California Closing the Montana Loophole?

[Mike.Bray]

Interesting article on proposed legislation in California concerning the Montana loophole.

https://www.hotrod.com/news/californ...F5KEdmJfquKdAQ

[Blitzboy54]

I've always been of two minds on this. I pay my taxes and feel like other people should too. On the other hand it's a large bill after spending a lot of money to build the thing so I get why people do it. I was always more comfortable just doing what I needed to to be legal.

I recently traveled to Singapore. To own a car in there you have to purchase a permit paid to the state every ten years. It's the equivalent of $100,000. Plus the cost of the car and gas is roughly $11 a gallon. So $10k a year in perpetuity plus everything you actually own. Needless to say car ownership isn't high.

That also helped put it into perspective. This hobby would only be available to the ultra rich if I lived there.

[Waterman]

I see two reasons to go with Montana plates. Less cost and because the state licensing to get a replica on the road is very difficult. For those trying to avoid taxes on their new expensive Lambo or RV I say close the loophole. If you can afford the vehicle then pay your taxes. For those building a FFR or purchasing a semi complete FFR, I can see a need if the state paperwork is too difficult or impossible.

[acmikee]

they want the xtra money and the smog check every 2 years including diesel vehicles

[Jeff Kleiner]

... For those building a FFR or purchasing a semi complete FFR, I can see a need if the state paperwork is too difficult or impossible.

These cars can be titled and registered in all 50 states so it's not impossible. Some just don't like what is required to do so.

Jeff

[Mike.Bray]

I see two reasons to go with Montana plates. Less cost and because the state licensing to get a replica on the road is very difficult. For those trying to avoid taxes on their new expensive Lambo or RV I say close the loophole. If you can afford the vehicle then pay your taxes. For those building a FFR or purchasing a semi complete FFR, I can see a need if the state paperwork is too difficult or impossible.

I registered mine here in Texas and it was relatively quick and painless so I was happy with the process. And because Texas only taxes the sale of a motor vehicle there wasn't any tax due.

I looked at the Montana deal but decided against it. One of the issues with the Montana loophole is a lot of states, Texas included, have laws requiring out of state vehicles to be registered within 30 days or so of moving. You drive a vehicle with out of state plates long enough and it's probably going to get noticed. Especially one with Montana plates as car enthusiasts aren't the only ones that know about the loophole.

[Blitzboy54]

I registered mine here in Texas and it was relatively quick and painless so I was happy with the process. And because Texas only taxes the sale of a motor vehicle there wasn't any tax due.

I looked at the Montana deal but decided against it. One of the issues with the Montana loophole is a lot of states, Texas included, have laws requiring out of state vehicles to be registered within 30 days or so of moving. You drive a vehicle with out of state plates long enough and it's probably going to get noticed. Especially one with Montana plates as car enthusiasts aren't the only ones that know about the loophole.

I thought about doing it with my first build because of some of the potential issues Waterman brought up. I was going to register it in Montana, drive it for a few months until all the paperwork cleared, then sell it back to myself and register it in NY as a titled vehicle. I would not have avoided any taxes, just deferred them.

As it turned out the process in NY for me at least was pretty smooth. Although it can be daunting on paper upfront and there are some misteps that can cost you if you don't know early in the process.

[gbranham]

For those evading taxes by using the Montana loophole (and yes, its tax evasion, by definition, but those that do it can use whatever euphemism they want to sleep at night), this is pay me now or pay me later.

Greg

[drewr]

Just title it in California through SB100. It's not hard. It just takes a long time (3-6 months). It's not even that expensive comparatively speaking.

[JohnK]

CA is already prosecuting individuals and dealerships for tax evasion, even before this new bill.

https://www.foxla.com/news/californi...-tax-crackdown

My personal view is that if you can afford a Ferrari or McLaren, or an FFR build for that matter, you can afford to pay the registration on it.

[Kivyee]

I recently traveled to Singapore. To own a car in there you have to purchase a permit paid to the state every ten years. It's the equivalent of $100,000. Plus the cost of the car and gas is roughly $11 a gallon.

Not to mention the government taxes cars at about 300% tax. So you'd end up spending almost $200k for a friggin corolla. And yet did you count how many Mercs, BMWs and Audis were around?

So $10k a year in perpetuity plus everything you actually own. Needless to say car ownership isn't high.

I don't know about that - I mean, most households don't own multiple cars, true, but if you check the the roads and parking lots are chocked full. Their transportation system however is quite well developed, so its entirely possible and generally quite easy to live there relying purely on public transit.

[Blitzboy54]

Not to mention the government taxes cars at about 300% tax. So you'd end up spending almost $200k for a friggin corolla. And yet did you count how many Mercs, BMWs and Audis were around?



I don't know about that - I mean, most households don't own multiple cars, true, but if you check the the roads and parking lots are chocked full. Their transportation system however is quite well developed, so its entirely possible and generally quite easy to live there relying purely on public transit.

I guess that's more of an anecdotal comment. Most people I worked with and talked to didn't own cars or had one. Living in the US probably skews my perspective a little. I did make me wonder how a guy charging $50 for a ride from the airport is making it all work running an Uber. I also wonder when I go to Santa Clara how the waitress at Denny's survives on tips off a $10 breakfast special when rent starts at $3k+ a month for a 1 bdrm.

[Dgc333]

The issue with California doing this is the richest folks in California are already leaving the state, this will accelerate that. For the first time since California became a state there is a net out outflow of people and the folks moving in are the ones sucking on the public teat.

I have lived in Massachusetts my whole life and for the first time I am thinking of getting out for all the same reasons folks are leaving California. Big news in Massachusetts over the past couple of weeks is the New England Patriots are considering moving to New Hampshire, one of the reasons is Massachusetts hits anyone earning over a million dollars a year with a wealth tax. Players don't want to come to the Patriots because of that.

[rponfick]

I agree. It is both tax fraud and insurance fraud. In a recent accident by a Vette owner here in Colorado with a Montana registered car, the insurance company refused to pay the claim.
Ralph.

[Mike.Bray]

I agree. It is both tax fraud and insurance fraud. In a recent accident by a Vette owner here in Colorado with a Montana registered car, the insurance company refused to pay the claim.
Ralph.

That's a very interesting point! Like Jeff said, these cars can be titled in all 50 states (and Canada) so why take the chance. I researched it and decided against it even though in Texas I would not have saved any tax.

I see cars on BaT with Montana plates, I wonder what that does to the value.

[Wizbangdoodle]

We did the Montana thing with an RV we used to own. As to paying my taxes to be legal, don't get me started. The fees and taxes on EVERYTHING in this state are excessive. And while we pay all these taxes, our roads are ****. I feel that with the current amount of fraud going on in our government, a huge portion of my tax dollars are being wasted. So, yes, if I can find a loophole, I'm gonna use it. /rant

[Dgc333]

I agree. It is both tax fraud and insurance fraud. In a recent accident by a Vette owner here in Colorado with a Montana registered car, the insurance company refused to pay the claim.
Ralph.

Before I finished my 33 I looked into the Montana thing. I checked with Grundy about the insurance and they told me they didn't care where it was registered as long as the policy reflected where it was garaged.

In Massachusetts it is fairly easy to get a FFR car titled and registered. The hard part is either meeting or getting and exemption from the annual emissions testing. The only sure fire path is to buy a 74 or older vehicle with an equivalent size engine that has been registered for road use for at least a year in the past 5 years and have it crushed. The crushed car certificate will get you an exemption. Even buying a crate motor that comes with a CARB exemption is not a guarantee of getting the emissions exemption.

I chose like a very large number of folks to not submit the car for inspection. It's a risk that you could get stopped by the local law but for the most part they leave collector cars alone as long as you are not doing something stupid.