I have zero experience with NiCopp tubing but I did notice on this site they advertise seamless NiCopp tube. If it's seamless it's probably not going to split and if it holds up with 45 degree inverted flares I would think it will be more than capable with AN fittings and how they have a ferrule backing the flare up.
Andrew, prior to doing my 37 degree flares in NiCopp, I read everything I could find. I came to the conclusion that 37 degree flares are used with stainless because stainless does not work well for double flares. I wasn't able to conclude the reverse... that only stainless should be used for 37 degree flares. In fact you will see below that the FAA says use 37 degree on everything other than aluminum.
F500 noted in post 18 that the ferrule in a single flare could push through the Nicopp and the joint would then fail. I wasn't able to locate additional information on that. I did find information in the forum where 37 degree flares are used in fuel lines, but the pressure is much lower. I also found forum members who have used 37 degree flares in Nicopp brake lines and have not had any issues. I understand that doesn't mean its good practice.
What I did find was FAA documentation on materials and fittings for hydraulic systems. That document is AC43 13 1b. The info below is from paragraph 9-30
"In forming flares, cut the tube ends
square, file smooth, remove all burrs and sharp
edges, and thoroughly clean. The tubing is
then flared using the correct 37-degree aviation
flare forming tool for the size of tubing and
type of fitting. A double flare is used on soft
aluminum tubing 3/8-inch outside diameter
and under, and a single flare on all other tub
ing."
So, I went with the Nicopp and 37 degree flairs. There is a very specific way to do these with the Eastwood tool (with 37 degree dies) to ensure that you do not produce a thin wide flare.
We may want to pull this out of your build thread and post a separate thread to draw the attention of experts in this area, to get their input.
On the seamless Nicopp, I'll check where I got mine and let you know. FedHill is one resource I recall that supplies high quality seamless NiCopp.
Pat
MK4 complete kit Nov 2024, Blueprint 347, TKX, Hyd clutch, IRS, 3.55, touring shocks, 17" wheels, 11.65 brakes, Build Thread
Thanks for the responses with the reference to FedHill for source of seamless NiCopp.
I went to the FedHill site and see that the proprietor has had family emergency and will be not processing orders through mid-May. All of their seamless NiCopp shows no stock (not sure if that is related to being away). A little googling finds that ASTM B466/B466M-18 specifies the requirements for seamless NiCopp so it allows me to sort through other vendors NiCopp to see if it is compliant to this spec.
Pat thanks for the detail on your investigation into using NiCopp with AN fittings including the reference to the FAA document. Your suggestion to create a distinct thread to further discuss this topic makes sense. I will pursue this path depending on my experiments in flaring and bending the Earls stainless tubing that arrived late Friday (expensive experiment as it is $50 for a 4 foot section). If I am successful, I will use the stainless within the foot box and for the rear line. If I am not successful, I will create the new thread to get further input.
My thanks for your time in helping me sort this out.
May 4 Update - Firewall Mounted Components and High Power Cabling Installed
Hello All,
While waiting for the Tilton MCs to arrive, I made good progress on getting the components that mount to the firewall installed including Heater, Fuel Regulator, Forte Throttle Linkage and Brake Fluid Reservoirs (not the firewall but close).
I also received the prebuilt 1 Ga High power cables and fuse blocks I ordered and got them provisionally located. I found that the main battery cable was about 3-4 inches too long so I need to shorten it. The hand drawn lines are cables to be built using the FFR provided 4Ga wire.
One of my Nicopp purchases was from The Stop Shop. It is seamless J1650. It is also stamped C70600 which is a standard for 90/10 Copper Nickel.
The other purchase was from the Advance Auto. It is also J1650 seamless. The label states NiCopp but also notes "Cu-Ni-Fe". This labeling may be there to cover the fact that the C70600 standard allows for trace amounts of iron.
Let us know how you make out with the stainless.
Pat
MK4 complete kit Nov 2024, Blueprint 347, TKX, Hyd clutch, IRS, 3.55, touring shocks, 17" wheels, 11.65 brakes, Build Thread
One of my Nicopp purchases was from The Stop Shop. It is seamless J1650. It is also stamped C70600 which is a standard for 90/10 Copper Nickel.
The other purchase was from the Advance Auto. It is also J1650 seamless. The label states NiCopp but also notes "Cu-Ni-Fe". This labeling may be there to cover the fact that the C70600 standard allows for trace amounts of iron.
Let us know how you make out with the stainless.
Pat
Pat,
Thanks for the Nicopp references.
My goal for tomorrow is to work with the stainless and I will respond with the results.
Andrew
As mentioned yesterday, today I made my first attempt at building a stainless steel brake line. All in all it went better than I anticipated. Critical critiques of the attached photos are welcome. My Tilton MCs are due to arrive tomorrow or Wednesday and once installed, I will finish the bends and the final flare assuming the feedback I receive on my work encourages me to do so.
As mentioned yesterday, today I made my first attempt at building a stainless steel brake line. All in all it went better than I anticipated. Critical critiques of the attached photos are welcome. My Tilton MCs are due to arrive tomorrow or Wednesday and once installed, I will finish the bends and the final flare assuming the feedback I receive on my work encourages me to do so.
It's good that you're thinking thru all the critical systems now...especially on the firewall. Between that area and the fuse panel area a lot is going on in limited space!
Andrew, I used 316L stainless for my brake lines with Earl’s SS 3AN fittings. I also used 316 (not L so really tough to work with) for my fuel lines with Earls aluminum 6AN fittings. I too got some guidance and encouragement from Mr Bray. It was challenging to bend and to seal but I’m thrilled with the finished product. Post #28 in my build thread https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-Bar-Doors-QJs
A couple things I learned-these may be touched on by Mike’s write up but I want to highlight:
1) The quality of the cut and chamfering/deburring of the end after cutting is key. It is important to cut square with a saw (blade or composite) not a tubing cutter-a tubing cutter work hardens the end of the line which makes it brittle and prone to cracking, ruining the end of an annealed line..
2) Seamless tubing may still have seams that are annealed or double annealed. If I had a flare split, it was usually on a line section where I could see where the “seam” had been.
3) the flare and ferrule backing must be held in alignment with the fitting during tightening. I had to tighten the fittings tighter than I anticipated as SS isn’t soft like Nicop. So, it’s important to use anti gall/seize lubricant on the threads. All leaks were fixed by loosening and realigning the fitting.
Good luck-I’m enjoying your build updates
BUDFIVE
Complete kit order 8/28/2023, Delivery 11/28/2023
347 Ford Dyno 10/12/2023
First Start 7/4/2024
Go Cart 8/31/2024
Licensed, Registered 6/17/2025
It's good that you're thinking thru all the critical systems now...especially on the firewall. Between that area and the fuse panel area a lot is going on in limited space!
Andrew, I used 316L stainless for my brake lines with Earl’s SS 3AN fittings. I also used 316 (not L so really tough to work with) for my fuel lines with Earls aluminum 6AN fittings. I too got some guidance and encouragement from Mr Bray. It was challenging to bend and to seal but I’m thrilled with the finished product. Post #28 in my build thread https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-Bar-Doors-QJs
A couple things I learned-these may be touched on by Mike’s write up but I want to highlight:
1) The quality of the cut and chamfering/deburring of the end after cutting is key. It is important to cut square with a saw (blade or composite) not a tubing cutter-a tubing cutter work hardens the end of the line which makes it brittle and prone to cracking, ruining the end of an annealed line..
2) Seamless tubing may still have seams that are annealed or double annealed. If I had a flare split, it was usually on a line section where I could see where the “seam” had been.
3) the flare and ferrule backing must be held in alignment with the fitting during tightening. I had to tighten the fittings tighter than I anticipated as SS isn’t soft like Nicop. So, it’s important to use anti gall/seize lubricant on the threads. All leaks were fixed by loosening and realigning the fitting.
Good luck-I’m enjoying your build updates
Thanks Budfive for your insight on working with stainless and your support. I have been following your build thread and appreciate the detail you are providing.
I did read that using a that a tubing cutter would not work so I am planning to use my Dremel with a cutoff disk. I was contemplating using a small tubing cutter to mark a score line so I know where to cut and to keep the cut straight. Any thoughts on this approach?
Thanks Budfive for your insight on working with stainless and your support. I have been following your build thread and appreciate the detail you are providing.
I did read that using a that a tubing cutter would not work so I am planning to use my Dremel with a cutoff disk. I was contemplating using a small tubing cutter to mark a score line so I know where to cut and to keep the cut straight. Any thoughts on this approach?
Best Regards, Andrew
On a 3/16” brake line it will be difficult to cut to a line around it. If you are careful, a cross cut should be pretty square. Perhaps drill a 3/16” hole perpendicular in a block of wood. Then after your cut, push the line just through the hole and you can file it square by filing against the wood. Then, chamfer and deburr.
I used one of these with a composite blade. The cut was more critical on the 3/8” fuel lines.IMG_1322.png
BUDFIVE
Complete kit order 8/28/2023, Delivery 11/28/2023
347 Ford Dyno 10/12/2023
First Start 7/4/2024
Go Cart 8/31/2024
Licensed, Registered 6/17/2025
On a 3/16” brake line it will be difficult to cut to a line around it. If you are careful, a cross cut should be pretty square. Perhaps drill a 3/16” hole perpendicular in a block of wood. Then after your cut, push the line just through the hole and you can file it square by filing against the wood. Then, chamfer and deburr.
I used one of these with a composite blade. The cut was more critical on the 3/8” fuel lines.IMG_1322.png
Budfive, thanks for the helpful suggestions. I may consider the HF cutoff tool as I am always looking for new tools.
Thanks Budfive for your insight on working with stainless and your support. I have been following your build thread and appreciate the detail you are providing.
I did read that using a that a tubing cutter would not work so I am planning to use my Dremel with a cutoff disk. I was contemplating using a small tubing cutter to mark a score line so I know where to cut and to keep the cut straight. Any thoughts on this approach?
Best Regards, Andrew
Don't overthink it. I cut the -3 tubing with a Dremel cutoff wheel, then use my disc sander to square the cut up, and then deburr the OD & ID. I use a belt sander for the OD and a countersink for the ID.
Tilton MC, FootBox Rear Brake Line Built and Fitted - Do I have any inference issues?
May 12 update: Last week went a little slow while waiting for the Tilton MCs to arrive (they did on Thursday and Saturday). While waiting I did some fitting of the aluminum panels on the passenger side and modified the Summit Aluminum separators I bought (inexpensive but not designed to mount to a surface). Once the MC arrived, I got them installed and then took the stainless brake line that I had started, as described in my previous update, and finished the bends and flaring to complete the foot box rear brake line. Pictures with some comments below:
Summit Separators modified to use 10-32 screw to mount them to a panel or frame: SeperatorsModified.jpg
The front brake line from the foot box to the driver side brake is also done in stainless. FrontBrakeLine3.jpg
The front brake line from DS to PS is in steel using a ~51" pre-cut line following Chad's advice. I struggle making nice looking bends or kinking the line so I opted to minimize the number of bends by using short precut lines. FrontBrakeLine2.jpg
The rear brake line between DS and PS is in steel using a ~41" as well for the same reasoning as the front one. RearBrakeLine1.jpgRearBrakeLine2.jpg
The rear line from the footbox to the DS brake is still to be done as I discovered I am short one stainless sleeve and tube nut (or I misplaced them). I am going to see if the local speed shop carries any if not I will need to order on line.
In addition to the brake lines mentioned in the prior post I also worked on trying to get the foot box completed by adding the fuse box and balance bar adjustment system.
For the fuse box, I decided to go with the FFR recommended location as I have a heater and defroster and I am not sure I could move the fuse box anywhere else with out discovering some interference at a later point in time. I mounted it using 10-32 button head screws and rivnuts so that it would be easier to remove and reinstall fuse box when it come time to install the windshield. I discovered that I did not like the flex in the unsupported corner so I added a 1/4-20 threaded rod, spacer and nuts to provide support. It will also double as the place where the fuse box ground wire will be grounded to the chassis:
I am also installing a Wilwood balance bar adjuster knob. There is not a lot of room in the box for the adjuster cable so I acquired the Tilton right angle gear box to make routing feasible. I discovered the Wilwood cable and the Tilton gear box don't match. I could choose to grind down the cable or drill out the hole in the gear box. I decided to go with option 3 and have my friend who is a hobby machinist build me an adapter. With some tweaking to the adapter he built, I am pleased with the results.
It has been a slow two weeks on the build as we just had a few new windows and a door installed and it took a while to get the house ready for the work.
Over the last few weeks, I topped up the rear differential (thanks to all who responded to my friction modifier question).
I got the fuel tank components and fuel filter installed. The Holley pump went right in with out a need to trim the opening as I have heard need to be done with other in tank fuel pumps and the price was very competitive (though the flow rate is way more than needed). I checked that the fuel level sensor changed resistance as it moved (~18 ohms to 163 ohms).
I acquired AN-6 PTFE fuel lines and fittings from Hot Rod Fuel hose and have done an initial trial fit. There is one question I have that I will ask in a subsequent post.
I have made progress in the last two weeks and had a slight set back.
Set back: Holley recalled my pressure regulator due to a manufacturing issue and I am awaiting a replacement so that I can then complete the fuel lines.
Progress:
1.) I was able to test out the Wilwood Electronic Emergency Brake System and it works well. It allowed me to lock down the IRS wheel bolts and the drive shaft adapter plate. The E-brake system has many, many feet of excess wire that will force me to disassemble the harness and trim the wire to a more reasonable length: Electronic Ebrake3.jpg
2.) I was able to get the brake lines bled. The process with a pressure bleeder went smoothly other than I had an instance where I dropped the bleeder catch bottle- what a mess. The pedal seems nice and firm (comparable to my daily driver) and I was pleased that the stainless brake lines I bent and flared had no leaks.
3.) I was able to get tires for my wheels and get them mounted. I opted for the Michelin Pilot Sport AS4 tires as I found them on sale and seemed the best fit for my needs for cruising.
4.) I was able to get the Breeze fan shroud and hinge system mounted to the radiator and the resulting assembly mounted to the frame. I used the Breeze lower radiator mount bar clamped to the frame as a helping hand as I installed the bolts holding the hinge to the frame: Roller2.jpg
I still have to set the angle of the radiator and install the lower radiator mount once the angle is established.
5.) Forte has completed my engine/transmission package and it is on a truck headed my way. I expect delivery next Wednesday. I preparation, I ended up purchasing a new 2 ton engine hoist from summit as it was on sale and cheaper than the one HF was offering at the time (including all HF discounts). I could not find a used one in my area for a reasonable price (they were either all beat up, stored outside or asking almost the cost of a new one). EngineHoist.jpg
Finally, a side view of the result so far: Roller1.jpg
Once the fuel lines are completed, it will be a roller 😊.
Thanks for looking and let me know if you have any questions or comments.
Mk.4 FFR supplied Right hand drive
Received 12/2012 completed 12/2019
Gen1 Coyote / TKO600 / IRS
Lots of mods to make compliant for Australian design rules
Looking good! Might want to check your reservoir height. Looks to be above 3/4" tube and higher than in post #45? Can’t really tell in the pics. Did you swap the first two out for taller reservoirs?
Looking great! That Wilwood electric park brake is a thing of beauty, isn't it? And yes, they supply you enough wire length to install it in an RV!
Don't fixate on your radiator angle too much; it simply needs to be at the appropriate angle to allow your small triangular side nose aluminum pieces to align their notches with the quickjack bolt holts in the front of the frame. Clamp those two pieces of aluminum to the 3/4" tube, aligned with the QJ mount point, and adjust the radiator accordingly. Could even be done after the body is on.
Greg
Built an early MkIII years ago, sold years ago. Back after 18 years to build a MkIV Build Thread Here Partners: Levy Racing, Summit Racing, LMR, Breeze, Forte's Parts, Speedhut, ReplicaParts
MkIV Complete Kit Ordered 4/18/23, Delivered 7/11/23, First start 3/15/25. Legal 6/13/25. Boss 427W, Edelbrock Pro Flo 4, TKX (.68 5th), IRS, Wilwood Brakes, 18" Halibrands, Toyo R888R Tires, Custom Speedhut Gauges
Looking good! Might want to check your reservoir height. Looks to be above 3/4" tube and higher than in post #45? Can’t really tell in the pics. Did you swap the first two out for taller reservoirs?
Thanks Yes, they are high. I moved them up as I bled the brakes and had not gotten around to moving them back down to level with the frame. On my list to do today.
Thanks Greg. I appreciate the insight and technique to adjust the angle. I was not planning on setting it until after the engine is installed as I plan to remove the radiator prior to installation.
Thanks Greg. I appreciate the insight and technique to adjust the angle. I was not planning on setting it until after the engine is installed as I plan to remove the radiator prior to installation.
Built an early MkIII years ago, sold years ago. Back after 18 years to build a MkIV Build Thread Here Partners: Levy Racing, Summit Racing, LMR, Breeze, Forte's Parts, Speedhut, ReplicaParts
MkIV Complete Kit Ordered 4/18/23, Delivered 7/11/23, First start 3/15/25. Legal 6/13/25. Boss 427W, Edelbrock Pro Flo 4, TKX (.68 5th), IRS, Wilwood Brakes, 18" Halibrands, Toyo R888R Tires, Custom Speedhut Gauges
The shipper arrived yesterday with my 302SBF from Mike Forte. When the driver came to the door he asked that I come look at the crate before unloading it. When I saw the crate, my heart sank. The front side cardboard was coated in oil. I had the driver remove the oil soaked cardboard and inspected the contents. I found the engine in the front corner tilting to the side. The bag that contained the oil had been crushed. There was major structural damage to the crate. From my perspective, it appears that the crate was dropped on it's front side somewhere in the shipment process. As a consequence, I refused the shipment. Some pictures follow:
I contacted Mike and sent him these pictures (along with a few more). In my discussions with him this morning, he is working with the shipper to get the engine returned as soon as possible so he can assess the damage and see what he needs to do. I appreciate that he jumped right on this and he has been great to work with.
I was planning to get the engine/drivetrain installed and wiring done prior to working on the cabin sheet metal so I had lots of room to work. I am going to rethink that plan and see how much I can progress I can make while I await a replacement engine.
I fear that my goal of first start by early fall will not be met. I am a little bummed.
I am going to step away from the build for the holiday weekend and start fresh after that. Have a great 4th.
Bummer about your engine Andrew, Forte seems like a really good guy, I'm sure between him and the shipper they'll make it right.
Hopefully the damage is superficial and can be fixed easily.
Sorry to hear about your setback. Fortunately, you have plenty of other things to do on the car while you wait.
Greg
Built an early MkIII years ago, sold years ago. Back after 18 years to build a MkIV Build Thread Here Partners: Levy Racing, Summit Racing, LMR, Breeze, Forte's Parts, Speedhut, ReplicaParts
MkIV Complete Kit Ordered 4/18/23, Delivered 7/11/23, First start 3/15/25. Legal 6/13/25. Boss 427W, Edelbrock Pro Flo 4, TKX (.68 5th), IRS, Wilwood Brakes, 18" Halibrands, Toyo R888R Tires, Custom Speedhut Gauges
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Originally Posted by PMD24
Jun 24 Update - Almost to Roller
