To me that's an issue, head bolts should be torqued in three steps in a pattern. Once done no more "snugging".Quote:
Originally Posted by gbranham
Definitely time to figure out what's going on here. Another advantage for studs, if they're short you will see it immediately.
I hear you. Interestingly, Ford's recommended stud kits have an OAL of 4.06" for the lower head studs. That's about an inch and a quarter longer than the bolts I'm using. Something doesn't feel right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike.Bray
I'm using ARP 154-4203 head studs. They worked perfect on my ProMaxx heads.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbranham
I'm curious about this statement Greg :confused: The bottom row of head bolts on a Windsor are not blind, they go all the way through into the water jackets hence the need to use a sealant on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbranham
Jeff
According to Ford's literature, the head bolt bores on a Boss block are blind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner
Ah, Boss block. In that case nevermind---and sorry about your luck :9Quote:
Originally Posted by gbranham
Jeff
Same for Dart blocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbranham
So, despite using the ARP head bolts recommended by TFS, I have a Boss block, which apparently has deeper threads for the head bolts. The threads are not flush with the top of the block. They start deeper in the block. Ford requires M-6065-BOSS head bolts, or M-6014-BOSS head studs. I just ordered them from Summit. I'm guessing all my head bolts (or at least the lower row) are only held in place by a few threads. And I got them all torqued appropriately, in 3 stages, when I assembled my engine. I'm wondering if it's possible to replace the passenger side head bolts with these studs, one at a time. Probably so. The driver's side, I'll obviously have to address the bolt hole I stripped, although I suspect there's plenty of thread left in that hole, as it looks like I only stripped off the top 2 or 3 threads of a bore that's probably over an inch deep, at 13 threads per inch.
Sigh...
gbranham -
Which head gaskets did you use? I used the recommend gaskets from my Speed Shop and they leaked when I filled the engine with coolant the first time. There are particular head gaskets you need with the Boss Block. Anyway I missed the note and ended up reinstalling both heads with the correct gasket. The water jackets around the cylinders are bigger requiring the different gaskets.
* Requires head gaskets M-6051-CP331 or S331
The Boss 427 requires head gasket M-6051-R351. That's the one I used.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrglaeser
As one last follow-up, I found some 1/2"-13 threaded rod in the shop, and ran it into the bore in question. Fortunately, I ran right in without catching, and I easily had an inch or an inch and a half of thread engagement. The total length from bottom of bore to top of head face was right at 3 inches; my current head bolt UHL is 2.4". No way that was going to work. When I get my new fasteners, I'm going to run one in there, torque it, and see if it leaks. If it doesn't, I'll have dodged a huge bullet, and I'll replace the rest of the head bolts one at a time. If it still leaks, well, we know what's next.
Ironically, I went through this nightmare on my first build, but for different reasons. It was a budget build, and I reused the stock 302 TTY bolts, not knowing they were one-time use. Blew my head gaskets in 11 miles. This time, I only have 5 miles on the car. LOL. Gotta love this hobby.
Right - I honestly didn't start reading from the beginning of the thread. I have Boss 347 Short Block from Ford Performance and it had similar requirement of longer head bolts, but also the standard performance head gaskets don't work either which is the gotcha I ran into. So just thought I would throw it out there as you have to get in there anyway. But looks like you have it covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbranham
You can absolutely replace the head bolts one at a time. I would probably start in the center and work my way out like the normal torque pattern.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbranham
That blows but not all that bad in the grad scheme of things. Sounds like you worked out root cause. Just the worst feeling going backwards. I ask all my techs whenever they have a miss "what did you learn today". The mistake is only a problem if the answer is nothing.
Personally I have never learned anything of value by getting it right the first time. You will be up and running in no time.
Thanks, Jesse. I'm in the IT biz, and I preach root cause analysis in the wake of a problem. The root cause here is that I didn't realize the Boss block needs longer head bolts. Live and learn. Worst case is a new head gasket and a new set of intake manifold gaskets, and a few hours of wrench-turning. Oh, and new fluids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzboy54
I went through the same thing but I was fortunate that I started with head studs. So when I threaded the studs into the block I found that they were about 3/4 of an inch short. I dug around on the Internet for quite a while trying to figure out what was going on and that information was nonexistent to me. I ended up calling ARP and the tech support gentleman on the phone was quick to tell me that the head stud kit that I needed was actually for a FE engine. So I ordered that kit and it worked perfect. If you want to replace the head bolts, you can use the Ford part number or get a head bolt kit for a Ford FE engine and that should fix your issue.
Ah yes, the 5 whys to get to the root cause. Very familiar in the HR world.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbranham
Are those burn outs on your garage floor?
Hah! Yes, from my Z06, some 4 wheelers, and a scooter. Teenagers...Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunter
I'm happy (and extremely relieved) to report that I've dodged a huge bullet with my head bolt faux pas. I received my new FMS head bolts (they're actually ARP bolts, direct from FMS), and they are indeed about 3/4" longer than what I was using. I've swapped out all the bolts on the driver's side head, torqued and reassembled. Fired right up, and I let it come up to temp. No leaks from the rear corner of the head. Whew! I did notice that when I was removing the old head bolts one at a time, replacing with new bolts as I went, in proper torque sequence, the upper rearmost head bolt under the valve cover was probably only torqued to 30 ft-lbs. Not sure why what was; maybe I simply missed torquing that bolt fully when I built the engine, but I can't imagine I did. Maybe because it was only engaging a few threads, and due to replacing the bolt right below it with a proper length bolt, torqued to 100 ft-lbs, the top one was no longer tight. Either way, all's well so far, and I'm going to move on to dropping the body on this weekend temporarily, to temporarily install the front splash guards and to rough-align the sidepipes with the body cutouts. I'll then remove the body and fab up some additional support hangers above the exhaust ball joint, as demonstrated here several times on the forum. After that, I'll get it off to alignment, then drop the body on for hopefully the last time until I get it to that dude in Bloomington, Indiana, hopefully later this year when he's got time for me.
That leak was a blessing in disguise. I would've otherwise not realized I had the wrong head bolts until later, with a painted body and truly blown head gaskets.
Whew!
Greg
That's great news!!!
Good to hear this issue worked out well for you.
Pat
Fantastic!
Sometimes I wonder how my roadster would have ended up without some random search, problem, or investigation. Part of the journey!
Just catching up on your build after taking some time away from my own project and forum. I'm so glad you had that leak! Imagine finding out the hard way that your head bolts were too short! Certainly sounds like a blessing in disguise and I'm happy it seems to be a fairly easy fix at this point. Wow. Kind of sucks, but I also think you got all the luck on your side this time!
I love that e-brake setup. I might look into that for mine. I'll just have to ask Gordon if it will fit in 15" wheels...not many things do, it seems.
I took the day off yesterday, so I had some great shop time, prepping for the body installation. I got the drop-trunk trimmed out with some angle aluminum, fabricated some additional exhaust hangers to help support the exhaust ball joint, and my Amazon friends brought me a cargo net for the rear cockpit wall. Solid day in the shop.
Greg
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And today was the day for body installation! Thanks to forum members kirby (Don) and TrackDay17 (Greg), we got the body on quickly. I had the sidepipes mounted, and that proved to be problematic, so we removed them. It dropped on pretty easily. Don helped with some 3/4" rubber stock to lift the nose of the car where it sits on the 3/4" tubes. I can tell this will help align the hood and hood hinge better. We dismantled my body buck and loaded into Greg's truck...always a good feeling to pass that on to the next guy. He'll soon order a MkV, and I'm excited to help him with his build. After the guys left, I hooked up all my lighting. I had to install the 4 diodes in the front turn signals, per Mark Reynolds (Breeze) instructions, since I have his LED headlight and turn signal package. Simple 20 minute project. I then moved on to rough-cutting the sidepipe cutouts that seem to be so difficult. Mine were off by quite a bit, but I used a 4" cutoff wheel on my battery-powered Ryobi, and made quick work of it. I used a Dremel to radius the corners. It's not perfect, but Kleiner will massage it when he works his magic. Anyway...great day in the shop. Cold, blustery, cloudy day in KC (45 degrees), but the trees and grass are waking up. It's nice to see some green!
Greg
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Looking good Greg! Nice to see it coming together!
Now we’re cookin’
Badass!
There ya' go! :)
Jeff
Always happy to help!!! I wish I could take credit for the 3/4" rubber trick but I am pretty sure I stole that from Jeff and if not it was from another awesome forum member!
It was nice to meet Trackday17 Greg too!! Can't wait to see an mkv close up
Nice to meet you too ! I'll have to check out your Coyote build as that's what I'm planning on.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirby
I'm going to finish up a couple of projects around here this summer and then hopefully order the car later summer or early fall so I've got a good winter project.
Greg, thanks for the invite, I always get my fever built back up after seeing your car and how nice the quality of your build is.
Thanks for the body buck, I'll be sure to pass it off to another builder when I'm done with it.
Looking good Greg!
A few more pics after rollbar and quickjack rough-in.
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Representin'...
Attachment 212319
A bit more rough-in.
Greg
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Congrats! Big milestone.
Pat
Man, even in gel coat these cars get your blood pumping.
Congratulations! Looks fantastic.