RustlesRoadster

[russelljones48]

So, my Mark IV will arrive in the next few days and I thought I should start this thread even though my garage isn’t quite ready.
I’ve been reading through various threads and posts here and this site has already been a great help. However, I have some questions so I’m hoping to get some guidance.
The car will have the Coyote (already in the garage), the TKO 600 (not yet purchased) and IRS. It’s planned for mostly cruising with some just-for-fun track time and autocross. Although I like the “bling” the plan is for it to be fairly minimalist with unassisted steering and un-boosted brakes. I hope to apply the KISS approach. I took advantage of the FFR sale last winter and bought the base kit with most of the upgrades, so you have and idea of what components I have.
I wanted to mention that I’m in the Charlotte area (Mooresville) and have discovered that Mike N is a neighbor!! He will probably get tired of me but has already given of his time and provided valuable guidance.
I haven’t done anything much but basic auto maintenance for a long time and I was pretty much a Chevy guy back when I got most of my shadetree experience so I’d like to start by offering an apology for asking so many questions and for needing so much help. I will probably be much more of a “taker” than a “giver” on this forum…
SO – my first of many questions: How much would a rebuilt MKVIII center section cost – with limited slip? And where might I find one? I have found local rear end assemblies for around $200 but would have to have them rebuilt (note: I did try rebuilding some a long time ago and wasn’t that successful so I think I need a pro).
I’m now off to clear/clean the garage…..

My kit is scheduled to arrive Sunday.. YEAH!! Still have some things to get straightened up in the garage and line up some bodies to help unload. Also need to complete my chassis dolly..

The Kit arrived yesterday - YEAH!!! Did my inventory and it looks like I've got some of the suspension stuff back ordered so it may be a few days before I make much progress. Will hunt down some IRS parts and build a body buck in the interim.

[bansheekev]

I bought my Lincoln MKVIII aluminum center section for $50 at the local pick n pull and re-used only the case and rear cover. Everything else was new - Eaton TrueTrac differential, Ford Racing gearset and pinion flange, bearings, seals, and professionaly assembled for less than $1000. The builder hot tanked it before assembly and I painted it. Came out great.

[Gordon Levy]

I have a couple of T-bird IRS systems in the shop in Kannapolis. I have a mark VIII here I can build up for you.

[russelljones48]

Gordon,

Wow - looks like you have a long commute . Thanks for the response. I haven't ordered the TKO600 yet -waiting to find the pumpkin and gearset to match them up. I think I'm more interested in the MK VIII for the weight savings but am open to discussion. My early budget planning has gone by the wayside - spent WAY more than I planned on the engine and the TKO 600 isn't available used so I'm looking for a cost effective solution. My current thought is to use a "good" pumpkin with factory gearset and add limited slip and then choose the Tremec based on the gearing. I'm assuming the gearing will be around 300 so the Tremec would be the 4617. Thoughts??

[Bob Cowan]

By the time you buy a used pumpkin and add LSD, you might as well get a rebuilt unit from Gordon. Then you can pick the ratio that matches your goals.

Do a forum search on gear ratios. Lots of discussion about the "perfect" gear.

Don't be afraid to use a cast iron pumpkin. It is heavier. But it's also smaller, and easier to R&R. You really won't notice the weight difference.

[CHOTIS BILL]

I went the junk yard route thinking I would save some money doing it myself. After a lot of driving aroung and several skinned knuckles and trying to find all the correct parts I decided buying one setup the way you want is much cheaper.

Bill Lomenick

[soaringDude]

Congrats on your order. I am pretty much doing the same build (my kit should arrive in a few weeks). I just picked up an aluminum center section from a Mark8 and as soon as the gears/bearings show up will be doing the rebuild (haven't decided if I am going to do it myself or get someone to do it for me yet). You can save a few hundred bucks by doing it yourself and it might help you kill some time before your kit gets there

I am putting 3.55 gears in the back but haven't decided on TKO600 vs. TKO500.

[russelljones48]

Bob,

Thanks - good advice and I was thinking that the cast iron unit might not be a bad choice. I'm hoping Gordon will give me a quote for one. I'm not far from his Kannapolis location.

Spent my time today getting a good start on a frame dolly.....

[russelljones48]

SD,

My research shows there's almost no difference in price and the 600 is the better unit. TS at FF says the 600 is all they use now.

[2bking]

I purchased the aluminum pumpkin and parts new from Ford Racing in 2013 and paid about $1200 for all. I think I got one of the last 28 spline Torsen diffs available. The knuckles and hubs also came from Ford Racing with a cost of ~$700. There are excellent directions on the web for setting up the gears. It wasn't that difficult for me but it does require some very accurate measuring instruments.

[carlewms]

Russell,

No advice on the IRS...I took advantage of the "50% off sale" when I bought my base kit and added the IRS from FFR. this was definitely not the least expensive route.

I found installing the differential one of the biggest PIAs of the build because of the weight and way you have to move it to get installed.

Anyway, Welcome to the fun.

Carl

[russelljones48]

Gordon,

Can you give me a price for one of the Kannapolis units with LSD either added or stock?

Russell

[russelljones48]

I've almost got my frame dolly complete and still have not heard from Stewart on my exact delivery date. I've been doing some research (here and on Sergio's site) that I'm hoping some one or several of you can confirm. My research shows that I can use some of the 03/04 SVT Cobra terminator IRS components as follows:
1.) the pumpkin which has 31 spline output for the half shafts
2.) the half shafts will have to be shortened but they have 31 splines inboard and 28 splines outboard
3.) Thunderbird spindles and axle bearings (I will probably use the Whitby bearing set for the mounts)
4.) I won't use the brakes - doing some custom brakes on the Tbird mounts
It seems that the Cobra half shafts are beefier than the Tbird so there may be some advantages there and I'm having much better luck locating the Cobra components locally. Thoughts??

[russelljones48]

My kit arrived Sunday - YEAH!!! And I just found a MVIII rear end as well. Where did you source your gears etc? 3.55 sounds good and I'm looking at the Eaton Trutrac as well. A little pricey but I want to get the rear end right and then just leave it alone. I'm told that it's a PIA to work on it once the car is put together - can't get at it from the underside and must remove the trunk panels to get at it from top.

[russelljones48]

Other than price and color are there any significant differences with these oil pans?

[DaleG]

Both are being used. Both have had quality issues reported in the past. Get the one you favor (for whatever reason), check it out closely, run taps through the threaded openings to make sure all is well, fill it with water and let it sit overnight, and/or dye-check all welds. If all is well, you are good to go; if not, send it back. Just my opinion. Another good option is the Champs pan, offered, I believe, by North Racecars - a forum vendor.

Cheers, Dale

[bansheekev]

My kit arrived Sunday - YEAH!!! And I just found a MVIII rear end as well. Where did you source your gears etc? 3.55 sounds good and I'm looking at the Eaton Trutrac as well. A little pricey but I want to get the rear end right and then just leave it alone. I'm told that it's a PIA to work on it once the car is put together - can't get at it from the underside and must remove the trunk panels to get at it from top.

Here are the parts I used - note that I used the pinion flange and rear cover from the Lincoln MKVIII the aluminum case came out of.

3.55 Ring & Pinion Set Ford Racing DT3600-355
8.8" Ring Gear And Pinion Install Set Ford Racing DT3630
Differential Pinion Flange Bolts Ford N800594-S100
Eaton Detroit Truetrac, 28 spline, 8.8" Ford Eaton 912A562
2 Stub Shaft Pilot Bearing/Seals, 8.8" Ford Ford Racing M-4413-A

[Ray W.]

Congrats on receiving your car! I look forward to reading your build thread.

My kit arrived Sunday - YEAH!!! And I just found a MVIII rear end as well. Where did you source your gears etc? 3.55 sounds good and I'm looking at the Eaton Trutrac as well. A little pricey but I want to get the rear end right and then just leave it alone. I'm told that it's a PIA to work on it once the car is put together - can't get at it from the underside and must remove the trunk panels to get at it from top.

[Mike N]

Other than price and color are there any significant differences with these oil pans?

I have a Canton pan. Not a great fit to the front or rear bearing caps but with some Great Stuff RTV it does seal.

But as we are here to help spend your money take a look at Armandos oil pans. http://aroilpans.com/Roadrace.html

[russelljones48]

Thank you all!! Part numbers and oil pan advice have REALLY helped..

[russelljones48]

So, I'm off this morning to arrange for the pumpkin and IRS pieces I need - thanks again to this forum. And to Mike N. who is off soon to retrieve a broken family car. Safe driving and towing.

He showed me some great exhaust mods and I am wondering if any you know if anyone is making a "better" J pipe for the Coyote and the "spike" for the header? The results of the mods I read are very significant and I will eventually modify the exhaust system. I'm also interested in opinions from the group on port matching and smoothing out the head to header transition area on the FF Coyote headers?

[russelljones48]

For reference - Here's the J pipe mods mentioned by Mike in the other forum:

You can dramatically improve the performance of that area by doing what Rod (DV/DT) did here
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fact...spike-mod.html
and here http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fact...ur-j-pipe.html
Dyno test results here http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fact...ut-videos.html
J pipe porting and aerospike added 23HP for a few hours work.

[russelljones48]

SoaringDude,

How are you doing? Got your kit yet? My order was short some suspension components which I'm waiting for and I'm biding my time with research. I've found a local source here in NC for my pumpkin and potentially some more of the driveline. I'm off to see him this am. Thanks for helping me "keep the faith" and continue on my quest for a less costly solution.

You might want to look through the exhaust system mods I mentioned below. FFR is still shipping a J-pipe that really restricts the exhaust flow (robs 20-25 HP). I'm inquiring to see if anyone does the mods and/or sells a better J-pipe. This is a mod I could tackle myself but it would probably involve purchasing a new welder (mines an Miller stick unit) and getting access to a drill press. So, it may just be easier to buy....

[Avalanche325]

Thank you all!! Part numbers and oil pan advice have REALLY helped..

I am not sure how you decided to go. But I saw a Moroso pan that had a little ball of welding slag come off. It was small enough to go through the strainer and big enough to jam the oil pump.

Check any pan for that type of thing. If there are slag balls anywhere, use a chisel and get them out of there. I have a Champ pan, nice pan BTW, and found a flat washer floating around in the bottom.

On a performance engine, nothing is a bolt on item. Check and clean everything first. I also loc-tite screws for windage trays, etc.

[russelljones48]

Great advice - thanks. One of my old habits is to chase all threads, de-burr and generally clean up welds and castings and wash all parts in in hot soapy water... Sounds like that habit will help me avoid problems.

On the subject of pans, I'm leaning towards one of Armando's pans. I've heard good things about them. They are a bit pricey but he offers $100 rebate if I return my New Coyote pan to him.

I'm now trying to solve for my pedal box..... I'm hoping to use Tilton pedals but don't know what mods will be required to a Mustang box or even if that's possible.

[russelljones48]

SO, after wasting 1 4X8 sheet of plywood, I have my modified body buck pretty much complete. I have to admit the drawings in the appendix confused me a bit and in trying to move quickly with a modified buck my computations were off. For anyone who's modifying the buck I think it helps to know some of the specific dimensions rather than have to compute them as you make cuts (DUH).... For instance the front piece is 66" wide and the rear is 69" - I got those wrong the first time :-(.

[russelljones48]

I also can't find an IRS assembly video for the MK4. Is there one available?

[soaringDude]

I am doing great, though getting tired of waiting It should be here on Sat. morning. I have been doing research for months and months, time to put some work in!

Good luck with the parts hunt and I will post an update as soon as I get my kit and go through inventory. I hope the suspension parts and brakes get here quickly.

I haven't decided what I want to do with the headers yet, but I knew I didn't want to J-pipe so ordered without that part. I could go for the stainless headers solution which is a very nicely done header but that costs quite a bit and I am already over budget thanks to many upgrade and winter sale not being as good as some of the previous sales. But then again I waited a couple of decades to get this project started, what's another $1275? This line of thinking is going to cost me!!!

Keep us posted.

SoaringDude,

How are you doing? Got your kit yet? My order was short some suspension components which I'm waiting for and I'm biding my time with research. I've found a local source here in NC for my pumpkin and potentially some more of the driveline. I'm off to see him this am. Thanks for helping me "keep the faith" and continue on my quest for a less costly solution.

You might want to look through the exhaust system mods I mentioned below. FFR is still shipping a J-pipe that really restricts the exhaust flow (robs 20-25 HP). I'm inquiring to see if anyone does the mods and/or sells a better J-pipe. This is a mod I could tackle myself but it would probably involve purchasing a new welder (mines an Miller stick unit) and getting access to a drill press. So, it may just be easier to buy....

[soaringDude]

Perfect timing! I was cutting my body buck yesterday and realized I don't have enough info to finish cutting the back panel. Do you have a pointer to the modification you are talking about? Yesterday I decided to stop cutting the last parts and left it until I get the kit and measure it off of the body. But if I find a source for the infamous "stans mod".

SO, after wasting 1 4X8 sheet of plywood, I have my modified body buck pretty much complete. I have to admit the drawings in the appendix confused me a bit and in trying to move quickly with a modified buck my computations were off. For anyone who's modifying the buck I think it helps to know some of the specific dimensions rather than have to compute them as you make cuts (DUH).... For instance the front piece is 66" wide and the rear is 69" - I got those wrong the first time :-(.

[Jazzman]

You might want to check into the oil pan made by Gordon Levy at Levy Racing. He has one that is fitted correctly to not extend below the frame. That is not an item that I want hanging down as the lowest item under the car!!

Jazzman

[russelljones48]

Thanks - that's one I hadn't researched. And your absolutely right, I don't want my oil pan to be my belly pan

[bansheekev]

Not to tempt you to spend more money but here is another vote for stainless 4:1:4 headers. I had almost zero alignment problems with the sidepipes. Just had to reduce 3 of the 3/8" bolts on each side to 5/16" bolts to get them to rotate down ever so slightly at the tip of the pipe. No shims no wedges no nothing. All the Bay Area guys here were jealous as they have all had to mess with headers to get good alignment. Not cheap but they definitely saved me all sorts of headaches...

Kevin

[russelljones48]

The only pan I could find on the Levy site was a mustang pan... Do you have his part number and a price?

rj

[stevenburgess]

Russell,
I live over in concord. Any chance I could come over and take a look at your kit. I don't know if you got in on the foot box mod that king did. I got one if you want to check it out.

[stevenburgess]

I have not ordered my MK4 yet, but planning on it in the very near future

[russelljones48]

Steven,

Absolutely!! I'm hoping to get the body off today and you're welcome any time when I'm around (which is most of the time :-) ). I will send a private message with contact info. The footbox mod is under consideration although I'm no completely sure yet if it applies to my kit.

Russell

[stevenburgess]

Cool,

Look forward to it.

[russelljones48]

So, this weekend was busy. Detailed our boat on Saturday - going to sell it - and then finished the body buck and got the body off my M4 on Sunday. Found my IRS unit today - YEAH '98 MarkVIII Lincoln unit - should have it tomorrow. So, as soon as FF gets me some of the missing parts I can actually start assembling the chassis and suspension.

[Slider]

Not to tempt you to spend more money but here is another vote for stainless 4:1:4 headers. I had almost zero alignment problems with the sidepipes. Just had to reduce 3 of the 3/8" bolts on each side to 5/16" bolts to get them to rotate down ever so slightly at the tip of the pipe. No shims no wedges no nothing. All the Bay Area guys here were jealous as they have all had to mess with headers to get good alignment. Not cheap but they definitely saved me all sorts of headaches...

Kevin

Just adding my 2 cents on the headers... look closely at the Stainless Headers product. I had the first set (they modelled them on my car, in my garage) and have got to know those guys as they are set up in my hometown. First rate product, no fit issues and really good people. The craftsmanship is incredible....

[bansheekev]

I took one look at the pictures of the headers installed on Sliders car as soon as Stainless Headers delivered them and I placed an order the next day. Thank you to Slider for living close by to these guys to be all of our guinea pig!

Kevin

Just adding my 2 cents on the headers... look closely at the Stainless Headers product. I had the first set (they modelled them on my car, in my garage) and have got to know those guys as they are set up in my hometown. First rate product, no fit issues and really good people. The craftsmanship is incredible....