Want to build an 818C, but very concerned about inspection, titling, and registration

[zivarah]

Hello everyone,
First post here. I have recently been doing a ton of research into the 818C and am extremely excited about the prospect of building one. However, I have some concerns that I was hoping to discuss with you all.

Let's start with my reasoning for choosing the 818C as opposed to an R/S, or a different kit altogether.
Ever since I learned about the idea of a kit car, I've wanted to build one. However, I was always held back by one simple fact - a kit car isn't a good car to take on a trip. I live in Madison, WI, and do most of my performance driving in the Chicago area, and I'm usually there overnight. As a result, the car I take needs to be in a truck with a trailer (I don't really have room for this, and the extra cost isn't appealing), or it needs to be able to survive the inevitable rain.
The 818C promises to give me that second option - a light, fast, mid-engine kit car that is just practical enough to pull of that kind of trip. I'd still have my WRX as my daily driver and winter car, and the 818C for weekends and racing.

As a side note, would a soft-top 818S also give me the ability to realistically drive this thing through a rainstorm? If so, I could definitely consider that over the 818C - A little cheaper and easy to pull the top off. The following concerns still stand, but insight on this would be appreciated too!

So, I've been researching the 818C. I've made spreadsheets with all of the expected costs, super detailed tool and supply lists, etc. In terms of money and my ability to build it, I think that I'm in good shape. So what's holding me back?

1. Inspection, titling, and registration: This is the big one. I've been poring over the Wisconsin legislation surrounding the requirements for this, and it doesn't look good. It's hard to read through and really understand exactly what is required, but I have the following list of concerns:
   
   
   • Trans 305.27, Stat 347.475: Airbags - They talk about removing or disabling, but it isn't clear how many/which airbags are required for a home built vehicle
   • Trans 305.18: Bumpers - "Every homemade or reconstructed motor vehicle registered after January 1, 1975, shall be equipped with front and rear bumpers which provide damage protection that is equivalent to that provided by the bumpers of vehicles manufactured for sale in the year the homemade or reconstructed vehicle is first registered." I have no idea if the 818C qualifies here.
   • Trans 305.29: Steering - It says that the power steering unit shall be in proper working condition. If I understand correctly, the standard 818 build involves removing the power steering entirely. I don't see any information in the assembly guide about if there are any extra steps or modifications needed to keep the power steering, and I also can't tell if removing it is allowed under this section.
   • Trans 305.33: Windshield defroster-defogger - Looks like I need a defogger. How hard is it to add this to an 818C?
   • Trans 305.35: Windsheld Wipers - Looks like I have to have a windshield washer system. I don't see any option for this in the assembly guide, so I'm guessing I'd have to invent something.
   • Stat 347.39: Mufflers - It says that "No person shall operate on a highway any motor vehicle subject to registration unless such motor vehicle is equipped with an adequate muffler in constant operation and properly maintained to prevent any excessive or unusual noise or annoying smoke." This is ambiguous - what constitutes an "adequate" muffler? It looks like the 818 doesn't come with one, so I'd need to have one fitted, but I don't know how beefy it needs to be.
   • Trans 305.20: Exhaust/Air pollution control systems - Will the 818 pass emissions tests without modification? I know that it has the one cat pipe from the donor car, is that enough?
   
   Overall, it seems like if I built a kit car in 2017, it would subject to the same safety standards as an ordinary factory built 2017 vehicle.
   I'm probably missing some other things here too. I did see two threads that looked promising (DMV Vehicle Registration Information Thread and Registration (Wisconsin as an example)), but they didn't really get me very far - there's not much actual concrete info. I'm not confident that I will be able to contact the DMV and really get in touch with anyone that can definitely confirm that I'll be able to actually drive the thing. I spent a long while searching, and couldn't find any confirmation that anyone has ever registered an 818 in Wisconsin. I'd be absolutely crushed if I spent all that time, effort, and money for nothing.
   
   
2. Crash safety: I'm curious if anyone has any sort of data surrounding the safety of these cars in a crash. My understanding is that you only get one airbag (the one in the steering wheel - that is active, right?). How well is this vehicle going to keep me safe if I get into a fender bender? A highway crash at 70 mph? A crash on the race track? Is it easy to add a passenger airbag?
   
3. Consistency/Quality control: While scanning around this forum, I found this post regarding some body fitment issues. It looks like a lot of folks have had issues with body panels not fitting well together, especially with the hard top. Is this a low percentage thing that we're just hearing from those affected, or is it really common? If I had to do a bunch of my own body modifications just to get the kit to fit together, I would be disappointed since I have no experience with that and would likely not get it perfect.

Any thoughts on these concerns would be greatly, greatly appreciated. Specifically, if anyone has successfully registered an 818 in Wisconsin, that would be invaluable.
This is my dream project, but right now it doesn't look like it's really possible and I doubt the state inspection/titling laws are going to be any more lenient in the future...

And finally, if I were to buy a pre-built, already titled car from a different state, would it be easier to get it registered than one that currently has no title at all?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Ray]

Welcome to the family. As to your questions, I'd start here:http://www.semasan.com/page.asp?cont...093.1478966452 and check the reg/title instructions for WI. Since that is your State of residence you only have to satisfy those requirements. SEMA has done a great job gathering this information and fighting for us gearheads.

Best of luck with your project.

Ray

[turbomacncheese]

As a couple of general points, I would think that power steering pump in good shape implies: "IF" there is a power steering pump.
https://youtu.be/O4JnVBv8ov4?t=40s

I've seen the windshield washer/wiper on several 818c builds, some of them using donor parts.

I'd imagine that most of the mufflers sold in your local autozones/oreilly/DAP/NAPA whatever meet state regs. If performance is an issue, install it with a test pipe so you can remove it when you get to where you're going.

I think these things are also being registered in California, which has some pretty strict emissions requirements the way I understand it. If it can pass there, it can pass anywhere. I know a lot of stuff on the engine, including the air pump, tends to get "simplified" during the build, so you may have to consider NOT doing that. If the engine passes emissions in a WRX, it can pass emissions in an 818 until you start modifying it. A second cat is helpful, but only makes the difference between pass/fail on a worn out or heavily modified engine.

I haven't seen anything about crash safety, either, and I'd like to know what kind of experiences people have. Out here, most crashes are fender-benders from texting in stop and go traffic. That won't be cheap, I think. But still, they have to be safer than motorcycles, right?

[Joseph]

It is definitely my understanding there is no provision for airbags at all. You take the airbag out of the steering column as part of the construction process. You could call or write IWIRE and get their opinion on what it would cost to put in the electronics for airbags. Even then I do not think anyone had engineered or crash tested this car for there use.

[turbomacncheese]

I don't think crash testing was part of the process either, but if anyone crashed one accidentally and has a story to tell, I'll listen.

[Shawn818c]

There has been at least one 818 accident. I think the body sustained heavy damage but the occupants were unharmed. I believe those in California are using a loophole stating that the vehicle is a '60s replica thus it only has to meet '60s emissions standards.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I don't think crash testing was part of the process either, but if anyone crashed one accidentally and has a story to tell, I'll listen.

Turbo,
I bought the body and frame of the 818 that was crashed for spare parts.
It hit a tree on it's first test drive.
Front right frame damage. Front nose and hood major damage. Other minor damage as a result of high G stop.
Not for sure of the cause. But I suspect that the brakes weren't sorted out yet.
Bob
ffff.jpg

[turbomacncheese]

Bob,
Oh man, that looks like it hit hard. On the upside, it doesn't look like very much happened in the passenger space. I can imagine it being a very violent stop, though. Looks like the sort of thing to turn a fun car into a junker. I don't imagine that was rebuildable. And that looks like it would crush a fuel cell right up front there if I had decided to follow you. Definitely doesn't seem like a good idea for a street car, now.

Thank you.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob,
Oh man, that looks like it hit hard. On the upside, it doesn't look like very much happened in the passenger space. I can imagine it being a very violent stop, though. Looks like the sort of thing to turn a fun car into a junker. I don't imagine that was rebuildable. And that looks like it would crush a fuel cell right up front there if I had decided to follow you. Definitely doesn't seem like a good idea for a street car, now.

Thank you.

Turbo,
I believe it is rebuildable. But with my 2 other 818, I doubt that I will. On my 818, I added front and rear bumpers.
Bob
bump.jpg

[07FIREBLADE]

There has been at least one 818 accident. I think the body sustained heavy damage but the occupants were unharmed. I believe those in California are using a loophole stating that the vehicle is a '60s replica thus it only has to meet '60s emissions standards.

Ding ding ding. Chicken dinner!!!

[RM1SepEx]

There has to be someone with registration experience in WI. Maine has specific rules but they were easy to meet. An S with a top is weather capable

[turbomacncheese]

Turbo,
I believe it is rebuildable. But with my 2 other 818, I doubt that I will. On my 818, I added front and rear bumpers.
Bob
bump.jpg

Either way, seeing that much damage up front, and virtually no crumpling in the passenger compartment is encouraging.

[wleehendrick]

I believe those in California are using a loophole stating that the vehicle is a '60s replica thus it only has to meet '60s emissions standards.

Not so much a loophole, it was specifically written into SB100. In CA, 500 specially constructed vehicles per year are allowed to be registered not having to meet current emissions standards. For a replica, it has the meet emissions of the apparent year of the body (or motor). If it's not a replica, it has to meet emissions requirements from the 1960 model year (basically just a sealed crankcase). In other states, non replicas have a tougher time.

Every state is different, so doing your homework now is smart, so you can plan your build according to your state's requirements. Good luck!

[zivarah]

Thanks to everyone that has chipped in so far.

Welcome to the family. As to your questions, I'd start here:http://www.semasan.com/page.asp?cont...093.1478966452 and check the reg/title instructions for WI. Since that is your State of residence you only have to satisfy those requirements. SEMA has done a great job gathering this information and fighting for us gearheads.

I did look at this link, and it was a good starting point, but unfortunately it really doesn't answer many questions. The relevant part from the SEMA Wisconsin document is:

5. If the vehicle qualifies as a reconstructed or motorized homemade vehicle, the vehicle must pass a safety and equipment inspection with the Wisconsin State Patrol.

But, it just references the same sections that I read through and included in my original post.

As a couple of general points, I would think that power steering pump in good shape implies: "IF" there is a power steering pump.
https://youtu.be/O4JnVBv8ov4?t=40s

I've seen the windshield washer/wiper on several 818c builds, some of them using donor parts.

I'd imagine that most of the mufflers sold in your local autozones/oreilly/DAP/NAPA whatever meet state regs. If performance is an issue, install it with a test pipe so you can remove it when you get to where you're going.

Fair points on the muffler and power steering. Regarding the washer fluid, I'll need to do some more research. My understanding was that the donor parts weren't compatible with the 818C, and you had to purchase the wiper assembly from FFR. Looking at the assembly guide, it doesn't look like that includes washer fluid functionality. That seems to hold true for the 818S, which uses some of the donor components but still doesn't have a washer. If anyone has a build thread that includes wiper/washer info, that would be awesome.

There has to be someone with registration experience in WI.

I would love to think so, but I haven't found a single confirmed instance... I just don't want to purchase until I know for sure.

An S with a top is weather capable

Good to know - thanks!

It is definitely my understanding there is no provision for airbags at all. You take the airbag out of the steering column as part of the construction process. You could call or write IWIRE and get their opinion on what it would cost to put in the electronics for airbags. Even then I do not think anyone had engineered or crash tested this car for there use.

This is a little concerning. This means that the structural integrity of the frame and the seatbelts are the only safety mechanisms. Given that I'll be driving this on public roads and race tracks, I'd definitely want to consider adding airbags just in case. My girlfriend has been very supportive of me throwing all of my money at a kit car, but was not happy to find out that there is no airbag on the passenger side and I don't blame her.
I'm planning to just reuse the wiring harness from the donor vehicle, is it possible to reuse the airbag sensors from the donor as well? The iwire option looks great, but has a huge price tag.

I believe those in California are using a loophole stating that the vehicle is a '60s replica thus it only has to meet '60s emissions standards.

What are they claiming it is a replica of? That would make things easier but I'm curious how they pulled it off.

Really appreciate all the info, guys!

[zivarah]

My longer reply is awaiting mod review. In the meantime, this went through without mod approval:

I did just send an inquiry to the WI DMV, so here's hoping I get some good info from them.

On my 818, I added front and rear bumpers.

Bob - How expensive and difficult was that? How much weight did it add? Did you do some custom fab or did you find some that were pretty plug and play?

[wleehendrick]

What are they claiming it is a replica of? That would make things easier but I'm curious how they pulled it off.

As I posted above, in CA, you don't have to claim it's a replica to get the emissions exemption, but some states have regulations that make it much easier to register a kit car if it is a replica of a vintage auto (apparently those regs were drafted under the assumption that all kit cars are replicas ). There was a thread on here a while ago with suggestion for those trying to claim it as a replica. Your best bet is to search forums for those that have successfully registered a kit car in WI.

[zivarah]

As I posted above, in CA, you don't have to claim it's a replica to get the emissions exemption, but some states have regulations that make it much easier to register a kit car if it is a replica of a vintage auto (apparently those regs were drafted under the assumption that all kit cars are replicas ). There was a thread on here a while ago with suggestion for those trying to claim it as a replica. Your best bet is to search forums for those that have successfully registered a kit car in WI.

Ah, I misunderstood. Thanks for the info. I've done a lot of searching for kit car registration in Wisconsin but tried to focus on 818s, I should try to find other non-replica kits or see if there's any way to claim it as a replica. The search continues...

[turbomacncheese]

I might be mistaken, but I thought AZPete told me he used all donor stuff for the wiper, except the sprayer. Pete? Was I too impressed with the rest of the car to pay full attention to the wipers, or is this how it went?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob - How expensive and difficult was that? How much weight did it add? Did you do some custom fab or did you find some that were pretty plug and play?

We fab up front and rear bumpers. Did not weigh, I suspect about 70 lbs total.
Cost= better front and rear crash protection = PRICELESS.
Cost=my son worked on his welding and painting skills = PRICELESS.

b2.jpg b1.jpg

[STiPWRD]

This is a little concerning. This means that the structural integrity of the frame and the seatbelts are the only safety mechanisms. Given that I'll be driving this on public roads and race tracks, I'd definitely want to consider adding airbags just in case. My girlfriend has been very supportive of me throwing all of my money at a kit car, but was not happy to find out that there is no airbag on the passenger side and I don't blame her.
I'm planning to just reuse the wiring harness from the donor vehicle, is it possible to reuse the airbag sensors from the donor as well? The iwire option looks great, but has a huge price tag.

I wouldn't plan on reusing the donor air bag, to my knowledge no one has implemented an air bag on their 818. People usually don't mess with this sort of thing because the stock harness has multiple crash sensors and the slightest amount of micro voltage, or static shock, can set off the air bag. I'm not sure if anyone offers an aftermarket solution but haven't seen one. Try to think of the 818 as a motorcycle with more protection.

[lance corsi]

I'd be more concerned about entry and exit difficulties if I was you. You can always find a person within the system to help with registration. Most of the regs are for your own safety, and others also. I wouldn't drive one of these cars without adequate safety measures.

[turbomacncheese]

FormatFactory20161117_134635.jpg

There it is, donor setup. Thanks Pete!!