Plavan's 818R Build Thread

Chad, I like the oil tank wrapped in reflective tape, but don't see the point of the header wrap as installed. Remember the three methods of heat transfer: diffusion, convection, radiation. The reflective tape is great for blocking radiant heat from IR sources in the engine bay. The header wrap could act as an insulator to diffusion through the tank mount or an additional convection barrier under the reflective tape, but as it is installed I see it working as a blanket that prevents the reflective tape from doing its job and helping the tank retain heat once it has it.

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Originally Posted by Frank818

Where exactly (or what brand) did you get your reflective fiberglass tape from? I found a few similar items on ebay (even one to 1800F if you really need overkill :)), but not sure I found the one you are using. And I know you are using great stuff, race proven, so I know for me, on the road, it would be a great choice.

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It was probably the same stuff- 1100 constant, 1800F for a short time. Amazon.com. I ordered coming home from the track on Friday night, they delivered it on Sunday!

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Originally Posted by Aero STI

Chad, I like the oil tank wrapped in reflective tape, but don't see the point of the header wrap as installed. Remember the three methods of heat transfer: diffusion, convection, radiation. The reflective tape is great for blocking radiant heat from IR sources in the engine bay. The header wrap could act as an insulator to diffusion through the tank mount or an additional convection barrier under the reflective tape, but as it is installed I see it working as a blanket that prevents the reflective tape from doing its job and helping the tank retain heat once it has it.

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Hmmmm. I was wondering that when I was putting it on. I was listening to someone else. I may remove the wrap then.

You really need a wrap that has air bubbles/space.

http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/au...ermal-barriers

Just curious... Have you actually measured the ambient temperature in the engine bay at various points?

Also, why not build some sort of icebox to surround the oil tank?

As mentioned, ideally you want a first layer of insulation with dead air space, this will limit heat transfer via conduction and convection. Then a top reflective layer to limit radiant transfer. The reflective foil doesn't provide much/any thermal resistance, and to be effective at limiting radiant heat it needs to be on top.

Did you put a down payment on a GT4 yet?

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Originally Posted by wleehendrick

As mentioned, ideally you want a first layer of insulation with dead air space, this will limit heat transfer via conduction and convection. Then a top reflective layer to limit radiant transfer. The reflective foil doesn't provide much/any thermal resistance, and to be effective at limiting radiant heat it needs to be on top.

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Yes, I'm taking off the header wrap and leaving the Fiberglass reflective tape. The fiberglass portion of the tape helps that heat barrier insulation, while the reflective portion says "Get the F away radiant heat". (My Layman terms)

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Originally Posted by longislandwrx

Did you put a down payment on a GT4 yet?

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I would of loved to, but this 818R is draining me dry!

I might actually sell the Spyder. My wife says we have too many cars...... Then I can go back to restoring the 1972 numbers matching 911 once the darn 818R is working correctly.

Isn't your 818 already faster than a GT4 on the track?

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Originally Posted by Hindsight

Isn't your 818 already faster than a GT4 on the track?

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for the first 6 laps ;)

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Originally Posted by C.Plavan

My wife says we have too many cars......

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There's no such thing... Just a lack of parking spots!

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Originally Posted by longislandwrx

for the first 6 laps ;)

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Bahahahahahaha. So true.

The race track is supposed to be over 100 degree's this weekend. True test.....

Chad, where in the oil path are you measuring oil temp?

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Originally Posted by Wayne Presley

Chad, where in the oil path are you measuring oil temp?

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From the rear port on the engine.

I can feel engine performance suffer once over 245 degrees. That's when I back off and start cooling it down. Feels like bearing clearance starts getting tight. Scary.

I wonder if the clearance is the cause and not the result.

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Originally Posted by D Clary

I wonder if the clearance is the cause and not the result.

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But I can run it for a long time at 220-230 degrees no problem. Once it gets higher, it seems to compound. Maybe I should run a lighter oil than 15w -50. I don't know, but I will know on Friday if any of these fixes will work.

The engine shop that I use and is used by several Subaru Race teams here in the NW say that the Subaru engines have too tight tolerance and they have to open up the tolerances, this has worked well for the race teams here in the NW especially for the rally teams that are running long durations at high revs, the temps come down quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by C.Plavan

From the rear port on the engine.

I can feel engine performance suffer once over 245 degrees. That's when I back off and start cooling it down. Feels like bearing clearance starts getting tight. Scary.

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So that's after the cooler and into the oil galley correct?

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Originally Posted by Wayne Presley

So that's after the cooler and into the oil galley correct?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by C.Plavan

But I can run it for a long time at 220-230 degrees no problem. Once it gets higher, it seems to compound. Maybe I should run a lighter oil than 15w -50. I don't know, but I will know on Friday if any of these fixes will work.

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I am curious why you are running 15w-50? I thought that was mostly for older V8's. Did you ever try the spec 0w-20 or 5w-30 synthetic?

From http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-104/ :
"I truly believe that oil is much better being too thin than too thick. Over the years we have been going to thinner and thinner oils despite hotter engines with turbos and the like. The tendency is that people figure they need a 40 grade oils but then use a 50 instead. Better thinking is that if you think you need a 40, use a 30 grade oil instead. I firmly believe this based on all I know about oils."

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Originally Posted by dirty kurty

I am curious why you are running 15w-50? I thought that was mostly for older V8's. Did you ever try the spec 0w-20 or 5w-30 synthetic?

From http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-104/ :
"I truly believe that oil is much better being too thin than too thick. Over the years we have been going to thinner and thinner oils despite hotter engines with turbos and the like. The tendency is that people figure they need a 40 grade oils but then use a 50 instead. Better thinking is that if you think you need a 40, use a 30 grade oil instead. I firmly believe this based on all I know about oils."

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Because Racecar.

Although I may go 40W

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Originally Posted by dirty kurty

I am curious why you are running 15w-50? I thought that was mostly for older V8's. Did you ever try the spec 0w-20 or 5w-30 synthetic?

From http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-104/ :
"I truly believe that oil is much better being too thin than too thick. Over the years we have been going to thinner and thinner oils despite hotter engines with turbos and the like. The tendency is that people figure they need a 40 grade oils but then use a 50 instead. Better thinking is that if you think you need a 40, use a 30 grade oil instead. I firmly believe this based on all I know about oils."

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You have to consider the oil temps in order to have the right viscosity at normal running conditions in race applications, especially on motors with high bearing loads.

Fast forward to the 35 second mark. hahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcQe7xTCXHg

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Originally Posted by FFRSpec72

The engine shop that I use and is used by several Subaru Race teams here in the NW say that the Subaru engines have too tight tolerance and they have to open up the tolerances, this has worked well for the race teams here in the NW especially for the rally teams that are running long durations at high revs, the temps come down quite a bit.

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I did just this from my experience with these engines, the piston clearances are too tight from factory and leaning towards the outer limits of the specs is the way to go to control heat and help preserve ring lands and heads. normal driving there fine, racing no.

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Originally Posted by Mechie3

Fast forward to the 35 second mark. hahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcQe7xTCXHg

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Classic

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Originally Posted by metalmaker12

I did just this from my experience with these engines, the piston clearances are too tight from factory and leaning towards the outer limits of the specs is the way to go to control heat and help preserve ring lands and heads. normal driving there fine, racing no.

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I thought the factory pistons in the EJ engines were cast and expand less - that's why their piston to bore clearances were so tight. Most people that race swap for forged pistons, which expand more, right? I measured my clearances with forged JE pistons around 0.0035-0.0037 if I recall.

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Originally Posted by Mechie3

Fast forward to the 35 second mark. hahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcQe7xTCXHg

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Nice!

So using what it says on the fill cap and going synthetic is good or bad?

I do have a case of Joe Gibbs LS30 I could start using on the next oil change.

FYI- I have Forged pistons

I just spent almost a full 45 min talking with Phil @ Element Tuning.

He made me feel better. He said the factory ECU could be cutting in once I get around 250/260 and pulling timing. He says that could be loss in performance I feel. He says its most likely not an oil/bearing/clearance issue since I cut open my filters and they were perfectly clean.

Here are a few key "Nuggets" we talked about. (TRACK CARS ONLY)
1. Do not run a oil under 50wt on the race track in a purpose built track/race car. Especially in my hotter environment (over 100 degrees at the race track this weekend). The oil is like water at the higher temps we see. He suggested Redline 50wt, but the Mobil 1 15/50 is good also.

2. The oil pressure is the key to the EJ motors- On the track, you do not want to see anything under 60psi- or motor will be going quick (Bearing skimming). Between 70-80psi is ideal.

3. Dump the OEM subaru oil filters and use a OEM BRZ oil filter (Or Fram Extra Guard). They are a little bigger and should fit fine with stock headers. When they blew 3 motors while racing (before their Dry Sump kit) the regular oil filter did not catch crap. When they had the BRZ oil filter and the motor went, it caught everything.

4. He says the area I'm pulling my oil temp from on the block is perfectly fine. No issues.

I'm going to test this Friday before the race (104 degrees!!!), and if I am having major issues, I will have them use my race funds for another future race.


Hump block off fully compete:
http://i.imgur.com/e60nGaKl.jpg

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Originally Posted by C.Plavan

FYI- I have Forged pistons

I just spent almost a full 45 min talking with Phil @ Element Tuning.

He made me feel better. He said the factory ECU could be cutting in once I get around 250/260 and pulling timing. He says that could be loss in performance I feel. He says its most likely not an oil/bearing/clearance issue since I cut open my filters and they were perfectly clean.

Here are a few key "Nuggets" we talked about. (TRACK CARS ONLY)
1. Do not run a oil under 50wt on the race track in a purpose built track/race car. Especially in my hotter environment (over 100 degrees at the race track this weekend). The oil is like water at the higher temps we see. He suggested Redline 50wt, but the Mobil 1 15/50 is good also.

2. The oil pressure is the key to the EJ motors- On the track, you do not want to see anything under 60psi- or motor will be going quick (Bearing skimming). Between 70-80psi is ideal.

3. Dump the OEM subaru oil filters and use a OEM BRZ oil filter (Or Fram Extra Guard). They are a little bigger and should fit fine with stock headers. When they blew 3 motors while racing (before their Dry Sump kit) the regular oil filter did not catch crap. When they had the BRZ oil filter and the motor went, it caught everything.

4. He says the area I'm pulling my oil temp from on the block is perfectly fine. No issues.

I'm going to test this Friday before the race (104 degrees!!!), and if I am having major issues, I will have them use my race funds for another future race.

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Great information Chad,
The factory ECU doesn't know the oil temp. Only water temp is an input.
Is it possible that coolant is also going up?
Bob

Thx for sharing the info!

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Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy

Great information Chad,
The factory ECU doesn't know the oil temp. Only water temp is an input.
Is it possible that coolant is also going up?
Bob

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No you are right- he was thinking the ecu might think it is knocking. Coolant is fine.

The "best" oil usually degenerates into an endless discussion. But I'll add a couple of comments about Mobil1.
A lot of people are haters on Mobil1. A lot of that may stem from the new Mobil1 standard GF-5 oil. What folks miss out on is the same criticisms are true for ALL GF-5 oils. That criticism is the lack of zinc and phosphous. Again, all GF-5 oils have lost their zinc, it's part of the GF-5 standard. I know one turbo rebuilder who swears the lack of zinc in the new GF-5 oils is why he sees so many shaft failures.

I have used Mobil1 Racing 0W-30. It has a butt load of zinc and phosphorus. It has outstanding high temperature characteristics. It has no detergents because it's the real race stuff you change after every race weekend. Do not use in a DD!
The downside is the cheapest you will find it is $20 per quart . And it's not at any regular autoparts stores. Amazon is best.

Based on the above I may go to Mobil1 Racing 0W-50. Same chock full of zinc and phosphorus. Same great full on racing oil as the above. It too is crazy expensive.

In the meantime I think Mobil1 European Car 0W-40 is a good compromise. Not GF-5. 25% more of zinc and phosphorus. Detergents. Specified by BMW and many other European car makers. And at Walmart it's on sale for $23 in 5 quart jugs. Mobil1 5W-50 is probably even better but it's almost twice as expensive and hard to find, $53 for 6 quart box on Amazon. Still a lot cheaper than the full on Racing oil.

Here's a pdf summary: https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us...ecs-guide.ashx

Here's the website with all the extra info: https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1

A little additional info: My Corvette C6 Z06 specifies Mobil1 5W-30 GF-5. However I was at the race track this weekend and talking with a C7 Corvette owner. The C7 still specifies Mobil1 5W-30 for daily driving, but the owners manual now specifies Mobil 1 15W-50 for Track days. "Chevrolet recommends Mobil 1 5W-30 for service-fill oil changes and Mobil 1 15W-50 for track events and competitive driving."

My experience with my STi track car: I run 5-30 Royal Purple XPR in the spring, when days may not get to 60 and tires have trouble getting up to temp. Otherwise I run 10-40 but I do not track my car in July and August. I agree with Sgt Gator and I hope we do not get into that quagmire of a discussion.
I have a factory short block with CP fully coated, forged, 8.2:1 compression pistons and 11mm oil pump. 395 WHP/393 TQ, 7,200 red-line @24PSI. This is with the external, K&N HP 3001 filter, Setrab #50-640-7612 (12.99" X 12.20"X 40 row) oil cooler and thermostatic valve. Nine quarts of oil. All this I've mentioned here in the forum quite a bit. It's on its third season and showing no signs of tiring.
FYI: yesterday's track temp was 77 and my oil and water temps did not get past 200. I hit the rev limiter all the time because Thompson is mostly a third gear track.

I was just on the phone with Gary of Larry's Auto Machine, AKA Larry's Power" in CT. Kenny Carlson is a respected machinist and Subaru engine builder for them. For my 818R destroker motor they are using close to factory rod and crank tolerances since the engine will only make 270 at the rear wheels of the 818.
I agree with everything Phil @ Element Tuning says about building a big, bad-*** Time Attack motor. Mostly, we are not building those kinds of motors. I will probably stick with the 10-40 oil for this new motor.
As an aside: Late last year a racing buddy had a long-block built by FlatIrons Tuning in Boulder, CO. It has blow-by like a mo-fo. It's doing OK. Runs like stink (meaning as powerful as mine) on premium pump gas, but he has lots of trouble keeping oil in the motor. He's about to put a KB oil control valve on his car. Got it at the Wicked Big Meet. The bottom line, I think, is that the rings were not gapped properly.
#2 aside: I am talking to a company that makes heat exchanger piping, similar to home heating copper hydronics tubing. I should have a quote shortly for two, 4-1/2 foot lengths of finned, 3/4" aluminum tubing with turbulators. The fins are flat, so that air channeled past the tubes will carry heat away fairly efficiently.

Still getting too hot. Granted it's 100 degrees, I got 11 laps in a single session before I pulled off. I then removed the rear trunk lid. That did not help.
I'm getting tired of this car.

Are you running a built, rebuilt, or straight donor motor?

how hot,oil temp or water? Did you try taking the bell pan off under the motor?

The guys who rebuilt my motor deleted the oil cooler. I don't remember their reasoning.

The cooler is a heater as well. It uses 190f coolant to cool the oil, which is good for a dd but not a race car. It also helps to get oil up to temp faster in a dd.

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Originally Posted by C.Plavan

FYI- I have Forged pistons
I just spent almost a full 45 min talking with Phil @ Element Tuning.
He made me feel better. He said the factory ECU could be cutting in once I get around 250/260 and pulling timing. He says that could be loss in performance I feel. He says its most likely not an oil/bearing/clearance issue since I cut open my filters and they were perfectly clean.

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Indeed Phil has had a lot of track time with his cars, and has seen most of the major failure areas. Are you datalogging stuff from the ECU when you are on track? If not, that would be a very very good idea... even just logging the knock correction and dynamic advance (plus RPM, abs pressure, etc). One of the keys to keeping EJs alive is to watch for knock events. If you get enough knock to pull the DAM down, you will certainly feel that.

Jeff