Rob T's 818R Build Thread

Hi: Here is my best lap from Carolina Motorsports Park on 02/01/20. This was my first time to this track, the first time back on track in over 14 months (move and retirement) and I had just bedded brakes. On top of that, it was my first day with the new 6 speed. The reverse lockout was bypassed, making it easy to over-travel to fifth, making fifth hard to find. I am working on a fix for that. As always, I have a lot to learn about track driving, but had a really good time. Mostly great to be back on the track with a running car.

https://youtu.be/VdBqn7Z93wo

Hi Rob,
I didn't realize you moved from NM. I guess I won't be seeing you at Sandia Speedway anytime soon!
Enjoy your retirement and the track time.

I have been busy the last few weeks, off and on, designing and building a reverse lockout for my 6MT that I could operate from the driver's seat. Let me start by saying that I am no "Mechie" and I am in awe of his (and other's) machining skills. I built this with normal shop tools (welder, drill press, grinder, etc.) with things laying around AND my McMaster account. I did not want to change my k-tuned shifter.

Issue: There is a reverse lockout on the 6MT. If it is left "unlocked", I found it very difficult to find fifth gear on the track. When "locked" the shifter moves easily to 5th. Disclaimer: This has been tested on my trailer and I am waiting for my next track session, but there is a huge difference.

Information: The lockout mechanism in the transmission is rotary. It has multiple locations as it moves where it is either locked or unlocked. This turned out to be advantage.

Design Criteria:
1) I wanted to be able to actuate it while strapped into my car in case I needed reverse on the track.
2) I wanted the "fail" position to be no reverse, so that it could not stop working on the track
3) If I could get "mechanical stops" at the ends of travel that corresponded to the "lock" and "unlock" rotary positions, that would be great.

Solution: Using a 6mm rod end and a 6mm ball joint I built an arm to move the rotary lever. The ball joint is attached to the lever. That lever pivots around an axle with carbon fiber impregnated PEEK washers on a repurposed bolt so that the lever can be moved up and down. The other end of the lever is connected to a ball joint welded to a repurposed bike cable clamp, which connects to a locking t-handle cable control mounted in the cockpit (I used another bike brake piece to allow for cable adjustment, a split collar and a thick bushing to guide the cable. The bracket mounted to the transmission (M8 bolts with washer shims behind the plate) blocks the arm exactly at the position needed to allow reverse and the cable was adjusted so that when it is fully extended (handle all the way in) the arm is in the lockout position.

Here are some pictures. I am sure there are other solutions to this problem.

Attachment 123351
Attachment 123352
Attachment 123353Attachment 123354

What's that they say about necessity mothering invention? :)

Nice.

The cable is probably tight and won't walk it's way out, but that's the sort of thing that always wigs me out when I do something like this. You might want to consider a small/simple safety strap that holds the handle fully depressed even under high-vibration (i.e. track) conditions. Just a thought.

Can you post bigger pictures? Since I don’t have 6MT I’m trying to figure out what you did and it’s all so tiny.

Santiago: The cool think about the cable I found is that it locks in any and every position. Move it where you want it, twist it 90 degrees - locked. It's pretty slick. Another factor for "fail safe" is the spring on the transmission arm pulls the cable....so the cable vibrates/moves naturally toward the full "closed" position. I had the same concerns. I spent a lot of time at the back of the car scratching my head and trying stuff.

Here is an attempt at some larger pictures.Attachment 123413Attachment 123414Attachment 123415Attachment 123416

Much larger, thanks. Looks very creative, good work.

I got to the track yesterday! Carolina Motorsports Park open for a Turn one track day. I ran in the solo group. There were about 7 cars. There was also a super solo and open wheel group. I ran three sessions before packing up. I was watching the weather forecast and some big thunderstorms were building. I have an open trailer and a two hour drive. Interestingly, the sky opened less than two minutes after I got the car safely back in the garage. It rained buckets. Also, my house had a "near" lightening strike. It popped about 7 breakers and shorted one wire inside a switch. Crazy.

Back to the track day. 3 twenty minute sessions. I had new Hoosiers on. Car ran awesome. Reverse lockout worked great for finding 5th gear. Ambient temp 70-80F. Water temp was 190-195. Oil temp hit 240 as I drove harder, but stayed there. AWIC - 100 - 105. I drove the car as hard as I have ever driven it.

Videos to follow when I have a chance to get them done. Also some more stats.

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Originally Posted by Rob T

Videos to follow when I have a chance to get them done. Also some more stats.

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Can't wait ... I'm dying here waiting for New York to open up and get back on track. Until then I will live vicariously through you!

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Originally Posted by Rob T

Ambient temp 70-80F. Water temp was 190-195. Oil temp hit 240 as I drove harder, but stayed there. AWIC - 100 - 105. I drove the car as hard as I have ever driven it.

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You Awic Temperature. Was that the air temperature going through the throttle body?

Bob: Great question. I did a little more digging. I saved two datalogs from the Cobb unit.

In session 3, the average intake temp (according to Cobb) was 102.7F The max I saw was 109. This was over 16,454 points logged during the session. I did a quick scan of MAP and saw boost numbers as high as 18.4psi for brief periods. There was absolutely no issues with knock or knock adjustments in the datalog. I am running Speed Density tune.

If anyone is interested, let me know, and I will send the Cobb Datalog. I would appreciate any insight.

Here are some "teaser" stats from my GPS/accelerometer based Tracqmate data logger. These are all Maximums for session 3
Max speed: 110.7
Max braking (g) 0.92
Max acceleration (g) 0.77
Max Right Turn (g) 1.37 - remember new Hoosiers
Max Left Turn (g) 1.61
HP 235
TQ 398 ft-lb - this is a calculated value. The previous session was 324 - no idea on accuracy, but fun to report anyway.

Hey Rob, I love numbers, keep them coming.
The reason I ask about IAT (intake air Temp) is because I' think about moving my sensor. Right now I'm in the stock location(right after air filter). I want to move it to after the intercooler. Attached are my numbers on one lap around NCM. (Mitch's Track)
Attachment 128920

Here are a couple of Laps from Carolina Motorsports Park on Friday 5/22. I still have a lot to learn, but that doesn't mean I didn't have fun.

https://youtu.be/bhLvFV-YEJc

Rob,

I know you switched to 6 speed, do you know what ratios are in the unit Wayne instlled?

Rob T's 818R Speed v Gear v RPM Calcs

Tire: Hoosier 245:40:17
Tire Circumference 24.3
Revs per mile 855
Final Drive Ratio 3.9
2,000 3,000 4,000 5,000 6,000 6,500 7,000
Ratio MPH
First 3.636 10 15 20 25 30 32 35
Second 2.375 15 23 30 38 45 49 53
Third 1.761 20 31 41 51 61 66 72
Fourth 1.346 27 40 53 67 80 87 94
Fifth 1.036 35 52 69 87 104 113 122
Sixth 0.842 43 64 85 107 128 139 150

Formatting is not pretty, but you get the idea.....

Rob

Can I get more details on the level on the transmission itself? I only have manipulated it on the lift with someone trying to shift the transmission. I noticed it has a pin hole lineup in the relaxed or closed but it seeems to have to go about 20degs. past the second hole alignment. Are u saying it needs to be moved twice while trying to get into reverse? Or will one motion of the lever allow reverse to be selected?

Thanks Ed

I went to the track on 6/5. It was a good day, but by the end of the second session, I was suffering low oil pressure after the car was warm. My oil pressure was 50psi or so when running 4 - 5k rpm. 20psi at idle. I added a quart of oil for the third session and all was good in the pit. 85psi at start up. After two laps the oil temp went from 120F to 260F and pressure was low. I pulled off and went home. After thinking about this, and talking with Mitch, Gator and Phil at Element Tuning, and doing a little investigation, I believe my problem was a collapsing suction hose from the dry sump tank to the OEM pump. I was able to flatten this -12 braided line with my thumb and forefinger at room temperature. I think this line was heating up and getting softer. At speed, the OEM pump is drawing about 10gpm through this line. A "cold" line would be more stiff. A warm/hot line at 4,000-5,000 rpm is a different story.

I also went back and looked carefully at my videos from many previous track days. This issue was happening, to a lesser extent, any time the oil got above 220F. Not that this is a high oil temp, but I think the hose has been getting progressively worse. The car always had 90+ psi on cold starts and was always good everywhere but at the track.

Fearing the worst, I drained the oil yesterday and cut open the filter. Luckily, no evidence of any metal or bearing wear. I was pretty watchful of the pressure, always, and always came off the track when I noticed something amiss.

I have ordered a new, vacuum rated hosed, and will be installing that soon. Fingers crossed that this solves the issue. I won't know for certain until I get to the track again, but this makes sense. Phil at Element confirmed that they have had experience with collapsing feed hoses that exhibit this kind of issue.

Also, I tried some new Federal 100 tread wear tires that I got from Phil's tire service. Early impressions are really good. Purchased, installed and balanced for under $800.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob T

I believe my problem was a collapsing suction hose from the dry sump tank to the OEM pump. I was able to flatten this -12 braided line with my thumb and forefinger at room temperature. I think this line was heating up and getting softer. At speed, the OEM pump is drawing about 10gpm through this line. A "cold" line would be more stiff. A warm/hot line at 4,000-5,000 rpm is a different story....
I have ordered a new, vacuum rated hosed, and will be installing that soon. Fingers crossed that this solves the issue. I won't know for certain until I get to the track again, but this makes sense. Phil at Element confirmed that they have had experience with collapsing feed hoses that exhibit this kind of issue. ...

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There is this Stainless Steel Inner Hose Support Coil
Obviously it adds a restriction.

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Originally Posted by Scargo

There is this Stainless Steel Inner Hose Support Coil
Obviously it adds a restriction.

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Rob, You need to read this, Chad was chasing this problem for months. All three oil line connecting to the dry sump plate are under vacuum and subject to collapsing under heat.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post209432

I use metal tubing for my scavenge lines and internal spring support in the hose from the oil tank.
Bob

Thanks, Bob. I remembered about the springs in the return lines. Not in the suction line to the OEM pump. Phil at Element told me they have had instances of the coils "laying down" and also collapsing. That is why he recommend the Aeroquip AQP hose that is rated for 28 inches of vacuum.

Thanks for the advice. I'll take another look at the suction lines for the return.

Also, I tried some new Federal 100 tread wear tires that I got from Phil's tire service. Early impressions are really good. Purchased, installed and balanced for under $800.[/QUOTE]


Hey Rob

What Federal tires did you run? I have been running their 595RS-R tires for years now and they have been great tires. I have found now that I am pushing the car harder they seem to give up at the limit and plan to try a set of TOYO R888R’s once I get the car back together. I would be very curious about how you felt about the tires with a 100 tread wear and that price they might be another option for me to try.

Federal FZ-201M 100 treadwear. Phil's Tire Service. I put 255 17's on the back and 235 17's on the front. Almost exactly matched the Hoosiers I was running ( 245's back, 225's front). I think the tires felt great. I was a second faster than the last time I was there on new Hoosiers, but I suspect that is me getting more comfortable with the car and the track, not so much the tires. I felt they communicated well, also. Nothing unexpected.

Update on the Oil System:

Yesterday I built the new suction hose using Aeroquip AQP hose and installed it. Put oil in and fired up the car. 85psi at cold start. Ran the car until it was warm (in the garage). Got the water temp to 200F and the oil to about 180 (enough for the oil cooler fans to come on). When hot the idle pressure stayed at 50psi. At 3000 rpm, the oil pressure was 85 - 90 psi or better. I have never seen these kind of good pressures before. I suspect the collapsing hose was a factor for a while. I don't remember if I changed the hose when I redid the system in 2017. Here are some pictures of the old hose and the new hose. You can see the additional braid in the new hose.

Attachment 129994Attachment 129995

No comparison in those two lines. Glad you solved it!

A big thanks again for having me over to chat and look at the car. I very much look forward to meeting some of the others as well.

Glad that's doing it for you. For others who experience this problem, XRP ProPLUS Xtreme race hose is another alternative I ran into at PRI a couple years ago. It's smooth bore on the interior and PTFE (so it will clean out when you fill it with glitter) but has a stainless wire woven into the external convolutions to prevent collapse under vacuum. It's what we are running from the dry sump plate to the suction stages and from the oil tank back to the suction stage of the pressure side of the dry sump pump. I bought mine from ANPlumbing.com (not a paid spokesman -- I wish I were!) and their customer service on it was just outstanding. They take online orders but are better if you work with them on the phone. Cheers.

A big "thank you" to Mitch Wright for the support he gave me while I was visiting NCM Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. He helped/showed me how to do the alignment. We adjusted ride height and put the car on the scales. We then did some excellent exercises to help my braking, heel/to and cornering. A couple of lead follow sessions followed by....rain on Friday. All in, it was a great experience from a great teacher with deep experience.

Pushing hard on the track, I can confidently say the oil pressure issues are solved. Had 85psi at speed under all conditions. Even with 90F ambient temps, the highest I saw on the coolant temp was 200F. 240 on the oil at the end of a session. Temp after the intercooler was 106 when I glanced at it and the supply to the intercooler averaged 101 with a max of 107 near the very end of the session. I wasn't logging the intake temp on the Cobb unit, but that is where I read the 106, pretty consistently.

I have new corner weight numbers now that the 6 speed is in. With me in the car and 17.5 gallons of fuel.. LF 463, RF 467, LR 743, RR 702, total 2375.

Ride height was changed also. LF 3 7/8, RF 3 13/16, LF 4 1/8, RR 4 1/8. Thanks again Mitch!

NCM is an awesome track, with great facilities and an excellent staff. By far the most technical track I have been on.

I'll update the Post your Weights thread with your numbers. Did you check your tranny temps?

And I think you mean LR here: LF 4 1/8

Gator: Correct - left rear. With everything going on, I did not get a chance to check my temps. I am confident that they were mid 200's again. I did check them after cool down and getting a tank of gas....they were about 175 after about 30 minutes. I am going ahead with the cooler for now. I have all the parts and will be working on it before my next track day in September.

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Originally Posted by Rob T

Gator: Correct - left rear. With everything going on, I did not get a chance to check my temps. I am confident that they were mid 200's again. I did check them after cool down and getting a tank of gas....they were about 175 after about 30 minutes. I am going ahead with the cooler for now. I have all the parts and will be working on it before my next track day in September.

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Are you going back to NCM. These pictures are in the sink hole turn. Attachment 132142 Attachment 132143

For Reference, Here is our temp and pressure data log running 2.5L forester stock tune at NCM.
Attachment 132144
This was on the full coarse. I think is was me drive, my son 10 seconds faster. This is the second hot lap of a session. oil up to 200f and coolant 190f. top speed about 125. peak boost around 12.5.

FYI: this data recorded using my BTSSM phone app.

Attachment 134372
Attachment 134373

Pictures are not great, but here is my water version of a 6MT trans cooler. Right now, the ball valve is fully open. This allows some water to the cooler, but most will bypass. If temps stay in line, I can slowly close ball valve and put more liquid through the trans cooler, but the system can never be totally blocked. The coolest water goes to the intercooler first. I have Temp sensor in the AWIC line just before the intercooler, one in the transmission fluid going to the cooler, and another sensor measuring air temp after the intercooler.

I am interested to see how it works and if your intercooler temps are effected. When is your next track day?

Next track day is September 11 at the newly resurfaced Carolina Motorsports Park. This will be my first trip to my “home” track since I was at NCM with Mitch who helped me do a full alignment, ride height adjustment and corner balance. Also, at his suggestion, I have taken my wing to zero degrees. I still will get downforce, but this should help some with acceleration (less drag)

Rob with the 1/2 inch wicker you have on your wing it will be doing it's job and a good place to start.

Looking forward to hearing what you think about the new pavement at CMP.

Hey Rob, those hoses black with yellow circle stripes, where did you get them?

Frank: I am not sure. That was flexible ducting that Chad had in the car. It supplies air from the side scoops to the oil cooler, which is mounted in the rear of the car and visible in the pictures. It is like flexible dryer duct. Try Summit Racing Brake Duct Hose. It looks close to what I have.

Tnx Rob! That's what I was looking for, plenty of choices I didn't think about Summit. :)

They have become one of my favorite "candy stores" lately. Super fast shipping, lots of stuff. Sometimes a bit hard to find things if you don't know exactly what you are looking for or what it is called.