Plavan's 818R Build Thread

[bbjones121]

Noooooo,

[bbjones121]

I was hoping to hear how you destroyed those Lotus, sad.. Sorry man.

[C.Plavan]

I was dicing it up with a 997 Cup car no problem, one that won the enduro race last event...... Then it happened again after 20 min.

Oil pump guru's. Is it at all possible that the 11cm pump flows so much oil at 6500-7200RPM that the scavenge pump cannot keep up to keep oil out of the block??? I'm at a loss.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I was dicing it up with a 997 Cup car no problem, one that won the enduro race last event...... Then it happened again after 20 min.

Oil pump guru's. Is it at all possible that the 11cm pump flows so much oil at 6500-7200RPM that the scavenge pump cannot keep up to keep oil out of the block??? I'm at a loss.

Chad,
so sorry the hoses didn't fix the issue. I was very sure that was the problem.
Bob

[FFRSpec72]

I was dicing it up with a 997 Cup car no problem, one that won the enduro race last event...... Then it happened again after 20 min.

Oil pump guru's. Is it at all possible that the 11cm pump flows so much oil at 6500-7200RPM that the scavenge pump cannot keep up to keep oil out of the block??? I'm at a loss.

Is it possible to take the engine out and give it back to AJW Performance and say, give me a new one ? or fix this one ?

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad was the tank full of foam again?

[C.Plavan]

Chad was the tank full of foam again?

No foam. I just think when I'm really pushing it. The 11cm oil pump flows too much oil for the scavenge pump to pump out at high rpms. I really don't know what the hell is going on.

[Sgt.Gator]

No foam. I just think when I'm really pushing it. The 11cm oil pump flows too much oil for the scavenge pump to pump out at high rpms. I really don't know what the hell is going on.

That seems highly unlikely since most all the other Element Tuning DS builds probably use the 11mm "upgrade" pump on big power builds. However it is possible the 11mm is causing the oil to run around in the bypass circuit too long and heat up. For other readers that has been hashed thru in detail in the 818R Discussions Forum.

The two possible things I can think to do now:
1) Try to isolate the problem to either the engine build or the DS system. Did you have high temp problems when you were still running the wet sump? I'm thinking the next step is to disconnect the DS system, re-install an oem wet sump pan and pickup and see if it gets too hot. Your oil coolers would not be hooked up unless you slap a sandwich plate on the oil filter and connect them up. But this time of year with low track temps you shouldn't need the oil coolers. You don't need to entirely rip out the DS system, just disconnect and plug the lines for this test.
or
2) Swap out the 11mm for your 10mm pump. (For some reason I thought you had already done that). If that doesn't work try 1).

[bbjones121]

Go back to stock pickup, maybe killer bee,

[C.Plavan]

No killer bee for me. The pan sits well below the frame. It would be 2 inches above the track at R height.
I think someone just needs to make me an offer on this car.

[DodgyTim]

Sorry to hear the problem isn't gone
I've always thought the drive belt was underdone and it must draw a lot of power at high revs because the scavenge pump runs so fast compared to other systems
Is it worth $20 bucks for an optical tachometer to check the belt isn't slipping ?

At idle the scavenge pump will rotate (say 1.3x) the crank rpm
Just rev the engine to 6500 rpm and check the ratio stays the same
Cheers

[D Clary]

I think if the oil scavenge or foaming, or belt slip were the problem, it would not take 20 minutes to occur. The fact that it has improved slightly with the additional coolers tells me that it is generating to much oil temp. My unenlightened suspicion is there is not enough main bearing clearance and the oil temp goes up as the engine tightens. If oil cooling were the problem I think three coolers would cure it. The problem is oil heating.

[Frank818]

Impossible I just don't believe it. I know you are telling the truth, just that I don't believe the truth!!

[Scargo]

I'm not saying I know from experience (except I have run 11mm's successfully on my 7,200 RPM wet-sump engines) but I found these tidbits.
Three pump sizes and outputs. Data is 8YO. I confirmed the accuracy of some of it.
SubaruOilPumps.jpg
Spec for AVCS engine with a 10mm pump in Quarts: (oil temp 80 C which is 176 F)
600RPM: Discharge Pressure 14PSI; Discharge rate 4.9 US quarts or more per minute
5000RPM: Discharge pressure 43PSI; Discharge rate 49.7 US quarts or more per minute (12.4 GPM)
Relief Valve working pressure: 85PSI
Rallispec's comments on sizing a pump.
This is a great thread on doing work to the case, heads and oil pump to make oil flow smoother and with less restrictions. I have done a lot of this to my engines and it's very commonly done among the race motor builders I know. I don't think the oil pump you have is too big.
Since I can't remember everything you've tried or all the pieces I want to ask if the water temp rises in concert with the oil temps?
Could you have a water cooling issue? Still some air in the system?
Every time I hear you say that the performance drops lap by lap I think of heat-soak of the intercooler. But then if oil and water are getting hotter then that can't be all there is to it. Could your fuel also be getting very hot?

[Santiago]

Very sorry to hear it Chad. If I had the money (and space) I'd take the car; I think it's important to remember you have built a great car...but the teething issues have been a bit of a nightmare.

Best,
-j

[Zach34]

So, can we assume that nothing associated with the dry sump - the scavenge pumps, plumbing, foaming, vents, etc. - is causing the issue? Also, if the 11cm pump was too big, oil would back up in the crankcase as soon as you wind up the engine at high rpm, not 20 minutes later, right?

If that's the case then maybe the next step is to pull the motor and look at the mains. The only remaining theory that seems plausible is that after about 20 minutes the crank has gotten hot enough to start seizing in the bearings, assuming it takes 20 minutes for the heat to soak the crank and overcome the cooling effect of the oil being pushed through the main bearings. But if that's the case, I can't believe it hasn't blown up yet.

If only it were a good ol' American V8, you could just drop the oil pan and pull one of the main caps.

[C.Plavan]

So, can we assume that nothing associated with the dry sump - the scavenge pumps, plumbing, foaming, vents, etc. - is causing the issue? Also, if the 11cm pump was too big, oil would back up in the crankcase as soon as you wind up the engine at high rpm, not 20 minutes later, right?

If that's the case then maybe the next step is to pull the motor and look at the mains. The only remaining theory that seems plausible is that after about 20 minutes the crank has gotten hot enough to start seizing in the bearings, assuming it takes 20 minutes for the heat to soak the crank and overcome the cooling effect of the oil being pushed through the main bearings. But if that's the case, I can't believe it hasn't blown up yet.

If only it were a good ol' American V8, you could just drop the oil pan and pull one of the main caps.

That is the only reason I don't think it's the mains. It would of blown up a long time ago. I cut the filters open, and there are no surprises. I'll cut the filter open again in a few days. The car is in another "Time Out" in the corner of the garage.
I have really been thinking of trying a new motor (non suby).

[C.Plavan]

For the data points. Coolant never got over 210, the Awic over 135. Oil got to 250 again, but performance went away before that. The new thing was pressure was acting funny. That's why I was thinking the motor is filling with oil draining the oil tank. The old way I had it plumbed, the oil could be pushed out the case vent back to the tank. Not this way with the vacuum.

But then again who knows. My racing buddies have named it the "Demon car".
Btw- I was just as fast as the Lotus 211's with 26 heat cycles on old tires.

[Pearldrummer7]

Another... Horizontally opposed motor?

Sorry to hear it, Chad. If it's any consolation, I too had heat issues on the track today. And I'm certain I'm not even pushing it as hard as you are.

[Mitch Wright]

Pearldrummer, what were your heat issues?

[metalmaker12]

For the data points. Coolant never got over 210, the Awic over 135. Oil got to 250 again, but performance went away before that. The new thing was pressure was acting funny. That's why I was thinking the motor is filling with oil draining the oil tank. The old way I had it plumbed, the oil could be pushed out the case vent back to the tank. Not this way with the vacuum.

But then again who knows. My racing buddies have named it the "Demon car".
Btw- I was just as fast as the Lotus 211's with 26 heat cycles on old tires.

Don't give up on the car, it's running fast and not sorted, get some advice from any good local racing subie team, something is not set up the way it needs to be. There is no way the oil should be getting so hot so fast. I bet you spend some time with a subie race team they will help you out.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Chad
to prove the theory about the scavenge pumps not keeping up.
You could cap off one pump and drive around the neighborhood and see if you get the same symptoms.
Bob

[Hindsight]

Chad, I completely understand your frustration.

The dry sump is complex and there are a lot of variables. I really agree with Gator's advice to try going back to wet sump as a test. You would be ruling out SO many things by doing that. If you do it and there is no heat issue, you can rule out the engine mechanicals, the tune, the oil cooling capability of your coolers, etc. If you do it and there are still heat issues, then you know it's not the dry sump and you can stop troubleshooting it.

You've spent most of your time on the dry sump and oiling system. Maybe it's time to rule it out completely?

You don't need to run a killer-b pan; the 2.5L pan is deep and will work fine (doesn't go below frame either). I would really suggest the killer-B pickup tube because the stock tubes are prone to failure but if you really don't want Killer-B stuff, it shouldn't matter for a few track tests. You are already keeping an eye on the gauges so in a wet-sump test session, just watch the oil pressure around the corners for a couple laps. Depending on the track (and the tires you are currently running), you will likely be fine. There are Subie guys running very high G's with a wet sump and slicks no problem. Again, for a test, it should be fine.

You can bolt on an oil cooler plate to the factory oil filter bracket. Can get one with or without thermostat. The Mocal ones are fantastic (~$80 with thermostat) and they have the BST to NPT fittings for them that will get you to your -10AN lines to your oil coolers.

[Pearldrummer7]

Pearldrummer, what were your heat issues?

Mitch- I'll post them in my build thread (Frank's 818R) tomorrow. Don't wanna further thread jack

[Sgt.Gator]

I have a spare OEM STI pan and Moroso or Killer B pickups I can loan you. No problem!

[longislandwrx]

Chad,

Fark.

vvruwjtganvac3ywottw.jpg

Now for some Monday morning quarterbacking.

If you pull it off the track and let it idle, does the oil temp begin to cool off, or does it stay hot indefinitely?

Did you mark the oil level in when warmed up and then after overheat condition to try and calculate how much oil is in the crank case?

How have under hatch temps been? Could the tank still just be soaking up too much heat? Can you throw a peak hold thermometer under the hatch and just do some aggressive street driving around your test track?

if it's crazy hot what would it take to get the tank up front behind the radiator?

last but not least, if you have time, can you photograph your setup, so its easier to visualize?

keep fighting the good fight.

The difference between this car an a WRX is still the sheer amount of cool air being rammed through the front of the car.

[C.Plavan]

I have a spare OEM STI pan and Moroso or Killer B pickups I can loan you. No problem!

I may take you up on that Gator to see if it's the dry sump.

I have been toying/day dreaming about the idea of a 3.5L Ford Ecoboost motor. Forget about the 2.3L Ecoboost. I talked with Ford Performance, and they will not be making a "Control Pack" for it and unfortunately, the 2.0L control pack will not work. The 3.5L control pack comes out at the end of the month (Finally). ($1950)

Daily is making a dry sump for it (just talked with him).

I need to measure (3.5L is 28.5" at its widest), but then the hard part would be a trans adapter.

Just dreaming.

[D Clary]

I have just installed the 3.5 in my fox body mustang. 29 inches wide at the turbos and you will need 26 to 30 inches of length depending on the air intake. It is very big for a six. Ordered my control pack 2200.00. I think it would hit everything. You would definitely have to re-locate the turbos. After all of that you are right where you are now. the first one. If you do it there is a place in Anahiem who is making my button flywheel and multi disc clutch. You are rally close with what you have, don't re-invent the wheel.

[D Clary]

ecoboost 001.JPGHere you go

[C.Plavan]

I have just installed the 3.5 in my fox body mustang. 29 inches wide at the turbos and you will need 26 to 30 inches of length depending on the air intake. It is very big for a six. Ordered my control pack 2200.00. I think it would hit everything. You would definitely have to re-locate the turbos. After all of that you are right where you are now. the first one. If you do it there is a place in Anahiem who is making my button flywheel and multi disc clutch. You are rally close with what you have, don't re-invent the wheel.

I got 21.5" from crank to pulley on the 3.5L. Cutting out bars for the Turbo's and rewelding is not a problem. I got a lead on a Adapter Plate for the suby trans. I have not really started measuring the 818 yet. I hear you on the motor, but- I'm not liking this EJ25 set up at all. I could sell my Iwire and ECU stuff to a 818S builder and almost pay for the 3.5L Drive Pack.

[D Clary]

The front cooling manifold and intake manifold stick out much farther than the crank pulley. You could custom make both if you needed to, I have not looked at the FWD configuration. All of this is out of an f-150. I think the torque numbers might be trouble for the subie transaxle. You might be better off with the porche. Try the wet sump from gator see if it makes any difference, I suspect it wont, but its worth a try. Wish there was a way to find out without buying a track day and towing for nothing.

[C.Plavan]

I'm headed to SEMA this year. 3.5L Ecoboost is out. Too long, too much work.

2.0L or 2.3L Ecoboost motor is knocking on my door. I talked to a couple manufacturers. The dry sump for the 2.0L with integrated oil pump will be available after PRI. Ford is looking into the 2.3L to tell me if the oil pan bolt pattern is the same (2.0L/2.3L).
Stay tuned.

[129st]

The 2.0L ecoboost crate engine with controls pack is a bargain (under $5100). 300HP with E85 should be achievable. The engine was designed for transverse mounting. Besides the oil pan, are there other issues with changing to longitudinal mounting. Looks like the ATA intercooler connection points are not optimal.

[D Clary]

I wonder if it could be transverse mounted. You could then use the ford transaxle. This will be great chad I'll watch you be the first to do this. You may be a glutton for punishment.

[C.Plavan]

I wonder if it could be transverse mounted. You could then use the ford transaxle. This will be great chad I'll watch you be the first to do this. You may be a glutton for punishment.

I thought about that, But I'll stick with the Subaru trans for now. Jim gave me a lead on a adapter plate. Glutton for punishment is still continuing to figure out the subaru motor. I'm past that point, and have been for awhile. I need something new to focus on with the hope to having a properly running race car.

As far as ATA- No different that trying to get the Subaru set up to work. Need to move things to the front of the car. As for the Ford Control Pack, unfortunately you can't add additional components to the motor then tune. So you need a stand alone ECU that Mountune can provide.

400hp on the 2.0L Ecoboost is easily possible. Not that I need that. These are the guys I have been chatting with, along with Jim for measurements.

http://www.mountuneusa.com/
http://www.esslingeracing.com/

[Frank818]

So you ditched the Porsche air cooled option?

[C.Plavan]

So you ditched the Porsche air cooled option?

For now. I didn't want to dump another $15k for a properly built 911 race motor. God knows I already spent too much.

[D Clary]

I have bought a lot of stuff from Esslinger I don't know what the know about the 2.0 as their stuff is mostly old 2.3 stuff. 400 horse is going to be expensive as the stock internals are not going to hold up. They may hold up at 300 but I would bet against 400. But like you say you don't need that much. Perhaps money better spent is to take all of your subie stuff, oiling and electronics and take it to a dyno and have someone who knows what their doing, beat the crap out of it and fix it. It may cost money but it is money you have already spent some of it obviously on the wrong stuff, or at least unnecessary stuff. You have all winter to straighten it out and believe it or not, it will be the cheapest easiest way.

[Wayne Presley]

I've had a 2.3 turbocoupe thunderbird on my dyno putting out 470 RWHP at 29 psi. Esslinger head, billet crank, huge intercooler, oliver rods JE pistons, ya know cheap stuff

[Zach34]

Another thing to consider: Some of us will eventually catch up to you. My build will be very similar - using an STI motor with a dry sump. If some things work out, I will be in San Diego next year, too. The only problem for me is I'm going at a snail's pace due to many external factors pulling my time away from the car. Odds are within the next year there will be a handful more 818Rs on the track, likely all subaru-powered, and we'll have more data to diagnose what works, if anything, on the track.

You either spend money or time, or both...