Plavan's 818R Build Thread

[Scargo]

OK, so I see a supposedly new 2013 short-block was used. Some don't cool as well as others and you sure don't want to be working with an older "open" block. Same for the heads. Besides port design, valve bowl size and compression, some cool better. I just wonder what you are working with and what kind of head gaskets, etc. were used. There's also porting that can be done on the case's oil passages to help with flow restrictions.
In the number of motors I've torn down I've never seen idler pulleys or tensioners that looked worn out like that, in the video...

Gates makes a blue heavy-duty racing belt. You should go with that when you go back together. I used a Tomei Timing Belt Guide on my last build. About $45-50.

[C.Plavan]

OK, so I see a supposedly new 2013 short-block was used. Some don't cool as well as others and you sure don't want to be working with an older "open" block. Same for the heads. Besides port design, valve bowl size and compression, some cool better. I just wonder what you are working with and what kind of head gaskets, etc. were used. There's also porting that can be done on the case's oil passages to help with flow restrictions.
In the number of motors I've torn down I've never seen idler pulleys or tensioners that looked worn out like that, in the video...

Yeah- who knows. I ordered and complete gates timing belt kit (blue racing belt). The water pump seemed ok, but I need to check it again because I was more disgusted with what I found taking the belt off. I'm going to test it mid Dec at the track again.

[C.Plavan]

Chad, the groove in the timing belt is almost surely from a mis-djusted or damaged belt guide. Make sure all of them are in the right place and secured correctly. And the timing guide that goes above the crank sprocket is especially important. There are several aftermarket guides (Cosworth, Tomei and more..). I was thinking of using the Company 23 guide on my Spec B rebuild. http://www.company23.com/520

Thanks Gator. I ordered that guide today. Trust me, I'll be going over all the guides and adjusting them properly.

[Mechie3]

Guides should be adjusted with a feeler gauge and tightened with the feeler gauge in place and/or rechecked after tightening. They tend to rotate into the belt when tightened. Also, I think the service manual says to put silicone on the screws to prevent them from loosening and dropping the guide onto the belt.

My only dealing with AJW was third hand when I bought one of their exhausts off a local guy that changed his mind. FFRspec72 asked me how it fit and that's when I noticed it was 2" too low but "within spec" according to them. 2" off is a lot.

[Scargo]

The water pump seemed ok, but I need to check it again...

If you look at the water pump make sure it is Subaru PN 21111AA026. Not the one that is on the right!

[Tamra]

After finding that, I wouldn't trust the rest of the engine. I would either be opening it up and checking clearances, or starting with a different, unopened OEM block. You aren't making crazy power so a stock 2.5 would probably be fine.

It would at least eliminate the possibility that your oil problems are due to something improperly futzed with in your current block.

[bbjones121]

You can get a new oem STI shortblock for $1600 around here.

[RetroRacing]

Please take the engine out and get it checked, I wouldn't trust it either. Ive removed engines for much less and saved a fortune in time and money doing so.

[Scargo]

You can get a new oem STI shortblock for $1600 around here.

The very best I have been able to do is $1710 shipped*. Comes out of Flatirons Tuning in Colorado, so why don't you spill the beans about your deal?
I'm sorry if I come off as irritated, because probably I am. So many people want to mouth-off about what they found or what they did or can do, when it is a pretty simple thing to add a link to their source.
* With their free shipping deal and 5% off deal. It's worth it if you buy much of anything from them. They have quite good pricing as it is. I am not paid to say this. I have bought thousands of dollars of stuff from them. Jon also is a wealth of information on Subarus!

[Rasmus]

The one time I dealt with AJW, I left feeling that they're out to make a buck at the expense of the every buyer that comes to them. If they can bull**** and lie to make more and get away with it, they'll do it. It's sad too, they're a sponsor of this forum. I've had at least two PM (private) conversations about AJW's business practices. Stay away, stay far away from that business.

[Mechie3]

bbjones might have meant at a local to him dealer. My local Subaru dealer gives an ~20% discount to the local subaru club on almost all parts including short blocks.


Rasmus, unfortunately, the only thing required to become a vendor is to pay $9.99/mo for bronze status.

[Wayne Presley]

Wow Chad, do you have an inspection camera? I think popping off the oil pan and looking at the bottoms of the pistons would be prudent. You should be able to see the names cast into the backside of the crown. Really sucks about AJW doing you wrong.

[bbjones121]

The very best I have been able to do is $1710 shipped*. Comes out of Flatirons Tuning in Colorado, so why don't you spill the beans about your deal?
I'm sorry if I come off as irritated, because probably I am. So many people want to mouth-off about what they found or what they did or can do, when it is a pretty simple thing to add a link to their source.
* With their free shipping deal and 5% off deal. It's worth it if you buy much of anything from them. They have quite good pricing as it is. I am not paid to say this. I have bought thousands of dollars of stuff from them. Jon also is a wealth of information on Subarus!

Flatirons is one of the cheap places around here. I drive up there for parts all the time. It was a place down in Colorado springs. They were advertised on craigslist locally for awhile, I don't see them now. If I find it, I will let you know. My plan is to get one when my 818 needs a new one or when my legacy gt needs it.

[Sgt.Gator]

Heuberger is the largest Subaru dealer in North America and has the best shipped parts prices. They are a NASIOC and Legacy GT forum sponsor. Almost everyone on the LGT forum buys their new oem shortblocks there. My sponsor, Subaru of Bend, can't match their price, but since I don't have to pay shipping if I buy from SoB it ends up being the same.

Here's a July 2015 shopping list from an LGT Forum member:

Shortblock | OEM P/N 10103AC030 | Heurburger | $1694.97+ship
Gasket Kit | OEM P/N 10105AA720 | Heurburger | $261.59+ship
Oil Pump | 10mm, OEM P/N 15010AA300 | Heurburger | $138.71+ship
Oil Pan | OEM P/N 11109AA131 | Heurburger | $98.55+ship
Oil Cooler | OEM P/N 21311AA051 | Heurburger | $214.61+ship

Heuberger Motors
1080 Motor City Drive
Colorado Springs, CO
phone: 1-719-475-1956
email: matt@cheapsubaru.com

[Pearldrummer7]

+1 for Heuberger- bought my WRX there and some aftermarket parts. Those guys just rock.

I hope this is the source of your headaches, Chad!

[Mechie3]

I'm just glad chad sold his spyder and kept the R for now.

[Flamshackle]

I'm just glad chad sold his spyder and kept the R for now.

Same! I know you intend to sell it Chad but getting it going properly will be the best way to end your experience with it.

It's always better to go out on a high.

[C.Plavan]

Thanks for all the support and ideas. Thanks for the waterpump advice Scargo.
I'm just going to look over the motor REALLY well, install the new parts, and test the hell out of it in December hopefully. If the motor does the same thing, it's coming out. I'll take it apart to see what I have. If I find anything out of the ordinary from what I paid for, or missing, I will make it my free time fun to post video's about AJW's work.
I then will buy a new block, go through the heads etc and install it. Or just sell the car as a roller.
Hopefully, all these new parts and changes will fix it.

[AJW Performance]

Hey guys, Andrew here.
It's been over a year since I have been on the forum personally, I have been playing catch up on this thread here to see if there is anything we can do to help. I apologize in advance for not seeing/ hearing of this sooner.

Engine Wise:

SGT.Gator mentioned Joe at ICY/PPI before on Page 39, that is where this motor was born FYI, we worked with these guys on our built Subaru motors.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-Thread/page39

Here is what it is:
2013 STi Shortblock (OEM Bottom end, so OEM forged rods, OEM bearings, OEM crank etc)
Stock Bore JE Forged Pistons
ARP Headstuds
Rebuilt single AVCS heads and aftermarket cams
OEM headgaskets
Killer B Pan (which I believe Chad took off)
Killer B Pickup/Baffle
11mm oil pump

Shortblock wise this is our Stage 1 setup, ideal for people in the 300-400 WHP range. As many of you know the weak link with the EJ25 motor is piston related, hence why those get replaced with forged ones.

Timing belt wise we were just as surprised as Chad to see the damage that accorded to the belt itself in such minimal time, and we are still looking into that on our end.

I am collecting content from this thread focusing on the "oiling system". It seems to me that there has been some great technical feedback and ideas from people in regards to that. Tomorrow I hope to dig deeper into this in hopes that we may have some incite that may help as well.

Thanks,
Andrew

[bbjones121]

Welcome to the racing test and development thread. Kept up to date by one of the most helpful builders on these forums. I hope you guys can figure this out and get a working system for Chad so he can prove the 818 to everyone.

[AJW Performance]

Welcome to the racing test and development thread. Kept up to date by one of the most helpful builders on these forums. I hope you guys can figure this out and get a working system for Chad so he can prove the 818 to everyone.

Thank you sir, just working on populating all the valuable data and ideas that have been done by you guys, in hopes that we can stimulate some input and solutions as well!

Update from Today (Nov 18 2015):
I spoke with Joe from Phoenix Performance Inc, who was our builder for Chad's AJW Stage 1 Shortblock.
I sent him along some of the highlighted information and data you all have done such a good job collecting (temps, oiling system modifications, etc).
He, myself and Kyle (our tech) felt that IF there was a actual internal engine issue, the engine would have not lasted to where it is now between original start up, tuning, and 5-6 hours of track time at those very high RPM's. Again not ruling anything out here, just sharing what I have as of today

In his experience he has only witnessed oil temp issues with Subaru race engines if:
They are getting run hard without enough air getting to the coolers
They are not sized properly

He did not have any incite on the approach in regards to changing oil pump size unfortunately.

Not much, but just posting what I have discovered thus far. I am sure both of those points above have been mentioned here prior.

[C.Plavan]

I just removed the 5hr water pump...... Looks like I'll order the correct one for a racing motor- Subaru PN 21111AA026

[xxguitarist]

Glyn or Chad (or other)
How significant is the difference between the xx240 and xx026 pumps, and under what conditions?
We have the 240 design, stamped sheet metal. Our use is different from yours, as we have short bits of extreme conditions, as opposed to sustained.
We have seen no issues in coolant temps.

[Wayne Presley]

I just removed the 5hr water pump...... Looks like I'll order the correct one for a racing motor- Subaru PN 21111AA026

Is it the pic or does the waterpump body look not so new? With the brand new short block, the engine case aluminum and waterpump body should show the same oxidation level.

[bbjones121]

I just removed the 5hr water pump...... Looks like I'll order the correct one for a racing motor- Subaru PN 21111AA026

That looks terrible compared to one I just took out of my 90,000mile donor.

[Mechie3]

Is it the pic or does the waterpump body look not so new? With the brand new short block, the engine case aluminum and waterpump body should show the same oxidation level.

My thoughts pretty much. Can you post a pic of the front of the pump and the area of the block it came off for comparison?

[C.Plavan]

My thoughts pretty much. Can you post a pic of the front of the pump and the area of the block it came off for comparison?

Will do. It was close to the same. The inside looks worse. I was on my back working in a confined space so I didn't really look hard. My short block is still new and shiny.

[bbjones121]

I don't know if I would go with the cast impeller..21111AA026. It is for the 2.0 liter. Yes, it can fling more coolant, but it does not allow as much through the top of impeller. I would assume Subaru engineered this appropriately for 2.5 liter

[dirty kurty]

That pump looks like it was exposed to regular tap (hard) water instead of DI/distilled water or pre-mix, and then left to sit for an extended period of time.

[DodgyTim]

Gates seem to do two types of pump, 43548 is stamped impeller, 43513 appears to have a cast impeller, but I have not seen one firsthand
Online photos of the 43513
s-l500[2].jpg

[Scargo]

I have no empirical evidence, just anecdotal. The ...026 is touted by many as flowing more coolant and performing better because the fluid cannot escape out the sides and gaps. I think there are even some high-dollar variants of this pump "for racers". I don't usually buy into that kind of snake oil.
I've never had a cooling issue with the 026 at 400WHP for an hour on the track, though I do have a great Ron Davis radiator.

An example of what's offered.
Rallispec mentions cavitation issues.

The images of Chad's pump show rust on the tubes. That is rather, quite unexplainably unbelievable.

[C.Plavan]

Well- Here are the pictures. I have only used distilled water and Water Wetter in the 818R. I had to go pick up some rotors for our BMW Chumpcar (Racing at Laguna Seca in a couple of weeks). For $hits and giggles I took the water pump to the parts store and showed them. They see failed/used water pumps all the time for core charges..... The corrosion on the nipples is what they talked about not being right. "We live in a desert, that does not happen out here". Anyway- You be the judge.





Blue belt dust

[Pearldrummer7]

My water pump (15k on motor before me in upstate NY... All running coolant) was not that rusty, Chad. Maybe 50% as much rust.

That would be fantastic if this was your issue. The blue belt dust there looks really suspicious. Fingers crossed!

[Scargo]

Paper gasket? A Subaru water pump gasket is metal! See above edit to my post about issues with the stamped steel impeller. You might have just been having a cavitation issue in the water pump.
I have to wonder. If used parts were installed, why would an hourly mechanic want to do this? Is he taking the new parts home and selling them on Ebay?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Just a note, torque for water pump bolts is only 8.7 ft-lbs. don't ask how I know.

[Mulry]

Paper gasket? A Subaru water pump gasket is metal! See above edit to my post about issues with the stamped steel impeller. You might have just been having a cavitation issue in the water pump.
I have to wonder. If used parts were installed, why would an hourly mechanic want to do this? Is he taking the new parts home and selling them on Ebay?

Because he charges for new & then uses what he has on the shelf for increased profits.

[AJW Performance]

The pump some of you (including Chad) seem to like now (not the one on Chad's motor) used to come on the old old Subaru platforms if I recall, like 02/03 WRX's.
All the newer platforms we have dealt with have the style on Chad's. It sounds like this pump preference is based on some new findings that you guys have discovered?
Street car, 350whp performance street car, or 500whp track car all the pump styles we see or deal with here are the style on Chad's car, not the old 02/03 one. Scargo I will check out those links you posted.

The gasket was paper because those are how the Gates kits used to come.

Chad, can you see if there is any surface rust on the pulley on the pump?
If in some way shape or form that kit was used prior to you using the car it would have that, all the ones I see here in New England develop that, and I assume where you are from that would not occur.

(And just to clarify for other readers the intake manifold, Subaru specific hoses/plumbing, turbo, lines, etc were used components from a donor).

[AJW Performance]

Because he charges for new & then uses what he has on the shelf for increased profits.

Not true.
There was plenty of opportunity to "make more money" if that is what we wanted to do. For example Chad's setup as is with the new shortblock, used heads, and other donor components (turbo, intake, etc) would sell on average for about $2500.00- $3,000.00 more than what he bought it for. Not going to disclose how much, that is his privacy. If he shopped around prior, or pokes around currently he knew this or will.

So the point I am making is why would I try and save $2.00 and use a different gasket? Especially if your saying we somehow found a way to recycle used paper gaskets lol.

[Sgt.Gator]

On the stamped vs cast impeller water pumps:

Crawford announced in 2011 their new "secret" to success high flow water pump. They have a pic in this article and talk about it, about half way down: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...s-engine-tech/.

To save you the click:
Q: You came across an interesting finding on the factory water pump. Would you care to disclose this information?
A: The water pump (front, right) is a cast turbine that flows more water, whereas the OEM piece (rear, left) allows for water to bypass the blades and does not flow as much water. It is one of our trade secrets of engine building and you are first to hear about it.


If you Google Crawford High Flow Water Pump you'll find multiple threads about it on NASIOC and IWISTI.
Then the community figured out it was nothing more than the Subaru OEM old style cast impeller pump. I think Crawford has now discontinued sales of their high flow pump. It's not on their web page anymore and RallySportDirect shows it discontinued.

[AJW Performance]

On the stamped vs cast impeller water pumps:

Crawford announced in 2011 their new "secret" to success high flow water pump. They have a pic in this article and talk about it, about half way down: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...s-engine-tech/.

To save you the click:
Q: You came across an interesting finding on the factory water pump. Would you care to disclose this information?
A: The water pump (front, right) is a cast turbine that flows more water, whereas the OEM piece (rear, left) allows for water to bypass the blades and does not flow as much water. It is one of our trade secrets of engine building and you are first to hear about it.


If you Google Crawford High Flow Water Pump you'll find multiple threads about it on NASIOC and IWISTI.
Then the community figured out it was nothing more than the Subaru OEM old style cast impeller pump. I think Crawford has now discontinued sales of their high flow pump. It's not on their web page anymore and RallySportDirect shows it discontinued.

Thank you for the summary