Coupe Re-Body

[Tynaje]

More to come soon, cheers,
Peter

[Jeff Kleiner]

Look forward to seeing it when you have something real, in the flesh and not just renderings.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Tynaje]

Look forward to seeing it when you have something real, in the flesh and not just renderings.

Cheers,
Jeff

"vaporware"

[JimStone]

That's certainly a lot of effort. I'll be interested to see the progress.


I love my coupe, flaws and all. I know it won't be completely water tight. It'll be loud. Maybe a bit uncomfortable. Hot, maybe. And certainly will be a bit of a "confused cruiser" since it's a replica racecar I'll probably never take racing. But, it will still be a 1 of 1 with all unique touches (and numerous imperfections).


Your renderings are beautiful. Please keep us updated

[JTG]

I'm with Jim on the "Perfectly Imperfect" results of my Coupe whenever it gets completed. It will make me happy, and will be a fun project with the family.

That being said Peter, I'll go grab a bucket of popcorn, sit back, and see what you come up with

[michael everson]

Peter. Let me know what you want to do with the original body.
Mike

[Tynaje]

Peter. Let me know what you want to do with the original body.
Mike

Mike, it's for sale with doors, hinges, windshield and rear glass.

[Tynaje]

Done

[Tynaje]

Happy New Year!

[JTG]

Today FFR posted their 5 spoke bronze wheels for sale. I hopped right on them. Very excited and happy to spend money with FFR. Great company, great people.
Happy New Year!

Nicely done! I love those wheels and am seriously considering them.
My only hesitation is that bronze wheels limit the color choices, and like everyone else we have no idea what color the car will be at this point.

[JimStone]

I'm doing a blackout trim/wheels thing, but those bronze wheels would certainly be tempting

[Tynaje]

Nicely done! I love those wheels and am seriously considering them.
My only hesitation is that bronze wheels limit the color choices, and like everyone else we have no idea what color the car will be at this point.

My wife stopped talking to me about the car

[Tynaje]

The 1/4 print is complete.

[J R Jones]

With mid-engine air flow as reference, my opinion is you underestimate cooling the radiators. Your NACA inspired duct opening crossection is small and in disturbed airflow. Even if you have huge sucker fans there would not be enough air provided. How do you exhaust the hot air?
Reference Porsche street/race cars. Most often they locate radiators, oil coolers and intercoolers in front for dynamic clean airflow. If you have to, lay the radiator(s) flat in front and duct air to it.

Consider the P51 aircraft and the "Meredith Effect"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meredith_effect

https://wingstracksguns.com/2021/05/...y-of-the-p-51/

Scroll down for radiator flow.
jim

[Tynaje]

Thank you Jim!

[J R Jones]

Peter,
As another example, I did racing development for Buell in 2000-01 on the new Firebolt.
The oil and air cooling on the 75hp street bikes was marginal. Race bikes were pushing 130hp @150MPH. I did wind tunnel development in the Wichita aircraft model tunnel.
The street air snorkle was set back to the side of the steering head to feed the rear cylinder and air box. The oil cooler core was just mounted in the air next to the engine.
I made a narrow tall snorkle extended forward, just ahead of the forks feeding aft with the oil cooler on the side facing out. The air had to turn right through the core. Excess air went to the rear cylinder. It cooled at racing speed better than the street bikes. Note the reverse NACA outlet in the fairing. It worked just as well with no fairing.
I put an ram-air port on the front of the fairing just below the windscreen. I ran two hoses back to the air box. At 150MPH it boosted power 7HP.
jim

Ciccotto1.JPG
firebolt race.jpg

[Tynaje]

3d printed body mold buck is "plugging" along. We modified the nose design after viewing the 1/4 scale model. Renders simply don't show the car well.
The left side is printed, 50% assembled. Pieces are hot stapled and seams plastic welded. Gluing is messy and and so far the plastic welding/staple method is as strong as the printed layers. You only pick up a hot staple one, probaly like burning your leg on a sidepipe...
The body seems to fit the chassis nicely. Windshield wraps around roll cage perfectly. Staples need to be clipped to let the body sit closer to the chassis but it looks good so far. Hoping to have a fully assembled body on the chassis mid May. The plug ready for for tooling by July.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4JSLo7kNGB4qw2H28

[Kbl7td]

Good work. Try posting your pictures here to get a bit more traction. These are the builds that should be getting attention. Instead we’ve a bunch of people that can’t figure out which way the steering wheel goes on.

[Blitzboy54]

Good work. Try posting your pictures here to get a bit more traction. These are the builds that should be getting attention. Instead we’ve a bunch of people that can’t figure out which way the steering wheel goes on.

I had no earthly idea what this thread is about. Sounds like your doing a re body project on a coupe but there is no reference to it here until I saw the photo album link. This is cool AF (as the kids say). Really appreciate if you link something here to follow along with. Where else is this being posted?

[JohnnyB]

I had no earthly idea what this thread is about. Sounds like your doing a re body project on a coupe but there is no reference to it here until I saw the photo album link. This is cool AF (as the kids say). Really appreciate if you link something here to follow along with. Where else is this being posted?

I have to agree. I had no idea it was even possible to 3D print a car body in pieces at home. Very cool concept and if you're an old timer here, this is no Hoofa project. It's definitely worth checking out the link to his pics.

[JimStone]

So, I'm still a little confused about this.

Are the 3D printed parts going to be the basis for a mold (for fiberglass or carbon fiber)? Or you think this plastic welding/stapling is going to hold up?

What type of filament are you using?

What 3D printer?

How are you attaching the 3d printed parts to the frame?

What are you going to do for glass?

Those wheel wells look super tight. Tires/wheels are going to fit?

Lots of questions.

Cool though

[Tynaje]

I'll sit down tonight and write an update. Currently diving to Hilton Head for 10 days....(wife's punishment for late night's in the shop.)

Thanks for kind words.
I don't have photos posting permission yet. For now Im afraid it's photo album updates.

The 3d printed body is a plug for a mold. Filled resin tooling for mold for higher cure temps. Body laminate carbon prepreg with nomex core in flat panels. Target weight .3lbs/sq ft.
Not selling bodies. Mold goes with car when sold for panel replacement if needed. This body is shorter front and back. Front radiator moved aft.

Update later today regarding wheel wells, filaments and attachment points. Scanning the chassis was key.

[Tynaje]

One of my biggest concerns posting this effort for me is the impact on builders and families. I applaud and truly view admire each and every build and partial build. The other concern is the bruised egos and ruffled feathers, not my intent. I told FFR I would not pontificate or bloviate about their fiberglass parts and I won't. FFR: Good people building good workable parts. I've been at this for 50+ years. My dream has been to build my own car, customer race (sail)boats always got in the way. I'm semi-retired and want to build that car body now.
I can stick build a plug or buck as some call them but that will take time and space I don't have. I was playing with AI renders and it was great fun. However AI cannot scale and I simply didn't know how to input numbers that helped a render fit the Coupe-R chassis. I stumbled onto a car young designer's site. He lives close, we met and he listened to my crazy idea and wrote a proposal with timeline. Scan the body as it sat on the car. This meant aligning the body, ride height and suspension. All previously doen but triple checked for scanning. Remove the body and completely tear apart a paint ready Coupe-R, leaving drivetrain, suspension and wheels.
I bought a Revopoint scanner before we met but never turned it on. We placed 2400 reflective dots and 200 global maekrs on the boady then scanned it. The car needed to be elevated for undercar scanning, I wanted every sqaure inch of the body scanned even though we were not using the data. Then 5400 dots and 400 global markers on the chassis.
The car was designed without using any of the AI renders. The designer said NFW was he desiging an AI car, I get it. He listend as I ranted about shapes, lack of symmetry in a cad designed car..... My only request, design and perfect one side of the car and mirror it. Desing the whole car, pick a side and slice it in half, then mirror that half. I don't care if that was redundant, computers do have a bad habit of allowing keystroke errors. I am determined to avoid an asymmatric car, period.
Printers, what a wild ride I never saw coming. I bought a Bambu X1c after Scott built pockets for his Coupe. I love his build from garage build to driving his car. It's a fantasitc printer but small build volume. Then I bought a Bambu H2D the day they were released. I began using ChatGpt to create ready to print files, from my phone, lots of rudder foils. Then I tried a 6 digit NACA section for a rear wing, BINGO!!!! That's when I got the idea to build a completely new body to tool for a mold. Turns out I was late to the party, not a new idea. I print parts for tooling mostly and toys for my grandchildren. After we scanned the chassis I bought another H2D hoping to print the car faster, math on 1 H2D and a small X1c showed it would take a very long time and I would get bored. The day after I bought the H2D Bambu released the H2S! D is dual nozzle, S is single nozzle workhorse. Incredibly each printer quickly paid for itself with 3 projects each. I was rapidly becoming adicted to buying 3d printers. As each paid for itself I bought another. The Bambu Studio can operate as many as 6 printers before you need a Farm manager. Final printer count, 3 H2S's, 2 H2D's, one H2C, X1c passed on to a friend.
First task, print a 1/4 scale model to view in the real world. Wow do I love so many of the new car features but we both had mixed feeling on the nose. More design time and many many renditions. Time to start "slicing" the full scale body.
I wanted to use ASA filament for heat, strength and better thermal expansion stability. New learning and expense curve, heated/drying AMS/HT units, things that single spools. AMS 2 Pro's hold 4 spools. Not only did I complicate the entire process with multiple printers we now add material preperation to the mix. One thing we learned from the 1/4 scale, 24/7 yielded 50% failure rate. Lots of fussing with hours printing in a 24 day gave us a better approach. 10 hours printing from 9am to 7pm yielded 0 failures. Shop heat turned on at 7 am turned off at 10 PM created a nice ramp for the printers. This winter was brutal. I printed 6 plates on 3 machines to test the waters. ASA printed really nicely. I was very excited, expecting and prepared for lots of failures. Then on the 3 set of plates 7,8 and 9 of 50 all 3 printers experienced extruder errors. The ASA high heat needs had created another obstical, heat creep, melting the ASA in the feed tubes. 12 AMS HT units, 2 per printer were now paper weights. Each printer has an AMS2 Pro, I had fallen off the 3d printing cliff.
With so many levels requiring high learning curve and a personl need to produce something it was plan b, PLA. PLA is eh but at least I can print this stuff in my sleep and easy to assemble and sand for tooling. Alec sent the windhsield first, urging me to print the full windshield left and right then test fit before printing body. He sends files, I download and they immediately open Bambu Studio loading the plates he sent. Alec now owns an H2S so we are poth sharing files that load easily and he knows what I'm up against. Every file is sliced for the H2S. You look at a puzzle on several plates with no identifying numbers or letters, just plate numbers. You quickly decide which printer prints which files. DandCa are multiple nozzles on in the same cabinet which means less plate area. It's an issue. So, you pick a plate and choose a printer. Then you need to make sure the printers are fed enough filament to print the part. The AMS can roll to the next spool if on runs out, same type and color filament. Then you slice and again confrim the printer. This becomes a task when when slicing the C, there are 7 hot ends to choose but it becomes easier as muscle memory kicks in.
My wife was less than amused at the multiple trips to the shop to "clear" the bed at all hours. My punishment was driving her to Hilton Head where I'm typing this not covered in dust loving the sun and warmth.
The printers are electric hogs at start up. Each H series printer starts at 19,000 watts for 45 seconds. That means staggering sart times. There are 5 on a single 15 amp breaker and they are fine printing PLA. I succesfully ran 2 printers with 2 AMS/HT's but starting a 3rd printer blew the breaker. Those printers were moved around multiple times to find the right environment then they got picky about power outlets. So, to print ASA they all need to be moved around in pairs, after curing the heat creep.
Regarding the cr body as printed. The windshield fit perfectly so he sen the left side files. Plan is to print left side and approve bfroe printing remainder. If you look at the photos carefullt you will notice the windhield fit nicely around the cage. But when the body is dry fit the roll cage is clearly visible and the driver's door is forward. This is with the wheel well fitting nicely. The body is low in photos, there is a 1" gap around the tire whihc is slightly tucked in the design. Saturday we both messed with the body and the reults are it does not fit. Somehow the car gor longer in the doors. We measured known points we had scanned on the chassis and our deltas. He found the error quickly. The car's wheelbase is actually 94.5" as measured and scanned. A keystroke when scaling changed the wheelbase to 98". A friend who was helping us asked if the printed part can be saved with a design change correcting the 3" error. Yes but that defeats the purpose. The part was a great learning tool but headed to the landfill. A dark side of 3d printing I learned, PLA cannot be recycled. While this may sound like a game changing head pounding failure I find it rather exciting. I have learned so much and developed skills that may keep me in the game longer as I continue to age out of building boats, fairing 40" race boat bottoms and foils. So, as I am vacationing (harder for me than retirement) I plan to learn about heat creep resolutions for the H series and ASA. One thing I learned about hot staples is they can open up if seams aren't glued or welded. Orient the little staples wrong and they become a hinge. So, each segment gets seam welded before making up larger parts. I got impatient and neglected the welding thinking it could be done when fully assembled. It's a smokey process. Ok, I'm in big trouble typing and must stop for now. Lots of typo's, was rushing to get anything written...

[JimStone]

Wow!

And I get frustrated with just my little Elegoo Neptune 4!

I do have to agree, you sound a little bit addicted to the 3D printing, but I totally get it, it's crazy fun! (when it prints right....)

The headaches you're having with the 6 printers is nuts though. But, it's a challenge and I think all of us on this board like those to varying degrees



I'm sorry to hear about the scaling mishap, but glad to see you are still determined and energized because I want to see how this thing turns out.

Keep us posted!

Enjoy your vacation!


- Jim

[Skuzzy]

Just a thought. I have a Prusa MK4S w/cabinet. I added a thermally controlled exhaust fan to maintain a cabinet temperature no higher than 30C. This solved my heat creep issue with long prints and high end materials. Some of my ASA and PC prints run over 18 hours. Ambient temperatures hang around 24-25C.

What ASA filament are you using?

[Tynaje]

Jim,
This experience began in 2019 when a customer brought his R&D Coupe in for paint. The car body was bad front to back, side to side, inside out. The body was corrected as much as possible, string straight compared to other company Coupes but not perfect. I tooled that body and buit a new body from B pillar aft. I had a mold but couldn't find a 90" wheelbase chassis. MadDog gave me a tour factory tour and nearly sold me a kit that day. In a moment of weakness I tossed the 90" wheelbase idea and bought a Coupe-R. The car was built by Mike Everson. My workload of incomplete jobs was growing, the Coupe-R was taking up much needed space and I refused to park it outside, the kiss of death.
Every custom race boat was an R&D process. This is certainly an R&D effort and I love the challenge. We kept the FFR windshield frame and glass.

Scuzzy,
Bambu ASA filament. Bambu does offer a fan but I chose go with PLA to get something printed. Worse case if the car had successfully printed was to skin the body before heavy shaping for tooling. I have a few days to get the fan/heat creep issue sorted. Maybe have the parts waiting when we get home early next week. I'm happy to go back to ASA, fingers crossed though. I don't want to use support material due to insane purge times. The H2C could probably pull it off but it's simply easier and quicker to use ASA for both, accepting heavy ASA waist. I like to custom paint supports on flat panels and any slight overhang, Bambu defaut supports don't stop the wobble.

As this 3d printed car body trend grows the slicing will get better. Someone will create "cut" seams with flanges. We can create that to an extent now but that takes time and the design time is $. Seeing the mesh lines is evident more time could be spent smoothing or (UGH, this misused term bug me to no end) "surfacing" but more time and $. I found the mesh lines help register each piece, helps build the 3d puzzle. I have managed to turn a very bad experience into a very fun experience.

[Skuzzy]

PLA is easy, compared to ASA. Virtually no warping with PLA, but you cannot use a vapor bath to remove print lines and strengthen the part. Sanding is about your only recourse.

I detest supports as well. ASA supports are a pain in the butt. It drove me to acquire the MMU (multi-media unit) for my MK4S so I could print supports with PLA. Makes it much easier and cleaner to remove them. Fortunately the MK4S can print up to a 75 degree angle before it needs supports.

The Prusa slicer can create cut seams and dowel joints. I have not needed that functionality yet, so cannot comment on well it might work. Here is an example printer profile which allows a Bambu printer to use the Prusa slicer: https://www.printables.com/model/272...-carbon-04mm-b

[flight_83]

PETG would be my suggestion. It is supper easy to print and has higher temperature tolerance than PLA. It's a nice middle ground between PLA and ASA.

[Skuzzy]

PETG would be easier to work with and it can be vapor smoothed.

[Tynaje]

PLA is easy, compared to ASA. Virtually no warping with PLA, but you cannot use a vapor bath to remove print lines and strengthen the part. Sanding is about your only recourse.

I detest supports as well. ASA supports are a pain in the butt. It drove me to acquire the MMU (multi-media unit) for my MK4S so I could print supports with PLA. Makes it much easier and cleaner to remove them. Fortunately the MK4S can print up to a 75 degree angle before it needs supports.

The Prusa slicer can create cut seams and dowel joints. I have not needed that functionality yet, so cannot comment on well it might work. Here is an example printer profile which allows a Bambu printer to use the Prusa slicer: https://www.printables.com/model/272...-carbon-04mm-b

I'll add a few photos of custon painted ASA supports, they are extremely effective and simply fall off or stay on the printer bed. It's just 100% waist, although not exactly so since it makes a part nearly perfect. I began painting entire surfaces then tried a series of vertical stipes with outstanding results. One of the ASA problems is availability. I want to stay with bambu filiament since I have so many rolls. I think laminating a veil on the finished body may not be avoidable but not the end of the world.
The plan is to spray the body with Blue Duratec vinylester fairing primer and finish in gelcoat. Since this is a tooled one off I don't really care about varying plug densities printing to the finished car through the mold. "We'll" color sand the mold and eliminate anything the filament creates. Like runs in paint, unbalanced density has memory. Thank you for the slicer links and input, it's very helpful.

flight-83,
PETG is most definately plan b if ASA isn't sorted. I had a few spools of PLA matte so I just bought more. closed my eyes and hit "send" hoping for the best. It was such a great learning experience. A very good friend just happened to walk in the shop door as we dry fit the body and had a WTF moment. "At least it's only PLA, hahaha....."
I used PETG to print 4 taillight bucket molds for the R&D Coupe. I insisted on zero draft molds and had a lot of failures. 3 from a single mold would look great but the molds could not produce a clean 4th part. Printing 4 male molds worked great since they were sacrificial. Heat gun make quick work of the PETG and the molds were easily folded and drawn out of the parts. I didn't want to mix resins and hoped the high end polyester resins in the shop would not burn melt the PETG. I waxed the parts with green Partall paste wax #2. The molds help up and did not melt, perhaps the partall added a membrane of protection? In any event I agree PETG is a very good option.

[MotionSimBuilders]

As a former Factory Five builder and owner, I know these bodies have always had their challenges. But what Pete (Tynaje) is doing with this rebodied Daytona is on a whole different level.

I’ve known Pete for about five years through the sim racing world, and I can honestly say I’ve never met anyone more talented with carbon fiber and composites. At 70 years young, his skill, experience, and vision are nothing short of incredible.

I visited his shop this past weekend, and this car is stunning. The wider rear, lower visual stance, beautifully blended spoiler, improved doors, and fix for the “J” hook issue are all amazing. It genuinely looks like it’s doing 200 mph standing still.

And the wildest part? This is only the 3D-printed plug. The final carbon fiber body will weigh under 60 pounds.

This is exactly why AI, 3D printing, and modern design tools are changing everything. The future is here, and Pete is proving it.

[Skuzzy]

I may end up following his lead. I am sick of trying to patch up something that should have never needed to be patched up. Frustrating day. Broke the nose of the hood today trying to roll out the air where I am adding fiberglass to an area which had no fiberglass. Now I am going to have to make a mold of the area to fix it.

[Tynaje]

Skuzzy, I broke a flange on the customer Daytona Coupe yesterday. Forgot to remove the very clamp I used to clamp the flange I had just bonded the night before. Tore it right off raising the hood....ugh. It was a flange repair that tore off during a repair of the nose elsewhere. One of the reasons the new car has no tilting nose.
Dave is 100% responsible for the 3d printing effort. Without his IT assistance and ability to point me in the right direction, ignoring my extreme bad language rants, I would have cut the entire kit up the day I got it home. His remarks about my shop are a bit over the top and I won't be 70 until September, heheheh.
That all said I won't deny a big dissapointment with some of what I eventually refused to even touch on the car. I began sanding the car as it sat next to the R%D Daytona Coupe, a car that had less issues that drove me crazy fixing. I stopped sanding and reached out to Mike to come pick the thing up and build it so I could sell it. To be clear, this is a Coupe-R and with my experience at the time had zero feedback or support compared to the non R cars. Hense my remarks about my car being a confused race/street car as it was being assembled. In my case a chassis and body would have been all I needed and originally ordered, base kit. 2 people no longer employed there talked me into complete kit then cried like school girls about the extra work involved changing orders.....it's called doing your job so stfu next time someone choses to spend thier money as they so wish. IF FFR were really smart they would impliment a chassis only without body option as this 3d printing thing grows. They are a "kit" company though and that may lead to less kit support, something they need to remain focused on. The problem with voicing one's opinion or gripe is the predictable instant replies by vendor/repeat builders who blindly leap to FFR defense when sometimes a builder simply needs to hear "I get it! Keep pressing on."

Printing has resumed with PETG. We assembled and test fit the hood for wheel well arch location confirmation. Confirmed only the rear arch moved. While that is being fixed in software the hood and windshield can be printed agoin, in PETG. PETG is the best alternative, super strong, similar cost and most important it can be recycled. I need to work on settings a bit but it looks like we will have a full size body stapled, welded and assembled on the chassis. Scanning the chassis lets us use known points for dimensions and panel gaps to cage.
Regarding the scanned files. I'm happy to share the body scan with anyone who wants them. I will not however post them and ask anyone recieving them to not post as well but feel free to share. Eventually they will appear somewhere but not by me. I'm fairly certain all the car bodies have the same symmetry. However the chassis' most likely differ enough not to share what we have scanned. I read somewhere that chassis don't have an easily established centerline, agreed. We have created a centerline using a grid sytem used to design the car. Careful placement of the chassis in the grid confirmed the centerline challenge.
It bothers me that this post and rebody effort is going to sour many building their dreams. Please note that this is my dream and not a 100% reaction to a less than perfect kit. That would be unreasonable. I do see 3d printers in most fabrication shops but not for plastic part replacement, for tooling. I went from hating 3d printing with 20 hours of mixed experiences 18 months ago to an enthusiast with unmatched passion and 2900 successful print hours, thanks to Dave Daylor constant nudging. Of those 2900 hours 200 were not tooling prints, they were printing grandchildren toys. Just imagine impact those 2700 hours of hand work would have on R&D/production, it would have killed this effort dead in it's tracks. The greatest gain from a well though out mold, part and fiber orientation is final paint job/fairness longevity. No more panel creep or warp from differing densities and piles of bondo. You can concievably create your own body for less than the bodywork and paint to correct the results of a worn out mold. The 3d printed bodies can be female or male tooled. Male mold requires tooling a mold. Female tooled uses the car body as a mold requiring overall smoothing, fairiness is in the design hopefully.
I'm completely winging the 3d printing but looking forward to the tooling as it will be a fun effort for the dream car build. All parts are easily modified, nose easy to redesign and build, etc. As long as it's symmetrical it can look like a Yugo (not really) and I would be happy. We love shop visitors...........