Plavan's 818R Build Thread

[Sgt.Gator]

Dang. I thought for sure the Spintric would solve the problem. Although if there is no longer any foam than it's doing it's job.
I know you are really bummed out.
Can I ask how hot is hot?

I guess your left with the 10cm pump and underdrive crank pulley for "easy" mods. If you lived close I'd come over and help!

[Flamshackle]

wow. how unbelievably frustrating... sorry to hear its still not all coming together.

congrats on the fast lap!

[C.Plavan]

As like before, The car is crazy fun for the first 2-3 laps. The performance is there, I have a huge grin, and I can throw down super fast lap times while not even really trying. Then..... I can feel the performance start going away as everything is getting hotter. I can feel the same drag on the motor.

I may try Bob's idea of those spiral metal spring inserts into the dry sump pan lines (In case lines are collapsing with the heat), along with the under drive pulley and 10cm oil pump.

I tried both oil temp sender locations. The original sender location I had was only ~5 degree's hotter than the dry sump tank sender location. Oil got to over 260 at one point. But what you need to realize, I can still feel the performance suffer before that. I was babying it once it hit 250, but again the performance sucked. It's like everything gets hot and the motor turns into a 39hp VW Beetle motor.

The first session of the day is always the longest session I can run. Everything is cool from the start. After that, I can get about 3 laps in subsequent sessions before the same crap happens.

I know its all heat related, but the AWIC got to 144 at some points. It was 97 degree's outside, intake temp was right around 100. So I need to sell the AWIC to a street car 818 person which it would work perfectly for.

Radiator temps got up to 220-222 when things were really hot, 208-210 when things were somewhat normal.

I'm about ready to just pull the motor and start over.

[Pearldrummer7]

As like before, The car is crazy fun for the first 2-3 laps. The performance is there, I have a huge grin, and I can throw down super fast lap times while not even really trying. Then..... I can feel the performance start going away as everything is getting hotter. I can feel the same drag on the motor.

I may try Bob's idea of those spiral metal spring inserts into the dry sump pan lines (In case lines are collapsing with the heat), along with the under drive pulley and 10cm oil pump.

I tried both oil temp sender locations. The original sender location I had was only ~5 degree's hotter than the dry sump tank sender location. Oil got to over 260 at one point. But what you need to realize, I can still feel the performance suffer before that. I was babying it once it hit 250, but again the performance sucked. It's like everything gets hot and the motor turns into a 39hp VW Beetle motor.

The first session of the day is always the longest session I can run. Everything is cool from the start. After that, I can get about 3 laps in subsequent sessions before the same crap happens.

I know its all heat related, but the AWIC got to 144 at some points. It was 97 degree's outside, intake temp was right around 100. So I need to sell the AWIC to a street car 818 person which it would work perfectly for.

Radiator temps got up to 220-222 when things were really hot, 208-210 when things were somewhat normal.

I'm about ready to just pull the motor and start over.

What would you replace the AWIC with? A bigger one?

[AZPete]

Chad, you said, "I just think my motor is screwed somehow."
It's from AJW, right? What does Andrew say?

[C.Plavan]

What would you replace the AWIC with? A bigger one?

Knowing what I know now for endurance racing and turbos, A2A is king. You do not see AWIC in endurance race cars. I'm not saying it won't work in other people's cars, it could be that my car's motor is a mess . I'm running 280hp to the wheels and it is getting hot. (along with everything else to be fair.)

I may just need a better intercooler location/ducting that what FFR provides stock. Plus, the intercooler needs to be much bigger for racing (you are in boost almost constantly). I guess Mechie has worked on a side intercooler design. Utilizing Kirk818's side scoops I have and aluminum block off's might be the ticket. Then again, I need a proper running car first.

Yes, motor is from AJW. I have given up on them.

[Pearldrummer7]

Knowing what I know now for endurance racing and turbos, A2A is king. You do not see AWIC in endurance race cars. I'm not saying it won't work in other people's cars, it could be that my car's motor is a mess . I'm running 280hp to the wheels and it is getting hot. (along with everything else to be fair.)

I may just need a better intercooler location/ducting that what FFR provides stock. Plus, the intercooler needs to be much bigger for racing (you are in boost almost constantly). I guess Mechie has worked on a side intercooler design. Utilizing Kirk818's side scoops I have and aluminum block off's might be the ticket. Then again, I need a proper running car first.

Yes, motor is from AJW. I have given up on them.

Huh, funny you say that. If you asked around the forums, I believe the general consensus is that an AWIC is a "must have" for our cars.

If you had a quick spooling turbo, couldn't you try a front mount? I know that a huge run, but some muscle cars ran rear turbos on front engine cars. Maybe something like that is the ticket. *flamesuit on*

[Pearldrummer7]

Also, just for fun. What do you think of this?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post166294

Especially with a larger side duct (like yours) and maybe a mounted fan to move some air while idling?

[C.Plavan]

Also, just for fun. What do you think of this?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post166294

Especially with a larger side duct (like yours) and maybe a mounted fan to move some air while idling?

Thats what Dan was taking about a few posts back.

As for AWIC being a must have. I think they mean the factory a2a ducting/location just will not work well.

[C.Plavan]

If you guys want to see what it's like to drive a 818R for a couple good laps....... watch....lol

Personal best of 1:53 BW config CW#13. I surprised myself as I was not really trying, and I'm on Hoosier R7's with 25+ heatcycles....lol. I was too busy looking a gauges. This car is just teasing me!

[Mitch Wright]

Chad, it looks like the car handles and transitions pretty well for the limited amount of time you have had to work on the chassis set-up. Watching your steering inputs the car looks to go where you point it.

[Evan78]

This is probably a long shot, but perhaps you should try a conventional tune, if available. I forget what turbo you're running and the specifics of reducing power to stay within class limits, but however trivial that might seem, it is not the common approach to tuning. Was it ever tuned for max power while staying within the turbo's efficiency range?

[RM1SepEx]

Also, just for fun. What do you think of this?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post166294

Especially with a larger side duct (like yours) and maybe a mounted fan to move some air while idling?

If you rotate the turbo 135 and do a TGV delete the AAIC tubing gets very simple

P1120655.JPG P1120652.JPG P1120651.JPG P1120638.JPG

P1120637.JPG P1120636.JPG P1120635.JPG
.
My fan runs if the key is on and a dash switch is on. I'll add ducting for the AAIC as well as ducting air over the opening on top of the IC to the cone intake so that the side scoop feeds both. Future plans are for an oil cooler for the other side.

[Canadian818]

I think a 911 (996+) turbo style ducting will work. Fully sealed from the scoop to the vent at the rear. That's my plan, with some water injection if needed.

[JeromeS13]

Radiator temps got up to 220-222 when things were really hot, 208-210 when things were somewhat normal.

This still seems high to me. I never liked to see my coolant get above 210, period. At this point, depending on what your tuner adjusted, the ECU pulls 2 degrees of timing at 212 F and nearly 4 degrees at 230.

Even beating on mine for 15 minutes in 100 degree ambient temps, my coolant never got above 198 degrees.

[C.Plavan]

Just noticed my heads are b25 versions. I thought 06 WRX's are supposed to be d25's?

Would that mess up my tune, or ecu things? I know I'm reaching but im just thinking of anything causing my crazy issues.

[C.Plavan]

If you rotate the turbo 135 and do a TGV delete the AAIC tubing gets very simple

P1120655.JPG P1120652.JPG P1120651.JPG P1120638.JPG

P1120637.JPG P1120636.JPG P1120635.JPG
.
My fan runs if the key is on and a dash switch is on. I'll add ducting for the AAIC as well as ducting air over the opening on top of the IC to the cone intake so that the side scoop feeds both. Future plans are for an oil cooler for the other side.

I really like that Dan. If I ever get to that point, I will be doing something similar. I think I would go off the driver side vent since I'm racing. I need to keep those pipes away from the turbo heat. I just need to get the car running right first.

[Pearldrummer7]

Not to doubt your tuner, but have you ever considered getting a second tune from another tuner?

[C.Plavan]

Not to doubt your tuner, but have you ever considered getting a second tune from another tuner?

He tuned Ken Block's 4wd Mustang. So I would have a hard time second guessing him. I'll see if he can send me a basic 400hp tune for a Dom 1.5 turbo. At this point, I don't care if it blows up.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I can feel the same drag on the motor.

I may try Bob's idea of those spiral metal spring inserts into the dry sump pan lines (In case lines are collapsing with the heat), along with the under drive pulley and 10cm oil pump.

I know its all heat related, .

Chad,
I feel you are on the right track now.

I think the root cause is you oil level is getting into your crank. Caused by collapsed scavenge lines.

This would cause your power loss feeling.

After that, the crank s would super heat and aerate the oil.

Bob

[DodgyTim]

Chad,
I feel you are on the right track now.

I think the root cause is you oil level is getting into your crank.

This would cause your power loss feeling.
This would super heat and aerate the oil.

Bob

If the oil is getting to the crank I'd suggest the culprit is the dry sump belt drive
the scavenge pump is running really fast compared to other dry sump systems, which will draw a lot more power
the belt drive is a relatively small and narrow serpentine belt, nearly every other dry sump belt seems to be toothed

Cheers

[Frank818]

I think I mentioned that a while back, but has this car and engine been driven before with a normal oil pan and no dry sump?

[bbjones121]

Any thoughts on skipping the dry sump? I mean, going back to stock with killer b pickup and larger pan?

[C.Plavan]

Any thoughts on skipping the dry sump? I mean, going back to stock with killer b pickup and larger pan?

Not at this point. Killer B Pan sticks out well below the frame. Running one at the lowered 818R height while racing can be disasterous. Plus, I sold that whole setup. I'm about ready to just pull the motor and see what AJW gave me inside.

[Tamra]

Not at this point. Killer B Pan sticks out well below the frame. Running one at the lowered 818R height while racing can be disasterous. Plus, I sold that whole setup. I'm about ready to just pull the motor and see what AJW gave me inside.

I think that's a good idea. Or even just pick up a used OEM short block off Craigslist and throw it in with your current tune, and see how it goes.

[D Clary]

I think in your use a front mounted intercooler would work, the only thing you would get is turbo lag because of the long run of pipe. you are always at boost so the the system is always pressurized.

[bbjones121]

Not at this point. Killer B Pan sticks out well below the frame. Running one at the lowered 818R height while racing can be disasterous. Plus, I sold that whole setup. I'm about ready to just pull the motor and see what AJW gave me inside.

That makes sense. It is exciting how fast you ran with issues! I can't wait to hear your times when you are pedal to the medal on good tires, good engine, and clear mind about the engine heat!

[Mulry]

Chad, which radiator are you using? Here's why I'm looking in that direction.

The stock 4AGE motor in the first-gen MR2 was reportedly "bombproof," which was one reason we started with that car for our Lemons-racing endeavors. It turns out that it's anything but bombproof when you flog the crap out of it for 14+ hours in a weekend, and lots of us suffered BHG failures as a result of running the coolant too hot. There were lots of proposed solutions bandied about, but the one that worked for me, and which was a lot cheaper than electric water pumps & other stuff, was to find a way to cram a big, cheap Ford/Mopar universal radiator from Sppedway Motors in the front of the car. It was a ton bigger than stock & required some chassis modification, but we didn't BHG again for years after that change. I wonder if something as simple as a bigger capacity radiator would solve the problem.

[C.Plavan]

Chad,
I feel you are on the right track now.

I think the root cause is you oil level is getting into your crank. Caused by collapsed scavenge lines.

This would cause your power loss feeling.

After that, the crank s would super heat and aerate the oil.

Bob

Alright Bob, I was traveling for work yesterday and was "noodling" my oil temp problems. I have tried everything else, with marginal increases in run time. I'm hoping you are right about the suction lines collapsing, it's really all that's left besides pulling the motor. I gave it a good 4 hour cause/effect and came up with the same conclusion you have.

1. Ever since I have started racing this car, I have always felt a power loss after a few laps.

2. The power loss comes after the car gets warmed up.

3. The only race I finished was in Feb when temps were in the high 40 degrees ambient, yet I still remember a power loss

4. Whenever I felt the drag on the motor, I would slow down. I always thought it was my bearings going. I cut all my oil filters open and have never found any bearing material. For the amount of times I have driven this car, if the culprit was the bearings, if would of blown up already with what I'm doing.

5. The oil aeration is totally gone with the Spintric now, I can look in the oil tank now right after running and their is not any foam as there was before. Pretty amazing device, but it did not stop the heat or power loss.

6. The bottom of the motor on a 818R is sealed off with an aluminum plate. No real airflow like on a wrx street car. This is where I think the issue lies. The dry sump suction lines are down in the header heat. I think after a few laps in full race mode, the heat starts making the -12 Braided lines pliable. This is where they start collapsing and the block starts filling with oil like you stated. That is exactly what I am feeling for power loss, or drag on the motor. In fact, I tested the theory on Friday. When it gets bad on the track, I pushed the clutch in, the motor stalled. Oil is in the motor.

7. So the block fills with oil, where does it go? It goes through my vent lines back to the oil tank all super heated bypassing the oil coolers. How do I know this? When I plugged the drysump vent line plugs like Gator for vacuum to see if that would help, I cut a zip tie holding on the 3/4" vent hose in case there was positive pressure. I went out for two laps, oil pressure was dropping, I nursed it back in to check and there was oil seeping/dripping out of the 3/4" drip line. I had a nice puddle of oil under the car because it was leaking on my rear diffuser then dropping to the ground.

8. My first few laps of any test were always the fastest. This is when everything was nice and cold from not running before. This is were I could feel the cars real potential, then it would start deteriorating with each passing lap.

So you may have been right all along. If this cures it, I'm sending you a Keg of beer. I ordered those inner hose supports and will make new suction lines with them installed. I'm also going to reroute one of those lines even farther from the header.

I'll pray to Baby Jesus and hopefully I will be done messing with this car. Then I can focus on the setup.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

7. So the block fills with oil, where does it go?

If this cures it, I'm sending you a Keg of beer. .

Hi Chad,
As soon as the engine stalls, the vacuum goes away and the hose open back up.
when you restarted it probably pumped it out quickly.

EDIT: Do your feed line also. It has vacuum from the OEM pump. If it collapses, you only have seconds.

No keg necessary, I'm running your 350-600 spring set up and loving it.
Bob

[matteo92065]

If this were The Facebook, I'm tapping the "Like" button for the post above.

[Pearldrummer7]

Not to thread jack...what is this 350-600 spring setup? I thought we had 350/500 from the factory?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Not to thread jack...what is this 350-600 spring setup? I thought we had 350/500 from the factory?

Chad and I have bought different springs.
My 818S came with 275 rear and 350 front springs.
Chad is running 600 rear and 375 fronts.
I am running 600 rear and 350 fronts
Bob

[Mulry]

EDIT: Do your feed line also. It has vacuum from the OEM pump. If it collapses, you only have seconds.

Bob, do you have a link/source for those spring inserts? I'd like to put them on my to-do/to-buy list as I'm assembling our dry sump setup. Sorry for the minor threadjack, Chad.

[Pearldrummer7]

Chad and I have bought different springs.
My 818S came with 275 rear and 350 front springs.
Chad is running 600 rear and 375 fronts.
I am running 600 rear and 350 fronts
Bob

Thanks, Bob. I intend to dabble with stuff like that eventually. Notes taken!


Chad, I really hope this solves the issues you've been having. It would be great to see you drive and tweak this thing without having to worry about temps!

[C.Plavan]

Bob, do you have a link/source for those spring inserts? I'd like to put them on my to-do/to-buy list as I'm assembling our dry sump setup. Sorry for the minor threadjack, Chad.

Summit racing has them. Search inner hose support.

[Mulry]

thx Chad.

[Hindsight]

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you on this one

[Sgt.Gator]

Pegasus has the Aeroquip -12AN in stock now.

Summit has the Earl's in stock, it's cheap, but clearly not the right stuff compared to Aeroquip, Russell, or Fragola. Summit won't ship the Aeroquip or Fragola until Sept. They can ship the Russell by Friday.

I was wondering how the heck you get these inside the hose. Then I saw this in the Fragola description "To install them, use a solid rod smaller than the inside diameter of the hose and then slice the end of the rod and wind the inner support spring into the hose."

I hope it installs easily and is the solution you need!

[C.Plavan]

I bought the Earl's to check it out since it was cheap. If you go to the Earls website, it says it for vacuum support also. It may do the trick. I'll know when I get it. Otherwise, I'll get the other stuff.

I'm in no hurry- I have a race in the Porsche in less than two weeks. Oktoberfest!