Andrew's MK4 Roadster Build Thread - Apr 11 Update

[F500guy]

Real bummer, I know engine delivery is right up there with the kit delivery, and to have to send it back...

[JMD]

Oh man, that sucks. Getting the engine is one of the high points of the build, so I'm sorry you're having to send it back. Forte is very good about making things right...it just might take a little while.

Those kinds of letdowns are a big part of the build process and I've learned not to let them get me down too much. It sucks in the moment, but 3-6 months from now it will probably be in a good place. These things just take time. If you can walk away from it and not let it ruin your holiday, that's a win. And like I said, it will be where you want it to be one day. Just not today. You got this.

[danmas]

Ugh. I am deeply sympathetic

[gbranham]

Oh man, that sucks. Getting the engine is one of the high points of the build, so I'm sorry you're having to send it back. Forte is very good about making things right...it just might take a little while.

Those kinds of letdowns are a big part of the build process and I've learned not to let them get me down too much. It sucks in the moment, but 3-6 months from now it will probably be in a good place. These things just take time. If you can walk away from it and not let it ruin your holiday, that's a win. And like I said, it will be where you want it to be one day. Just not today. You got this.

That's exactly right, John. Well said.

[GoDadGo]

Sorry!

[John4337]

Thats a gut punch for sure, but having dealt with Mike, I'm confident he will make it right. To steal a line from Jimmy Buffett "Breathe in, breathe out, move on." Keep us updated.

[OB6]

I know the feeling. The excitement of engine delivery day gets squashed. Same thing happened to my LS3, but as mentioned above, there are lots of things to do in the meantime. It still doesn't relieve the sting.

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

My thanks to all who responded with the support and encouragement, I greatly appreciate it. After going through the 5 steps of grieving and having an enjoyable 4th of July weekend, I started back at it this week. I am first concentrating on getting the wiring run including the additional wiring for the additional features I am adding (ProFlow4 EFI, Electronic Parking Brake, Electronic turn signaling, Stereo with Amp, Heated Seats, Higher Power Fuel Pump and additional lighting in cubby and trunk). To that end, I have come to the conclusion that the added equipment will require additional fuses and relays as I am not sure that the RF fuse system and the ignition switch will have sufficient current capability. I addressed some of this earlier in the thread with the power system design and have decided due to lack of space behind the dash, most of the fusing and relays will be in the trunk mounted to the Breeze cubby wall. I have also concluded that I will need a little fusing and relays added behind the dash to facilitate the control of the rear electronics to ensure I do not load the RF fuse or Ignition switch too heavily. This maybe over engineering the system, but I would hate to discover I overloaded something further in to the build and have to tear into it after the fact to fix things.

I have updated my power system diagram to reflect my latest thinking:
BatPwrSystem6.jpg

I have created a diagram for the rear and additional front relay fusing systems:
AddedRelayFuses.jpg

As always, comments and suggestions welcome.

Thanks, Andrew

[JMD]

I’m glad you enjoyed your 4th and didn’t let this ruin your holiday.

I did something similar and ran a 10 ga power wire from the battery to a fuse block mounted behind the breeze cubby divider. I didn’t diagram it out like you did, but gave myself 8 fused terminals to tap into for future use. So far I’m only using one for a 12v outlet and another for a usb power source mounted in the cubby, but in case I do decide to install a stereo or something else it will be ready. Giving yourself that flexibility is always a good idea. Carry on!

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

I am continuing to make progress after my setback.

Forte received my engine and his team has gone through it. The distributor and the front accessories had some damage but the oil pan, valve covers and block looked good. They are in the process of rebuilding it and I asked them to dyno it again to give me some peace of mind.

Since the last update, I have built the rear fuse/relay panel that I documented in my prior post:
RearFusePanel.jpg

I have mocked up it's position as well as the Electronic Parking Brake Controller on the Breeze Cubby wall:
RearFuseN_EPB_Mnt.jpg

I have concluded that I am going to need to brace the wall to keep the weight of the fuse panel from causing unnecessary flex to the wall especially after I cut U-holes in the wall to allow the trunk gas springs to mount. I plan to use 1" x 1/8" aluminum angle for the bracing to the 3/4" rail give adequate rigidity (not as shown in the picture):
BreezeReinforce.jpg

Comments and questions welcome.

Best Regards, Andrew

[JMD]

Sounds like a good plan to me! Nice work. That's more involved than I wanted to get with my build, but kudos for the effort!

[Sarcasticshrub]

That fuse/relay panel is sharp! Should do the trick.

Have you put thought into reaching it after the body is on for future maintenance?

Great work overall!

[AndrewIdaho]

That fuse/relay panel is sharp! Should do the trick.

Have you put thought into reaching it after the body is on for future maintenance?

Great work overall!

Sarcasticshrub, thanks and great question. The panel is held on with 10-32 screws into rivnuts in the z-brackets. The z-brackets are riveted into the back of the breeze cubby divider. All the wires are removable via the terminal blocks. So my expectation (hope) is that, should I need to do maintenance on the panel, I should be able to go in through the trunk, remove the screws and remove the panel. I have already tested the relays and fuses with my DMM and bench power supply as a standalone sub-assembly.

Thanks, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

It has been a busy several weeks. I was able to finish the changes I needed to make to the breeze cubby including cutouts for the trunk gas struts and fabricating the additional support bracket alluded to in my last post.

BreezeReinforceFinal.jpg

Forte's team was able to turn around the repairs to my dropped engine and I received it just over a week a ago. It took several days to get it uncrated and the crate material disposed of. The process allowed me to use my engine hoist and I was pleased how it worked. A few items were missing and Forte was able to quickly turn those around. I had thought that ProFlo 4 EFI came with a tablet but I was mistaken. I discovered that the Amazon Fire tablet supports the Edelbrock app and I was able to get a refurbed one for less than $50 (my cell phone is too small for me to effectively use it). I also received my headers from GASN (Silver Ceramic Coated) and did a trial fit.

EngineUncrated1.jpg EngineWithExhaustHeader.jpg

After going through the uncrating process, I was reticent to move the engine around just using the lift as the engine tended to swing. Consequently, I built a dolly using a spare 4x4 and casters that I had as well as some of the crate material. This allows me to push the engine around as I need to work on it and not have it swinging on the lift. It also allowed me to move the engine to a new home and give my wife back her preferred bay in the garage to use.
EngineHome3.jpg

Thanks for looking and let me know if you have questions or comments.

Andrew

[JMD]

I'm glad to hear you've got the engine back! Hopefully the incident was a blessing in disguise as perhaps it got some special attention the second time around.

I like the support brace for the cubby wall. I can't think of why it would be necessary (maybe you're attaching something heavy to the wall down the road), but either way it can't hurt to have.

Do you have some sort of valve that goes from a valve breather to the intake? I've heard it's important to have that negative pressure ventilation. I just ask because your valve breather is on the passenger side and usually that's where builders connect the pcv to the intake. Maybe yours is on the other side? Just curious.

That's one nice looking engine! For long term storage you definitely want the engine sitting and supported, not hanging from bolts. It's fine for moving them around, but you don't want that tension exerted long term.

Great progress, keep it up!

[AndrewIdaho]

I'm glad to hear you've got the engine back! Hopefully the incident was a blessing in disguise as perhaps it got some special attention the second time around.

I like the support brace for the cubby wall. I can't think of why it would be necessary (maybe you're attaching something heavy to the wall down the road), but either way it can't hurt to have.

Do you have some sort of valve that goes from a valve breather to the intake? I've heard it's important to have that negative pressure ventilation. I just ask because your valve breather is on the passenger side and usually that's where builders connect the pcv to the intake. Maybe yours is on the other side? Just curious.

That's one nice looking engine! For long term storage you definitely want the engine sitting and supported, not hanging from bolts. It's fine for moving them around, but you don't want that tension exerted long term.

Great progress, keep it up!

Thanks for the review and support John.

Yes the breeze cubby wall will have the trunk relays and fuse box mounted to it which does have noticeable mass to it (see a mock up picture earlier in the thread #90)

Thanks for the breather/PCV valve question. I thought something did not look right but I could not place my finger on what it was (my newbieness showing through). Below is a front view of the engine showing breather filters in both covers (as circled) instead of a PCV valve in the passenger side cover.

EngineFrontView.jpg

When the engine was dropped the passenger valve cover was damaged and so it was replaced. I would guess that who ever replaced it put on a driver side cover/breather.
I have sent an email to Forte to get clarification and to have them send a PCV valve and hose that will then plug into the PCV vacuum port on the proflo 4

Best Regards, Andrew

[gbranham]

For my ProFlo4, I have a breather on the driver's side valve cover, and a PCV valve in the passenger side valve cover, plumbed to a ProFlo4 throttle body vacuum port.

20250329_192938.jpg

[gbranham]

Also, you don't need a tablet for ProFlo4. Just enable Bluetooth on your phone, and download the app to your phone.

[AndrewIdaho]

Also, you don't need a tablet for ProFlo4. Just enable Bluetooth on your phone, and download the app to your phone.

Hi Greg, Thanks for this comment. I have an iPhone 12 mini and when I installed the app and ran it in demo mode I found that the screen and icons were just too small to be used comfortably so I opted for a cheap tablet with a larger screen. My old eyes and fat fingers appreciated the change .

Thanks, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

For my ProFlo4, I have a breather on the driver's side valve cover, and a PCV valve in the passenger side valve cover, plumbed to a ProFlo4 throttle body vacuum port.

20250329_192938.jpg

Greg thanks for the confirmation on the PCV valve to ProFlo4 connection. I have a related question: The Proflo4 documentation does not clearly show the Fuel Pressure Regulator Vacuum Reference Port for the 4150 Style Manifold (but does for the XT Manifold). There is one port that is not referenced in the manual that I assume is the Fuel Pressure Regulator Vacuum Reference port as highlighted in by the orange line in the attached picture. Is this the correct assumption?

ProFloRegulatorPort.jpg

Thanks, Andrew

[gbranham]

For my FPR, I used the small vacuum port on the back ofnthe throttle body. It points directly at the firewall.

[AndrewIdaho]

For my FPR, I used the small vacuum port on the back of the throttle body. It points directly at the firewall.

Thanks Greg! This is very helpful and saved me from making a mistake. For those reading, attached is a picture of the back of my throttle body showing the smaller port Greg references (on the right) that is not visible nor referenced in the documentation.

CarbRear.jpg


Best Regards Andrew

[gbranham]

Glad that helped!

[AndrewIdaho]

I have made good progress over the last three weeks.

Engine Prepped for Install: Alternator wire built and installed; Hydraulic Clutch Slave Cylinder Correctly Adjusted (my thanks to those who responded to my questions on a separate thread); oil pressure and temp sensor for gauges installed (in pro flow manifold following other posts). Sorry no pictures.

Initial Dash Fitment: Trial fitted dash and dash support bracket and did a first pass of switch placement (subject to change as I let my brain dwell on it).
DashTrial2.jpg

Switches.jpg
Key: 1 horn, 2 Key Ign Sw, 3 High/Low Beam, 4 Head Light, 5 Hazard, 6 Wipers, 7 Heater Fan, 8 Heater Temp, 9 Parking Brake Switch

Engine Install: My friend came over this last Thursday and we were able to get the engine installed. I allocated a couple of hours and we got it done in about an hour and 1/2. Not bad for two old men who had not done this before. I am glad we had the engine leveler or it could have been a big challenge. The car was supported with wheel dollies that allowed us to fine tune its position right to left as this was easier than moving the engine lift side to side.
EI_2.jpg

EI_3.jpg

The one issue I have is that the oil drain plug sits below the frame tubes by 1/2". I could raise the engine with washers (my guess that 6 on each bolt would be required) but this seems excessive. Comments or suggestions to correct the issue would be appreciated. I will need to talk with Forte on Tuesday as I requested an oil pan that had clearance.

Transmission and Drive Shaft: As part of the engine install, we installed the drive shaft at the same time as this seemed easier than doing it later. Yesterday I added transmission A frame and support bracket, and roughly set transmission height with a couple of Forte Spacers. Based on where the shifter sits it looks like I can rotate its position so I will plan to experiment with this some time in the future to see what is more comfortable.
Trans2.jpg

Lastly, I am glad I did not follow the manual to the letter and install the cockpit floors/sides first as this would have made installing and adjusting the transmission and drive shaft very difficult.

Comments and questions are welcome.

Have a great Labor Day weekend.

Andrew

[gbranham]

Looking good. Personally, I wouldn't sweat the 1/2" on the drain plug.

Greg

[edwardb]

The one issue I have is that the oil drain plug sits below the frame tubes by 1/2". I could raise the engine with washers (my guess that 6 on each bolt would be required) but this seems excessive. Comments or suggestions to correct the issue would be appreciated. I will need to talk with Forte on Tuesday as I requested an oil pan that had clearance.

Highly recommend to not mess with washers or whatever on the engine mount. That could easily have unintended consequences like messing with your header/side pipe alignment and others. Plus you want the engine mounts to set flush on the frame mounts. Do whatever is necessary to correct the problem the right way. Ideally, the pan should not extend below the frame rails.

[Nigel Allen]

Low profile or flush mount drain plug?

[JMD]

Good work! That's a big milestone for sure. Installing the driveshaft at that time was the right move. I had bolted the transmission in before installing the driveshaft and had to unbolt it, loosen motor mounts, move it all over to one side enough to fit in the slip yolk...I wish I had done it all at once, but you don't know what you don't know! Glad you got it figured out.

I would definitely get a different oil pan installed. I also specifically asked Forte for a higher clearance pan and he put on a Champion pan, pickup and dipstick for me that work great. (If you change pan, will probably need to change pickup and dipstick too, but it's pretty simple.) At about 500 miles of driving I was going down a country road that had one spot the middle was humped up and I didn't see it soon enough to avoid it. Not enough to bother a regular car, but enough to scrape the tar out of my front frame 4" crossmember. (I even have my car riding about 1/2" higher than many others.) That could have ruined my day and put my car out of commission for a while if my oil pan was lower than the frame rail by any amount. Fortunately no big deal other than I need to touch up the paint on my frame. I would encourage you to do it voluntarily now rather than involuntarily later.

Putting 3/4" of spacers under the transmission works well for most applications. Happy building!

[JMD]

Oh, and don't space your engine to mount higher than it already is. It can create problems with the driveline angle, air filter height, header & sidepipe mounting position and other things. If anything the engine benefits from being slightly lower than what we get with the FFR poly mounts, but they're fine if you space the transmission up about 3/4".

[AndrewIdaho]

Low profile or flush mount drain plug?

I am not sure, it certainly does not seem flush. The following is a picture of the pan. If I hold a straight edge across the frame, it just kisses the pan but the plug protrudes below.

OIlPan.jpg

[AndrewIdaho]

Good work! That's a big milestone for sure. Installing the driveshaft at that time was the right move. I had bolted the transmission in before installing the driveshaft and had to unbolt it, loosen motor mounts, move it all over to one side enough to fit in the slip yolk...I wish I had done it all at once, but you don't know what you don't know! Glad you got it figured out.

I would definitely get a different oil pan installed. I also specifically asked Forte for a higher clearance pan and he put on a Champion pan, pickup and dipstick for me that work great. (If you change pan, will probably need to change pickup and dipstick too, but it's pretty simple.) At about 500 miles of driving I was going down a country road that had one spot the middle was humped up and I didn't see it soon enough to avoid it. Not enough to bother a regular car, but enough to scrape the tar out of my front frame 4" crossmember. (I even have my car riding about 1/2" higher than many others.) That could have ruined my day and put my car out of commission for a while if my oil pan was lower than the frame rail by any amount. Fortunately no big deal other than I need to touch up the paint on my frame. I would encourage you to do it voluntarily now rather than involuntarily later.

Putting 3/4" of spacers under the transmission works well for most applications. Happy building!

Thanks for the insight. I specifically asked Forte for a pan that would clear. I wonder if when my engine was dropped the pan was replaced but not with the original. I will discuss this with him on Tuesday.

I have 1/2" of spacers currently installed under the transmission and another 1/4" in reserve. I would like to see where the angles sit with just two and add the third if necessary.

[Mike.Bray]

Looking good. Personally, I wouldn't sweat the 1/2" on the drain plug.

Greg

I'll respectfully disagree on this one, that's the one thing you never want to catch on something. My first street rod was a T bucket roadster with a SBC that had the drain plug hanging down like that. Hit it one day and knocked it right off. Was lucky to feel it and saw the oil pressure drop.

Look at the Aviaid original Daytona coupe style pans. Very nice and 6 1/2" tall. https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store...s_sbf-ss2.html

[gbranham]

I'll respectfully disagree on this one, that's the one thing you never want to catch on something. My first street rod was a T bucket roadster with a SBC that had the drain plug hanging down like that. Hit it one day and knocked it right off. Was lucky to feel it and saw the oil pressure drop.

Look at the Aviaid original Daytona coupe style pans. Very nice and 6 1/2" tall. https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store...s_sbf-ss2.html

I hear ya, Mike. While a "higher" drain plug may be intuitively safer, I suspect that many drain plug strikes that have happened would've happened even if they were slightly higher. I think there's a false sense of security that "if" a drain plug and pan are above the frame, they are protected. Only true if you only ever run over things that are large enough to be fully deflected by the frame. That said, I'm kind of a risk taker, and wouldn't replace my pan on a brand new build for a half inch. Call me crazy.

[cv2065]

I’d install a skid plate with spacers before I changed out the pan.

https://www.roadstertowbar.com/produ...ive-skid-plate

[AndrewIdaho]

My thanks to all of the insight and suggestions. I was able to converse with Forte yesterday to understand why I have this situation. The following is the current understanding of my situation and the options I see (with some questions). Your comments and critiques are most welcome as I work through to a decision.

Observations of my current situation:

• Measured distance of engine block to bottom of rails is 7.5”. A closer measurement of the pan revels that a small section of the pan around the plug is below the rails (<1/8”).
• The engine mounts are as high as they can go as constrained by the alignment pins on the mounts.
• Per Forte, the pan he used was a Blueprint pan as specified by FFR. It is not clear to me if something has changed over time to result in my situation.
• Idaho roads outside of major towns and cities are not necessarily very smooth with frost heaves, dips and bumps. The most exhilarating drives around me are in the mountains on two lane roads that are prone to have rockslides.
• Due to engine being dropped, it has a brand-new pan on it that has never been filled with oil so changing pan now as opposed to later will be less messy and presumed to be easier.

Options in order of increasing cost:

1. Do nothing and live with drain plug below rails: Though the lowest cost option, this would severely restrict where I could drive or run a higher risk of pan damage in the middle of nowhere than I am comfortable with.

2. Add a skid plate (+$175) with ½+” spacers: Will reduce ride height by ¾” and not clear how structurally sound lowered plate will be if hit by the road or a rock. Thoughts on this are welcome.

3. Forte suggest as an option to add 1/8” to 1/4” of washers/spacer between engine block and engine mount and use Allen head screw/bolt as oil drain plug. (Guess $40 in parts): Pan will still hang a little below rails so skid plate will be needed with spacers though closer to rails than option 2 above. This option could have unintended side effects and is not clear it is any better than option 2.

4. Go with replacement 7.5” Depth Pan and Skid Plate (+$175 + Pan cost)
a. Kevko F901 Cobra Kit Car Pan - $450 (inlc pickup, Dipstick, Support Stud)
b. Mildon 31600 Pan -$600 (Quote from Mike) (no dip stick +$50)
c. Many other choices in this pan depth.
With skid plate will this pan be damaged as the engine flexes on motor mounts as there appears to be little to no clearance? Thoughts welcome on this question.

5. Go with 7” or 6.5” Pan:
a. Champ 7”: CP302LT-RR 7” Depth - $490 (inlc pickup and dip stick)
b. Champ 6.5”: CP303LT ($490) or CP306LT($510) (inlc pickup and dip stick)
c. AVIAD 155-55362 Original Daytona Coupe Pan for 302 ($650) inlc pickup and dip stick)
Would skid plate be needed given ½” to 1” clearance above rails? Thoughts welcome on this question.

Again thanks for the help.
Andrew

[gbranham]

I know I said I wouldn't sweat a half inch, and I still believe that, at least for my neck of the woods (nice flat roads). Based on your description of your roads, I think your best bet is a shallower pan and other accompanying changes. It's the right way to do it, given your circumstance, and it's what I'd do in your shoes, regardless of cost. That said, Option 5 gets my vote, whatever that's worth.

[JMD]

I would also go for some version of Option 5. The other options aren't the most effective solutions, you may still have an issue or cause other issues with them you wish you hadn't. I've tried a lot of things to get by with less than optimal solutions (in my life, not in my build) and almost always end up regretting it. I don't like going with the most expensive option first, but in this case I think it's the best choice. Buy once, cry once...then enjoy the car with that worry in the back of your mind replaced with the satisfaction of knowing it's done right.

I believe I have the Champ CP302LT-RR or equivalent. Works great. You can always add a skid plate later if you want, but the way it sits with that pan I really don't think it's necessary.

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

Yesterday I was able to get the new oil pan installed. I had to move the bell housing back about 3/8" and with that, the install, though time consuming (5 hours of work), went smoothly and as expected based on all the helpful feedback from the forum members.

Old oil pan: Drain Plug hung below the rails
OldOilPan.jpg

New oil pan: About 1/2" clearance above the rails.
NewOilPanInstalled.jpg

Today, I was able to secure the engine bolts and using three 1/4" spacers to raise the transmission I got the following pinion angle measurements:

Transmission points down to the rear by 1.2 degrees
IRS Pinion points down to the front by 0.6 degrees
Note the frame points down back to front by 0.8 degrees (garage floor is graded to let water run to the garage doors).

I think this results in a 1.8 degree angle which I believe from my reading is acceptable. Let this newbie know if I have got this wrong and need to fix something.

Thanks for looking.
Best Regards, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

My apologies for the lack of posting in the last month. After replacing the oil pan, I have been busy completing the remainder of the engine bay in hopes of getting to first start before winter sets in.

First off I connected the hoses between the PS rack and pump. After assessing the FFR provided hoses (very long) and what I would need to do to make it work give the pump had a barbed return fitting, I concluded that using the Breeze kit would make for an easier and cleaner install. I was very happy with the results:

PwrSteeringPump1.jpg PwrSteeringPump2.jpg

Next I installed the radiator. I have used the Breeze upper and lower radiator mounts. It made if very easy to adjust and set the angle using the aluminum parts provide by FFR has others have suggested:
SettingRadiatorAngle.jpg

I then installed the lower radiator hose (again using Breeze parts as I did not like the looks of the corrugated hose) which made the process easy and seems very robust:
LowerRadiatorHose.jpg

Similarly, I installed the upper radiator filler (I went with a 16 psi metal fill cap , as I was not sure how robust the plastic cap provide by FFR was going to be) and used the gates hose as suggested by others on the forum:
UpperRadiatorHose.jpg

Next I installed the coolant over flow tank provide by FFR (my reading in the forum indicates this tank should be ok for my 302) and I like that its look matches the brake/clutch reservoirs:
OverflowTank.jpg

I connected up all the Proflo 4 EFI cables (not dressed yet) and connected up the Forte mechanical throttle linkage. The linkage proved to be a challenge and even after measuring multiple times I cut one of the rods too short . I got a replacement rod from McMaster-Carr (hex as opposed to round to ease adjustment) and got the rod cut to the needed length, tapped and installed. I believe I have it set pretty close and have enough adjustment range to tweak if needed:
ThrottleLInkage2.jpg

I connected the heater hoses. I have chosen to go with a electronically controlled servo controlled heater bypass valve. Any suggestions on what to use to clean the label off the EPDM hose would be welcome.:
HeaterPlumbing.jpg

Lastly I mounted the air filter to check for clearance of the linkage and wiring and found no interference issues (so far).
I am happy with how the engine install has gone and I think it is ready for first start once I get the EFI and fuel pump wiring done and fluids installed:
Completed.jpg

Thanks for looking and let me know if there are questions or comments.

Best Regards, Andrew

[gbranham]

You're gonna love that ProFlo4. I love mine! Holler if you have any questions before first start. You will need the serial number of your ProFlo4 ECU when you fire up the app on your phone. The serial number is on a sticker on the ECU.

Greg