Andrew's MK4 Roadster Build Thread - Apr 11 Update

Christmas in July -

Early this morning Eric from Stewart delivered my MK4 Complete Kit Roadster (1010989RD). See my intro thread https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ngs-From-Idaho for the details of the specification. With my limited help, Eric was able to get the roadster and all 40 supporting boxes unloaded within 45 min. All that was missing was the chrome roll bars (not a surprise give the recent discussions on the forum).

Eric was courteous, careful and thorough and I was very happy with the whole delivery process. I would highly recommend Stewart if you need to have your FFR car delivered.

Some pictures are included below. Next step is inventory of all of the parts. After that the process will be slow until I retire at the end of the year.

Thanks, Andrew

Attachment 202210 Attachment 202212 Attachment 202214 Attachment 202216

It has been a month since I received my roadster. As predicted, between work and looking after my mom who has dementia (my two other siblings and I split time as care givers) limits how much time I have had to work on it.

I have made progress:

a.) Inventory was completed with only a few nuts and bolts missing. It would have been more but, working with Madison at Factory Five (she did an awesome job helping me out), I discovered there were
changes in the fastener pack list between my manual and the current release of the manual. She pointed me to the pdf of the latest rev (5K) and there were some noticeable changes in the list that matched what I received.

b.) I also was able to complete the body buck following the design provided by Jazzman (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-MkIV-Roadster Starting at post #14)
Attachment 203285 Attachment 203287

One question I have is whether I need to add a support brace as shown in yellow in the following picture. I have seen some bucks that have it and some that don't. Any insight would be appreciated.
Attachment 203286

c.) Lastly, I have started work with the UCA taking measurements referencing Jeff Kleiner's photo ( https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...s%97-yes-again post #4 ) and reaching the
expected conclusion that I will also have to trim the adjusting sleeves by 1/4" each side to get the caster set correctly for my power steering implementation. I gave them to a friend who is good friends with a retired machinist who has a lathe in his garage to get them trimmed . I should have them back in a few days. I will re-measure and then decide if I need to trim the bolts.

Hopefully more next month.

Andrew

No need to add that brace to your buck. In truth, they'd be fine just laying on the ground. You'll need to trim the UCA bolts, in addition to the adjuster sleeves.

Greg

Thanks Greg for the insight,

Is there a recommended technique for trimming the UCA bolts to get a clean cut and avoid the risk of damage to the bolt?

Best Regards, Andrew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewIdaho

Thanks Greg for the insight,

Is there a recommended technique for trimming the UCA bolts to get a clean cut and avoid the risk of damage to the bolt?

Best Regards, Andrew

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Honestly, I think folks overthink this. I cut my sleeves and bolts with a hacksaw. It was a 10 minute task:

Attachment 203311

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewIdaho

Is there a recommended technique for trimming the UCA bolts to get a clean cut and avoid the risk of damage to the bolt?

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Cut it with whatever is available.

A bench grinder can clean up the end of the threads, just grind a short 45* taper on the end of the bolt after cutting.

Dremmel will work for this purpose, too, with sufficient time and effort.

I have had more time to work on my roadster and so I have done a trial fit on the front suspension to assess if I need to trim the inner tie rods and to assess if I need the Breeze Offset Rack Mounting Kit before I place my order with Mark Reynolds for a series of items.

The following are pictures of the Driver Side and Passenger Side suspension that are set up as follows:
- Lower Control arms are parallel to 4" Tubes +/- 0.3 Degrees
- Upper Control arms are set per Jeff Kleiner's recommendation I referenced earlier in this thread (I cut the bolts as discussed).
- Bolts are hand tight or snug and are not torqued to spec (so I can disassemble the suspension if I need to trim inner tie rod as well as to install the F panels).
- Outer tie rods are threaded in as far as they can go.
- I centered the rack rotating fully clock wise and the rotating it 1 1/4 counter clockwise to set the center.

Attachment 204127 Attachment 204128

I measured the toe-in of the spindles as referenced to the vertical square tubes
- The driver side has 3/16 toe-in
- The passenger side has 9/16 toe-in

Attachment 204129 Attachment 204130

Assuming that I have not incorrectly assembled something or my measurement setup is incorrect (please let me know if either of these is the case), I conclude:
a.) Given I have toe-in on both sides, I should not have to move the outer tie rods further in and so trimming of the inner tie rods is not needed.
b.) Given that the toe-ins are different between the two sides, the rack is not centered correctly (off by 3/16") and so using the Offset Rack Mounting Kit could be of help to get it centered.

Let me know if I have missed something.

Thanks, Andrew

Hello All,

Sorry for the delay in posting as getting prepped for retirement kept me busy finishing off loose ends and training my replacement. I succeeded and I officially retired on Feb 28,2025 ( 2-3 months later than my goal). During this time I slowly worked on drilling panels and building sub assemblies such as the rear suspension, shocks and rear spindles. Panels to be powder coated are drilled and to be delivered to the PC on April 9 with a one week turnaround. My engine was ordered through Mike Forte (Ford Performance 302 with ProFlow4 EFI and TKX) with delivery requested in the early summer. This last week I worked on assembling the rear suspension to the frame without issue but getting the Driver Side CV Axle installed has me puzzled. I can get it into the differential but there is a 6mm gap vs the recommended 3mm. Below is a picture of where I am at. Is it close enough (other pictures on the forum show similar gaps) or is more persuasion with my 2lb dead blow hammer needed to get it moved in 3mm or do I need a bigger hammer?


Attachment 212058

Thanks for looking.
Best Regards, Andrew

I tapped mine gently with a deadblow. You're gonna love the ProFlo4.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewIdaho

Hello All,

Sorry for the delay in posting as getting prepped for retirement kept me busy finishing off loose ends and training my replacement. I succeeded and I officially retired on Feb 28,2025 ( 2-3 months later than my goal). During this time I slowly worked on drilling panels and building sub assemblies such as the rear suspension, shocks and rear spindles. Panels to be powder coated are drilled and to be delivered to the PC on April 9 with a one week turnaround. My engine was ordered through Mike Forte (Ford Performance 302 with ProFlow4 EFI and TKX) with delivery requested in the early summer. This last week I worked on assembling the rear suspension to the frame without issue but getting the Driver Side CV Axle installed has me puzzled. I can get it into the differential but there is a 6mm gap vs the recommended 3mm. Below is a picture of where I am at. Is it close enough (other pictures on the forum show similar gaps) or is more persuasion with my 2lb dead blow hammer needed to get it moved in 3mm or do I need a bigger hammer?


Attachment 212058

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I think you're good. Mine measures 6mm as well. The small gap between the hub and where the differential starts is roughly 3mm or 1/8", which is what the instructions may be referring to. Just be sure to give each shaft a little tug to ensure that they are locked in.

Thanks for yours and Greg's prompt replies. I tugged on it with all my strength and no movement. I was progressing past gentle blows and decided to stop and ask my question. I will proceed on and get the spindle mounted and then on to the passenger side. My thanks to both of you for your build threads as I am following them regularly and this newbie is learning a lot from them.

Best Regards, Andrew

We have had a cold rainy spell in the Boise area over the last week and so I have had limited garage time. Consequently I have been working on the Fuel System and Power System design so I can source the appropriate components. This post is of the Fuel system design as shown in the attached jpeg:
Attachment 212151

I would welcome critiques, question or suggestions.

Thanks, Andrew

This is the Power system design that I mentioned in my prior post and is shown in the attached jpeg:
Attachment 212152

I have added some additional items that require power over and above the standard items including ProFlow4 EFI, Wilwood Electronic Parking Break, Bluetooth Audio Amp, USB/Phone charger and seat heaters that have influenced the design.

The use of fuses in the alternator circuit that I have seen puzzle me as the fuse rating and wire gauge seem mismatched (e.g. Breeze offering). Insight would be appreciated.

Critiques, questions suggestions are welcome.

Thanks, Andrew

Sleeping on my initial revision, I was not comfortable that the main feed had sufficient current capacity so I did some rough calculations/assumptions and decided to increase the battery feed gauge to 1. Also was not comfortable with gauge transition to starter being unfused so I addressed that. Updated Draft rev is attached:

Attachment 212414

Comments, concerns or questions are welcome.

Thanks Andrew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewIdaho

Sleeping on my initial revision, I was not comfortable that the main feed had sufficient current capacity so I did some rough calculations/assumptions and decided to increase the battery feed gauge to 1. Also was not comfortable with gauge transition to starter being unfused so I addressed that. Updated Draft rev is attached:

Attachment 212414

Comments, concerns or questions are welcome.

Thanks Andrew

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I would not recommend fusing the starter or the feed to the RF block. Not customary to fuse the starter. Questionable whether 150A is enough in some situations, plus potentially a safety issue. You don't want the fuse letting go at a bad time, e.g. in traffic or whatever. I wouldn't do it. As for the RF block, all the those individual circuits are fused. So no reason to have the potential to take out the whole bunch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edwardb

I would not recommend fusing the starter or the feed to the RF block. Not customary to fuse the starter. Questionable whether 150A is enough in some situations, plus potentially a safety issue. You don't want the fuse letting go at a bad time, e.g. in traffic or whatever. I wouldn't do it. As for the RF block, all the those individual circuits are fused. So no reason to have the potential to take out the whole bunch.

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Thanks for the review Paul, I greatly appreciate the insight. I have revised my diagram to remove the fuses, direct connect the starter to the cutoff switch post where the battery connects and updated the starter gauge to match the battery. I have provisionally left the fuse for the new fuse box in case space limitations force me to move the new fuse box to the trunk area. Updated diagram attached.

Attachment 212432


Best Regards, Andrew

I am making progress. The aluminum panels are at the powder coaters and should be back late next week. In the mean time, I have completed the rear suspension and brakes:

Attachment 212533 Attachment 212534

I then started to mount the rear FFR provided hard brake lines between the rear right side and rear left side. In trying to bend the coils I made a mess of things, kinking the line in several places. I have ordered a replacement ni-copp stick from AGS of a shorter length than the 60" provided with the current tube. I plan to run AN-3 bulkhead adapters for the brake and hydraulic clutch lines. So in the interim, to gain experience, I cut the steel tube that was messed up with a pipe cutter (the kind that rotates around) which seemed to go ok. I then tried an AN-3 Flare on the resulting tube segment with a Rigid 377 flaring tool and the following resulted:
Attachment 212535

The edges seemed rough so I thought I did not deburr the pipe sufficiently. So I took more care to debur the end on second piece and it seemed to get better but it still seems a little rough:
Attachment 212536

Is the rough edge from not deburring sufficiently or is there something else that I am doing wrong or is my second example acceptable?

Thanks for looking.

Andrew

Make sure you are lubricating the piece well before flaring. But, that said, Ni-copp is usually not used for a 37 deg single flare. It can be done, but the metal is soft and if the line pushes out it could push thru the ferrule, resulting in a complete failure of the connection. I would recommend a double flare or use Stainless if you are doing bulk head fittings with a single flare.

If you run into an issue with the flares, you can always get the pre-made flared sticks of Poly Armour brake lines at your local Autozone or Advance Auto. Takes a little more planning but I've used them on two builds and they are great quality and bend easily.

AN 37 degree flares should be done in seamless annealed stainless steel tubing. My AN flaring tool has rollers in it for both forming the flare and burnishing it after forming.

https://imperial-tools.com/products/...flaring-tools/

Andrew, if you have already run your fuel system then disregard. My initial layout looked a lot like yours and I slept on it, mocked it up, and decided that there were many, many unneeded components.….it now goes like this: fuel pump -> short line -> fuel filter -> shutoff valve -> pressure regulator (these are all directly attached in series, no hoses/lines). From the pressure regulator there is a 8”-ish return line back to the tank, and then a single line to the engine. The filter, manual shutoff, and pressure regulator are located where I can access them through the fuel pump hatch. I also plan to have a pressure gauge in line under the hood. My goal was to simplify the layout and (mostly) eliminate the return line. (Disclaimer: this is my first build, but I did consult with some forum regulars, and I am remaking that custom bracket)Attachment 212539

Thanks for the review Tango. I see you are running a Coyote and I have seen other posts where others are installing the regulator near the tank as you describe. I will be running a SBF 302 with Edelbrock ProFlow 4 EFI and I have not seen a similar installation for this EFI. Since I am newbie, I am reticent to blaze new ground by installing the regulator near the tank but if others have done this with success with the ProFlo4 I would consider the solution. My fuel system parts are on order but have not yet been installed so it is not to late to change.

Thanks, Andrew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike.Bray

AN 37 degree flares should be done in seamless annealed stainless steel tubing. My AN flaring tool has rollers in it for both forming the flare and burnishing it after forming.

https://imperial-tools.com/products/...flaring-tools/

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by F500guy

Make sure you are lubricating the piece well before flaring. But, that said, Ni-copp is usually not used for a 37 deg single flare. It can be done, but the metal is soft and if the line pushes out it could push thru the ferrule, resulting in a complete failure of the connection. I would recommend a double flare or use Stainless if you are doing bulk head fittings with a single flare.

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Mike and F500guy thanks for the prompt responses and your insight into the use the AN-3 Adapter. As a newbie, I have a series of questions.

1. The second flare attempt on the coated steel line, I did use a lubricant but it was only chassis grease that I have on hand. Is there a preferred lubricant to use?
2. I do not intend to use ni-copp with the 37 degree flare but had intended to use the coated steel lines provided in the kit. Based on your responses, I have the impression that I should only use seamless annealed stainless lines for brake applications. Is this the correct understanding or is using the coated steel lines acceptable? If not why won't the coated steel lines work?
3. If I can only use stainless lines, I believe that this would force me to flare them with an 45degree double flare to interface with the kit provided tees and my reading of forum threads is that creating these double flares in stainless is a major challenge. The reason driving me to use AN-3 fittings is to connect to 90 bulk head fittings in the DS box as I would like a secure mount to the panels and to seal off the DS box as much as possible. I have been unable to find 90 degree bulk head fittings for the double flares and hence the use AN-3 bulk head fittings. Do 90 bulkhead adapters exist for the standard brake line double flares and if so where do I get them?

My thanks for your patience.
Best Regards, Andrew

Well, here is my view:

1) I only use brake fluid for lubrication, grease and oil will leave contamination and you would have to ensure you are cleaning well.
2) There is a reason street cars use bubble and double flairs, IMHO I would only use stainless steel for 37 deg single flair for a street car
3) I am not aware of any that exist, I ran my brake line thru the aluminum panel with a rubber grommet and then back filled with black silicone, there is no leaks there.

I'll add some thoughts.

1) My flaring tool has rollers so no need for any lubrican so I can't comment.

2) Coated steel lines are most likely NOT seamless so these require a 45 degree double flare. For 37 degree AN single flares I'm only familiar with seamless annealed stainless tubing being used.

3) I doubt you'll have much luck trying to double flare stainless lines. I committed to stainless steel tubing and AN fittings many, many years ago when I discovered I did not have the talent to form double flares so I do not have any experience with SAE. With AN fittings I always use bulkhead fittings as it's just good practice. As they say, that's the "right way" to do it. You'll never see a hydraulic line passing though a bulhead without a bulkhead fitting on an airplane, helicopter, or a race car.

Thanks Mike and F500Guy for the additional clarity.

It a shame no one seems to make 45 Degree Bulkhead fittings. I think I might experiment and see how well I do flaring and bending stainless with a 37 degree flare before I give up on the bulkhead fittings. This leads to a few follow up questions:

a.) Do you have a reliable source for the seamless annealed stainless tubing?

b.) Do you use a rotating tube cutter or something like a Dremel cutoff wheel to cut the stainless? (I have both of these but I am not sure if I need another tool.)

c.) How do you interface to the brass 45 degree tee junction where the left and right brake lines meet (is there a 37 degree equivalent or is it a AN-3 bulkhead tee junction)?

Best Regards, Andrew

This might help.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...AN-Brake-Lines

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike.Bray

This might help.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...AN-Brake-Lines

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Thanks Mike! Very helpful- it covered all my questions.

Best Regards, Andrew

The powder coater finished the panels and I picked them up late Tuesday. I was able to get the F-panels and Breeze Battery box mounted and then completed the front suspension. Waiting on a length of Earls 3/16 stainless tubing to arrive so I can try my hand at bending and flaring the stainless. Based on my experience, I will decide how to proceed with the brake lines. While I wait, next steps will be to work on the pedal box and steering system install.

DS Front Suspension: Attachment 212812

PS Front Suspension: Attachment 212813

Battery Box: Attachment 212814

Thanks for looking and comments always appreciated.

Andrew

I made good progress over the last week. I got the Wilwood Front Brakes installed.
Attachment 213115

One challenge was the top front bolts that held the caliper bracket to the spindle were impossible to torque down. I noticed that I had an set of bolts that had not been used nor identified for use that came with the kit in the box associated with the spindles or suspension (not sure which). They were the exact same diameter and thread pitch and just a hair shorter that then ones provide by wilwood.
Attachment 213116

These bolts allowed me to get a socket head socket to fit cleanly and allowed me to torque the bolts to the Wilwood spec.
Attachment 213117

I was also able to get the pedal box installed and adjusted. I have the brake pedal spaced 0.1" away from the cross bar a rest and the clutch pedal at the same height. I have the Breeze accelerator pedal roughly installed pending the install of the Forte throttle linkage.
Attachment 213118 Attachment 213119

I have the firewall and tunnel firewall (with cutoff switch) installed. This allows me to get some reasonable measurements to get the 1Ga battery cables ordered.
Attachment 213120 Attachment 213121

Comments welcome.

Thanks, Andrew

Are you planning on keeping those Wilwood master cylinders with all of the reported failures?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike.Bray

Are you planning on keeping those Wilwood master cylinders with all of the reported failures?

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I have not decided yet. Now that you ask, is the location of the reservoir and output ports the same as the Wilwood or are they in different locations for the Tilton that would impact the routing of brake lines and feed tubing? Do you have a recommended Tilton replacement(s) for my configuration?

Thanks, Andrew

There's quite a bit of good information in this thread.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...for-Wilwood-MC

I used the 76 series with banjo fittings but most are using the 75 series.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike.Bray

There's quite a bit of good information in this thread.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...for-Wilwood-MC

I used the 76 series with banjo fittings but most are using the 75 series.

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Thanks for the reference. I will read through the thread and see if I have questions.

Andrew

Having read through the thread that Mike provided and it's referenced threads and ,over that last day or so thought about what has been shared, I have the following
observations/thoughts:

* Changing the MC once the build is completed: This can be done but it will be a significant challenge (aka a PITA) to get them swapped out as having to access them from the footbox as well as the top access panel.
* Differences between Wilwood and Tilton MC: It appears adapter fittings will be needed to transition between them. (Allocate $50)
* Which Tilton's: The closest match to the Wilwood MC that one would need to order appears to be the TIL-75-750U to replace the 2 brake MCs (3/4 bore) and the TIL-75-813U to replace the Forte clutch MC (13/16 bore).
This does not account for optimizations between front and read brake bore sizes that some but not many have done. This would set one back about $315 + Tax and Shipping
* Wilwood MC Reliability: Many have indicated that over the life of Wilwood MCs being provided by FFR many are happy with the Wilwood MC performance and life and FFR (and Forte) have not seen a need to recall or replaced them. On the other hand, I count about 10 builders in the recent past who have had issues with failures early in the life of MC (out of 2000-3000 kits shipped?). This leads me to conclude that there has been a change to either the design or manufacture of the Wilwood master cylinders in the last few years that has resulted in a degradation in reliability.

My emotional decision given the above: Though I hate to chew up ~$400 of the build budget to replace them, my wife and better half would never forgive me if I had an accident because I prioritized cost over safety. (Though the odds seem to be about 1 in 300, while not quite Russian roulette, this is a much higher risk than we are willing to take.) I will plan to place the order in a day or two, pending any feedback that indicates my analysis and understanding is erroneous.

Thanks, Andrew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewIdaho

This leads me to conclude that there has been a change to either the design or manufacture of the Wilwood master cylinders in the last few years that has resulted in a degradation in reliability.

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That may be true but I had a Wilwood clutch MC fail on me 25+ years ago at about 500 miles. Replaced all of them with Tiltons and then the McLeod HTB failed. Replaced it with a Tilton.

I replaced mine with the 75 series. If I had to do it over I'd go to the 76 series for the banjo fittings. I did use banjos on the pressure side. You just have to pay attention to the length of the banjo bolt so it doesn't bottom out before getting a proper crush on the washers.

Thanks Pat. In looking at your build thread what did you use for hardline and the bulkhead fittings within the foot box?

Best Regards, Andrew

Andrew, the hardline is 3/16 seamless NiCopp. Bulkheads are from Inline Tube. P/N HLF01T. They are 3AN on the footbox side and male inverted flare for 3/16 tube on the engine side. Note that the 3AN will be a 37 degree flare for 3AM ferruled tube nuts, while the IF side is 45 degree double flare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PMD24

Andrew, the hardline is 3/16 seamless NiCopp. Bulkheads are from Inline Tube. P/N HLF01T. They are 3AN on the footbox side and male inverted flare for 3/16 tube on the engine side. Note that the 3AN will be a 37 degree flare for 3AM ferruled tube nuts, while the IF side is 45 degree double flare.

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Hi Pat,

Thanks for the reference to the bulkhead fitting. With respect to the hardline, this newbie is now confused. Earlier in the thread, several forum members indicated I should not use NiCopp for 37 degree flare 3-AN fitting as it may not hold under pressure and I should stick to seamless stainless tubing. Have you experience that seamless NiCopp will work? Also many purveyors of NiCopp don't clearly indicate if their tubing is seamless or not - do you have a reliable source?

My thanks in advance and your patience with my questions as I am trying to learn.

Best Regards, Andrew