detailed descriptions. Along the lines of what you said, a cold or high humidity day would probably give you a poorer result. Use a respirator.

[wleehendrick]

Bedliner the quarters, really looks great in the sun, put gas cap on

Looks great, comes out looking similar what I'm using (3M spray rubberized undercoating bought on Amazon).

[Doowop]

I'm just courious why you didn't just go with paint?

[metalmaker12]

You could just paint it, but this stuff is more durable, thicker and also sound deadens better

[metalmaker12]

Btw, my motor has two cracked pistons#2 and #4 (ringlands) and both headgaskets are blown. I attribute it to high IAT's and this will be a problem for all of the air- air IC 818 owners. The stock wrx/Sti barely gets the airflow needed to stay away from high IAT's in top mount form and they are getting direct airflow. The 818 is not getting proper airflow and can not unless you set it up like the blue R ( windscreen and pass seat removed with duct directly to IC) I am going awic, and recommend it to anyone that is going to push the 818 more than how my grandmother drives. ( that's everyone).

[Frank818]

I am going awic, and recommend it to anyone

There you go, now we're talking, I love AWIC. :)

[Wayne Presley]

There you go, now we're talking, I love AWIC. :)


Btw, my motor has two cracked pistons#2 and #4 (ringlands) and both headgaskets are blown. I attribute it to high IAT's and this will be a problem for all of the air- air IC 818 owners. The stock wrx/Sti barely gets the airflow needed to stay away from high IAT's in top mount form and they are getting direct airflow. The 818 is not getting proper airflow and can not unless you set it up like the blue R ( windscreen and pass seat removed with duct directly to IC) I am going awic, and recommend it to anyone that is going to push the 818 more than how my grandmother drives. ( that's everyone).

I have the solution

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/P1020975_zps6ca66aac.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/P1020975_zps6ca66aac.jpg.html)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/P1020977_zpsb917018e.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/P1020977_zpsb917018e.jpg.html)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Btw, my motor has two cracked pistons#2 and #4 (ringlands) and both headgaskets are blown. I attribute it to high IAT's and this will be a problem for all of the air- air IC 818 owners. The stock wrx/Sti barely gets the airflow needed to stay away from high IAT's in top mount form and they are getting direct airflow. The 818 is not getting proper airflow and can not unless you set it up like the blue R ( windscreen and pass seat removed with duct directly to IC) I am going awic, and recommend it to anyone that is going to push the 818 more than how my grandmother drives. ( that's everyone).

Hi Metal,
I want my engine to be as reliable as possible. I could still destroy an engine with a AWIC pump failure.
Would it be wise to add a temp switch to the intake air?
Bob

[metalmaker12]

Hi Metal,
I want my engine to be as reliable as possible. I could still destroy an engine with a AWIC pump failure.
Would it be wise to add a temp switch to the intake air?
Bob

A temp switch? Temp sensor with a gauge would be a good way to monitor it, along with an indicator light on the pumps ground side so it turns on when pump is on ( unless you run it full duty). With speed density we could tune the wrx to use a iat temp sensor after the turbo. I am working on that aspect also. Wayne's got his wiring setup also, but it can be done with the factory ecu.

[Wayne Presley]

It's best handled by having the IAT sensor after the intercooler and let the ECU adjust timing and fuel based on temps. Completely automatic and can take care of any failure situation.

[Frank818]

It's best handled by having the IAT sensor after the intercooler and let the ECU adjust timing and fuel based on temps. Completely automatic and can take care of any failure situation.

That is exactly my setup. I assume here I have keyed in the correct fuel and timing values in my ECU. I believe I did based on what I've seen from others, but that is my problem. :)

There is one thing I am unsure yet: what type of IAT sensor we should use. I have 2, one that is slow reacting to changes (OEM sensor) and one that is instant (aftermarket sensor for other controls). If you WOT for 5sec, the slow OEM sensor will not or just barely change its value, therefore not adjusting timing/fuel. But the instant sensor will show the exact temp rising. Of course if you race or WOT long enough, the OEM slow "trendy-detector" sensor, I call it, will log the change and adjust timing/fuel. Not sure which is best to use for the ECU.

[JeromeS13]

That is exactly my setup. I assume here I have keyed in the correct fuel and timing values in my ECU. I believe I did based on what I've seen from others, but that is my problem. :)

There is one thing I am unsure yet: what type of IAT sensor we should use. I have 2, one that is slow reacting to changes (OEM sensor) and one that is instant (aftermarket sensor for other controls). If you WOT for 5sec, the slow OEM sensor will not or just barely change its value, therefore not adjusting timing/fuel. But the instant sensor will show the exact temp rising. Of course if you race or WOT long enough, the OEM slow "trendy-detector" sensor, I call it, will log the change and adjust timing/fuel. Not sure which is best to use for the ECU.

Get the GM or AEM IAT sensor. It can be placed anywhere with a bung and the OEM ECU can be adjusted for the new readings.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Get the GM or AEM IAT sensor. It can be placed anywhere with a bung and the OEM ECU can be adjusted for the new readings.
When your talking about sending the after intercooler IAT sensor to the OEM ECU. Does that mean you are disconnecting temp sensor that is part of the MAF sensor? Or is this an additional sensor?
Bob

[JeromeS13]

When your talking about sending the after intercooler IAT sensor to the OEM ECU. Does that mean you are disconnecting temp sensor that is part of the MAF sensor? Or is this an additional sensor?
Bob

You will cut the wires going to the IAT sensor that is build into the MAF sensor and splice the new sensor into those wires. There should be a DIY guide on NASIOC.

[metalmaker12]

Not to smash your insightful suggestion, but I have heard, withnessed this can cause issues because the iat is integral to the maf and the Ecu in a maf based configuration relies on it to be where it is stock.Also the response time of Ecu based iats is pretty slow, so with improper resistance to that circuit it could cause insufficient readings and actually not do any good. I am trying to intergrate a whole new circuit to work with that circuits signal wire but be seperate. I am the idea guy, some of my electrical guru friends are working on it. They have had issues on customers cars with the splicing. If you run a setup like Wayne's were it is intergrated into his system to run the iat anywhere like SD than that is the way to go, but with a maf it's a bit more tricky cause you must compromise the circuit to achieve two iats.

In fact I am pretty sure it would not even function. The iat is a resistive sensor. No way you can tie two together because if this. When you change the iat you have to change the scalar in the Ecu. You def can't put two in parallel.

[Tamra]

Our idea is to have a separate controller for fans and an intercooler sprayer running logic based on BAT pre and post intercooler temperatures. We'll probably use GM IAT sensors. Also, something that will give warnings to the driver if things don't look happy. Also, we'll probably also have an override "autocross mode" for maximum cooling.

[metalmaker12]

Our idea is to have a separate controller for fans and an intercooler sprayer running logic based on BAT pre and post intercooler temperatures. We'll probably use GM IAT sensors. Also, something that will give warnings to the driver if things don't look happy. Also, we'll probably also have an override "autocross mode" for maximum cooling.

That will only work for normal driving, unless you get direct airflow pressure to the air to air cooler you won't reach it's 50% potential no matter using fans, sprayers etc. The awic is the only solution for an S that you will push, even the R should just use one. This is why FFR is using one now. Liquid just cools anything better than air does. The better the awic, the more power you can make and in a much safer way. This is true even on racing subies, unless your running a front/top, V etc mount with a sprayer or a awic your asking for heat soak, high iats and detonation. This will pop a stock or fully built engine. I am not trying to set a downer, but the awic in the 818 is a total must get.

[Tamra]

That will only work for normal driving, unless you get direct airflow pressure to the air to air cooler you won't reach it's 50% potential no matter using fans, sprayers etc. The awic is the only solution for an S that you will push, even the R should just use one. This is why FFR is using one now. Liquid just cools anything better than air does. The better the awic, the more power you can make and in a much safer way. This is true even on racing subies, unless your running a front/top, V etc mount with a sprayer or a awic your asking for heat soak, high iats and detonation. This will pop a stock or fully built engine. I am not trying to set a downer, but the awic in the 818 is a total must get.

Yeah, you have a good point. We are checking into an AWIC system, just hoping to keep the cost down. Depending on how much all of the extra tubing/fittings cost, we are looking at FrozenBoost with an upgraded Bosch pump.

How much AWIC radiator/heat exchanger do you think the car needs? We do not track - only autocross. And on the topic, for the regular radiator, are most people sticking with stock or upgrading? I tried searching but couldn't find much, other than fitment issues for larger ones.

[RM1SepEx]

Tamra, I think my aftermarket side mount air to air will work just fine at about $500 or less. With no Y pipe disrupting flow, bar and plate design and more area and a scoop on the outside I'm expecting 50% more IC cooling than stock w/o the complexity of AWIC

[Tamra]

Tamra, I think my aftermarket side mount air to air will work just fine at about $500 or less. With no Y pipe disrupting flow, bar and plate design and more area and a scoop on the outside I'm expecting 50% more IC cooling than stock w/o the complexity of AWIC

How much pipe volume will you have? Do you have any concerns about air volume based boost lag? Also, what core are you using, and just one, or two?

[Wayne Presley]

Yeah, you have a good point. We are checking into an AWIC system, just hoping to keep the cost down. Depending on how much all of the extra tubing/fittings cost, we are looking at FrozenBoost with an upgraded Bosch pump.

How much AWIC radiator/heat exchanger do you think the car needs? We do not track - only autocross. And on the topic, for the regular radiator, are most people sticking with stock or upgrading? I tried searching but couldn't find much, other than fitment issues for larger ones.

My AWIC comes with the Bosch pump, T bolt clamps, silicone hoses, huge heat exchanger, heat exchanger and IC mounts with hardware and you just have to bolt it on. BTW the stock sized radiator does just fine.

[metalmaker12]

There is no compromise for an awic set up. I am using Wayne's setup and it should do the trick, and is at a good price and ready to bolt in, time is also money in my world. I will have an iat, egt temp gauge, along with boost oil press and a/f to monitor it and I am running my pistons on the looser end of the specs to allow for heat expantion. I am also going to use an ice box on the hot days.

[metalmaker12]

There is no compromise for an awic set up. I am using Wayne's setup and it should do the trick, and is at a good price and ready to bolt in, time is also money in my world. I will have an iat, egt temp gauge, along with boost oil press and a/f to monitor it and I am running my pistons on the looser end of the specs to allow for heat expantion. I am also going to use an ice box on the hot days.

All that pipping will get heat soaked and have high pressure drops, it will not come close to be as effective as an awic

I am running a koyo radiator, but stock should be ok, they just are not super durable.

[RM1SepEx]

How much pipe volume will you have? Do you have any concerns about air volume based boost lag? Also, what core are you using, and just one, or two?

one on the right side, less than 7 feet of 2.5 inch pipe, you could do it with 2.0 pipe too, might end up with better clearance in places too. See my thread for photos and details. Hopefully I'll have it installed this week... I needed some aluminum welding and I have to ask a friend for that service...

[Frank818]

G, metal, you definitely thought of everything humanly possible to cool down that engine. lolll

[metalmaker12]

G, metal, you definitely thought of everything humanly possible to cool down that engine. lolll

Well when you blow ringlands and headgaskets due to really high iats from one hard autocross session after you drove the car fine for 1000 miles on the street, you would do the same playa.

[Frank818]

Well when you blow ringlands and headgaskets due to really high iats from one hard autocross session after you drove the car fine for 1000 miles on the street, you would do the same playa.

I give you that. I've always been a freak of cooling down temps, not too much cuz it isn't better! But doing many little or big things to keep them cool. You just prove me right again about that. I'll continue the same way.

[BrandonDrums]

Hey Metalmaker, is your shortblock salvageable? If not, I have a used '02 wrx block in good shape for a rebuild for sale. Not a JDM but the shortblock is pretty much the same. I'll let it go for cheap, no one on NASIOC wants a 2.0L anymore.

[metalmaker12]

Hey Metalmaker, is your shortblock salvageable? If not, I have a used '02 wrx block in good shape for a rebuild for sale. Not a JDM but the shortblock is pretty much the same. I'll let it go for cheap, no one on NASIOC wants a 2.0L anymore.

Yeah it's repairable as far as they have measured and tested, I think it's all good, tomorrow I will get full results

[BrandonDrums]

Yeah it's repairable as far as they have measured and tested, I think it's all good, tomorrow I will get full results

Fingers crossed for ya man.

[metalmaker12]

32872

Motors getting some machine love and the bottom will be fully built. The heads will be rebuilt with a haircut but stock trim with a mild port to just clean the ruff casting.

In the meantime I have ordered plx touch screen gauge for a/f, egt and iat. I also got stri 60mm oil pressure to match my boost gauge. I will be installing them in my dash. I also ordered Wayne's awic, a Blouch 1.5 xtr twinscroll turbo and these injectors. I will be good for 500 plus, but will be tuning it for 300-330whp with a sick powerband and reliability.

[C.Plavan]

32872

Motors getting some machine love and the bottom will be fully built. The heads will be rebuilt with a haircut but stock trim with a mild port to just clean the ruff casting.

In the meantime I have ordered plx touch screen gauge for a/f, egt and iat. I also got stri 60mm oil pressure to match my boost gauge. I will be installing them in my dash. I also ordered Wayne's awic, a Blouch 1.5 xtr twinscroll turbo and these injectors. I will be good for 500 plus, but will be tuning it for 300-330whp with a sick powerband and reliability.

Nice!

[Wayne Presley]

Here's a comparison of air to air intercooler to air to water

Air to Air with two 10" fans sitting on top of the intercooler
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/AirToAir_zpsd844ceb6.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/AirToAir_zpsd844ceb6.jpg.html)

Air to water low speed fan 3 feet in front of heat exchanger.
Data log starts at 1.7 seconds at intake air temp of 97 F@2650 RPM
Data log ends at 8.7 seconds at intake air temp of 106 F@6100RPM
9°F increase in 7 seconds

Both engines made 240 RWHP

[longislandwrx]

Was that an oem TMIC? What was ambient air/water in the tank temp?

[Wayne Presley]

That was a stock 07 air to air TMIC on an 07 WRX. The water in the tank had 7 pulls on it and water temp was 96 degrees. Ambient temp was 92-96.
On the air to air, can you imaging the intake air temps at an autocross with only the air flow from the deck vents vs the 20°F/6 seconds with two 10" fans sitting on top of them?

[RM1SepEx]

Stock location can't work... no air flow

[wleehendrick]

To me, the data clearly show that, compared to a AWIC, the stock A2A IC performance is compromised even with adequate airflow; this would be the case in the original fitment (WRX); in a stock 818 the temp rise would be greater.

What would be interesting is to know where the delta-T levels off at a typical power duty cycle representative of track duty, with adequate airflow. This would answer if the stock IC could be ever be useful even with proper ducting.

Hmmm... My 818 will be primarily a street car, but I'm starting to think about the AWIC!

[Wayne Presley]

Time (s)
RPM
MAP (kPa)
TPS (%)
MAT (°C)
WT (°C)
AuxT (°C)




















1.857
2658
115.8
69.5
-
80
36


1.95
2780
117.6
97.6
-
80
36


2.013
2792
113
97.6
-
80
36


2.059
2799
114.4
97.7
-
80
36


2.137
2848
118.3
97.6
-
80
36


2.2
2856
114.5
97.6
-
80
37


2.293
2911
115.5
97.6
-
80
37


2.356
2931
118
97.6
-
80
37


2.371
2931
118
97.6
-
80
37


2.449
2963
114.4
97.6
-
80
37


2.512
2998
117.8
97.7
-
80
37


2.574
3025
115.5
97.7
-
80
37


2.668
3040
114.8
97.6
-
80
37


2.683
3040
114.8
97.6
-
80
37


2.746
3088
115.5
97.6
-
80
37


2.839
3131
115.9
97.6
-
80
37


2.871
3151
120.6
97.7
-
80
37


2.933
3158
117.1
97.7
-
80
37


2.995
3188
116
97.7
-
80
37


3.073
3227
116.1
97.7
-
80
37


3.136
3277
118
97.6
-
80
37


3.198
3297
119.4
97.6
-
80
37


3.276
3344
117.8
97.6
-
80
37


3.292
3354
118.1
97.6
-
80
37


3.385
3413
117.8
97.6
-
80
37


3.448
3419
119.9
97.7
-
80
37


3.526
3480
118.6
97.7
-
80
37


3.588
3482
117.8
97.6
-
80
37


3.635
3524
118
97.6
-
80
37


3.697
3562
120.5
97.7
-
80
37


3.76
3582
117.3
97.7
-
80
37


3.838
3638
120.3
97.7
-
80
37


3.869
3657
120.8
97.7
-
80
37


3.931
3688
116.4
97.6
-
80
37


3.978
3688
116.4
97.6
-
80
37


4.056
3752
115.5
97.7
-
80
37


4.119
3785
117
98.2
-
80
37


4.197
3829
121.3
97.7
-
80
37


4.259
3873
119.3
97.7
-
80
37


4.321
3900
120.4
97.7
-
80
37


4.399
3944
118.3
97.7
-
80
37

[Wayne Presley]

Time (s)
RPM
MAP (kPa)
TPS (%)
MAT (°C)
WT (°C)
AuxT (°C)











4.431
3975
119.3
97.7
-
80
37


4.509
3995
122.8
97.7
-
80
37


4.571
4038
121.4
97.8
-
80
37


4.633
4067
118.1
97.7
-
80
37


4.68
4076
118.9
97.6
-
80
37


4.743
4129
119
97.7
-
80
37


4.992
4264
123.1
97.7
-
80
38


5.023
4264
123.1
97.7
-
80
38


5.039
4264
123.1
97.7
-
80
38


5.133
4333
122
97.8
-
80
38


5.179
4350
123.5
97.7
-
80
38


5.242
4374
120.7
97.7
-
80
38


5.304
4401
123.3
97.6
-
80
38


5.398
4464
122.8
97.7
-
80
38


5.445
4478
124.3
97.7
-
80
38


5.507
4503
120.5
97.8
-
80
38


5.601
4543
122.7
97.7
-
80
38


5.601
4543
122.7
97.7
-
80
38


5.71
4603
123.8
97.7
-
80
38


5.757
4633
124.8
97.8
-
80
38


5.819
4652
124.6
97.7
-
80
38


5.881
4699
121.4
97.7
-
80
38


5.944
4726
122.5
97.6
-
80
38


6.022
4762
123
97.8
-
80
38


6.069
4791
125.3
97.7
-
80
38


6.162
4836
126.5
97.7
-
80
38


6.178
4836
126.5
97.7
-
80
38


6.256
4878
123.7
97.7
-
80
38


6.303
4908
123.6
97.7
-
80
39


6.365
4955
126.8
97.6
-
80
39


6.427
4977
126
97.8
-
80
39


6.505
5022
122.6
97.7
-
80
39


6.583
5081
126.8
97.7
-
80
39


6.646
5090
126.1
97.7
-
80
39


6.693
5118
126.6
97.7
-
80
39


6.739
5146
124.6
97.7
-
80
39


6.849
5193
125.7
97.7
-
80
39


6.927
5261
127.8
97.7
-
80
39


6.973
5286
126.5
97.7
-
80
39


7.02
5311
128.3
97.7
-
80
39

















0

[Wayne Presley]

Time (s)
RPM
MAP (kPa)
TPS (%)
MAT (°C)
WT (°C)
AuxT (°C)











7.083
5331
127.6
97.7
-
80
39


7.098
5357
127.8
97.7
-
80
39


7.192
5419
127.7
97.7
-
80
39


7.301
5429
127.4
97.8
-
80
39


7.317
5429
127.4
97.8
-
80
39


7.379
5503
127.1
97.6
-
80
40


7.426
5520
127.8
97.7
-
80
40


7.488
5547
127.8
97.7
-
80
40


7.535
5597
128.8
97.7
-
80
40


7.629
5647
129
97.7
-
80
40


7.691
5664
129.4
97.7
-
80
40


7.753
5710
129.1
97.6
-
80
40


7.847
5757
128.7
97.7
-
80
40


7.878
5757
128.7
97.7
-
80
40


7.941
5810
128.5
97.7
-
80
40


8.019
5853
128.2
97.7
-
80
40


8.081
5877
128.3
97.6
-
80
40


8.128
5908
130.7
97.8
-
80
40


8.175
5921
131.8
97.7
-
80
40


8.268
5939
129.6
97.7
-
80
40


8.331
6035
130.6
97.7
-
80
41


8.424
6035
130.6
97.7
-
80
41


8.424
6035
130.6
97.7
-
80
41


8.471
6035
130.6
97.7
-
80
41


8.533
6035
130.6
97.7
-
80
41


8.596
6035
130.6
97.7
-
80
41


8.658
6035
130.6
97.7
-
80
41


8.721
6035
130.6
97.7
-
80
41


8.783
6035
130.6
97.7
-
80
41

[longislandwrx]

thanks for the data!

[RM1SepEx]

The stock IC can't allow air to flow through very well so much of it is covered by that stupid Y pipe, disrupting smooth flow

[metalmaker12]

That was a stock 07 air to air TMIC on an 07 WRX. The water in the tank had 7 pulls on it and water temp was 96 degrees. Ambient temp was 92-96.
On the air to air, can you imaging the intake air temps at an autocross with only the air flow from the deck vents vs the 20°F/6 seconds with two 10" fans sitting on top of them?

Oh I can imagine and so can my engine.

[metalmaker12]

I am going to start a depowering the rack gig. I have done about 10-15 other car types and 5 818 conversions and now I figure I will offer the service.

The drop off fee: $200

Mailing in fee of: $240 ( you pay to mail it in, but I do work and mail it back to you, and mailing fee is included in price)

Includes: teardown and seal removal, cleaning, pinion and line end welding, blasting, painting of line ends re-assembly with
High temp greese, and new boot ties.

Any other parts that are needed ( bushings, boots, inner parts etc, will be added to the bill with no additional labor

PayPal or cash only

Pm if your interested.

[Aloha818]

32872

Motors getting some machine love and the bottom will be fully built. The heads will be rebuilt with a haircut but stock trim with a mild port to just clean the ruff casting.

In the meantime I have ordered plx touch screen gauge for a/f, egt and iat. I also got stri 60mm oil pressure to match my boost gauge. I will be installing them in my dash. I also ordered Wayne's awic, a Blouch 1.5 xtr twinscroll turbo and these injectors. I will be good for 500 plus, but will be tuning it for 300-330whp with a sick powerband and reliability.

Sorry you had the engine failure, but looks like it was a good excuse to really up the game!

[metalmaker12]

Yeah, the awic is a great way to save yours and others, the IC will just not get the air it needs to function correctly.

[BrandonDrums]

I've been considering doing an AWIC setup on my WRX now just having read through a lot of threads on the AWIC. However, in my reading it sounds like the down-side of the AWIC is still a higher propensity to heat-soak on long track stints. AWIC is mostly used for short drag-racing runs and drift stuff where heat-soak isn't an issue because it's just a couple laps.

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tuning/Water%20vs%20Air%20Intercooler.html

I know it's going to be better than a stock TMIC setup to run AWIC in an 818 but what if you could get more reverse flow through the IC by mounting a large FMIC against the mesh outlet of the 818R rear-end? The massive low-pressure cavity behind the trailing end of the car pulls air in through the sides, top and bottom of the engine bay and sucks it out through there.

http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af89/BrandondrumsWRX/Reverse_FMIC_mounting_location_zps08a3196e.png

[Wayne Presley]

I've been considering doing an AWIC setup on my WRX now just having read through a lot of threads on the AWIC. However, in my reading it sounds like the down-side of the AWIC is still a higher propensity to heat-soak on long track stints. AWIC is mostly used for short drag-racing runs and drift stuff where heat-soak isn't an issue because it's just a couple laps.

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tuning/Water%20vs%20Air%20Intercooler.html

I know it's going to be better than a stock TMIC setup to run AWIC in an 818 but what if you could get more reverse flow through the IC by mounting a large FMIC against the mesh outlet of the 818R rear-end? The massive low-pressure cavity behind the trailing end of the car pulls air in through the sides, top and bottom of the engine bay and sucks it out through there.

http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af89/BrandondrumsWRX/Reverse_FMIC_mounting_location_zps08a3196e.png

Well just having finished a weekend at Barber with a SC Elise with an AWIC I can attest that the heat soak is not an issue. After a 20 minute race, the water in the coolant tank was 114°F on a 94° day. That was the equilibrium point with the size of heat exchanger installed. As you can imaging it's less than 50% of the size of the heat exchanger that is in the 818 AWIC I sell due to how small the nose is in the Elise.

Brandon, putting the A2AIC there will feed the intercooler engine heated air and not ambient.

[Frank818]

Speaking of AWIC, metalbreaker where are you running your coolant lines from the tank to cooler? Along side the engine coolant tubes in the door sills?

Another question, normally what is better to increase efficiency of an AWIC setup? A larger heat exchanger, a bigger cooler or a bigger tank with more water?

[Wayne Presley]

Speaking of AWIC, metalbreaker where are you running your coolant lines from the tank to cooler? Along side the engine coolant tubes in the door sills?

Another question, normally what is better to increase efficiency of an AWIC setup? A larger heat exchanger, a bigger cooler or a bigger tank with more water?

Bigger HE and tank will increase the time to heat equilibrium.

[sponaugle]

A temp switch? Temp sensor with a gauge would be a good way to monitor it, along with an indicator light on the pumps ground side so it turns on when pump is on ( unless you run it full duty). With speed density we could tune the wrx to use a iat temp sensor after the turbo. I am working on that aspect also. Wayne's got his wiring setup also, but it can be done with the factory ecu.

If you wire a fast response IAT sensor into the stock ECU you can use the ECU tables to do an effective engine cut if IATs get too high. Most of the Subaru ECUs have wastegate and boost target trim based on IAT, as well as ignition timing. I have my 08 STI maps set such that IATs above 140 degrees results in no additional boost above wastegate and a retarding in timing. The drop in boost is very noticeable and you would immediately know something is wrong.



Not to smash your insightful suggestion, but I have heard, witnessed this can cause issues because the iat is integral to the maf and the Ecu in a maf based configuration relies on it to be where it is stock.Also the response time of Ecu based iats is pretty slow, so with improper resistance to that circuit it could cause insufficient readings and actually not do any good. I am trying to intergrate a whole new circuit to work with that circuits signal wire but be seperate. I am the idea guy, some of my electrical guru friends are working on it. They have had issues on customers cars with the splicing. If you run a setup like Wayne's were it is intergrated into his system to run the iat anywhere like SD than that is the way to go, but with a maf it's a bit more tricky cause you must compromise the circuit to achieve two iats.

In fact I am pretty sure it would not even function. The iat is a resistive sensor. No way you can tie two together because if this. When you change the iat you have to change the scalar in the Ecu. You def can't put two in parallel.

I would really encourage running SD in a case like this. With SD you have very fine control of fueling and load mapping, plus a good fast IAT. I use an IAT sensor in the boost tube for my 08, wired into the MAF IAT circuit.

http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/08EFR/AITSensor.jpg


There is no compromise for an awic set up. I am using Wayne's setup and it should do the trick, and is at a good price and ready to bolt in, time is also money in my world. I will have an iat, egt temp gauge, along with boost oil press and a/f to monitor it and I am running my pistons on the looser end of the specs to allow for heat expantion. I am also going to use an ice box on the hot days.

Nice. I'm also going to use the VCP AWIC setup.

I'm curious as to your piston tolerances. Here is how I built my motor last week ( new case, ACL bearings, Weisco pistons. ) Any idea how they compare?

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EngineBuildSpecs.jpg

Cheers, Jeff

[BrandonDrums]

If you wire a fast response IAT sensor into the stock ECU you can use the ECU tables to do an effective engine cut if IATs get too high. Most of the Subaru ECUs have wastegate and boost target trim based on IAT, as well as ignition timing. I have my 08 STI maps set such that IATs above 140 degrees results in no additional boost above wastegate and a retarding in timing. The drop in boost is very noticeable and you would immediately know something is wrong.




I would really encourage running SD in a case like this. With SD you have very fine control of fueling and load mapping, plus a good fast IAT. I use an IAT sensor in the boost tube for my 08, wired into the MAF IAT circuit.

http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/08EFR/AITSensor.jpg



Nice. I'm also going to use the VCP AWIC setup.

I'm curious as to your piston tolerances. Here is how I built my motor last week ( new case, ACL bearings, Weisco pistons. ) Any idea how they compare?

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/EngineBuildSpecs.jpg

Cheers, Jeff


Yeah, those clearances look about right. Personally, I prefer the rod bearings to be a bit looser than stock. Mine are all .00185"-.002'' and I ended up allowing the machine shop to resize a couple rods to get there after going through two sets of ACL "Race" Bearings. After two rod bearing failures I figured it's more important to get more oil flow there for heat evacuation purposes. Seems to be working out well.

Also, it needs to be said that the only way to get a post-turbo/IC IAT dependent tune on a stock Subaru ECU is to convert to speed density. I don't know if that was clear in your post. If you're on a MAF tune, it's not really possible to put another IAT sensor elsewhere on the intake tract. Replacing the MAF with an upgraded one still means having IAT reading come before the turbo. However, if you have more info on how to add another IAT on a MAF tune, link me to some readin' cause' I'll be doing that asap.


Brandon, putting the A2AIC there will feed the intercooler engine heated air and not ambient.

Yeah, but that's practically the case with the TMIC where it is. At least by moving it back to the tail end you'll have more air flowing through it and get the TMIC away from the hot turbo and away from being directly over the engine. Not ideal but a likely improvement over the stock location. Could perhaps be an option for re-locating the stock TMIC for a temporary solution for budget guys. I'd love to get some airspeed and temp readings from there vs. the stock location.

[metalmaker12]

I am running my plx device Afr, ait and egt modules with a dm-6 multi touch gauge. I will monitor the awic's efficiency.

As far as I know and other local tuners you can't just add an iat sensor to the maf ( in a maf setup) and expect the ecu work properly on all it's tables.

[Aero STI]

Also, it needs to be said that the only way to get a post-turbo/IC IAT dependent tune on a stock Subaru ECU is to convert to speed density. I don't know if that was clear in your post. If you're on a MAF tune, it's not really possible to put another IAT sensor elsewhere on the intake tract. Replacing the MAF with an upgraded one still means having IAT reading come before the turbo. However, if you have more info on how to add another IAT on a MAF tune, link me to some readin' cause' I'll be doing that asap.


You don't see it very much anymore because SD is so prevalent, but a blow-thru MAF setup allows you to get more accurate IAT readings post intercooler.

http://perrinperformance.com/i-13324046-blow-thru-boost-tube-for-2002-07-wrx-sti.html

[sponaugle]

You don't see it very much anymore because SD is so prevalent, but a blow-thru MAF setup allows you to get more accurate IAT readings post intercooler.

http://perrinperformance.com/i-13324046-blow-thru-boost-tube-for-2002-07-wrx-sti.html

Bingo. There is no reason you can't put the IAT sensor after the intercooler, even if you have the MAF before the intercooler/turbo. Back in the day (as the saying goes), I did both, and both worked well. The blow thru MAF setup is a bit funky, but it can be made to work. In both cases you have to make some adjustments to the Intake Air comp tables. If you have the IAT after the turbo it will see much higher IAT and as such you will want to change how the compensations are applied. Give me a sec and I'll post up a sample set of tables.


I am running my plx device Afr, ait and egt modules with a dm-6 multi touch gauge. I will monitor the awic's efficiency.
As far as I know and other local tuners you can't just add an iat sensor to the maf ( in a maf setup) and expect the ecu work properly on all it's tables.

I have used the PLX devices extensively, and actually I used to be a dealer back in the PDX days. I'll post up some more comments in my build thread so as to not pollute yours. There are some interesting pluses and minuses.


Yeah, those clearances look about right. Personally, I prefer the rod bearings to be a bit looser than stock. Mine are all .00185"-.002'' and I ended up allowing the machine shop to resize a couple rods to get there after going through two sets of ACL "Race" Bearings. After two rod bearing failures I figured it's more important to get more oil flow there for heat evacuation purposes. Seems to be working out well.

Also, it needs to be said that the only way to get a post-turbo/IC IAT dependent tune on a stock Subaru ECU is to convert to speed density. I don't know if that was clear in your post. If you're on a MAF tune, it's not really possible to put another IAT sensor elsewhere on the intake tract. Replacing the MAF with an upgraded one still means having IAT reading come before the turbo. However, if you have more info on how to add another IAT on a MAF tune, link me to some readin' cause' I'll be doing that asap.



Indeed I have done the aftermarket IAT sensor with the factory MAF sensor plugged in. The factory MAF will still have an IAT sensor in it, but I cut the wire to the ECU and added my own IAT sensor post turbo. While I would prefer to be on a speed density tune for this, you can do it MAF only. The MAF sensor itself it temperature dependent and temperature correcting, and the IAT sensor inside the MAF sensor can simply be disconnected from the ECU while leaving the MAF signal connected.

If you were going to this trouble you might consider just doing a blow-thru MAF, or as you suggested just switch to SD.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

Here are the tables I was talking about.. these are for an 06 WRX ECU:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/06WRX-AITAdjust1.png

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/06WRX-AITAdjust2.png

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/06WRX-AITAdjust3.png

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/06WRX-AITAdjust4.png

The first table is the calibration table, which you have to change if you use a different sensor. Pretty easy.
The second table is timing compensation, which you would need to make flatter up to 210, then roll down. This is very useful for an AWIC because if post AWIC you AITs are over 220-230 you have a problem.
The third table allows you to get rid of WGDC at high IATS.
The forth is one of three tables that adjusts the PID algorythm based on IATs.

There are a few other tables, but they are of similar construction. If you move the IAT sensor to a post turbo/IC spot, you just need to adjust these accordingly.

Jeff

[longislandwrx]

Indeed I have done the aftermarket IAT sensor with the factory MAF sensor plugged in. The factory MAF will still have an IAT sensor in it, but I cut the wire to the ECU and added my own IAT sensor post turbo.

Jeff

what a great idea.

[metalmaker12]

Here are the tables I was talking about.. these are for an 06 WRX ECU:

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/06WRX-AITAdjust1.png

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/06WRX-AITAdjust2.png

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/06WRX-AITAdjust3.png

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/06WRX-AITAdjust4.png

The first table is the calibration table, which you have to change if you use a different sensor. Pretty easy.
The second table is timing compensation, which you would need to make flatter up to 210, then roll down. This is very useful for an AWIC because if post AWIC you AITs are over 220-230 you have a problem.
The third table allows you to get rid of WGDC at high IATS.
The forth is one of three tables that adjusts the PID algorythm based on IATs.

There are a few other tables, but they are of similar construction. If you move the IAT sensor to a post turbo/IC spot, you just need to adjust these accordingly.

Jeff


Seems simply from the way your explaining it, but I bet its harder to get just right so it all runs smoothly. I will work on it on the dyno, hopefully I can get it to work correctly

[longislandwrx]

Seems simply from the way your explaining it, but I bet its harder to get just right so it all runs smoothly. I will work on it on the dyno, hopefully I can get it to work correctly


true but, before converting you can do plenty of datalogging of the actual IAT and see what your delta between the mafs readings are over various conditions. from there table two shouldn't be too hard to tweak. looking at Jeff's values IAT over 176 is unlikely, so you are really only generating 4 or 5 values. not too bad. start conservative and then add a little timing.

[metalmaker12]

Got HE mocked up, had to play around with it because my lower aluminum gets in the way of Wayne's design slightly. I still have to re align the brass fittings to work the way I want, so nothing's final except the location of core. 3320933210

[Frank818]

That's a nice HE, what are its size specs? I am looking for exactly that type. EDIT: Sorry metalbruins, I just realized it's on Wayne's AWIC thread so I have asked there.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13330-VCP-Air-to-Water-Intercooler-kit&p=168412&viewfull=1#post168412


Other thing, where will you install your tank?

[metalmaker12]

That's a nice HE, what are its size specs? I am looking for exactly that type. EDIT: Sorry metalbruins, I just realized it's on Wayne's AWIC thread so I have asked there.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13330-VCP-Air-to-Water-Intercooler-kit&p=168412&viewfull=1#post168412


Other thing, where will you install your tank?

What tank do mean??

Metalbruins "A", which team is yours, Montreal, leafs etc

[Frank818]

The 3-gallon tank for the water flowing through the AWIC system. I thought Wayne's kit was coming with one?

33212

EDIT AGAIN: Well re-reading his thread it seems it doesn't, there is no mention of water tank.


Montreal team.

[metalmaker12]

The 3-gallon tank for the water flowing through the AWIC system. I thought Wayne's kit was coming with one?

33212

EDIT AGAIN: Well re-reading his thread it seems it doesn't, there is no mention of water tank.


Montreal team.



Yeah no tank like that, but I am going to run one like this .. Ice anyone??
33215

[sponaugle]

Seems simply from the way your explaining it, but I bet its harder to get just right so it all runs smoothly. I will work on it on the dyno, hopefully I can get it to work correctly


true but, before converting you can do plenty of datalogging of the actual IAT and see what your delta between the mafs readings are over various conditions. from there table two shouldn't be too hard to tweak. looking at Jeff's values IAT over 176 is unlikely, so you are really only generating 4 or 5 values. not too bad. start conservative and then add a little timing.

There really isn't too much to tune. The MAF sensor itself already corrects the airflow for temperature. The IAT tables I posted are just for 'edge case' tuning adjustment. If you have your IAT sensor after turbo and intercooler, you can expect IATs to be a bit higher under boost. In my 08 I have the table set to 0 all the way to 130 degrees, then I have a little bit of retard to 160 degrees, then a lot. I don't think I have ever hit the high amount of retard. If you have a good intercooler your temps are not that far off from ambient.

The wastegate duty cycle is slightly more complicated because it is adjusting the target wastegate duty cycles based on the air temp to help prevent overboost in cold weather and underboost in hot weather. Since you are measuring air temps that will vary more I would typically just scale down all of the values by perhaps 50%. At the extreme (say above 160 degrees), I would remove all of the available WGDC to cut boost as much as possible. If you are running anything other then a stock turbo the values might need to change anyways.

Either way, the car will run just fine with the stock numbers and you will probably be on the conservative side.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

Yeah no tank like that, but I am going to run one like this .. Ice anyone??
33215

That is cool.. literally!

[metalmaker12]

There really isn't too much to tune. The MAF sensor itself already corrects the airflow for temperature. The IAT tables I posted are just for 'edge case' tuning adjustment. If you have your IAT sensor after turbo and intercooler, you can expect IATs to be a bit higher under boost. In my 08 I have the table set to 0 all the way to 130 degrees, then I have a little bit of retard to 160 degrees, then a lot. I don't think I have ever hit the high amount of retard. If you have a good intercooler your temps are not that far off from ambient.

The wastegate duty cycle is slightly more complicated because it is adjusting the target wastegate duty cycles based on the air temp to help prevent overboost in cold weather and underboost in hot weather. Since you are measuring air temps that will vary more I would typically just scale down all of the values by perhaps 50%. At the extreme (say above 160 degrees), I would remove all of the available WGDC to cut boost as much as possible. If you are running anything other then a stock turbo the values might need to change anyways.

Either way, the car will run just fine with the stock numbers and you will probably be on the conservative side.

Jeff


Thanks Jeff, once I get it all back together and on dyno I will play around with this more and see my results. I am running iD 1000 injectors and a Blouch 1.5 xtr twinscroll so my tables are going to be adjusted across the board.

And yeah the ice tanks are a good way to further the temps down for dragging and short trips. Offcoarse if you could cryo freeze the IC and this tank, than you would have cold air all the time.

[Frank818]

Yeah no tank like that, but I am going to run one like this .. Ice anyone??
33215

Same function as the one I posted, just different casing. Both can use ice, apparently works very well!

[Wayne Presley]

I was on the dyno today with an 818 with my AWIC on it and it works awesome! It was hot here today, 94°F and after 20 pulls on the dyno, the manifold air temp went up from 94 to 102°. That's pull after pull after pull. The most temp increase during any single run was 1°.

[JeromeS13]

So you only saw an intake air temp that was 1 degree above ambient during a run? That doesn't seem right... Or are you referring to the temperature of the water?

[metalmaker12]

So you only saw an intake air temp that was 1 degree above ambient during a run? That doesn't seem right... Or are you referring to the temperature of the water?

I think he meant it went to 102 and maybe fultuated a degree during one pull but was mostly 102. That's 8 degrees above ambient according to my math.

[Wayne Presley]

So you only saw an intake air temp that was 1 degree above ambient during a run? That doesn't seem right... Or are you referring to the temperature of the water?
I was referring to the datalog of the manifold air temp sender which is after the intercooler. I did a pull, left it idling between pulls and it took 2 hours for the MAT to rise 8°F. It was 10 pulls or so to get the ign and fuel curves right for the boost level of the wastegate spring. Then added 15% duty cycle to the boost solenoid with a pull to 4000, 5000 and 6000 rpm. Adjust the fuel/ign maps to the new boost level then repeat at 25, 35, 45, 55, 65 and 75% duty cycles. The IC and HE are actually over sized for this application but I don't think there is such a thing as too cool if intake charge...

I think he meant it went to 102 and maybe fluctuated a degree during one pull but was mostly 102. That's 8 degrees above ambient according to my math.
The first 5°F were there after doing some non boosted fuel map tuning, took all of the rest of the boosted runs to get the other 3°.

[metalmaker12]

Impressive for a backyard mechanic lol. Nice stuff

[Wayne Presley]

I did a few back to back pulls....I kept an eye on the manifold air temp, it barely moved so I kept pulling.

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/20140906_153159_zpsvapsyxj9.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/20140906_153159_zpsvapsyxj9.jpg.html)
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/20140906_153207_zpscn8i2lqv.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/20140906_153207_zpscn8i2lqv.jpg.html)
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/20140906_153220_zpssnzhlpjq.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/20140906_153220_zpssnzhlpjq.jpg.html)
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/20140906_153242_zpskszhcmus.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/20140906_153242_zpskszhcmus.jpg.html)
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/20140906_153302_zpsi9bncifc.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/20140906_153302_zpsi9bncifc.jpg.html)

I could have never done so many pulls so quickly with an air to air intercooler.

[ssssly]

The biggest issue that I have found with AWICs is long road tracks. If you manage to heat up the water by flogging the car for 20 minutes, it takes forever to cool it back off.

So if you don't have more than 40 minutes in between runs, you have to swap out the water and bleed the system.

With the room in the front of the 818 there should be enough for an additional full sized radiator, or at least a 3/4, in a v-mount to prevent the water from ever heating up to more than a few degrees over ambient.

And without the power steering pump or AC, there should be plenty of room for an additional water pump to run full sized piping. That and I like to build crazy Frankenstienian things.

The other trick is to make sure your turbo is within its efficiency range. That way you don't boil the water to begin with. People have a tendency to like to strap AWICs to cars that the turbos have been turned up way past their efficiency range. And then want the AWIC to fix the heat problems caused by it.

But normal humans shouldn't run anywhere near the limits of a decent AWIC.

[metalmaker12]

In the 818 with a decent sized exchanger in the front away from the engine and potential heat soaking the awic should work very well as Wayne is demonstrating. Even on long tracks and really any situation

[Wayne Presley]

The biggest issue that I have found with AWICs is long road tracks. If you manage to heat up the water by flogging the car for 20 minutes, it takes forever to cool it back off.

So if you don't have more than 40 minutes in between runs, you have to swap out the water and bleed the system.

With the room in the front of the 818 there should be enough for an additional full sized radiator, or at least a 3/4, in a v-mount to prevent the water from ever heating up to more than a few degrees over ambient.

And without the power steering pump or AC, there should be plenty of room for an additional water pump to run full sized piping. That and I like to build crazy Frankenstienian things. .

Hmmmm, let's see if you described my AWIC kit. Heat exchanger nearly as big as the radiator, check. High flow water pump, check. 3/4" hoses, check. Over sized intercooler core, check. And it doesn't look like Frankenstein designed it.

[metalmaker12]

Waiting for motor I have been busy with the HE installed, some custom cutting on my lower aluminum and mounted lines and pump
Also plx device modules all wired in.
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[ssssly]

But things are way cooler when it looks like Frankenstein designed it. All steampunky.

But yeah, was affirming your design. Similar to the path I am looking at.

Have also been under secret development to use the factory AC pump as a AWIC water chiller.

[C.Plavan]

But things are way cooler when it looks like Frankenstein designed it. All steampunky.

But yeah, was affirming your design. Similar to the path I am looking at.

Have also been under secret development to use the factory AC pump as a AWIC water chiller.


The A/C thing would be great for 818R's but most dry sump pumps take over the A/C location

[sponaugle]

Have also been under secret development to use the factory AC pump as a AWIC water chiller.

In the GT-R world fuel temps are a problem, especially if you are running E85 or E98. Once you get over 1300whp you are usually looking at three very large fuel pumps, and that adds lots of heat to the fuel.

Alpha has introduced a fuel cooling solution that uses the AC system:

http://amsperformance.com/amsperformanceimages/5/Marketing/Fuelcoolerfront.jpg

You can see the fuel lines and AC lines go into that small exchanger. It doesn't need to be large given the temperature differential. It would be equally easy to run the AWIC water system thru the same kind of adapter, and then you could run the AC on cool down laps to cool the water down. It would even be possible to have the AC running all the time but disabled above 20% tps, and then it would not be taking away power except when you are slowing down.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

Waiting for motor I have been busy with the HE installed, some custom cutting on my lower aluminum and mounted lines and pump
Also plx device modules all wired in.
33322 3332033321

Nice! Are you putting the gauges inside the dash, or on the column?

JEff

[metalmaker12]

Wow, want that ****

[metalmaker12]

Nice! Are you putting the gauges inside the dash, or on the column?

JEff

In the dash I have and stri boost,plx dm-6 touch, and an stri oil pressure, not completely done for my reveal. The fuel cooler is sick!!!

[metalmaker12]

Hey with this ultra 55000 air fed coolant thing, it has a weird air line fitting I have never used before and I can't find it anywhere. I will post a pic Lata

33323

[xatudor]

Never seen one of those, but it does look like you should be able to unscrew it from the valve and use whatever fitting you need/want to. How much air does it use to and how much different in temperature does it make?

[Wayne Presley]

The fuel coolers are old school, they have been used for over 30 years. I've got an 1991 Aston Martin in the shop that has one. I know some of the 80's MBZ had them too.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hey with this ultra 55000 air fed coolant thing, it has a weird air line fitting I have never used before and I can't find it anywhere. I will post a pic Lata

33323

Looks like a coolant quick disconnect
http://www.mcmaster.com/#6739k52/=tmu4l4

http://www.mcmaster.com/#coolant-line-mold-couplings/=tmu6bm
Bob

[metalmaker12]

Blouch xtr 1.5 twinscroll showed up, 33410

[Brando]

That's quite a bit bigger and such a sweet turbo. I am upgrading to the same one...minus the twinscroll. Think the upgrade will be obvious?

[metalmaker12]

Umm yeahhhhhaaa lol that's the point. It will spool pretty quick on my end with the twin scroll and dual avcs, it will also hold power longer and have more power at the same boost levels. I am not going crazy and only going 16-18psi with boost coming on asap and holding soild till red line.

Got my dash mocked up, pod is going and I am going to move wheel forward 33411

[Erik W. Treves]

yum

[Aero STI]

Umm yeahhhhhaaa lol that's the point. It will spool pretty quick on my end with the twin scroll and dual avcs, it will also hold power longer and have more power at the same boost levels. I am not going crazy and only going 16-18psi with boost coming on asap and holding soild till red line.

Got my dash mocked up, pod is going and I am going to move wheel forward 33411

How did you get Dual AVCS? Did you install V10 heads on your V8 shortblock?

[metros]

Dash looks awesome! What do you have around the column further up under the dash? Looks like a nice way to hide the mechanics and keep things tidy.

[JAubin]

+1 Nice work on the Dash. I'm planning on doing a similar layout with a few 60mm gauges, cool to see what it'll look like roughly...what are the switches to the left of the steering wheel?

[metalmaker12]

How did you get Dual AVCS? Did you install V10 heads on your V8 shortblock?

My B, AVCS, I got too excited and I am always talking subaru so I mixed my words up. Glad to see your paying attention, but that would be a nice upgrade.

[metalmaker12]

Dash looks awesome! What do you have around the column further up under the dash? Looks like a nice way to hide the mechanics and keep things tidy.

I have a carbon fabric wrap around the wires, but I am going to shorten column to lesson the gap.

[metalmaker12]

+1 Nice work on the Dash. I'm planning on doing a similar layout with a few 60mm gauges, cool to see what it'll look like roughly...what are the switches to the left of the steering wheel?

Dash, looks 818 correct, the switches are going to be for awic pump, and heat exhsust fans, and maybe something else.

[07FIREBLADE]

Wouldn't you want the pump to constantly be running like in the engine after everything is heated up of course. Wouldn't it be easier to just run an ignition hot for your pump? Yes it puts on an additional load when starting the car up but its something that you wont forget to switch on and off. I know you will have a gauge to monitor the system just a little more idiot proof IMO. Thats the way I have my setup running. Also the amount of time added by having the pump constantly running isn't really going to hinder service life in my application. Since Im using the Meziere w136, which has a life of 3000hrs prior to rebuild. Thats alot of seat time.

[metalmaker12]

Wouldn't you want the pump to constantly be running like in the engine after everything is heated up of course. Wouldn't it be easier to just run an ignition hot for your pump? Yes it puts on an additional load when starting the car up but its something that you wont forget to switch on and off. I know you will have a gauge to monitor the system just a little more idiot proof IMO. Thats the way I have my setup running. Also the amount of time added by having the pump constantly running isn't really going to hinder service life in my application. Since Im using the Meziere w136, which has a life of 3000hrs prior to rebuild. Thats alot of seat time.

With the switch and the indicator light I will know it's on, cars to loud to hear the pump. I am using the Bosch pump for now, but yours is a nice unit.

[D Clary]

I want to be able to run the fans and the pump when the engine is shut down. This will cool down quickly between sessions.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I want to be able to run the fans and the pump when the engine is shut down. This will cool down quickly between sessions.
On the Subaru with factory ECU, If Hot, Do the fans continue to run after the key is off?

Edit: Never mind, I see one side if the fan relays is on the ignition circuit. It cannot run after key is off.

[Wayne Presley]

I'd set up the automatically pump to run any time the motor is running, then if wanted an overide switch run the pump in between sessions/runs.

[metalmaker12]

On the Subaru with factory ECU, If Hot, Do the fans continue to run after the key is off?

Edit: Never mind, I see one side if the fan relays is on the ignition circuit. It cannot run after key is off.

You can tune the fans to run all the time in the on position/running. I am

[metalmaker12]

Finished up the pin plates and rear bonnet mesh and trim, also heat exchanger and pump are all wired in 3354833550, waiting on machine shop for my engine

[AZPete]

You might want to rethink your speaker mounts.

[metalmaker12]

Lol

[BrandonDrums]

So earlier guys were talking about the risk of heat soak on an AWIC setup on long road courses. Doing an oversized radiator, oversized Heat Exchanger and high-flow water pump will help but what about borrowing the fuel cooler idea for the AWIC setup? Instead of running ice through the water tank, what about running a small evaporator core through the box? Then instead of dumping ice in it which eventually melts, you can toggle on the AC when the water temps start to rise.

It's all aluminium, could be fabbed up pretty easy...

[metalmaker12]

So earlier guys were talking about the risk of heat soak on an AWIC setup on long road courses. Doing an oversized radiator, oversized Heat Exchanger and high-flow water pump will help but what about borrowing the fuel cooler idea for the AWIC setup? Instead of running ice through the water tank, what about running a small evaporator core through the box? Then instead of dumping ice in it which eventually melts, you can toggle on the AC when the water temps start to rise.
It's all aluminium, could be fabbed up pretty easy...

This idea has crossed my mind as well, but it will have to be in time and over some testing.

[Scargo]

An interesting idea. Way over my head except for anecdotal information I can offer. There are thermoelectric cooling plates which could be attached to the exterior of an intercooler; possibly even built into it. Takes alternator/battery power to operate. An A/C requires power. I don't know what the trade-offs are but if the battery is sitting there anyway... why not use it? Perhaps the best application might be autocross or short track events where the power in the battery is like free power... or cheating and getting away with it. Perhaps the 818 could use a giant battery in the front to positively affect weight distribution and add ballast, if needed?

A/C still has to get rid of heat. Where do you do that? A condenser coil in front of the engine's radiator just heats up the engine a little more unless you have excess radiator capacity to begin with. Perhaps you need the added weight in front (see above)? It adds long lines down the car. I already dislike the radiator being in front and the lines running from front to back.
I haven't seen anyone using the side intakes for anything. That air could be channeled into radiators and ducted out the back without letting it mix with engine compartment air.
I think only in terms of a racing environment. However, if it's a street car and you lose a little power from heat what's the big deal? Heat-soak is probably only going to occur in racing conditions.

[Wayne Presley]

Guys, after playing with my AWIC on the dyno with limited low speed air flow over the HE and seeing only a 9° change over nearly 2 hours and 15+ pulls, I'm sure that in a 30 minute on track the temps will still be in control.

[nkw8181]

I think Wayne has designed a great system ("plug" I know), and I'm going to take a play from my roommates play book. I'll be working on something and he will ask "why are you over complicating it?" and I'll say " I didn't think I was". He follows up by showing me the very simple way that should have been obvious which sometimes includes removing the complexity I just added. I say all this because I had considered using the stock A/C to cool the AWIC. I decided against it on the premise that the delta gain in performance seems negligible. I would think that in order to make any cooling addition worth wild it would need to add atleast 20 maybe 30 degrees delta T. Since the T is close to ambient I would need to have the inlet temp drop well below ambient. The power loss that occurs from having the A/C pump vs the potential gain wasn't enticing enough for me. I decided that for me it would be a wash or loss in overall performance as well as adding complexity. Perhaps the battery powered idea could work in short bursts. What kind of delta T do you think you could get without draining the battery before the session is over? This is just my .02 but thought I'd chime in since it is something I have looked into and I want to "try" to give back since I've learned so much from everyone.

[metalmaker12]

Guys, after playing with my AWIC on the dyno with limited low speed air flow over the HE and seeing only a 9° change over nearly 2 hours and 15+ pulls, I'm sure that in a 30 minute on track the temps will still be in control.

This data will be my evidence that the kit is good as is for every application.

[JAubin]

Regarding Thermoelectric Modules, the company I work for manufactures them, and even the most expensive ones on the market are really inefficient at higher heat loads (ie the cooling loads necessary to drop the volume of air coming into a motor). I'm not sure how many Watts are dissipated by an intercooler in a turbo motor offhand, but it's significant enough that you would need to put an awful lot of current into the system for it to work effectively. And from what I've seen you might need ~200W to move ~300W from a system (and the heat rejection would need to be much higher is my guess). These devices are excellent for applications that have a small temp differential and low power, and/or need very precise temp control...but a refrigeration cycle crushes them on efficieny at higher load applications.

Based on what I've seen/read I'm planning on going AWIC, as it's good insurance for your investment, regardless if you're making 250 or 350 hp IMHO.

[BrandonDrums]

An interesting idea. Way over my head except for anecdotal information I can offer. There are thermoelectric cooling plates which could be attached to the exterior of an intercooler; possibly even built into it. Takes alternator/battery power to operate. An A/C requires power. I don't know what the trade-offs are but if the battery is sitting there anyway... why not use it? Perhaps the best application might be autocross or short track events where the power in the battery is like free power... or cheating and getting away with it. Perhaps the 818 could use a giant battery in the front to positively affect weight distribution and add ballast, if needed?

A/C still has to get rid of heat. Where do you do that? A condenser coil in front of the engine's radiator just heats up the engine a little more unless you have excess radiator capacity to begin with. Perhaps you need the added weight in front (see above)? It adds long lines down the car. I already dislike the radiator being in front and the lines running from front to back.
I haven't seen anyone using the side intakes for anything. That air could be channeled into radiators and ducted out the back without letting it mix with engine compartment air.
I think only in terms of a racing environment. However, if it's a street car and you lose a little power from heat what's the big deal? Heat-soak is probably only going to occur in racing conditions.

I like the thermocouple Idea for many if not mostly other reasons. I've often wondered why they haven't been used on modern Hybrids, cheap, light and even though they don't make a ton of energy there's not much downside. Toss a few plates in the rad on a Prius and it's a nice additional marketing point.

As for the AC system dealing with heat, the same argument can be made for Air to Air systems vs. air to water. Water can evacuate more heat than air can, refrigerant can evacuate more heat than water. Not by being refrigerant but by actually being pressurized and changing states. Pressurize the refrigerant on one end causing it to condense into liquid from the pressure and concentrate it's heat energy into one place, the higher comparative temperature between ambient and the condensed refrigerant allows dramatically more heat to be drawn away. Then it evaporates into a gas as it depressurizes and cools to a dramatically lower comparative temperature to ambient allowing more heat to flow into it.

It might put some additional resistance on the engine but think of it as a supercharger for the coolant system. It can potentially make far more gains than it grabs in parasitic losses. Cooler air blowing into the engine means you can make more power with less fuel...

What might be the most interesting concept is actually using the AC system directly as the core for an intercooler. Rather than air to water to refrigerant, what about air to refrigerant intercooling? You have to run a water pump on the air to water intercooler system, what's the problem just running an AC pump and not an extra water pump aside from being a bit more load than a low pressure water pump?

If I could fab up stuff in aluminium I'd start testing this idea immediately.

[metalmaker12]

In the mean time of waiting for machine shop. They have 8 subie motors there right now among other manufactures but mine is supposed to be done this coming week.

I put my doors together, I am very happy with the way the came out.

342413424234243

I also fit my front bumper on again for better HE clearance.
3424434245

[Frank818]

Quality of your body panels cannot be better, it's just... perfect.

Nice rubbers for your front hood, must sit pretty well with those. I have to remember that and do something similar.

[metalmaker12]

The panels came out nice and straight with paint laying down flat with very little dust. In the sun it's so very bright white it hurts my eyes. The base is spices hecker 501 bright white with no tints. My accents will be with wrap and custom decals.

Here's my headers and turbo waiting for there home 34247

[RM1SepEx]

Chris, how many hrs for bodywork? I like the way you captured the front of the hood, very clean. Paintwork looks excellent!

[metalmaker12]

I would say about 100-150 hours for fitting and all sanding,body filling, fiberglass work , priming and painting. It's about a 5-8k job at a body shop. If you fit it and just want bodywork and just paint it might be like 3k range, but different shops have different rates.

I am very happy with how it came out, all the sanding and painting paid off and I really like the bright white on this car!!

[metalmaker12]

Here's my engine build specs:
machine shop - balance rotating assembly
machine shop - bore and hone Subaru EJ block with torque plate machine shop - CNC resurface cylinder block deck
machine shop - jet wash/ final clean cylinder block
machine shop - resurface cylinder head (single)
machine shop - cylinder head surface lapping (race/high performance application, per head) machine shop - valve job, 4-cylinder, 16V, with cams
machine shop - set valve lash, Subaru EJ engine w/ shimless buckets
complete engine gasket kit for Subaru EJ205 engine
valve cover gasket for EJ207 engine, right
valve cover gasket for EJ207 engine, left
plug, cylinder head/valve cover (not included in gasket kit) o-ring for AVCS cam pulley cover
camshaft oil seal for Subaru DOHC turbo engine (AVCS camshaft) Subaru OEM case bolts for EJ engine
Killer B oil pan with pickup and baffle
Subaru OEM oil dipstick for EJ257 oil pan

CP forged piston set for Subaru EJ205; 8.5:1 CR, 92.5mm bore, with rings and wrist pins ARP head stud kit for Subaru EJ257 engine
ACL main bearings, Subaru EJ engine
ACL connecting rod bearings,
Jdm Sti rods ( my rods), or other, making decision soon!!

This setup with Sti rods is good for around 450, some have made even more. I might still put even stronger ones in, but its overkill to IMO

[shinn497]

I'm curious. What are you plans for paint/color?

[metalmaker12]

Good joke, or....It's is painted and white is the color.

[wallace18]

Panels and paint look super! great job! I can't wait to see final outcome.

[Tamra]

Looking good!

Your car is going to be done just in time for winter, that's no fun.

[metalmaker12]

Looking good!

Your car is going to be done just in time for winter, that's no fun.

Your not kidding, but oh well next season.

[metalmaker12]

Panels and paint look super! great job! I can't wait to see final outcome.

Thanks, as does your 818, I can't wait either, but this project has taught me an even stricter amount of patience.

[Frank818]

Next season? So a year and a half after you started it?
Will take that long cuz of the engine issue or the build itself?

[BrandonDrums]

Next season? So a year and a half after you started it?
Will take that long cuz of the engine issue or the build itself?

No, because it's going to be COOOLLD going that fast over the winter in New England!

[metalmaker12]

No, because it's going to be COOOLLD going that fast over the winter in New England!

What he said... A daaaaa ....A....j/k

Actually my engine should be returning within the next month, machine shop is wicked swamped and I am in no rush, plus they will cut me a deal since I have been waiting. Once I get it, I will install it and get the cart running again, than final body install.

[Frank818]

plus they will cut me a deal since I have been waiting.

Lucky you, don't say no to that, if my mech would have cut me a deal due to the horrible and unacceptable wait he puts me in, he would actually pay me for every day since the car is at the shop. :)

Hopefully your body install won't be too long, you've already done it anyway. :)

[metalmaker12]

I got a chance to go to Thompson Speedway on sat for a circuit one autocross test drive. I got behind the wheel of a GTR for 7 laps and a F430 for two laps. I have video with GTR but I haven't fully loaded it yet. There fast, sweet looking and well built, comfortable, etc etc, but they got nothing on the 818 in and performance basis for autocross. This was a short coarse autocross and I was not trying to kill the cars, plus it was raining. King Kong (GTR) has incredible power delivery and great braking along with the best computer assisted baby sitters I have ever driven. A grandmother could track this car, it's even comfortable enough for long trips. It's pretty much an all around masterpiece, but not my cup of yea because I am a sports car purest and it is just to easy to drive and to much computer assist for my liking. The F430 is a bit more race car inspired and feels closer to what a sport cars should feel like, but it was raining and I had no chance of real traction. I was getting the GTR to drift all around the corners and the Ferrari didn't want any of the rain. So a fair comparison is not in the cards this week. Stay tuned!!!

3457234571345683456934570

[Hindsight]

...but not my cup of yea because I am a sports car purest and it is just to easy to drive and to much computer assist for my liking.

I'm with you there. It took me 18 years to realize that there is nothing more fun than a super light, raw, no luxuries, high powered car. Driving around the more modern, heavy, high horsepower cars is ok, but it's a little like being on Valium. I feel the perfect combination in the garage is a luxurious, comfortable, high MPG commuter car, and a small, light, powerful, pure sports car.

That said, I'm still going to get the RaceLogic traction control in the 818 because I don't want to die :eek:

[sponaugle]

I got a chance to go to Thompson Speedway on sat for a circuit one autocross test drive. I got behind the wheel of a GTR for 7 laps and a F430 for two laps. I have video with GTR but I haven't fully loaded it yet. There fast, sweet looking and well built, comfortable, etc etc, but they got nothing on the 818 in and performance basis for autocross. This was a short coarse autocross and I was not trying to kill the cars, plus it was raining. King Kong (GTR) has incredible power delivery and great braking along with the best computer assisted baby sitters I have ever driven. A grandmother could track this car, it's even comfortable enough for long trips. It's pretty much an all around masterpiece, but not my cup of yea because I am a sports car purest and it is just to easy to drive and to much computer assist for my liking. The F430 is a bit more race car inspired and feels closer to what a sport cars should feel like, but it was raining and I had no chance of real traction. I was getting the GTR to drift all around the corners and the Ferrari didn't want any of the rain. So a fair comparison is not in the cards this week. Stay tuned!!!


That is a good description of the GT-R. I bought one for almost those exact reasons. My Subarus are fast and light, the GTO is fast and scary, and the 818 will be both! The GT-R fills the void as an incredible car to drive around town and in the twisties, especially in the foul weather NW. The stability control is next to none, and the natural tractive balance makes it very easy to drive fast. It is also just plain fast. On street tires exactly as I drive it to work it will pull off 10.7 1/4s run after run. The ECM is one of the best factories ECMs I have tuned. It has excellent real time wideband AFR feedback at all loads, a great multimap selectable feature, flex-fuel, traction control, and very fast logging.

It is however a heavy car, and is nothing like driving a small, light, high hp race car. I just put new turbos on my GT-R that are about 800whp capable, so that will help to offset the weight in the straights, but not the bends. I can't wait to get my 818 on the road!

And as hindsight said, I too am doing traction control because I don't want to die. :)

Jeff

[metalmaker12]

It's was a blast of a time!!, someday I might get a GTR but very used and for like 30k. I am income challenged lol.

[Frank818]

I might get a GTR but very used and for like 30k.

You might be missing the engine for that price. :)

[Frank818]

Metal, you've driven the 818 (S) many times so far right?

With the standard 350lbs front, yellow shocks and S aero, what's your opinion on the use of the front (subaru rear) sway bar? It is really recommended or it's more like up to anyone's taste and feeling depending on anyone's driving habits?

[metalmaker12]

Metal, you've driven the 818 (S) many times so far right?

With the standard 350lbs front, yellow shocks and S aero, what's your opinion on the use of the front (subaru rear) sway bar? It is really recommended or it's more like up to anyone's taste and feeling depending on anyone's driving habits?

The 818 S sits pretty flat under almost any cornering situation. Nicks had a sway bar, and I could feel it working the few times I turn through some curves under moderate speed. The sway bar is intended for the hard cornering of an autocross ,tight track , or heavy turn in or out situations. It will help reduce a slight body roll that the S has due to its higher ride height ( higher center of gravity). Is it really needed, no, but it can't hurt to cover all the bases and have every angle covered.

[Frank818]

Great, I like that explanation. So it covers all the bases without any drawbacks? I mean ride comfort is not affected in situations where the sway bar doesn't play its role?

I am about to cut the sway bar brackets, but I guess I should wait longer. Anyway I can still cut them in a year.

[tmoretta]

So the sway bar in the front does not induce excessive understeer?

[DMC7492]

I had my engine in to the shop. 2005 EJ205 They recommended ARPStuds on the case and the heads acl bearings throughout and Manley turbo Tuff rods and side skirt coated Manley pistons..010" over 8.5 CR. 750deatsch injectors with a Blouche TD 05-18 xt turbo. ported heads and Grimspeed PNP manifolds with high flow crossover...stock cams
Engine ran great in stock form then overhauled. Any idea on the H.P. capability of this combination with a moderate boost?

[metalmaker12]

My guess would be around 275-300 whp/ 270-295 wt @ 18 psi on pump gas. Tuff to say really, but that's the average. More boost will yield more power along with other fuels and IC pressure drops etc etc.

[metalmaker12]

Motors back and I am getting that vroom feeling, hopefully I can drop it in by tues

Got my break in oil: check
Torque wrench: check
All gaskets and torque specs: check
355033550435505

[Tamra]

Nice! So did they fully assemble it for you? I bet you can't wait to have it on the road again.

[metalmaker12]

I had Russ Johnson in Warwick R.I do the machine work of the bores and the heads. Btw very excellent!!!! machine shop for any engine with 40 years of experience guys. It did not need a line hone, and everthing measured out perfect except one bore. I than had Wicked Innovation in NH assemble to longblock. I have been part of around 4 subaru full rebuilds in the past, from a few years working as a subie tech and just fun builds with friends, but I don't own all the required tools any longer, plus Wicked does such spot on work for me that I decided to have them do it up, they did an excellent job. I just gotta finish up the intake manifold and all the small coolant lines and hook up my perrin Aos, new turbo etc etc etc tune for new injectors etc etc. stickshift84 came up to NH today to talk shop with my friend Jay and Tom at Wicked, we talked shop for like two hours, and would have kept talking but a customer showed up. I am very excited to get it running and break the new mill in. Should make a great powerband and be reliable too.

[sponaugle]

Congrats on the motor build.. looks fantastic!

[Santiago]

Excellent Smithers...release the hounds!

[metalmaker12]

Going hard on it now, almost ready to drop

[C.Plavan]

Get that thing in already :)

[metalmaker12]

Got most of it together, just gotta install flywheel, clutch, tranny and run the Pcv setup to the Aos and install header studs and mounts, than check it all over and drop 35543

[Frank818]

, than check it all over and drop

...and drive! :)

[svanlare]

Excellent, great to see it coming back together.

[Pearldrummer7]

I think we need a start up video!

[metalmaker12]

Ok I post one if I remember

[metalmaker12]

Motors in for the second run. I had stickshift84 lend a hand. We tried his method of engine in first alone. It works pretty well, you just gotta get the engine at the right pitch for the tranny to slide in. Either way has it's pros and cons. 356263562735628

[MrDude_1]

Its probably here but Im missing it.... What color or coating is that on the intake manifold? Looks really good.

[metalmaker12]

Kbs ceramic Grey coating, 35633

Good stuff holds up forever, and brushes on. Bakes on @200-300 degrees.

I also came across chassis savor for the frame that's basically Por 15 but way cheaper.

[Frank818]

Are you also using that KBS on your exhaust pipes and headers?

[xxguitarist]

You mentioned break-in oil. What are you running for break-in, then what's the plan for later down the road? We're planning to default to T6.

[Kalstar]

Where is the vid? I'm turning blue holding my breath.

[metalmaker12]

You mentioned break-in oil. What are you running for break-in, then what's the plan for later down the road? We're planning to default to T6.

35649This is the break in oil, I will run for 350-400 miles drain ( ps it drains very thin, that's normal) and fill with Rotella T synthetic 5w-30 ( best oil for these motors) and you can get it at walmart.

Also frank my headers are wrapped now.

[metalmaker12]

Not going to be for awhile, taking my time to get it all nice nice

[Frank818]

Ok so you wrapped but did not ceramic coat under.

[STiPWRD]

35626
Sweet beer pong table. We used to have a functional beer pong room in the basement but at the moment it's covered with aluminum sheet metal and car parts scattered everywhere.

[metalmaker12]

Ok so you wrapped but did not ceramic coat under.

There coated also

[metalmaker12]

Sweet beer pong table. We used to have a functional beer pong room in the basement but at the moment it's covered with aluminum sheet metal and car parts scattered everywhere.

I am a serious beer pong player, strick rules, no blowing or fingering allowed on table!! Lol

[Frank818]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=_H2tQeeSltY

Wipers are working and clear hood, I made them myself like Erik, should be getting plates this week. It's hitting my sticker, so gotta place that higher... Or just take the wiper off once I get plates.

Metal, I asked a few things about this kit, which helped me understand where on my options list I could use that solution, but I never asked about the parts you used. Are they all from donor or you used something different?

And I guess you used the 1-arm wiper solution cuz with 2 arms it wouldn't clear the hood?

[metalmaker12]

Metal, I asked a few things about this kit, which helped me understand where on my options list I could use that solution, but I never asked about the parts you used. Are they all from donor or you used something different?

And I guess you used the 1-arm wiper solution cuz with 2 arms it wouldn't clear the hood?

It's all from the donor with some use of scrap metal for small brackets, bolts, nuts,and rivets hood support. It works pretty well for something I created in about two hours, I have close up pics posted somewhere. I could have made two wipers work, just more time consuming. If I had more time I could make a kit work with what we have and not have to cut the hood for prob the same price as FFR's.

[Frank818]

Very interesting. So your solution is to slightly change the "natural" curvature of the hood to clear out both OEM arms (if I recall Dan thinks the same). I'll give it a try around June, unless I can spend 40h a week on the car for the next 4-5 months, while still working on my other job 5 days a week.

Let us know you if decide to build and sell a kit.
Have a nice game tonight.

[metalmaker12]

Yeah nice game, the bruins are hurting pretty bad this season.

[metalmaker12]

So I had some time to mock up my heat shield and put on my turbo blanket after I installed new poly bushings for my lower control arms and installed axles. The poly bushings and full group n mounts should make things very solid. Not really done, I have to trim tower brace slightly and debur some edges. It's ok looking and was just a prototype I won't be using, I am going try something else that's cleaner looking when I trim the tower brace. I am going to wrap my exhaust like my headers and this should all help with heat and look good too.

[metalmaker12]

Installed and Primed my awic system
Filled coolant system
Filled engine break in oil
Filled gearbox lube
Primed oil system
Hooked up post IC temp sensor

Gotta run base map for new injectors for start up. I had to mount awic slightly different to create better room for my factory bov and my truck brace, but I got it, just gotta make a different rear bracket.

3610736108

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Installed and Primed my awic system
Filled coolant system
Filled engine break in oil
Filled gearbox lube
Primed oil system
Hooked up post IC temp sensor

Gotta run base map for new injectors for start up. I had to mount awic slightly different to create better room for my factory bov and my truck brace, but I got it, just gotta make a different rear bracket.

3610736108

Hey Chris,
Looking good,
On the bleed valve you put on your AWIC. How thick was the metal there?
I like the bar you over the AWIC. What is the height of the bar from bottom of shock support brace to the top of the bar you added?

Thanks
Bob

[Frank818]

I like the bar you over the AWIC. What is the height of the bar from bottom of shock support brace to the top of the bar you added?

I second that, I like it too and I too need to know that height (for other purpose).

tnx

[Kalstar]

Well done and looks great. Seems like a great solution.

[metalmaker12]

It's just some stainless bar I had bent into position. It is 8" from bottom36109

[Frank818]

And the deck lid simply sits on the bar for added strength?

[metalmaker12]

Yeah, I will be placing a rubber sleve on the bar to reduce friction etc. it also helps with the seem and shape of the truck. You will see when you start getting the panels together. Keep in mind my frame is #13 so revision to the body molds might have been made, so my mods might not be needed. You have to mod as you go

[Frank818]

I have to mod so many things I don't think the body panels will be an exception. :) But I get it, yes.

I will most probably have to invert the rear tower brace (cut it and weld it with the transverse bar at the top instead of bottom), and cut and raise the horizontal v-bar over your manifold, I'll try to use those as a support and extend with a bar or something between, if needed. Anyway I'll see when I get there, but I admit when the car is home the project runs MUCH faster! Almost 4h a day in average, now.

Nothing to do with the above, remind me, you will keep the car white?

[metalmaker12]

I have to mod so many things I don't think the body panels will be an exception. :) But I get it, yes.

I will most probably have to invert the rear tower brace (cut it and weld it with the transverse bar at the top instead of bottom), and cut and raise the horizontal v-bar over your manifold, I'll try to use those as a support and extend with a bar or something between, if needed. Anyway I'll see when I get there, but I admit when the car is home the project runs MUCH faster! Almost 4h a day in average, now.
P
Nothing to do with the above, remind me, you will keep the car white?

Yeah it's all painted super bright white bro. In paint form with a bright pure white the panels are much brighter and more shinny with the clear than the gelcoat which is almost an off white. So the panels are like ten times brighter in the sun etc. gunmetal was my second choice, but I like white with black/gunmetal accents most.

[Samiam1017]

What your break in method? On the basic forum if you ask they say ask you engine builder. But I have a brand new stock block still 257 so I don't know who he/she was to ask. Thx

[metalmaker12]

What your break in method? On the basic forum if you ask they say ask you engine builder. But I have a brand new stock block still 257 so I don't know who he/she was to ask. Thx

Prime oil pressure till oil light goes out or around 15-20 psi on a gauge.
Make sure engine is running correctly, right tune and no vacuum or other leaks ,
Use break in oil in my post #939 and drive with it for 50-60 miles and drain

Fill with a recommend oil, I like Rotella T6

Keep boost and rev lower for the first 1000 miles with occasional gradual pulls.

[Samiam1017]

Thx what oil filter do you recommend I was told only use factory or pure one. But most of the cars I've parted out had fram??

[Wayne Presley]

I like the K&N or Mobil 1 filters for the off shelf filters.

[metalmaker12]

Oem filters or you can use Honda filters which are better and larger. Some subie guys use s2000 filters. I tend to use oem black or blue ones. The black are pretty hard to come across but are the higher performance type.

I am running a map after work tomorrow for a start up video. Stay tuned!!

[longislandwrx]

I typically use a Purolator PureOne/OEM/Mobile One... The factory filters are good, and if you buy a 6/12 pack online are not a bad deal. I've never tried the s2000 trick... it's always casually mentioned but I've never seen a convincing post about it.

[Tamra]

Oem filters or you can use Honda filters which are better and larger. Some subie guys use s2000 filters. I tend to use oem black or blue ones. The black are pretty hard to come across but are the higher performance type.

I am running a map after work tomorrow for a start up video. Stay tuned!!

Good luck. I bet you can't wait to have it going again!

[metalmaker12]

I am deff happy to get it going again, I don't get to blow things up and fix them for myself to many times so it's a good experience. Hopefully I did everything right and no vacum leaks etc. we will see. Since it's kinda cold out I am running the oem ebc, but I have a hallman mbc and a Cobb 3 port ebc handy for when time comes for real tuning. I will prob just try out each at some point , but the 3 port or mbc has never failed me before. Oem would be good, but the restrictor pill will hurt spool on my dom 1.5 unless I mod the pill correctly. The 3 port is a sure bet to work well all around while the mbc will get a more linear boost feel but possable ill effects if not tuned just right and it won't be as versitile in all temperature conditions. Also the mbc will be in full boost sooner and more often the way I drive which will create more heat. Heat and 818= bad

[metalmaker12]

2nd first start.
It idled great and sounded smooth other than the cam advance correction the ecu was trying to compensate. 9/10 it's a sensor.
I have to burp coolant system because air must be trapped so my temp decided to clim to like 215 and I turned it off on the warm up.

Also my drivers intake cam sensor is reading the cam is advanced by 67 degrees. I could hear it not runnig correctly, should just be a sensor since this po365 code came up priviously
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=JAyBmVNH4Ewas I mention in video, it sounds advanced, to me anyhow, and the log proves it.

Another day in the life of a car builder lol

[metalmaker12]

So I diagnosed my issue.

I swapped the avcs cam sensor and solenoid and code still comes back on. In my experience this leads me to believe the cam sprocket is culprit. I picked one up and will swap it out this weekend in car. I actually think there is enough room, especially if I remove firewall. Another day another dollar and experience.

[Wayne Presley]

There is room, I changed cams, springs and retainers in an 818 with the motor in the chassis

[Tamra]

Excuse my ignorance, but how is the sprocket itself the problem, or how is it damaged to cause the problem?

[Wayne Presley]

The sprocket has the advance/retard mechanism in it.

[metalmaker12]

Yeah the avcs heads have these sprockets 3619536196. When there not broken inside life is good, but when they break, bad things can happen like intake cam timing advance or retard and problems like detonation etc can occur. Kinda wish I had looked at it prior to install, guess I kind of forgot about it with all that is going on in life.

[JeromeS13]

They can also get clogged or get debris in there (especially when you lose a motor).

[metalmaker12]

Good news: got avcs issue panned out. It was an wiring issue. My grey engine connector had too little slack and from my constant abuse and tugging on it actually broke a couple connections and caused the weird cam angle reading and PO365 bank 1 code. Once I dug into it and saw that the bank 1 wires were damaged I knew I was in like flinn. Wayne helped me diagnosis the avcs system along with my own wire diagnostics was able to narrow it down to a wiring issue. I have not logged it yet, but will soon to fully know I am in the clear, I suspect I am. No codes remain and I burped and drove the cart around today, it performed well as always. Here's a better video
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A-5M_ierqe8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


http://youtu.be/A-5M_ierqe8

[RM1SepEx]

congrats Chris!

[Frank818]

And you're done! :)

[metalmaker12]

I am never done

[Tamra]

Congrats!

[Frank818]

I am never done

Yup, I was joking.

[metalmaker12]

I knew I needed fire protection
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SuPz41avCgw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Frank818]

Now what have you done again, it wasn't enough breaking your engine and.... oh! Now I see the fire, "that" fire. :) That's good fire. Goooooooooooood! :)

BTW, do you know how to make that fire? More timing, less, more fuel, less, what are the ingredients?

[metalmaker12]

It's running a bit rich under wot (10.8-11.3) with 1000cc injectors so there's some fuel. The cam profile overlap helps with the fire also. Plus the exhaust is very short on these cars so any bit rich should make fire. I can send a log once I start doing a few. I took it for an 1-2nd gear cruise, on and off throttle to help seat rings.

Ps guys don't leave gas to long in our 818 tanks, mine was no good and I had to drain! It happened much quicker than I thought it would. Once I got some new gas in there the tune started to make sense lol.

[Frank818]

Ps guys don't leave gas to long in our 818 tanks, mine was no good and I had to drain! It happened much quicker than I thought it would. Once I got some new gas in there the tune started to make sense lol.

Oh no! :( That could be a problem. My gas sits from Nov-Dec to March-April the next year. Can't run it during winter.
I guess I'll use some gas stabilizer over the winters, then.

By "not too long", that's what? 1 month? 1 week?
Anything under 3-4months is not normal...


EDIT: One other thing: how did you drain it? You removed it and flipped it over? Took a vacuum of some kind? Did like Cheech and Chong by dropping a hose in and sucking it up with your mouth? :)

[metalmaker12]

Lol you guys must have some good stuff up there frank. I hooked up to return and hooked up pump to a battery. I also pumped out by hand pump the little bit left on the bottom. It was 8-10months. 3-6 months is typically an issue if one is going to happen. It is the build of of condensation that creates water in fuel, due to the break down of the additives and ethanol attracts moisture.

[Frank818]

Less or no ethanol (like we have here on 91+) and fuel stabilizer should then fix it during the winter. Good to know!

[metalmaker12]

Nick and I logged my 818 briefly prior to going to a local brewery. Btw tilted brewery is great!!

Ps: blame Nick for deleting the log lol. It was his cold fingers

11.25 afr @ wot and trimmed off pretty nicely for a base map. Wayne's awic worked well under some boost with only getting to 51 degrees throttle body iat temp when ambient was 38. It stayed there and did not move as I drove around a few times into boost etc. The real awic test will come summer, but I suspect will hold it's own. I mapped the radiator fans to kick on at 185 which might help in the warmer months when cars sitting and running. The power is now much broader and I have not even tapped the turbos keg.
Only drove her easy 4-5 k and there was plenty of power
Boost was set at 16 psi which with the stock ebc and pill is very restrictive to the turbo setup. I have a Cobb 3 port that I will tune in shortly and a hallman if I feel like a little hybrid. But for break in this is a fine setup.The boost control with wgdc will bring my boost on right with the avcs and really give my 2.0 a super board powrband with 3500-3800 full spool but plenty of power prior with a wicked strong top end to 8k. I am thinking 18 psi max and tapering down will give me the desired power and turbo onset.

At this point I am going to break it in really good with some speed burst and deceleration to seat compression rings. Once I feel it's good ( it seems good already) I will prob start to place body on and just take my tune since old man winter is coming. Btw the 818 was not that cold to be in in 38degrees. The windshield does a great job of blocking air away from the passenger compartment.

It's time to double check stuff and keep car moving until we get snow= salt and cars goes night night. I will prob put body on over winter.

[Harley818]

Nice job Metalmaker. Glad you got it back together. Sounds like you are happy with initial results.....fingers crossed!

[metalmaker12]

Yeah I try not to cross fingers or knock on wood, I am confident it's built right and running very smooth on just a base map. As time progresses it should prove to be a very solid setup and last me some time. It feels good to drive the 818 again, such a fun little car!!

[Tamra]

Glad to hear it's back up and running. We'll have to meet next summer for autox :)

[metalmaker12]

Glad to hear it's back up and running. We'll have to meet next summer for autox :)

Yeah I prob won't autocross mine too much. Just wanna cruise ya know, but we could all meet up

[RM1SepEx]

Yeah I prob won't autocross mine too much. Just wanna cruise ya know.

We can all meet to autox at BNAS and pig out on lobster, come up for a weekend

[metalmaker12]

We can all meet to autox at BNAS and pig out on lobster, come up for a weekend

Where's bnas, I might trailer up and just chill, let me know.

[RM1SepEx]

Brunswick Maine, old airfield for P3s, Andrew and Tamra are planning on coming up to autocross. Come up and I can put you in a Rotax DD2 shifter kart too... mucho fun... double drive. Best autocross venue in the Northeast, by far, tons of very grippy concrete

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Brunswick+Executive+Airport/@43.8878246,-69.931143,148m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m3!3m2!1s0x4cad86da664f38b5:0xdeba1 a6889905d8e!4b1

the google earth photo was taken during an autocross. See the truck and trailer in the shade, next to the building... you can make out the two solar panels on the roof of my trailer! What looks like a dashed line in front of the executive jet are the barriers defining the end of our access.

[metalmaker12]

Merry Christmas to all3681836819

[Wayne Presley]

Merry Christmas Chris, enjoy the day with the family!

[metalmaker12]

Putting doors on tomorrow, it's just bolting up together and going smoothly this time, paint looks much better than just gel coat white and is a much brighter white. I am digging it, I am a white dark accent lover at heart. Once all together some vinyl graphics etc and aero. 36843368443684536846

[Frank818]

Those rims look great.
You rarely get snow in RI?

Do you think those R double openings will make a difference to exit the hot air or it's for looks?

[Hindsight]

Looking VERY nice! I like those wheels. Nice offset in the back.

[metalmaker12]

The upper level ducts absolutely flow a good amount of air out of the engine bay. The more venting the better in this car IMO. The offsets (Rear 18x9 +42 offset with +3mm spacer so +39 mm offset, Front is 17x8 +35mm) fit the body just right and they have a nice look with the cars lines and color accenting. I spent some time picking a wheel that flowed with my scehme.

Our weather is extremely warm for this time of year, it was 61 degrees on Christmas day. It is weird but helping me with car work for sure.

[wallace18]

Looking Good Man!