Atmadeep's Mk4 build - Need help!!

[Atmadeep1993]

Hi everybody,

Excited to be here. Thank you to everybody for letting me be a part of this amazing community!!
Me and my brother, we are planning an Mk4 build as a project. We are going through a rough phase and I hope this bonding project will help us make some good memories. We are both mechanically novices but eager to learn. I am a mechanical engineer and car enthusiast so I feel we can do this with your help. As a starting point would be a good idea to order the complete Mk4 kit?? We will not be making any mods, plane old build!! Thanks!

[AZPete]

Welcome to the madness. It's the perfect project for 2 brothers! I wish I had built my 2 Factory Five cars with a brother, son, or daughter, because it would have been a life-long bonding memory. As an M.E. and car nut, you'll be fine and you'll enjoy learning new skills. Check out the Factory Five Build School which would be a great experience for 2 bothers, and give you both confidence about the build and working with each other. Unless you like cleaning greasy/rusty/damaged parts, buy the complete kit.

[Ducky2009]

......Unless you like cleaning greasy/rusty/damaged parts, buy the complete kit.

GREAT ADVISE!


There are two different lines of thought. Buy a base kit and customize as you wish. Buy a complete kit and build per the manual, with a few mods (or more). I purchased the compete kit and spent approx $5500 in extras (heater, wipers, power steering, sway bar, coyote headers, etc.). When I ordered mine and received about $3700 in extras for free. FFR usually runs some sort of special something in the year. The current special is a base kit for $9,999, a $3k savings. This is for the first TEN people so it may too late.

If you log on to the FFR site and start an order, add all the extras and see where you're at $$$. Remember the kit does not include engine, trans (clutch, pressure plate) rear end, rear brakes, tires & wheels, and paint. Also, if you want to get an idea of what it will take to complete the build, you can order a manual on-line, a PDF download. Two different manuals are available, base kit and complete kit, $10 each.

[Atmadeep1993]

Thank you so much for your advice. Really appreciate the encouragement. Will go for the complete build kit, and we have definitely planned to attend the Mk4 roadster build school. Do you guys feel it is a good idea to select a motor and other drive train components before placing the order for the kit?? The company recommends the Factory Five Blueprint engines for headache less install, but my heart is set on a Roush SBF 427 or an Edelbrock 5.0L Supercharged Coyote. What do you guys think?? For transmission, I am thinking of Tremec T56 Magnum upgraded by Bowler Transmissions or Rockland Standard Gear Transzilla Magnum but would be great if the community can provide some input! For flywheel/clutch how good is Mcleod Street Extreme or RST Twin Disc?? If, by the grace of car gods, I get the Roush or the Edelbrock do you think the provided driveshaft will hold up to the abuse?? Got no clue about the rear end though, need help! Once again, Thank you so much and happy to be here!!

[edwardb]

Well for the "plain old build" you described in your initial post, you're describing some pretty exotic options there. Yes, it's best to decide about engine and trans choice when you order. You can make changes up to a couple weeks before your order goes into production. Factory Five will actually contact you at that time asking you to confirm everything. Blueprint Engines are a good choice but there are lots of choices. Roush makes some great engines and certainly have the name recognition. You pay for it though. The Edelbrock 5.0L Supercharged Coyote (at 785 HP & 660 TQ and $25K) is impressive to say the least. TKO's fit and work great in these builds. There's a reason they are probably the most common. T56's give you another gear and can handle more power. The modded ones you describe are probably really nice. But by all accounts the stock T56 is pretty slick. The party line from Factory Five is that IRS is required to fit the T56. You don't mention what rear suspension your considering. But I've seen guys put the T56 in solid axle builds. Especially with a Coyote because it's a bit shorter. I personally haven't used one, but I've seen great comments about the RST Twin Disc clutch. High power capability with a pretty light pedal.

But some basic questions. What are your plans for the car? How will you use it? Have you either ridden in or driven one of these? If you haven't, you should. It's discussed a lot, but generally anything north of 400 HP is going to give you pretty extreme performance and for street use not easy to get hooked up. The build school will tell you 300 HP is enough and can get you in lots of trouble if you're not careful. If you're planning drag slicks and do end up with some of the power choices you describe, driveshaft could be an issue. But so could lots of other parts, like the diff, axles, etc. Guy in our club has one (ERA as I recall, not a Factory Five) with an aluminum block side oiler 427 that's extreme in every respect including Hoosier drag radials. Does drag passes with it. He takes it down every year and replaces a bunch of stuff.

[Atmadeep1993]

@edwardb
Thank you so much for your reply, really appreciate your time! As far as plans for the car is concerned, me and my brother have different tastes. I want a solid street performer, may be autocross somewhere between 380 HP to 500 HP and show car paint job but my brother wants a straight line performer that has decent handling. Do you think Mickey Thompson ET Street Slicks will be up to the task, at least part throttle?? What is widest tire that I can fit without spoiling the looks? Will I get wheel spin even in 3rd or 4th gear?
I am leaning towards the Roush SBF 427 IR (560 HP) because it is NA & unique looks but at $20K plus, my brother is pushing for the Edelbrock as it just $2000 or $3000 more!!

As far as rear suspension goes, I am confused. Do you think the IRS will be a better choice for upgraded T56 or something else? I am in the process of getting in touch with Factory Five to figure out the driveshaft/axles for 700HP+ if I go with the Edelbrock motor! Will keep you posted, and it would be great if somebody suggest a good rear end setup!
Thanks a ton!

[edwardb]

You asked for my opinion, so I will give it. A SBF 427 is a great setup for these. Fits nicely, looks/sounds old school, true to the 427 history (even if not a big block...) and Roush is one of several good choices. Like others, pretty sure they're using a DART block which is excellent. I actually was planning a similar engine for my most recent build. Even ordered the Mk4 initially that way. But later decided to go with a Coyote crate and am super glad I did. But that's another discussion. The point though is that 500+ HP is a lot and frankly won't get used too often. Street driving and autocross likely won't use it all. On a drag strip you may, but it's still going to be all about traction. Also, if you run it on a sanctioned drag strip, it may require a roll cage, driver protection like restraining straps, HANS device, etc. 700+ HP? You won't need it/use it in my opinion. Good for open hood bragging at car shows. But for most purposes won't translate into any more performance. At least not for us normal mortals. Some would argue it may be unsafe. (You asked...) I can only suggest (again) to try to get rides in these, and realize what a seemingly modest 300 - 400 HP car feels like. They are rockets. Some may let you drive them. I don't, and most others won't either. But rides will tell you a lot.

To your other questions. I haven't used the tires you asked about so can't offer any specific opinion. But may not be suitable for autocross. Also watch driving in the wet and when temps are lower. I've used high performance street tires on my builds (Nitto, BFG) and yes they will spin the tires in all but the highest gears. 315's are the maximum size that can be run in the rears without modification.

The 2015+ Mustang based IRS that Factory Five changed to a couple years ago is their premium suspension and I highly recommend it. It gives the best ride and also apparently the best performance. With really sticky tires and high HP, probably the CV axles would be the weakest point of that setup. Factory Five provides a high quality axle (from Driveshaft Shop in NC) but they use OE style CV joints and I've heard (I think) they're rated at something around 500 HP. In the Mustang, when guys start adding power, one of the first things they're doing is upgrading the axles. But that is a much heavier car. The other choice would be a solid axle 3-link. You would need to take some additional precautions with that setup if you really go with the kind of HP you're describing.

Hopefully some others will chime in with their perspectives.

[Atmadeep1993]

Thank you @edwardb for your kind words. Knocked some sense into my brother, and Roush 427 is what we will be going with. Also in dialogue with Mcleod, and Bowler for the flywheel, clutch and transmission options, expecting a reply within tomorrow. I also found a 2014 build manual and we are going through it. I totally agree with you about 700HP+ being unsafe, so it is totally out of the option. I will email FF about the axles and find out more about the CV joints and their upgradability.
What does the community suggest for maximum tire height?? Would 26" - 27" inch be too tall of a tire?? As for the rear end, what gearing would be good for 70mph cruising, say at around 2000 or less RPM??
Thanks a ton!

[Mark Eaton]

Atmadeep,

Welcome aboard, you and your brother are going to have a blast ! I went to build school in July and started my build in August. I went to school thinking I would get the BluePrint 347 with EFI but had an open mind. There were guys that were planning on putting in these 500+ HP engines and I quickly decided that was a bad idea for a non race trained driver. The Roush Rep gave a presentation at the school and he said the same thing. I still remember him saying "you will shift into third gear and be doing a buck forty and you're going to kill yourself". After his talk I was set on the Roush 331 SRXE, single disc clutch, TKO600, EFI. At 350HP I figured that was a good engine for me. Ultimately, I decided on a DART SHP 347 stroker, EFI, TKO 600 from Mike Forte and i'm really happy with my decision. It dyno tested at 377 HP @ 6200RPM and 389 ft/lb torque @ 4200 which is enough to make my sphincter pucker...

In retrospect I wish I had started reading build threads earlier and considered a Coyote engine. You will see a lot of guys putting them in and seem to be very happy with them. They are very modern looking, But I do like the "old school" look of my DART.

Finally, it seems the TKO600 is kind of a work horse transmission. I have only seen one build thread with the T56 Mag transmission and that is by member Duke. You should look at his build thread and PM him if he doesn't opine here. It seems like a more complicated build.

Good luck and post as you go!

Mark

[Mark Eaton]

Oh, one other thing. Take a look at this thread...

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...r-soon-to-be-s

[KDubU]

Just echoing some things already said. Go with the complete kit, 300-500hp is plenty in these cars and most of the time you will not use it. I would go with the Roush myself, beautiful engine, plenty of power, you will not regret that choice.

[Straversi]

Welcome to the party. Whatever you choose, make sure you and your brother are in complete agreement before you order your fist part. Build schools will give you a chance to discuss all of the options. You guys should have a blast if you are working toward the same objective. My x- neighbors started on a kitchen remodel and didn't realize they hade differed ideas going into it. They are no longer neighbors or married and the first thing the new owners did was to gut that kitchen.
Have fun!
-Steve

[Atmadeep1993]

Thank you everybody for the advice! We could not find an Mk4 to drive or ride in one, but I drove a LS-swapped Mazda Miata and that thing was scary fast!! So, all in all I am set for the Roush Engine! Good looks, more than enough power and historically significant 427. Bowler transmissions replied back to me, and is suggesting a the RST twin disc clutch which I feel is overkill. What about the Mcleod Street Extreme??

One of the big questions bugging me is, how do I figure out all the necessary bearings, seals, fasteners etc required and where to find them?? I have no clue what is required to build a car, and I feel that the big parts like suspension, engine, drive train, chassis can be figured out but what about the tiny parts that I have never heard about? Will the engine manufacturer supply them or Factory Five Supply them or Bowler supplies them?? Or does each supply the small parts required to successfully install the said part?

To everybody, got the 2014 Mk4 build manual and registered for the build school in January! Will go through the manual during the holidays! Would be great if somebody suggests a rear end gear ratio, wheel options for 315 tire size (I do not like the Halibrands). Is it possible to get a LSD for better performance instead of the standard Ford 8.8" ??
Thanks a ton! The most welcoming forum I have seen, you guys are great!!

[Atmadeep1993]

Oh, one other thing. Take a look at this thread...

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...r-soon-to-be-s

Amazing! The original Cobra is an icon, and excited to own at least a replica of Caroll Shelby at his best. With humility off course!!!

[edwardb]

The picture you should be getting is that all the build choices are interrelated. You've chosen an engine. Next probably would be which rear suspension. Solid axle 3-link or IRS. Most including me wouldn't recommend the solid axle 4-link. There's an aftermarket solid axle 5-link. But I wouldn't go there with your "plain stock build." For the high end build you're describing, I would again strongly recommend the 2015+ Mustang based IRS. With that, you can choose either a T-56 or TKO. Either will work, although the TKO is by far the most common choice. Both of those transmission have two different models with different ratios. For the TKO, the only difference is the final overdrive ratio. For the T56's, they're different through all the gears as I recall. I don't know anything about Bowler. Unless you're looking at something custom or modified, any Tremec Elite Distributor sells the same thing and typically they are always the same price. Along with tire choice (e.g. diameter) you'll have the raw data needed to consider the differential ratio. I use this calculator. http://www.tremec.com/calculadora.php. No way I'd recommend anything without more information.

You have a decision to make about wheel size. Either 15, 17 or 18 inch. Personally I'd recommend either 17 or 18. There are more tire choices, but there are also more brake choices. There are brake options for the IRS and 15 inch wheels, but not from Factory Five, if that matters. Picking your own wheels you'll need to stay with the Ford 5-lug pattern, and be mindful of the backspace and offsets that would be compatible.

For the clutch, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that decision right now. There are plenty of good choices. RAM, SPEC, McLeod, etc. For the most part, you want to match the clutch rated HP to your engine HP. Going way over on clutch may sound tempting, but normally the higher HP rating the higher the pedal effort. That can get really old especially if for no reason. The RST twin clutch is apparently very light for it's HP rating, which is why some choose it. But it's expensive. You can buy something that would be compatible with your engine choice for a lot less IMO. You'll also probably need to choose a flywheel. Good news. Multiple choices there too.

For the diff, obviously the choice about rear suspension will determine which you buy. The solid axle uses a standard Ford 8.8. The current IRS is also an 8.8, but Ford calls it their "Super 8.8." There are no common parts between the two. All the newer IRS diffs are limited slip. No open diffs there. Only difference is most are clutch disk type setups. The 3.73 version is a true Torsen, and twice the price. A solid axle 8.8 purchased through Factory Five or one of the other common suppliers will typically be a clutch type limited slip.

The build school should answer a lot of your questions. Assuming you go with a complete kit, everything except driveline is included. Your concern about finding a lot of parts shouldn't be an issue if you stay with the kit supplied parts. Start modifying and changing things, which a lot of us do (!!) then it's a different story.

[Atmadeep1993]

@edwardb
Thank you so much!! We will be going with the Mustang IRS Suspension for sure, and the Roush Motor. While looking at the options to ordering the kit, I decided to go with the 16434 427 Headers option for the exhaust as it is the only option for a SBF 427 motor? Is it ok, or should I look to the aftermarket for a better one? My transmission choice, T 56 Magnum, is limiting the driveshaft that is on the option list for driveshaft. Please advice!
Working on wheel and tire choices, right now! The complete kit with all the options is around 33K which is doable for us.
For 3.73 version, should I have to buy this (M-4204-MT) along with a ring and pinion gear set or this is the diff altogether? Sorry for the stupid question, but I do not have a single clue as to how a diff actually works, theoretically I know but......

Overall our pricing stands at around 62K just for the parts! How much do you think a body shop will charge to finish the body, and show quality paint job?? How to select a body shop that can handle the fibreglass body??

Still figuring out the axles, hopefully will get to a decision pretty soon!
Thanks @edwardb, and everybody for the tremendous support and help!

[edwardb]

Your planned Roush SBF 427 is based on a 351 block. Those 16434 427 Headers are for an actual big block. No go. Assuming Roush is using standard height heads (only they could answer this question) then you need to use headers for a 351.

For the 2015+ Mustang IRS diff, you would typically buy the complete assembly. There’s no reason to buy the Torsen or any other parts separately unless you’re looking for a non-standard combination. Even then, you likely would want a pro to do the work. There are special tools and various size shims needed to set up the internals of a diff. Factory Five offers the complete diff which you can add during your kit purchase. Search M-4001-88355 for example. Or you can buy them yourself. They’re sold by Ford Performance (aka Ford Racing) through multiple channels. Forte, Summit, American Muscle, CJ Pony Parts, Don Woods, etc. They come in a number of ratios (3.15, 3.31, 3.55, 3.73) and iron or aluminum case. I would recommend staying away from the 3.15 ratio. The internals of that one are not compatible with any of the others. If you do choose the 3.73, those only come in the Torsen version. At least in stock form. You’ll also need the IRS knuckle/hubs, also available from Factory Five or separately. Search for part number M-5970-M.

Not quite understanding your concern about the axles. IMO the ones from Factory Five are fine for your build. They’re quality pieces. Similar builds as you're planning are using the provided axles. If you were still looking at that 700+ HP option and real sticky tires, plus planning hard launches, maybe you would want to look at something else. But for what you’re planning, I’d stick with what they provide.

There’s no way to give a good answer on paint costs. There are so many variables, and the prices in my observation seem to vary widely by region. Some variables include how much you plan to have done (e.g. only paint, or also all body fitting, gapping, etc.), what color (can make a big difference), what brand paint is used, stripes/no stripes, etc. It could be as low as 5-6K (unlikely if you really want show quality) or well over 10K. Or somewhere in between. FWIW, the job is somewhere in the 150 hour range plus materials. So no surprise it's not cheap. Highly recommend that you search and only use a shop that has done these before. Not just the fiberglass aspect, but know they’re way around these specific bodies and builds.

The build school and the order process should answer a lot of your questions. When you actually place your order, Factory Five will walk you though your planned configuration and tell you what works and what doesn’t. They will make sure you have the right driveshaft, brakes, etc. to match your build plan.

[Jazzman]

There’s no way to give a good answer on paint costs. There are so many variables, and the prices in my observation seem to vary widely by region. Some variables include how much you plan to have done (e.g. only paint, or also all body fitting), what color (can make a big difference), what brand paint is used, stripes/no stripes, etc. It could be as low as 5-6K (unlikely if you really want show quality) or well over 10K.

Yes, well over $10k! If you go with a candy job, the costs rises exponentially. The amount of body work done also has a big impact. If you plan to do any of the body work yourself prior to turning it over to the professionals, you should talk to them first to see if they will accept your work, or if they will undo all your hard work in order to be sure it is done "correctly". Understand that this is not a comment on the quality of your work. It is simply a reality that the painter will be responsible for the ultimate results. This means they want to be sure it all will work together and be a quality product when it is all done. Materials costs are going up, so you should be prepared for that.

You have to decide for yourself what you want the car to be when you are done. If you want a race car that goes fast but has a "workable" paint job, you could spend a bit less. If you want a show car, expect to pay a "show car" price for the paint work. I suggest you budget at least $15K for paint, and be thrilled if you are under budget! If you want a show car, budget $30K.

[edwardb]

If you plan to do any of the body work yourself prior to turning it over to the professionals, you should talk to them first to see if they will accept your work, or if they will undo all your hard work in order to be sure it is done "correctly". Understand that this is not a comment on the quality of your work. It is simply a reality that the painter will be responsible for the ultimate results. This means they want to be sure it all will work together and be a quality product when it is all done.

To confirm, I wasn't talking about putting any product on the body itself. Generally that's not a good idea. My reference was only to cleaning up all the body edges and openings (they come pretty rough), fitting the lights, windshield, rolls bar(s), bumpers, louvers, doors, trunk, hood, hood scoop, getting the body mounted on the chassis, etc. I've done this three times, and in each case the shop gave me their estimate with my work completed. Hasn't cost me extra (that I know of...). But I agree, whatever you do, talk to the shop up front.

I suggest you budget at least $15K for paint, and be thrilled if you are under budget! If you want a show car, budget $30K.

Whoa. The Jeff's just raised their prices. Seriously though, paint costs are talked about a lot. Most are in the ranges I described, which has been my personal experience as well.