Question about mounting different v4 engine and transmission into 818s

[Wes.myers]

I have been for some time considering buying the 818s kit and as I researched the boxer engine and it's size I became intrigued with its many similarities to the older 90s model eagle talon that I own. Mine has a turbocharged v4 mitubishi forged internals engine and has the same awd system which includes the belt transmission, a manual of course. Now the question that now presents itself is rather or not I could, with minor to moderate fabrication, fit this engine into the 818s. This would save me a great deal of money and considering the power of the mitubishi engine, it would also exhibit great performance gains. So if anyone has any advice or tips that you could give me or help me figure out if this is even a reasonable modification or if it is way too complicated to be worth it at the end, it would be greatly appreciated. It would also be helpful if anyone knew if I could used any part of the suspension of the eagle talon that would be otherwise needed from a donor subaru

[longislandwrx]

What do you think is similar about the ej20 and the 4g63 besides displacement?

Assuming you meant inline 4, you would want the FWD GST transmission rather than the AWD unit. You would need to do significant frame modifications, and custom axles.

It will take a lot of work but would be a pretty neat project considering that motors potential.

[Frank818]

Read this http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-tranny-viable

I believe it may answer most of your questions.
Time to take measurements and compare with the 818 frame to at least give you an idea of the physical placement.

[Wes.myers]

I can provide more information on the engine and the specs when I have the time to give it a closer inspection. It's my dad's car but he recently bought a supercharged 350z and considering that there are a few problems with the eagle's engine (minor, involving something with the electric fuel injection system) it has been sitting in my driveway collecting dust. From what I've gathered, it is a TSi with the five speed manual and the engine was replaced (not sure the exact mileage) with a direct imported one from Japan. Anyways, I am on a pretty tight budget so re engineering the frame may be a little out of my range, I was hoping that maybe if I was to completely disassemble the talon's engine and clean it up make sure everything is functioning properly and then rebuild it with the 818 frame right next to it so that I can see what parts fit and which do not and maybe find alternative parts online that would fit. And as for the transmission, are you sure that that transmission would fit correctly? From my, admittedly very limited, knowledge I believed that an AWD transmission could be modified to put power only into the front wheels because the wrx and the talon have a very similar setup in that respect but then again I'm new to this. I'd just like to create a very unique kit car while avoiding having to buy another car (considering that all the parts needed from a donor suburu would probably be best if new) and from the boost that eagle puts out and the crazy acceleration on a 2800 lb body, I can't imagine what kind of g force it could create in the 818 and thats something I'd like to see.
thanks in advance for your help longislandwrx

[Wes.myers]

I actually was looking at that forum earlier, very helpful. I'll get the measurements and keep y'all updated. thanks frank818

[305mouse]

Engine aside, none of the other parts are going to fit. You would have to source all those parts. If you have a pretty tight budget, best way to go is a single donor Subaru. Rebuild that Mitsu engine and that's always an interesting project to try at a later date, once you've gotten your feet wet in the world of kit cars

[Wes.myers]

Yeah I was thinking that too, 305mouse. What iv don't want is to put all this power and suspension gritting forced induction into it and allow for there to be a weak link. Which is why I'm skeptical about a donor car. I'd like to get all new parts for it since finding a donor car in near to perfect condition was a bit too optimistic. Rebuilding that Mitsubishi and with a twin turbo set up that I would likely apply to it. There is no doubt in my mind that it could achieve +400hp which wouldn't fare well on 120k mile worn Subaru parts. I am still in the very first steps of my research so nothing is solid. There are innumerable questions I could ask. But i appreciate all the help I can get so any information will do.

[StatGSR]

You got some research to do, its seems like you only have a very basic understanding of the 4G63 and its drive train and even smaller understanding of the subaru drive train and what parts are needed to build a 818.

Simply put, there is no "bolt in" solution for what you are trying to do.

[Turboguy]

A flat-4 is nothing at all like an inline-4.


It just isn't.

[Wes.myers]

Okay I've got the dimensions for the engine:
- height: ~24 inches
- width: ~ 37 inches
- length: ~21.5 inches
Which,from what I've read, would fit into the hub of the 818. Now StatGSR makes an excellent point, I know virtually nothing about the Subaru engine or it's transmission or the suspension of the 818 so I'm relying on all you seasoned vets who could possibly point me in a direction to enlighten me on the subject. But regardless, now that I know that the talon engine will fit into the hub the only thing I need to worry about now is fabricating an engine mount for it. Also, from what y'all have told me there is no reasonable way to make the AWD transmission work in the 818 so what transmission should I look into?

[StatGSR]

do you want to mount the engine transversely like it is in the talon or longitudinally like it is in a subaru? you have to look at the engine and transmission as a package to determine if it will fit. Also the odds of it "fitting" without reworking the chassis in some way are extremely slim.

To drop it in transversely, you would just want to use a FWD DSM transmission. to drop it in longitudinally, you would probably need an adapter plate (among other customizations) to mate to a subaru transmission.

Regardless of what engine you want to use, it still is worth while to buy a donor to build out an 818, that is why it was suggested to you earlier by 305mouse.

[Wes.myers]

The measurements I listed above included the transmission. So I think going longitude would be the better option from what you've told me. I found a rebuilt FWD DSM transmission for the talon that was completely rebuilt for $1,100 here is the link to that: http://www.karking.com/index.php/reb...nsmission.html

I am sure that there will be fabrication to be done for it to fit correctly and I expect that but I am trying to simplify the amount of fabrication required.

[Xusia]

A flat-4 is nothing at all like an inline-4.


It just isn't.

True, but I'm not sure I understand why you are stating that. There's no inherent reason the car needs a boxer engine, nor any inherent reason an inline 4 couldn't work - especially if he happens to like a particular inline 4 engine.

[Canadian818]

That transmission would force you to mount transversely, and IMO put all the weight too far back. Measure the length of motor, add an inch for an adapter plate, now subtract the length of the subaru motor and that's how much further forward you'll have to go. I'd imagine you'll have to cut into the frame and modify the gas tank.

Or you could sell the talon, and buy a subaru, and rebuild everything...probably cheaper

[StatGSR]

That transmission would force you to mount transversely, and IMO put all the weight too far back. Measure the length of motor, add an inch for an adapter plate, now subtract the length of the subaru motor and that's how much further forward you'll have to go. I'd imagine you'll have to cut into the frame and modify the gas tank.

Or you could sell the talon, and buy a subaru, and rebuild everything...probably cheaper

If it was mounted transversely it would be with a DSM transmission and would not need an adapter plate, if it was longitudinal it would need an adaptor plate, and the engine "width" would be come the engine "length"

don't disagree about just selling the talon though, it sounds like a lot of dinking around to install a ~$1000 engine. Atleast Frank has a real and significant investment into his VR6 engine so i can kinda get that. One could get more use out of the talon with a RCR APEX if they were dead set on using the engine and parts though, from what i have seen its going to be a beautiful car.

[Frank818]

Regardless of what engine you want to use, it still is worth while to buy a donor to build out an 818, that is why it was suggested to you earlier by 305mouse.

I highly suggest that. I'm sure you'll spend so much time trying to fit the engine and tranny (whichever brand they are), reworking some of the frame, that you most probably would really not want to start all over again for every single nut and bolt left to use from the non-Subaru donor. That's what I discovered during my analysis, I may be wrong, but I don't wanna know on that. lolll

[Wes.myers]

Well of course there are many factors discouraging my attempt to fabricate this engine and tranny into the 818s but I am the kind of guy who likes to do things in an unorthodox way So I believe there is always a way to do something and make it work. I posted this thread because I needed some people out there who have had experience with the 818s and all the framework. I know that the Subaru engine is much different than the inline 4 but that has little to do with how it will fit into the 818s. Of course this has yet to be done but if everyone who was interested in doing this waited for another guy to be crazy enough to try no one would get ahead. I just need to have a fair amount of confidence that this can be done without back tracking and ultimately screwing up the entire symmetry and geometry of the 818s suspension and frame that the Guys at factory five spent so much time perfecting. That would defeat the purpose of the build. From the measurements I took, I should only have to add on to the frame extra support for the Inline 4. Now that can be mostly done by a shop. Now that's where I'd like you guys out there to help me. Suggest to me what exactly I could do to accomplish this.o

[blueoval_bowtie_guy]

If you are really on a tight budget, by a wrecked non-WRX Imprezza with low mileage. The weight of the car even with a stock NA Subaru 2.0 will be very impressive (just ask people with a lot of HP who've been beaten on a track by a Miata).

[StatGSR]

Suggest to me what exactly I could do to accomplish this.

Have you read the entire thread that Frank originally linked you to? Its is the same conversation for a transvers VW power plant and addresses all the same major concerns you would have to. You will also learn that Frank is planning to attempt to do a VW VR6 drivetrain into the 818. I think Frank may have started another thread addressing some of his expected concerns but i am not 100% sure.

Bottom line is that there will be an unknown amount of custumization until somebody has done it. Just because the basic dimensions seem to work doesnt mean that when it comes to routing everything (exhaust, intake, water lines) you wont run into further interferances. At a minimum expect custom axles to the tune of ~$1000, custom shift linkage, exhaust, etc. simply put, prepare your pocket book for a number of suprises that will enevitably come up.

[Turboguy]

Why don't you go drive that 1990 eagle talon, and then immediately go hit a dealership and drive a WRX or -better yet- an STi.


Then drop back here and tell us if you still want to use a mitsubishi engine whose design roots date to the mid 1980's in an 818 .

[Frank818]

Have you read the entire thread that Frank originally linked you to? Its is the same conversation for a transvers VW power plant and addresses all the same major concerns you would have to. You will also learn that Frank is planning to attempt to do a VW VR6 drivetrain into the 818. I think Frank may have started another thread addressing some of his expected concerns but i am not 100% sure.

I did start my own thread and am moving all my further issues, ideas, concerns, etc. to my thread.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...r-Build-Thread

Bottom line is that there will be an unknown amount of custumization until somebody has done it. Just because the basic dimensions seem to work doesnt mean that when it comes to routing everything (exhaust, intake, water lines) you wont run into further interferances. At a minimum expect custom axles to the tune of ~$1000, custom shift linkage, exhaust, etc. simply put, prepare your pocket book for a number of suprises that will enevitably come up.

That is true, all true and true again.
I think people here on the forum helped as much as possible, all the measurements of the 818 are available and with pictures. From there it's up to one to check his engine/tranny, without accessories (too hard with them) and try to guess out of thin air the feasibility of the swap. Or should I say, the difficulty level of the swap. I personally am very well backed by my mech, so it lowered considerably my number of freaking moments. Without him I don't think I would have attempted the swap without someone else doing it before.

[Oppenheimer]

If the reason you want to drop the Mitsu motor into the 818 is to save money, since you already have that drivetrain, this would be false economy. You will spend way more to get that motor and trans (or even just motor mated to Subie trans) than you will save. For the $ you will have invested by the time you are done, you could have bought a killer Subie setup.

Now, if you just want to do this 'cause its cool, and you have the $$ to spend, then go for it. We're here to help any way we can.

One thing you mentioned was not messing up the balance and symmetry FFR carefully designed into this car, well then even just using the different motor, let alone the longitudinal mounitng imposed by the trans (if you use it), will change the front:rear weight bias of the car. Who knows what effect that will have on handling. Best dive in to this idea with eyes wide open.

If you really, really want to do this, I would suggest you buy an 818, build it 'normal', drive it around for a while, then sell it. Then use that expereicne to plan and build your Mitsu powered 818. Otherwise I fear you will get part way into this and find you can't complete it, and will have trouble selling what you have since you will have hacked up the 818 chassis at that point.

[Mechie3]

If the reason you want to drop the Mitsu motor into the 818 is to save money, since you already have that drivetrain, this would be false economy. You will spend way more to get that motor and trans (or even just motor mated to Subie trans) than you will save.

There's a little saying I love:

Never buy a part for $10 if you can make it yourself for $20.



I did that last week. Paid $9 to buy a threading die to make a part I found on ebay for $3. Granted, the tool is a durable part and can make more, but if I never use it again I spent 3x the cost of the part just to say I made my own.

[BrandonDrums]

Yeah I was thinking that too, 305mouse. What iv don't want is to put all this power and suspension gritting forced induction into it and allow for there to be a weak link. Which is why I'm skeptical about a donor car. I'd like to get all new parts for it since finding a donor car in near to perfect condition was a bit too optimistic. Rebuilding that Mitsubishi and with a twin turbo set up that I would likely apply to it. There is no doubt in my mind that it could achieve +400hp which wouldn't fare well on 120k mile worn Subaru parts. I am still in the very first steps of my research so nothing is solid. There are innumerable questions I could ask. But i appreciate all the help I can get so any information will do.

Well of course there are many factors discouraging my attempt to fabricate this engine and tranny into the 818s but I am the kind of guy who likes to do things in an unorthodox way So I believe there is always a way to do something and make it work. I posted this thread because I needed some people out there who have had experience with the 818s and all the framework. I know that the Subaru engine is much different than the inline 4 but that has little to do with how it will fit into the 818s. Of course this has yet to be done but if everyone who was interested in doing this waited for another guy to be crazy enough to try no one would get ahead. I just need to have a fair amount of confidence that this can be done without back tracking and ultimately screwing up the entire symmetry and geometry of the 818s suspension and frame that the Guys at factory five spent so much time perfecting. That would defeat the purpose of the build. From the measurements I took, I should only have to add on to the frame extra support for the Inline 4. Now that can be mostly done by a shop. Now that's where I'd like you guys out there to help me. Suggest to me what exactly I could do to accomplish this.o

The money you're going to spend R&D'ing the build to fit your mitsubishi parts and fabricate/modify all that's needed to shoehorn the parts in will far exceed what's needed to get a Subaru donor to a reliable 400whp build.

1: Save your cash for the R&D and shopwork, get a WRX donor with or without a working engine or transmission.
2: Take a 2 grand and build up the transmission with stronger gears and a stronger clutch
3: Then take 3-5k and build up your engine with all new forged internals and get yourself a big turbo, injectors and a fuel pump and get a good tune.
4: Enjoy the fact that you have a car that works the way it's supposed to rather than kicking yourself finding out there's not enough forward or vertical space in the 818 chassis to allow for your Mitsubishi parts without essentially coming up with a completely new chassis that won't fit under the existing bodywork.

You're forgetting that if you have to lengthen or widen the chassis that you'll render your bodywork useless and the 818 chassis isn't ideal as an EXO car.

If money isn't a problem and you really just want a lightweight Mid-engine chassis for your Mitsubishi drivetrain then honestly, and I'm being 100% serious here, you're FAR better off working with a pal good at fab work to weld up a chassis from scratch for your build than trying to modify the 818. You're basically going to be doing the same amount of work all while having payed for a bunch of body parts and chassis bits that simply won't work when it's all done. Just pay for the steel and the fab work instead and make an EXO car. The cost would be the same for a better result.. There are actually plenty of plans for EXO car frames on the internet. Heck, you could even get a Caterham 7 kit and mate your mitsubishi engine up to the RWD transmission using an adapter plate more easily than trying to redo the 818 compartment to fit a transverse I4 drivetrain into.

Before the 818 existed, there was (and still kind-of is) a subaru based kit car company called "Matrix" who essentially built custom exo car chassis that were developed off of subaru parts. There were a few guys who ran non subaru gear on them since each chassis was custom made it was easy to work with the team to do the R&D and since there was no bodywork involved it was even easier.
http://www.kitspeed.com/2010/10/03/s...x-motor-werks/

That's more or less what you need. Without the knowledge of how the structural supports operate on the 818, I don't think any of us could really tell you what could be cut and moved to make room for your little drivetrain. However, if you had full freedom to take a basic working exocar design and simply develop the engine compartment around your needs, you'd be fine.

[D K]

Where is the V4 that was mentioned in the title?

[StatGSR]

Where is the V4 that was mentioned in the title?

There is no V4 man.

[Frank818]

Wes.myers, can you remind me (or us) your goal by using this Mitsu I4? What are you trying to achieve that you wouldn't with the H4/H6?

I asked myself that question before I decided to give it a try with the VW VR6 and I figured it personally was worth the try. Will it be worth it "in the end" after all the costs are drawn, who knows, if I'm the first no one knows for sure until I do it. But I asked myself before that if there were anything in it for me and it turned out there was quite a lot for me to take the risk. I'd like to know what's in it for you again? You really need to weigh in carefully the pros and cons, cuz there is a risk for sure and usually "risk" = "money" when the risk actually gets to life.

[StatGSR]

Also if your dead set on the 4G63 power plant, there are other kit car options either currently avaliable or coming to light soon. Race Care Replicas/Superlite Cars currently has the Razor and is working on the APEX both of which use this power plant in a MR layout, the APEX actually uses the shell to maintain a production car interior.

[Oppenheimer]

The APEX does sound like the right option for him. It reuses even more of his Mitsu than the 818 ever could. Not just drivetrain and such, but like StatGSR mentioned, the basic shell as well. The best part is it would all go together quickly and hassle free (compared to trying to stuff square peg into round hole of Mitsu into 818).

I'm not trying to say a Mitsu into an 818 is a bad idea. Someone will do it, and it will be unique and cool. But this guy sounds like he wants to do it to reuse what he already has and to save $.

Dreamcars are a funny thing. You want something different, and special and fast and cool and you start thinking how you've got to make your build more exotic. When the truth is if you build it completely stock it will still be faster than almost any other car you will ever encounter, and you will probably never see another one on the road unless you are going to visit FFR or to an FFR meet. The trouble is on a forum like this you won't stand out if you build stock, but everywhere else you ever go, your stock kit car will be the most exotic thing there (witness Wayne's orange 818 grabbing all the attention away from the modified Lamborgini parked next to him at SEMA).

On the forum you are just another stock build, but you can't drive your car on the forum. Everywhere you actually drive your car, you will be the most exotic thing most people have ever seen. Don't make your fantasy car so fantastic that you can't ever build it.

[Frank818]

Excellent statements, Oppenheimer.

[blueoval_bowtie_guy]

... Don't make your fantasy car so fantastic that you can't ever build it.

Couldn't agree more! The more you deviate from the standard build the MORE experience you need to already have under your belt. There is a reason that you can buy partially completed kits - some people get in over their heads whether it is experience, financial or time. The more you stray from the "standard" the more difficult it will be to get help. If you decide to undertake the build with the Mitsubishi engine and for some reason you want / need to sell it, you will probably have to give it away. You won't be able to get back anything more than a very small percentage of what you've sunk into it.

[BrandonDrums]

The APEX does sound like the right option for him. It reuses even more of his Mitsu than the 818 ever could. Not just drivetrain and such, but like StatGSR mentioned, the basic shell as well. The best part is it would all go together quickly and hassle free (compared to trying to stuff square peg into round hole of Mitsu into 818).

I'm not trying to say a Mitsu into an 818 is a bad idea. Someone will do it, and it will be unique and cool. But this guy sounds like he wants to do it to reuse what he already has and to save $.

Dreamcars are a funny thing. You want something different, and special and fast and cool and you start thinking how you've got to make your build more exotic. When the truth is if you build it completely stock it will still be faster than almost any other car you will ever encounter, and you will probably never see another one on the road unless you are going to visit FFR or to an FFR meet. The trouble is on a forum like this you won't stand out if you build stock, but everywhere else you ever go, your stock kit car will be the most exotic thing there (witness Wayne's orange 818 grabbing all the attention away from the modified Lamborgini parked next to him at SEMA).

On the forum you are just another stock build, but you can't drive your car on the forum. Everywhere you actually drive your car, you will be the most exotic thing most people have ever seen. Don't make your fantasy car so fantastic that you can't ever build it.

Plus it will sound so much better. Boxer 4 rumble or the Porsche-esque exotic scream of the H6. Why do an I4 at all? It might sound decent for an I4 but it's still a bumblebee.

[Xusia]

You can make a I4 sound good. I currently have one that does!

[D K]

I can't think of too many V4 engines in production cars.

There is the Desmosedici engine from Ducati and the RSV4 from Aprilia though....


Although it is totally possible to run an INLINE engine flat on it's side with a dry sump system.

Just sayin'

[Frank818]

Although it is totally possible to run an INLINE engine flat on it's side with a dry sump system.

I am very curious to understand why as I can't picture that, I don't know enough yet. Tnx for educating me.
And also why are you bringing up dry sump?

[D K]

You might have oil starvation issues if you took a wet sump and turned it sideways

[Frank818]

Oh ok I get your point, if you take the I4 which is always standing up like most of the engines (unlike H4-6s) and you lay it down on the side to make it a false H4. Ok I get that.

[D K]

Toyota Previa being one

[Silvertop]

I can't think of too many V4 engines in production cars.

There is the Desmosedici engine from Ducati and the RSV4 from Aprilia though....


Although it is totally possible to run an INLINE engine flat on it's side with a dry sump system.

Just sayin'

Well, there IS the Ford V4 used by SAAB in the late 60's and early 70's -- But though it was a good, sturdy engine for the time, its dated technology would make it a questionable (silly, even) selection as an alternative power source in the 818, though it would probably fit in the space............