Plavan's 818R Build Thread

[bbjones121]

We don't overfill reciprocating compressors with oil at the refinery because it will foam up. Did you overfill?

[longislandwrx]

http://www.enginelabs.com/?p=140959

this was helpful.. such dollars!

[C.Plavan]

We don't overfill reciprocating compressors with oil at the refinery because it will foam up. Did you overfill?

I'm not a rookie :P The rule of thumb is 2/3 full (Warm oil, not cold), or just below the strainer looking down the fill top.

[RetroRacing]

I spin my 12a EP car to 10k pretty much every shift. We used to have a foaming issue that would first show up as pressure loss, then heat in the oil (rotaries us the oil for cooling the engine pretty much equal to water). We did two things, so we don't know exactly which one worked (I hate myself for that). One was incorporating a better step baffle in the oil pan, two steps rather than just the one plate. The other was to switch oils from Redline to Lucas then to amsoil. The lucas seemed to hold pressure better than the Amsoil, but at a price. It is said to have extreme anti foaming agents and our results may indicate that it does.
Can I ask the relative RPM of your dry sump? I ask only if it's over driven by the pulley ratio, because again, our drysump on the IMSA car at 8500 rpm doesn't share the same aeration issue so I find it odd.

Please ignore if these things are stuff you have already dealt with, just spit balling.....

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Chad,
I know you are getting lot of advice, so I will make this short.
Is it possible the scavenge pump is not keeping up, allowing oil to build up in the block?
The crankshaft turning in a pool of oil would fell like a big power loss.
This would also take all that lost power and super heat the oil in the block. Like a water-brake dyno.
Bob

Hi Chad
When I posted this back on 7-11. My thought the scavenge pump was the problem.
The oil would rise in the block until it would get emulsified with air by the crankshaft agitation.
I think you are treating the effect of the problem and not the root cause.

Why are you getting Oil Aeration?
Is it possible to add another stage to the scavenge pump.
Bob

[C.Plavan]

Hi Chad
When I posted this back on 7-11. My thought the scavenge pump was the problem.
The oil would rise in the block until it would get emulsified with air by the crankshaft agitation.
I think you are treating the effect of the problem and not the root cause.

Why are you getting Oil Aeration?
Is it possible to add another stage to the scavenge pump.
Bob

It's possible, but who knows. I think they would of figured that out before selling it in kit form. There is another kit that uses the same pump flow with 2 scavenge also. I'm sticking with my plan for now.

[bbjones121]

I'm not a rookie :P The rule of thumb is 2/3 full (Warm oil, not cold), or just below the strainer looking down the fill top.

I didn't mean to offend. But you probably are running more oil lines, coolers, etc. every which way than you ever have before? I would guess it would be underfilling issue with the massive oil "system" you have, but foaming is an outcome of overfilling in compressors.

[C.Plavan]

I didn't mean to offend. But you probably are running more oil lines, coolers, etc. every which way than you ever have before? I would guess it would be underfilling issue with the massive oil "system" you have, but foaming is an outcome of overfilling in compressors.

Not at all- just playing around.

[bbjones121]

Can't wait to see the new vents on your car. I plan to get as much air in my 818 as possible.

[C.Plavan]

Can't wait to see the new vents on your car. I plan to get as much air in my 818 as possible.

Wait till you see what Mechie is working on vent wise for the rear.....

[metros]

Looking forward to showering him with more of my dollars for cool parts. Ffr should make him a job offer.

[bbjones121]

Wait till you see what Mechie is working on vent wise for the rear.....

What!?!

[Mechie3]

Lol.

[Hindsight]

Me too.....

[Pearldrummer7]

Me too.....

Basically^

Except it's more like coins for me :lol:

[C.Plavan]

Thats been me on this whole 818R experience......

[Mechie3]

If I did that it'd probably last about 1/2 as long as the GIF. Haha!

[bstuke]

Wait till you see what Mechie is working on vent wise for the rear.....

Nice..

[NorCal Ray]

Hey Chad, I've been reading all the comments about your oil heating problems, solutions , BS, and such. My son and I run a 4.6l DOHC Aluminator engine with a Kenne Bell Mammoth supercharger in a Cobra with a dry sump. Our oil tank is air cooled. We have a 3" duct coming from the front valance to the tank and 3' duct exiting. We have not had any oil heating problems. Just a sugestion. Please don't sell your 818R!! NorCal Ray

[Mechie3]

Things and stuff for Chad. More pics in my thread.

[bstuke]

More pics in my thread.

Way to spill the beans! Put me down for the first set and send me a bill!

[Hindsight]

They look great. It will be interesting to see how much heat they allow to exit. They are the highest point and heat rises, so that's good. The windshield won't allow much flow over them though, but at the same time, the windshield creates a big low pressure area behind it so that could help draw air out through those vents as well. All things considered, I bet they work pretty well and they look good too.

[Frank818]

Don't forget at engine shut down. Heat will exit by itself from these openings, might help reduce heat soak. And if someone really is overkill about preventing heat soaking (like me), it may be possible to fit in some small fans, one per hump. Obviously those fans would work as after-run, though they could also work while running.

[C.Plavan]

My R defies physics with anything aero, I'm not sure what they will do

Thanks Mechie for making those.

Speaking of vents- I found a perfect set of plastic vents to go on the rear bumper. I just need to cut the area then rivet these bad boys on. Amazon.com for $13.98/pr shipped from china.....lol

[bbjones121]

My R defies physics with anything aero, I'm not sure what they will do

Thanks Mechie for making those.

Speaking of vents- I found a perfect set of plastic vents to go on the rear bumper. I just need to cut the area then rivet these bad boys on. Amazon.com for $13.98/pr shipped from china.....lol

Sweet! I have been hoping someone would mold something, possibly VRaptor was, but these would work if I don't hear anything by the time I get tho that point in build. Can you send me link?

[C.Plavan]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o02_s00

[Frank818]

Chad, do you have a problem with heat at the bottom of the rear bumper? Unless you fit ICs like Porsche I just try to understand your gains with these vents.

[C.Plavan]

More flow, less "parachute" effect. I need a lot of exit air to make up for all the other things. Plus they look cool. Lol

[Bob_n_Cincy]

More flow, less "parachute" effect. I need a lot of exit air to make up for all the other things. Plus they look cool. Lol

Chad
You should stand behind my car when the fans kick on in high.
The radiator fins straighten the air flow. You can feel the breeze 50ft behind the car.
Bob
P1050313s.jpg

[bbjones121]

Chad, do you have a problem with heat at the bottom of the rear bumper? Unless you fit ICs like Porsche I just try to understand your gains with these vents.

The porsche is not the only car with these vents in this location. Wheel well venting, sucking air down around the sides of the engine and transmission, and this is one of the few places that you can probably get a good low pressure.


My theory:

I don't even remember who did a string test, but the upper vent above the engine, but I thought the strings sucked in and did not push out. Thus, you are blocking air movement in the engine compartment by having the top vent and the side vents. I would guess the top pressure into the upper vent and the rear vortices prevent air movement from the side vents inward. You get stale air in the engine compartment.

Hopefully Craigs new vents at the top of the hoops allow any air push in by the rear or top deck vent to come off. Then again, any hot air taken from those hoops could just get pushed back into the rear car mesh. I am really curious to see how some of the rear radiator guys end up. The 818 and the Lamborghini Gallardo are some of the only cars that have an open vent in the middle of a flat rear end. Maybe the Lambo isn't even functional there. Most every other mid engine convertible exotic has that area blocked off or has gone through millions of dollars in aerodynamic evaluation to open up the rear end more.

Either way, you need some points on the car that will act as eductors and pull air out. The sides of the rear bumper, look at the Audi R8, can do that and I would think lower side bumper vents would help as well. A diffuser should also provide some eduction if the venting was directly above the diffuser, look at the lotus exige, FFR GTM, almost any diffuser on a ferrari or lamborghini, all have vents directly above the diffuser. Also, the opening behind the rear of the front wheels, look what FFR did with the side opening modification for the 818.

I know the 818 went through "some" wind tunnel testing, but that seemed to be more focused around the aerodynamics of the car, not for engine cooling. In a mid engine car, engine cooling should have been another reason to go back to the wind tunnel.

Having said all that, I would bet Chad is on the verge of figuring this all out for everyone. And we should all be extremely thankful for his efforts.

[metalmaker12]

FFR deff should have done way more wind tunnel development for proper airflow to intercooler !! This is why customers and FFR themselves have had issues with cooling the charged air, etc. they developed a cool car, but it needs much R&D improvement in the charged air cooling related to drivetrain integrity testing. This is why few have lasted long on a track.

In street driving the awic seems to work well in my 818. But remember my tune has zero timing added to control heat and I wrapped everything and have both radiator fans pulling air through awic exchanger

As far as oil temps, I don't have any issues with this in my street car, but apparently it's getting attention from the racers.

[C.Plavan]

If I were to do it again (Which I will never, never, ever do). I would buy a 3.0 thru 3.6L NA Porsche Motor, use 50mm PMO carbs and find a way to make it work in the 818R. Pure simplicity as it best. It would of been cheaper/lighter in the long run. It would of gotten better RMPG (Race miles per gallon). There would of been no need for AWIC (~$1400), iWire ($2200), Dry Sump and associated parts (~$3800), hoses fittings ($500), no radiator ($300), no aluminum coolant tubes (~$600), no need for 3 oil coolers and associated ducts/fans (~$1200) Total: $10K....... Now include the complete plug in race motor/ ECU, Key/immobilizer, Accessport, ($6800) Total $16,800 I could of built one super reliable/bulletproof 911 race motor. Not to mention all the labor of me R&D'ing things plus bigger turbo and injectors. You would not have to worry about coolant temps, AWIC temps, or Oil temps. It would just work!

I figure the weight saved would be at least 200 pounds after negating the weight of the bigger flat 6.

If you are considering building an 818R...... I hope this is an eye opener. I think there is a reason I'm the only one with an 818R on the track.

[Mitch Wright]

Chad,

I think the reason more are not on track yet is A) I my case I got my car much later than you B) again in my case opening a new business has me limited to 6-8 hours a week on the car. I will get more time once the season starts winding down in November. C) I planned for a 1 1/2 build to stretch out the expense and allow me to build the car I want to build. I am getting close to my first start, still need to make the rear AP caliper adapters. Once that is done it will be go kart time.
Trust me I and a number of others have watched your build and learned a ton. But I do plan on having to do some R&D once the car is track ready. (I do have the advantage of having a track outside my office door) I will be running a air to air intercooler, fuel cell, dry sump but the tank will be in the passengers compartment, AP Brakes, Wilwood Pedal Box, JDM twinscroll so I know once running that is running and track ready that just the beginning. And that is what I personally signed up for and enjoy.
I understand your frustration, every race car I have built seems to take at least a 1/2 season to sort out. It looks like the car is showing signs of brilliance and you are so close to over the hump.

[C.Plavan]

I know all about new race car sorting. This is just becoming a ridiculous money pit. If I knew this going in, I would of went a totally separate route. I just want others thinking about building a 818R to know what to expect. I also want others reading this thread to understand what the real costs are. Sure, you see the $10,900 kit price and people think......I can get this thing running for under $20k.... Nope. As we all know, the Factory Five Factory 818R's have basically been mothballed for over a year. I would love to see those on the track again.

If you want to build an 818R, build it with a Porsche motor......

[C.Plavan]

Vents, vents, and more vents!

Thanks to Wayne and Mechie for making the fender louvers. I also installed my lower rear bumper vents to hopefully pull more air out of the rear. I'll be adding the hump vents that Mechie made for me (very quickly I might add) later.

[metalmaker12]

You could have gone H6 3.0-3.6 and had no issues with awic, etc etc. but a turbo engine running considerable boost no matter what company makes it creates power at the expense of heat. For the track a super light 818 with a powerful Na is key

I would go Honda S2k built to make 250whp with a subie 6 speed.

The 818 with proper setup will be a track beast.

[Mechie3]

Nice! First installed pic I've seen of the fender vents. Hump vents are en route. 3 day delivery but it said eta was Thursday since it was dropped off after final pickup today.

[C.Plavan]

You could have gone H6 3.0-3.6 and had no issues with awic, etc etc. but a turbo engine running considerable boost no matter what company makes it creates power at the expense of heat. For the track a super light 818 with a powerful Na is key

I would go Honda S2k built to make 250whp with a subie 6 speed.


The 818 with proper setup will be a track beast.

No dry sump kits for that motor (yet). Deal breaker for a track car.

[C.Plavan]

Nice! First installed pic I've seen of the fender vents. Hump vents are en route. 3 day delivery but it said eta was Thursday since it was dropped off after final pickup today.

Thanks Craig!

[Sgt.Gator]

It will be interesting to see if in a few years the H6 becomes the go to engine for this car. They already make a supercharger for it, now it just needs the dry sump "pan" for a racer package.