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I am curious what you used for a base? I found getting it positioned and secured on the end of the crank was the most difficult part of the operation and I went through two trying to find one that wasn't designed by the Frustrated and Worthless Engineering dept.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnK
you’re right, the magnetic base was a large part of my original frustration. I ended up using a Noga DG1033 base from Amazon.
Here is my whole thread regarding dial, indicating my bell housing.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ignment-please
Hey John. Good to hear from you. I hope all is well with you and yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnK
Your bell housing alignment thread is gold. Just what I needed to get my head on straight. Given this is the first time I've used a dial indicator, and first time mating bell housing to the motor, prudence says I shouldn't add another unknown to the equation. Now that I know, I'd be second guessing my readings if I bought the cheapest model.
P.S. I'm still holding out hope to someday see a "JohnK's Coupe Build Thread".
Hey Chris, all good here! I hope you're also doing well. Your build is coming along beautifully.
You're right that this is one of those tools that will be seldom used, but buying a cheap one is problematic. If you want to PM me your address, I'm happy to ship you my dial indicator and base for you to use.
Not saying no to a coupe build somewhere down the road, but for the moment I've gone deeeeeeeep down the rabbit hole of tracking a Porsche Cayman so for now I live vicariously through and others here on awesome FFR builds. :p
Thanks, John. Tracking a Porsche Cayman? Wow! Very cool.
That's a very generous offer on your dial indicator. I just might take you up on it. Thank you! (I think I still have your number, so will send over my info with a text). Would love to see a picture or two of your Cayman tracking. That sounds like a blast.
It seemed wrong to cover up the powder coat, but it must be done. I'm not expecting any measurable sound improvement, but the heat control alone is worth it IMHO. However, I think there is a small argument for sound improvement as it does change the tinny aluminum to a more solid sounding panel.
I had previously started in the footboxes. Finished those, including the bottom side of the top panels. I painted those black--don't want the shiny foil smiling at me if my head finds itself in the footbox.
Next up was the floor of the cockpit. I kept the seams tight, and layered HVAC foil tape over them. I'm using Thermo Tec again--it performed well in my MK4. They changed the labeling from blue to black for the last couple of rolls I bought. Visible on the rear outside corner panel in the picture below. I don't know if they changed the formula, but the newer black labeled stuff seems a little softer. Speaking of the outside corner panels, I made the decision to install now. Hopefully, those ears won't fight me too much when I'm putting the body on/off.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...6&d=1757428884
Here's the left side of the cockpit. The Thermo Tec nicely seals the small holes where panels come together. For the larger gaps, like around the seatbelt anchors, I will be using Dynatron, a 3M marine grade product that builder JohnK turned me on to last time. Great stuff! Can be used on larger gaps, retains some flexibility, and is paintable. Comes in a caulk tube. It's not cheap (nothing is!), but one tube will be more than enough for all the gaps in the cockpit and footboxes.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...3&d=1757428884
I also put a layer along the firewall. One nice thing I discovered is it's much easier to remove it from the powder coated panels than it was from the raw aluminum. Bonus, as I'll undoubtedly need to pull some back for various wiring/modules.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...5&d=1757428884
Thankfully, I was able to install most of the FB insulation with the panels on the work bench by first tracing the chassis members to serve as the borders.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...4&d=1757428884
I also assembled the trunk box and layered in the insulation. Taking advantage of the momentum, I layered over the front and rear hatch floor panels. At this point, I'd say my panel insulation is ~95% complete. That's okay by me, as I'm ready to move on to something different.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...2&d=1757428884
Some of the builders I admire use spray-on for insulation instead of the adhesive matting. From an installation standpoint, after doing this now a second time I can see why. In fact, after seeing 8SecDuster's underbody application of Lizard Skin, I'm now planning to use their ceramic coating for my underbody coating. I was already planning to undercoat the entire body and nose, so why not get some heat benefit as well? Their marketing video of the ice cube on the griddle is quite impressive. I'm hoping their two gallon bucket will be enough. I'll find out when I tackle that one next year.
Weight penalty: I estimate the Thermo Tec will add up to 45 lbs. As best I can tell the 3'x5' rolls weigh about 7 lbs, and I'll be well into my sixth roll when I'm done. Good news: the HP to weight ratio will still be more than enough for my use.
Nice, clean work, Chris.
Looks good Chris!
2 gallon's of their CI will cover the underside of the body no problem.
Looking good Chris. I also precut my pieces for the foot boxes, which, although it is more of one kind of work, eliminated the other kind of work where I am upside down, stuffed into a space I am not meant to go in. I am a couple of months behind you but looking forward to installing all those panels as well. I did finally break down and buy the Milwaukee rivet tool after fighting it off for 9 months. I now understand why it is so popular.
Agreed on avoiding as much of the FB contortionist fun as possible. I hear you on the rivet gun; it's not an immaterial amount to spend on a tool. One unexpected benefit I found is it frees up one hand, especially when pulling stainless rivets (if you're using those). An extra hand has been pretty helpful at times.
Hey Bud … Mark here … I am in the process of figuring out what parts to order for my T-56 trans … could you please provide me the part #s for the clutch ,hydraulic throw out bearing ,pilot bearing and flywheel from McLeod …thanks in advanced … btw I have a gen4x Coyote as well
Best regards
Mark
Mark - if you do a search of the forum there is a fairly recent thread (in the last 3 or 4 months) that delineates all of these items.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugnut Mark
I think this is it:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...T56-Parts-list
A tip for those that haven't seen how to use Google to search these forums. Use the following syntax in your Google search bar:
site:thefactoryfiveforum.com <search terms>
Example: site:thefactoryfiveforum.com T-56 clutch
Search results:
https://www.google.com/search?q=site...hrome&ie=UTF-8
I appreciate Tim and Papa chiming in. Thanks, Gents!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugnut Mark
Mark, I went a different route and ordered a package deal for the trans, which takes some of the compatibility guess work out of it for me. I also got a very fair price (and military discount - if that applies to you). If you're still interested in the T-56 kit I ordered with all the goodies, send me a PM and I'll send it over to you.
Thank you gentleman I appreciate all the help … I found the part #s that I needed .
With the DS front/inside panels installed, I turned to filling and bleeding the brake system. Last time, I waited until after drivetrain and electrical were pretty much done (procrastination!). This time, I figured it will be easier to replace a line now before the drivetrain and electrical are in the way if I have a leaker.
During my MK4 build a few years ago, local builder Jim F. showed me the ropes of bleeding brakes. He brought over his Motive power bleeder setup that worked really slick (thanks again, Jim!). So, I picked up their Model 0100 - European Bleeder. It comes with the cap that screws on to the F5 reservoirs. I also picked up their 1810 Catch Bottle (holds about 1 pint). Useful as a siphon if the reservoirs get too full. This setup enables me to do it solo. Good.
- Test for air leaks: It’s recommended to first test the setup before adding fluid to verify the pump setup, which I did. However, after 400+ pumps yielding <5 PSI, I gave up and filled the reservoir. It still took a lot of pumps (200+), but pressure eventually built up to 15 PSI. I assumed this was due to the relatively large volume of air in the empty tank compounded by the miniscule amount of air the pump moves. A poorly installed pinch clamp on the output spout of the pump didn’t help (replaced it). I chuckled to myself (I do that a lot), because neither the instructions I read on the Motive web site, nor their instructional video mentioned the crossfit-style forearm workout coming my way. No harm, because I can use the exercise.
- Valvoline DOT 3&4 synthetic brake fluid. It only took about 18 oz combined (including a little spillage) to fill the front and rear systems. However, I bought two quarts (64 oz) in order to keep enough fluid in the pump as the catch bottle filled.
- Fill reservoirs about half full: a good starting point. Any fuller and the fluid will be at the brim after the bleeding cycle, and require siphoning.
- Wilwood’s instructions: they say to only bled from the top bleed screws. (My front Superlite calipers have top and bottom bleed screws). I started with the outers, followed by the inners, i.e. PS outer, then PS inner, etc.
- I wasn’t expecting (or didn’t remember) pockets of air in the tube between the pump and the reservoir. This is normal.
- Tap the calipers: As the fluid flowed, I gently tapped the calipers with a rubber mallet to jar loose any trapped air bubbles. Pretty sure I read this somewhere, but don't recall the source.
- Results: brake pedal is firm and the system is leak free. I bled all four corners three times. However, I initially found one leak at the T-junction in the front lines. But, after a few rounds of tightening-->re-testing, I believe I have it resolved. I test for leaks using a series of panic-stop level pedal engagement, followed by holding a long/firm press for a minute.
With the brakes bled and the wheels off, figured I’d be slick and torque the axle nuts. Nope. I could only get 98 lb ft while before the rotor starts to move. The additional 45 degrees will have to wait until the e-brakes are installed.
Here's my setup with the Motive power bleeder. I haven't bled brakes by another method, so can't compare. But, I will say if this knuckledragger can bleed brakes with this setup, it must be pretty fool proof and efficient.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...3&d=1758573993
I routed the reservoir to MC hoses through the existing clutch hole.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...9&d=1758573761
Here's a closer view of the hoses and the small panel I made.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...8&d=1758573761
I also did some more panel work:
- Fixed my Whoops! of the missing top panel in the radiator tunnel.
- Fitted/drilled the hatch side panels.
- And little panels that cover the square holes around the rear shock mounts.
Thankfully, the SS rivets didn't fight me too much as I drilled them out in order to slip in the missing top panel. Phew!
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...4&d=1758574054
View of left side panel in the hatch.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...1&d=1758573993
Really glad to see F5 provides cover panels for the large rectangular opening in the hatch side panels around the shock mounts.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...2&d=1758573993
My next (and hopefully final!) powder coat batch is filling up.
Congrats on bleeding the brakes and being leak-free. That's a big milestone. I absolutely love my Motive Power Bleeder. It makes a PITA job much less of a PITA.
Great progress, Chris.
Looking good! Brakes are coming up for me soon, this will be really helpful. Thanks.
Man... It's looking good Chris!
Like Brent, bleeding brakes is in the very near future for me as well.
I have an old Phoenix Bleeded that I seem to fight with every time I use it. So this looks like a good upgrade.
Thanks for posting.
Thanks, John. I am so relieved. I've been wondering, "Are my flares good enough?" As long as that front T-junction remains dry, I'll be happy. This is another low-use tool, but well worth it given the price point. And, it has application to other vehicles as well. I think they offer many cap styles to fit various reservoirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnK
Thanks, Dave! So glad no one but me knows how long I spent on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa
Thanks, Brent. I don't know how you have any time for your build with all those amazing Coupe and MK5 solutions you've been pumping out. I will be reaching out on a few of them as I get closer.Quote:
Originally Posted by burchfieldb
Thanks, Mike! It feels really good to hit this milestone. Brake lines are a handful for me. If I had to buy a bleeder tool again, I wouldn't hesitate to pick up the Motive.Quote:
Originally Posted by 8secDuster
Yeah, there is no time at the moment to work on the coupe. Although as I get more stuff done, it knocks it off my to do list.
Chris - well done putting this task behind you and being leak free. I have a question unrelated to the brakes but something I have been scratching my head about for a bit. In the first picture of your most recent post I can see the Factory Five logo bracket on your PS footbox. I have looked at this piece of hardware for the last 7 months wondering where it goes but assumed it would pop up along the way, which it really has not.
I made a maximum effort a couple of days ago to actually find out what it is for. I went through my inventory page by page, reviewed the Coyote install documents and slowly came to the understanding it might be the bracket to mount the Control Pack fuse box. Then I see your post, and there it is, sitting up on the footbox, exactly where FF recommends mounting the thing. So, can you please confirm this is what it is and then I can quickly lose it again for a month or two?
Yes, you got it, Tim. That's the bracket for the Coyote power distribution block. I mounted it in the same location on my MK4 build. It makes the PDB accessible, plus I know the harness will reach that location no problem.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...8&d=1758810188
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...9&d=1758810188
Thanks for the confirmation Chris, looks good.
Super clean Chris. Looking very sharp.
The next major task on my list is mating the T-56 to the motor. As a first timer, I’m bouncing between multiple sources of info. to get everything put together, and in the right order (hopefully).
Pilot bearing (PBF-M7600B): Following the transmission supplier’s instructions, I was told it would be flush with the face of the crank. Not so. I drove it in most of the way with a rubber mallet and socket, but a steel hammer was needed for it to fully seat. It sits proud of the crank face by about 5/64”. But after comparing to a couple other Coyote builders, I think I’m okay. I’ll probably measure for input shaft clearance just to be sure.
Motor mounts: they need to be installed so I can set the motor in my DIY wood cradle (reusing from last build). And the motor needs to be in the cradle, so I can mount the bellhousing backplate, flywheel, etc. Sequence.
- Motor mounts are straight forward enough, but mine needed a little extra attention. After assembling them, I noticed the ˝ inch spacers--supplied by F5 and required for the Coyote–didn’t sit flush against the mount housings. Taking them back apart, I discovered the welds of the M14 stud and adjacent locating pin were interfering with the spacers.
So, I ground down the spots on the spacers where they were making contact. Then painted the exposed metal. Then back together and installed on the motor.
Here you can see where I had to grind the 1/2 inch spacer. I think this one is for the left motor mount. They're not side specific, except for the weld interference points were unique.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...0&d=1759679195
Grinding went pretty quick, thanks to the 18” bandfile sander I picked up last Christmas with a gift card. Handy little tool.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...6&d=1759679294
I have the motor nestled in a DIY wood cradle where it will sit until the T-56 is mated and, ultimately, until I'm ready to install the drivetrain. I got this idea from Edwardb. Works great! You can also see the rubber dust cover/plug in the lower left of the picture. (It's listed by F5 in their Coyote fitment manual).
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...4&d=1759706179
This view of the cradle makes it more obvious why I needed to put the motor mounts on now.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...2&d=1759679195
Quicktime bellhousing trim: It’s been well documented the bellhousing and backplate will protrude below the chassis for Coyote builds. Definitely easier to trim these now. I used my little portable-bandsaw-that-could. Basically, the trimming eliminates the bottom most three holes of the bellhousing and backplate. The cut piece is 1.125” at the center. I cleaned up the cut with a flap disc and painted the exposed steel on the bellhousing.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...3&d=1759679195
Clutch pins: I was wondering about the three pins that came with the flywheel. Turns out these are used to locate the clutch pressure plate on the flywheel (red arrows). Almost missed them. (My oversight: they’re clearly shown in the F5 manual). Also, the bottom trimming of the backing plate is visible.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...5&d=1759706179
Tremec still offers a free shift ball (black or white) if you register your transmission. I did, and this just came in the mail. It includes a variety of threaded inserts to fit various thread sizes/pitches.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...5&d=1759679255
Oh, and not part of the trans install, but wanted to mention I put the steering back in place. But before I did, I put Loctite blue on the small metric screws that help keep the u-joints in place. Could be done later, but why not now when it's disassembled and on the workbench?
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...2&d=1759708389
So, I'm moving on to the next step of indexing the Quicktime bellhousing. It comes with a couple fastener packs. The fasteners for the bell to engine block are M10-1.5 (5 ea), and 3/8"-16 x 2" (2 ea). Right away, the 3/8" SAE hardware seems out of place on an engine block with metric threaded holes. They are supposed to thread into the dowl pin holes. SAE bolts don't seem right, but I figure Quicktime knows what they're doing, plus the Gen4x Coyote was released over a year ago.
I tried threading them in by hand. They thread in easily about 5-7 full turns before resisting. Then I tried a M10-1.5 by hand. It will thread in without resistance, but seems a little loose. Measuring the difference with my caliper between M10 and 3/8" is less than 0.5mm, so they're close.
I called my transmission supplier, but they didn't have the answer. Next, I called Quicktime (a Holley company). After about 30 minutes on the phone, they decided to ship me the "correct" fasteners. They're coming to me via UPS, but I don't have the details on what they're sending. If I were a betting man, I'd wager they're shipping M10-1.5 x 50mm (2 ea) with the special "washer".
Two 3/8" bolts with special washers and M10 below.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...4&d=1759945325
Nice write up Chris. You answered some questions for me and most importantly, reminded me to register my transmission for my free shift ball. You confirmed where I should cut the bell housing and shield so that's on the list. I think your blue Loctite idea is spot on. Can't hurt on such a critical item.
I haven't opened my Quicktime box yet but now you have me curious. I am getting used to the SAE/Metric boogie Detroit has engaged in but it does seem a little funny they would be mixed on an item like the bellhousing. Interested to see what Holley actually ships you.
I think I am going to leave my engine on the stand it came with since I put casters on it and I will just bolt on the motor mounts while it's dangling from the cherry picker. Your progress looks great but I am gaining a little ground now that summer is over!
That's funny. I've definitely been doing the boogie on these builds, which is why I'm so hesitant to torque these two bolts until I'm certain.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWTim
Having the motor on casters has been really helpful, as my garage space is at a premium. For quite some time I had it on this cart which I made from pieces of the motor crate. But no way to proceed with the trans install until it's off this Ford engine stand. Good incentive for me to get the drivetrain installed!
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...1&d=1759963335
Wow, you're way more sophisticated than I am. I just bolted casters to the metal stand and called it good. Based on the giant valvetrain, I am always afraid it might tip over so I roll it very carefully. I have a mini cart for the tail of the transmission for when I bolt it up.
Quick update on my bellhousing fastener issue: I’m still awaiting fasteners from Holley. Many (most?) car items take a week (or more!) to reach me here in the northwest. In the meantime, I’ve become convinced the threads in the dowel holes are M10-1.5. I had a short one in my goodie stash, and installed it on the bell, slowly increasing torque until I reached 40 lb ft. There was no feedback like it was cross threading. Good. This is logical to me since all the other holes are metric (M10-1.5). I may pick up a couple Grade 8 equivalent locally at the correct length (50 mm) just so I can finish the trans install.
Now to tackle the bell indexing (AKA runout, alignment, concentricity, or ??). I watched a number of videos, and studied the instructions that came with my T-56 kit. Settling on the latter, it was much more straightforward than I expected--see video link below. This is one of those times my mind inflated the level of difficulty of something I’ve never tried before. Happens a lot with me.
Here are the steps I followed:
- Starting point: Choose any location as the zero/starting point. Ensure the plunger has ample travel in both directions (in/out), so it never loses contact with the surface of the index plate. I positioned the plunger perpendicular, and centered it on the lip of the gauge plate.
- Verify indicator setup: Rotate motor a full revolution around to ensure dial returns to zero. Clockwise if viewed from front; dial rotates counter clockwise viewing from rear. This ensures dial setup is solid (i.e. measurements are repeatable).
** Sidenote: on my MK4 build with Gen 3 Coyote, I had a question about which way the motor turns (CW or CCW). I wanted to spin my power steering pump in the normal direction to bleed out the system. Well, with a plastic bag over the air intake on the Gen 4, rotating the motor clockwise (looking from the front), pulls air in (plastic bag flexes inward). Go figure.- Measure max positive: Starting at my zero mark, rotate the motor a complete revolution and find the most positive value (ignore negative values). Max positive being distance plunger extends outward. Mark this location on the gauge plate, +0.0045 in my case.
- Measure total runout: Reset indicator to “zero”, then rotate motor 180 deg. This measurement is total indicated runout (0.004 in my case). Divide this number in half (0.002). If the number is negative, the bell will need to move down. Point the offset dowel pins in the same direction (parallel) as the most positive position noted above. The Tremec spec is <0.005 runout, so I’m well within tolerance. Wahoo! My hat is off to Ford and Holley for their precision. From what I’ve read about removing the Coyote dowel pins, I wanted to swap them out about as much as I’d like to spend the weekend waiting in line at the DMV.
A big Thank You to fellow forum member JohnK for lending me his dial indicator and magnetic base. If I were to buy a set, I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase the same. I also appreciated his bell runout thread. He documents the highs and lows of the process, including swapping out the Coyote dowel pins: Double-check my bellhousing alignment please
Zero mark is my arbitrary starting point (six o'clock). The +4.5 is the max positive reading (about one o'clock). The other black mark is 180 deg. CCW past max positive, and represents total runout of 0.004 (about 7 o'clock). Dividing that in half gives me 0.002, well within Tremec's spec. Phew!
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...2&d=1760202104
TREMEC Tech- Bellhousing Runout Alignment – The Easy Way
https://youtu.be/fu9bg-fJdnc?si=U60xdQrIMGAntWS6
I welcome feedback from the forum on my setup and approach. I used the flat of the flywheel v. positioning the mag base at the center, which would have meant removing at least four flywheel bolts. I've seen it done both ways. Any concerns?
Chris - nice write up and congrats on a successful indexing. I have only done this with an LS and TKO so the Coyote/Quicktime will be new to me as well. I too am regularly afflicted with paralysis through analysis. I don't believe it matters where the magnet resides as long as the indicator is somewhat centered in the opening and can maintain contact with the rim.
Final update on the bell to block fastener mystery. The replacement fasteners arrived today from Quicktime (Holley). They sent me an entire new fastener pack. Sure enough, the bolts for the dowel pin holes are M10-1.5 x 50mm (Class 12.9 - Grade 8 equivalent). How did they include the oddball 3/8"-16 bolts in my original box? That will remain a mystery. But, I'm thankful patience prevailed, and I didn't damage those threads! Something to be aware of for Coyote builders who are installing the Quicktime RM-8080 bellhousing.
Chris - I just installed my pilot bearing today and although mine is an M-7600-C, it also protrudes a bit. I am sure it is seated against the end of the crank but to be sure I called Ford Performance. Apparently the newer style pilot bearings (M-7600 A,B and C) are all a stepped design to prevent over driving during install. It is normal for the bearing surface to be proud of the end of the crank. I tried to measure mine with digital calipers and came up with 3/32nds, so close to what you found.Quote:
Originally Posted by 460.465USMC
Nice work Chris! I'm glad the dial indicator worked out for you. I definitely hear you on the "analysis paralysis" part. I can't tell you how many times I watched 10 hours of YT videos before doing a 1 hour task. :p
Chris - I thought you would appreciate this. The inside of my Quicktime box looked like a hardware yardsale:
Attachment 220307
The guy at the end of the Quicktime assembly line just tosses in a handful from the odds-and-ends jar before closing up the box
Btw, I heard Quicktime is hiring in the their QC department
Ah, good to know. Thanks for the confirmation. If you would have said yours sits flush, that would have been a head-scratcher. One thing I forgot to do is put the bearing in the freezer before install. Should have done that with the pressure plate locating pins as well. Oh, well, they're in now and hope I don't have to remove them anytime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWTim
Thanks, John. Sounds like I'm in good company! My fear is jumping into a task like, "Ready. Fire. Aim!". I can hear it now, the fly on my garage wall giving play-by-play commentary as he watches me prep to start the bell indexing task: "Ready. Aim...Aim...Aim...Aim...Aim...Aim...Aim...Fire!".Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnK
Oh, my! Funny, not funny! I hope you got the right fasteners? To be honest, it almost looked like my box had been opened prior to me. However, the fasteners were at least in a sealed plastic bag.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWTim
Too funny, Jim!Quote:
Originally Posted by JimStone