the coyote continues to bite... resolved! :)

Sorry to hear all your problems with the Coyote. I have a Gen 3 which we did an HP tune on the dyno. It has a couple funny things go on once in a while. Did you take it to the guy you referenced on your post from 10/26 ? Don't want to add to the confusion, but after working on heavy equipment all my life and especially the later machines with electronics I found many times the old adage K.I.S.S. keep it simple stupid. You get so many things going you have to go back to square 1 start there and eliminate as you go. I'm curious if your tuner guy was any help before I say any more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Al_C

OK, got me there. My bad. I guess I didn't think that one through. I'd still like to evacuate the fuel rail to ensure there's no blockage, but I stand corrected on the vacuum.

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I was thinking about this factor earlier and failed to mention that most often the smallest crossection will clog most readilly, like the injector orfice.
Facing a similar SBC challenge I plumbed the injectors out of the engine to witness fuel spray. Yeah that can be dangerous too. In that case one or two injectors sprayed properly but 6, 7 and 8 simultaniously only dribbled.
In the case of VVT one might assume failure goes to default, or low speed, but not high RPM position. It should still idle normally.
jim

Can you remove the temp sensor and keep it from reading the engine is warm, closed loop?
If it tells the ECU the engine is cold, maybe it will keep running open loop and run good.
This should give some kind of path to pursue.

i think railroads has a good idea it certainly wouldn't hurt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Railroad

Can you remove the temp sensor and keep it from reading the engine is warm, closed loop?
If it tells the ECU the engine is cold, maybe it will keep running open loop and run good.
This should give some kind of path to pursue.

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that's an interesting test for sure, we're grasping at straws about it being a 'temp' thing - the engine surely doesn't come up to temp in under a minute, but the head/plugs/coils can warm up pretty quickly (anything near the combustion chamber)

just tested a cold start today, the car has sat for 2 days (was travelling this weekend) and fired up cold on the driver side - so it's not a water-temp issue, but something (who knows what) will let the engine fire up on both banks 'sometimes' - problem is we cannot determine yet what is causing that. maybe I'll try disconnecting the battery for 30 minutes to see if something is stored in the system to clear it out

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J R Jones

I was thinking about this factor earlier and failed to mention that most often the smallest crossection will clog most readilly, like the injector orfice.
Facing a similar SBC challenge I plumbed the injectors out of the engine to witness fuel spray. Yeah that can be dangerous too. In that case one or two injectors sprayed properly but 6, 7 and 8 simultaniously only dribbled.
In the case of VVT one might assume failure goes to default, or low speed, but not high RPM position. It should still idle normally.
jim

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definitely haven't done any flow testing on the injectors - the injector electrics do show that they're 'firing' with a noid light, but that's just showing circuit flow, not fuel flow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jryasko

Sorry to hear all your problems with the Coyote. I have a Gen 3 which we did an HP tune on the dyno. It has a couple funny things go on once in a while. Did you take it to the guy you referenced on your post from 10/26 ? Don't want to add to the confusion, but after working on heavy equipment all my life and especially the later machines with electronics I found many times the old adage K.I.S.S. keep it simple stupid. You get so many things going you have to go back to square 1 start there and eliminate as you go. I'm curious if your tuner guy was any help before I say any more.

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I haven't taken it to Shaun at AED yet, Ford called me today and trying to figure out some next steps. I agree, KISS is the model to go at this point. I have a new LUND tune but won't install it as I need to keep things as 'basic' as possible...

I did pull the DTCs today and got the expected

P2008 Intake Manifold Runner Control Circuit/Open
P2017 Intake Manifold Runner Position Sensor/Switch Circuit High
P2022 Intake Manifold Runner Position Sensor/Switch Circuit High


curious why I don't get a P2011 Intake Manifold Runner Control Circuit/Open ??

https://i.ibb.co/PDgCmqk/image-1.png

Ford wants to ask LUND to record every possible variable they can in HP tuner. It would be good to see injector duty cycle & the O2 signals along with whatever codes it’s reporting.

this means I'll have to flash the ECU

edit - I can log without the Lund Tune - sent off to Ford and Lund with a ton of data

from Lund:

:( The issue is present on the stock tune as well. afr bank2 pegged max lean reading on AFR.
log is only showing codes related to the IMRC stuff.
But it is clearly still having some sort of an issue with the o2 circuit.
I hate chasing wires but may need to be done on this. Sorry for the delay we are at an event this week



I'm stumped, we've replaced the engine harness, o2 harness, bank2 plugs, and bank2 o2 sensor - not sure what else would make the bank2 peg max lean... bad injectors? bad MAF? no codes other than the remove IMRCs (which is expected)

Hey Todd. So sorry to hear that you're still dealing with this. What a bummer. I have nothing of any real value to offer, other than one suggestion which sounds absurdly simple but hey, sometimes it's that stuff that's so simple that we overlook. Have you checked all the pins on those two big connectors that plug into the ECU? I'd check for loose/bent/corroded pins and also check in the female ends with a flashlight and magnifying glass to see if there's any debris in there that might be preventing good contact. Just grasping at straws, but it's always the ridiculously simple things like that that bite me in the butt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnK

Hey Todd. So sorry to hear that you're still dealing with this. What a bummer. I have nothing of any real value to offer, other than one suggestion which sounds absurdly simple but hey, sometimes it's that stuff that's so simple that we overlook. Have you checked all the pins on those two big connectors that plug into the ECU? I'd check for loose/bent/corroded pins and also check in the female ends with a flashlight and magnifying glass to see if there's any debris in there that might be preventing good contact. Just grasping at straws, but it's always the ridiculously simple things like that that bite me in the butt.

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yeah, I can check the new ECU, but the original one had all good pins - will verify the pins again...

Lund even recommended this... (reading a log from the stock Ford tune)
MAF and rest of the logs all look to be fine. I don't have Hz in this log but # per min is reading fine so that looks fine. just the AFR reading on bank 2 o2 sensor.
I would check for continuity on all the pins for the o2 sensor on the engine harness side next.

IMHO it has to be something absurdly stupid simple at this point that we're overlooking, or worst case something mechanical that isn't visible

Would you be able to hear an exhaust leak. If one exist upstream of the O2 sensor it can corrupt the reading.

OK, so not the engine harness nor PCM as they have been replaced. One can suggest the problem has to be from the PCM on to isolate the one bank.
So to me, stop looking at the electrical. I would plug the fuel rail and check for obstructions. Next I would pull the intake and check for obstructions and operation of the CMCV vanes.
You only need spark, air, and fuel. I think you have spark covered. Time to confirm air and fuel are getting to the cylinders on the offending bank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Railroad

Would you be able to hear an exhaust leak. If one exist upstream of the O2 sensor it can corrupt the reading.

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will double check the bolts, may have worked loose

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan_C

OK, so not the engine harness nor PCM as they have been replaced. One can suggest the problem has to be from the PCM on to isolate the one bank.
So to me, stop looking at the electrical. I would plug the fuel rail and check for obstructions. Next I would pull the intake and check for obstructions and operation of the CMCV vanes.
You only need spark, air, and fuel. I think you have spark covered. Time to confirm air and fuel are getting to the cylinders on the offending bank.

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what still has me on the electrical path is that bank two is running fully lean, according to the logs, even though we’ve replaced the transmission harness which has the O2 sensors built-in. We’ve tested both sets and I’ve swapped out the O2 sensor as well. Think the log wouldn’t lie showing that it’s always pegged lean on B2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toadster

what still has me on the electrical path is that bank two is running fully lean, according to the logs, even though we’ve replaced the transmission harness which has the O2 sensors built-in. We’ve tested both sets and I’ve swapped out the O2 sensor as well. Think the log wouldn’t lie showing that it’s always pegged lean on B2

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Lean condition could be the result of poor flow to the injectors on B2.
I will take your bet on electrical and go with a blockage in the fuel rail. The fuel rails and injectors are not that difficult to remove and inspect. What could it hurt to rule in/out one more thing?

In a way, I'm happy to hear you mention that Bank 2 is running lean. That bolsters my thinking that this is a fuel blockage. I had a lean condition on my Gen II last year, but my problem was the fuel pump. The tip off for me was I had low fuel pressure. You reported you had 65 lbs at the regulator, so that tells me the pump is fine. Nevertheless, you still have a lean condition which means you aren't getting gas. And it only seems to apply to Bank 2 (DS). So something is preventing fuel from getting to those cylinders, and the only good news in this is that it appears the PCM is smart enough to shut down the entire bank before you damage something by running lean. I never heard of a PCM doing that, but it kind of makes sense. It would have to be *really* lean for that to happen. Mine still ran.

The problem I see is that the 65 lbs of pressure is pushing that blockage further into the rail. I haven't pulled one apart, so I can't speak authoritatively, but at some point that fuel delivery system is going to split for bank 1 and bank 2. If I were a betting man, I'd put money that there's a blockage right about where that split occurs. (It's similar to blockages in coronary arteries, and I have a LOT of experience with those)

I understand why you focused on electrical, because you had a lot invested in that angle and a lot of people helping in that direction. I hate to think about how many rabbit holes I've gone down on my own car only to have my head handed to me with a simple cause completely different from what I expected. If you can find a way to suck everything out of the fuel rail - without using a shop vac! - I'd give it a whirl. It may need to be something with a good amount of "pull", given that it's been pushed in at 65 pounds per square inch. I hope this helps. I'd like to see you get this fixed easily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Al_C

In a way, I'm happy to hear you mention that Bank 2 is running lean. That bolsters my thinking that this is a fuel blockage. I had a lean condition on my Gen II last year, but my problem was the fuel pump. The tip off for me was I had low fuel pressure. You reported you had 65 lbs at the regulator, so that tells me the pump is fine. Nevertheless, you still have a lean condition which means you aren't getting gas. And it only seems to apply to Bank 2 (DS). So something is preventing fuel from getting to those cylinders, and the only good news in this is that it appears the PCM is smart enough to shut down the entire bank before you damage something by running lean. I never heard of a PCM doing that, but it kind of makes sense. It would have to be *really* lean for that to happen. Mine still ran.

The problem I see is that the 65 lbs of pressure is pushing that blockage further into the rail. I haven't pulled one apart, so I can't speak authoritatively, but at some point that fuel delivery system is going to split for bank 1 and bank 2. If I were a betting man, I'd put money that there's a blockage right about where that split occurs. (It's similar to blockages in coronary arteries, and I have a LOT of experience with those)

I understand why you focused on electrical, because you had a lot invested in that angle and a lot of people helping in that direction. I hate to think about how many rabbit holes I've gone down on my own car only to have my head handed to me with a simple cause completely different from what I expected. If you can find a way to suck everything out of the fuel rail - without using a shop vac! - I'd give it a whirl. It may need to be something with a good amount of "pull", given that it's been pushed in at 65 pounds per square inch. I hope this helps. I'd like to see you get this fixed easily.

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I like this line of thinking. It might make sense as to why it fires on that side as well at start up. There may be enough leaking by to start the motor but it quickly runs out of fuel.

There is a way to test if injectors are spraying compared to the others of an engine but it requires a scan tool that can pulse each one while a fuel pressure gauge is attached to the rail. It can pulse each injector for about 3-5 seconds then you record the pressure drop of each injector to the others. You energize the fuel pump to max pressure and then shut it off, pulse the injector and then repeat for each one. There may be a stand alone tool to pulse each injector by plugging a connector onto them one at a time. They should all read about the same pressure drop. Do not perform this more than twice on each injector before starting the engine or you'll load up the cylinders with gas. Once is better. Less pressure drop, less flow.

1 other suggestion no on else has put here. When I initially had issues trying to get the Tune done on my Gen 3, I started calling an emailing Ford experts. Found Brenspeed near Ft Wayne Ind. Tech guy was very helpful on the phone. And his suggestion if I still had issues was to contact Livernois Motorsports in Dearborn MI. His quote to me on that was "Livernois Has All The Magic" they are near Ford and work closely with them according to the Tech at Brenspeed. Checking that wiring is painstaking but probably worth it at this point to. Good Luck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nigel Allen

All engine grounds should have the ability to carry the starter motor current (which is the highest current likely to flow) If your main ground is disconnected, becomes resistive due to corrosion, or fails, full starting current (I measured ~150 amps on my Coyote) will flow through this wire and likely turn it into smoke.

Cheers,

Nige

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had some time to redo the ground, just to quell the 'not enough grounds' issue - this one is on the rear of the driver head into the frame, also added another ground on the passenger side head into the frame as well

https://i.ibb.co/HD367MF/image.png
https://i.ibb.co/TrJSZSQ/image.png https://i.ibb.co/1sHNz8Y/image.png

still no difference in the engine run state, travelling this week, may take it up to AED for Shaun to troubleshoot...

I've mostly stayed out of this because fortunately I've not had anything remotely similar with the two Coyote builds I've done. But after all the updates, part changes, tuning responses, etc. I'm left with these two questions.

1. I asked previously about the Ford Performance control pack harness. Not the harness on the engine itself but the one that Ford Performance provides with the control pack that hooks everything up. Has this been replaced? As I said before, another build buddy chased Gen 2 Coyote issues for an extended period of time and that solved the problem.

2. At what point does Ford warranty the engine itself? Has this been discussed? One of the reasons we pony up for these engines is to get a factory warranty. When everything else fails, maybe there's something wrong with your engine. Whether an assembly error, a defective internal part, whatever. It's strange (to me anyway) that the symptoms you're having aren't reflected in ODB trouble codes. That alone suggests there something basically wrong that programming didn't account for. I'd bet that within the engine engineering group at Ford someone could figure this out. But obviously that hasn't happened yet and seems a pretty good chance could involve a major teardown. Not something you should have to do. These engines are complex. I know swapping the engine would be a huge pain. But without a solution after everything else, seems like the next step. If you drove your Mustang into a dealer with these kinds of issues, and had this amount of troubleshooting, pretty sure they'd just swap out the engine. You've been working with Lund and they appear to be stumped. I've heard Shaun at AED is really good (I haven't worked with him...) but since the problem happens on the stock tune and the custom tune, not sure what more custom programming is going to accomplish. Plus shouldn't be an issue for Ford to take responsibility and not blame custom programing. Note I said "shouldn't..." :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toadster

I have a ground strap on both sides into the block,
so add another ground strap from the head to the frame? both heads?
https://i.ibb.co/4jbZmBM/IMG-9742.jpg https://i.ibb.co/FmckFP3/IMG-9741.jpg


also, installed the new ECU, fired up great initially - temps on bank2 got up to 250-270F, we even got some oil burn-off from the headers, then it shutdown bank2 again and went back to it's usual issues
several restarts to test again, the bank2 only gets 95F, no hotter and definitely not firing again - even changed all the plugs on the driver side (bank2) and same issue

for the short time it ran 'well' it seemed that 2 of the 4 cylinders, we think #6 and #8 fired hotter than the others, hard to remember because it was just under a minute

video to see the startup, you will notice the oil burn-off around 50 seconds, then shortly thereafter shuts down bank #2 (gets quieter)
https://youtu.be/gKHxYLKjmio

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Try Ground straps directly to the heads vs the block. The easy way I do it is.... ground strap from one head to the other head and then from one of those heads to the frame and/or battery. It's easy to try it.

Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mkassab

Try Ground straps directly to the heads vs the block. The easy way I do it is.... ground strap from one head to the other head and then from one of those heads to the frame and/or battery. It's easy to try it.

Mark

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I guess I could try this, need to find another spot to attach a bolt on the heads

1. really tight on the driver side
2. lack of mount points - pretty much everything is used up

any recommended spots to mount between heads? I'm up for anything at this point to get it running...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toadster

I guess I could try this, need to find another spot to attach a bolt on the heads

1. really tight on the driver side
2. lack of mount points - pretty much everything is used up

any recommended spots to mount between heads? I'm up for anything at this point to get it running...

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I'd try the front of the heads.... use an existing bolt, e.g., where other items are mounted to, e.g., alternator bracket, timing chain cover, header bolt... etc.

For a very easy "test".... just use jumper cables.... head to head the Head to Neg Battery Terminal. Also, Use an Ohm meter from the head to the neg battery terminal to check if you have a clean connection.

Mark

By my count, you have (at least) three grounds already from the engine to the frame. Assuming they're all clean and tight, that's more than enough grounds. I think we can rule out engine grounding as the cause of the problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnK

By my count, you have (at least) three grounds already from the engine to the frame. Assuming they're all clean and tight, that's more than enough grounds. I think we can rule out engine grounding as the cause of the problem.

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agreed - 4 grounds to frame, all retested this past weekend

1. one 2GA wire from battery to engine mount
   
   1. one strap from engine mount to driver side block/engine mount
   
   
2. one ground strap from passenger side of block into frame
3. one ground wire from rear driver head to frame
4. one ground wire from front passenger head to frame

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnK

By my count, you have (at least) three grounds already from the engine to the frame. Assuming they're all clean and tight, that's more than enough grounds. I think we can rule out engine grounding as the cause of the problem.

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I agree. If your grounds were weak it would more likely show up when starting.

Jeff

The more complicated things are made the more things that can go wrong. KISS as my father used to say. Sorry your having such problems and I hope things are worked out soon for you. My LS runs great. I've run out of suggestions for you and there are a host of great guys here that have made other great suggestions. I'll be checking back to see how you're doing. Good luck!

I think you should really pull the fuel injectors on that side of the motor and inspect for debris, depending on how you constructed you fuel lines you may have introduced debris. Since you have replaced the ECM and harness at this point I don't think the problem could be electrical, especially with the way the ST fuel trim flips like a light switch.

Every time I see this post bumped, I'm praying you figured it out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edwardb

I've mostly stayed out of this because fortunately I've not had anything remotely similar with the two Coyote builds I've done. But after all the updates, part changes, tuning responses, etc. I'm left with these two questions.

1. I asked previously about the Ford Performance control pack harness. Not the harness on the engine itself but the one that Ford Performance provides with the control pack that hooks everything up. Has this been replaced? As I said before, another build buddy chased Gen 2 Coyote issues for an extended period of time and that solved the problem.

2. At what point does Ford warranty the engine itself? Has this been discussed? One of the reasons we pony up for these engines is to get a factory warranty. When everything else fails, maybe there's something wrong with your engine. Whether an assembly error, a defective internal part, whatever. It's strange (to me anyway) that the symptoms you're having aren't reflected in ODB trouble codes. That alone suggests there something basically wrong that programming didn't account for. I'd bet that within the engine engineering group at Ford someone could figure this out. But obviously that hasn't happened yet and seems a pretty good chance could involve a major teardown. Not something you should have to do. These engines are complex. I know swapping the engine would be a huge pain. But without a solution after everything else, seems like the next step. If you drove your Mustang into a dealer with these kinds of issues, and had this amount of troubleshooting, pretty sure they'd just swap out the engine. You've been working with Lund and they appear to be stumped. I've heard Shaun at AED is really good (I haven't worked with him...) but since the problem happens on the stock tune and the custom tune, not sure what more custom programming is going to accomplish. Plus shouldn't be an issue for Ford to take responsibility and not blame custom programing. Note I said "shouldn't..." :p

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These are pretty important questions. At least IMO. :p Response?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edwardb

These are pretty important questions. At least IMO. :p Response?

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Hi Paul - sorry been travelling this week... great questions!

1. I asked previously about the Ford Performance control pack harness. Not the harness on the engine itself but the one that Ford Performance provides with the control pack that hooks everything up. Has this been replaced? As I said before, another build buddy chased Gen 2 Coyote issues for an extended period of time and that solved the problem.

The only harness we haven't replaced yet is the control pack harness that feeds into the PDU and dash
we replaced the following:

• transmission harness (part C175T), which has the O2 wiring (90 pin lower plug, as mounted in the chassis)
  
• engine harness (part which is the 126 pin center plug
  
  
• PCM (ECU) with base Ford flashed tune for the crate engine
  
  
• I purchased another MOTORCRAFT DY1442 O2 plug to ensure we didn't have a bad sensor

Ford hasn't mentioned the PDU harness, but I can ask - of course they're closed today for the Veteran's Day holiday but Ken @ Ford is checking for my emails - they really are trying IMHO

2. At what point does Ford warranty the engine itself? Has this been discussed?

We've discussed it for sure, holding this as the last resort for obvious reasons: cost, complexity, etc.

One of the reasons we pony up for these engines is to get a factory warranty. When everything else fails, maybe there's something wrong with your engine. Whether an assembly error, a defective internal part, whatever. It's strange (to me anyway) that the symptoms you're having aren't reflected in ODB trouble codes. That alone suggests there something basically wrong that programming didn't account for. I'd bet that within the engine engineering group at Ford someone could figure this out. But obviously that hasn't happened yet and seems a pretty good chance could involve a major teardown. Not something you should have to do. These engines are complex. I know swapping the engine would be a huge pain. But without a solution after everything else, seems like the next step. If you drove your Mustang into a dealer with these kinds of issues, and had this amount of troubleshooting, pretty sure they'd just swap out the engine. You've been working with Lund and they appear to be stumped. I've heard Shaun at AED is really good (I haven't worked with him...) but since the problem happens on the stock tune and the custom tune, not sure what more custom programming is going to accomplish. Plus shouldn't be an issue for Ford to take responsibility and not blame custom programing. Note I said "shouldn't..." :p

agreed on the programming, I haven't applied the LUND tune on the new ECU to keep any excess variables out of the mix.
I may take to AED as he's done tons of work on the Coyote engines, if it ends up being a hardware issue then I'm asking Ford to foot that bill, and replace the engine but if by some chance Shaun can find something else, then I'd be on the hook for that

at this point, everything leads to O2 running full lean on bank2, we've tried two O2 harnesses, different O2 sensors, 2 different ECUs, base tune, LUND Tune, it keeps coming back to bank2 running max lean

Ford has asked for a log with both O2 sensors unplugged, I guided my son on logging while I was travelling but of course the OBD2 didn't capture the cold start and only started working about a minute later when he re-connected the logging tool - finicky OBD2 software to blame...

hopefully get a good cold start log today - once the neighborhood wakes up :)

I apologize if I missed this, but did you ever try clearing the fuel rail?
Logic applies as someone previously suggested on line blockage. A partial blockage would allow the engine to run on fuel pressure that has seeped past any blockage, but becomes lean as the blockage does not allow for sufficient flow to maintain proper a/f ratio.
I have not looked at my Gen 1 fuel rail, but they are usually external bolt on. I would think, at this point, it would be time well spent to remove and blow out with compressed air.
No bashing intended, just want to see you get this resolved.
Good luck,

Have you tried it with the O2 sensors unplugged? Yes it will throw codes but will run in an open loop default mode meaning that the ECU won't try to correct a lean or rich condition.

Jeff

Can you post a log here so those of us with HPT can see it?

From a mechanical standpoint, I agree with ensuring injector flow, glaring vacuum leaks, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner

Have you tried it with the O2 sensors unplugged? Yes it will throw codes but will run in an open loop default mode meaning that the ECU won't try to correct a lean or rich condition.

Jeff

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yes - logged this https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Yvp...ew?usp=sharing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Railroad

I apologize if I missed this, but did you ever try clearing the fuel rail?
Logic applies as someone previously suggested on line blockage. A partial blockage would allow the engine to run on fuel pressure that has seeped past any blockage, but becomes lean as the blockage does not allow for sufficient flow to maintain proper a/f ratio.
I have not looked at my Gen 1 fuel rail, but they are usually external bolt on. I would think, at this point, it would be time well spent to remove and blow out with compressed air.
No bashing intended, just want to see you get this resolved.
Good luck,

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I haven't pulled the fuel rail yet, need to bleed off some pressure first... agreed, this is at least worth eyeballing and testing with compressed air

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Its Bruce

Can you post a log here so those of us with HPT can see it?

From a mechanical standpoint, I agree with ensuring injector flow, glaring vacuum leaks, etc.

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log linked above, should be available to download
exhaust is tight on both banks, no exhaust leaks, all vacuum ports are either plugged or routed to things like vacuum assist brakes

Looking forward to hearing what you find when you pull the fuel rail and check for debris. Electrical problems rarely come and go, mechanical issues seem like the better bet. At some point, I think you are going to need to pull the valve cover on the offending bank just to take a look. I keep wondering if the phasors or timing on that bank could be off too.
With the Gen 3, you have both port and direct injection, so two sources of fuel to the cylinders and more complexity.
Good luck, although I have a Gen 2 from a donor, I really want to know what the failure mode is here.

pulled and cleaned the fuel rail... no change :(

https://youtu.be/JEIEP2mf-s4

https://i.ibb.co/1XysQjP/IMG-9926.jpg https://i.ibb.co/vQTYBRq/IMG-9927.jpg https://i.ibb.co/Yh9vxH3/IMG-9928.jpg https://i.ibb.co/L84513t/IMG-9929.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan_C

Looking forward to hearing what you find when you pull the fuel rail and check for debris. Electrical problems rarely come and go, mechanical issues seem like the better bet. At some point, I think you are going to need to pull the valve cover on the offending bank just to take a look. I keep wondering if the phasors or timing on that bank could be off too.
With the Gen 3, you have both port and direct injection, so two sources of fuel to the cylinders and more complexity.
Good luck, although I have a Gen 2 from a donor, I really want to know what the failure mode is here.

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pretty sure to pull the valve cover on the driver side will mean pulling the engine,
in the pic below, I put an LED under the driver side head to show the spacing, I have about 3-4mm of clearance between the hard-stuff - as you can see even wires are rubbing it's so tight in there
https://i.ibb.co/NN0M6bb/IMG-9931.jpg


if someone has ideas on clearance of screws, etc to remove the valve cover that would be helpful

Sad, I thought for sure there was smoking gun there. Sorry to hear that to get to the head you are going to have to pull the engine, but I know how tight the Coyote fit is. Regarding fuel, there is still the direct injection system too, but I imagine that would be harder to test and diagnose.
As you learn more of what the problem isn't, hopefully Ford Performance can give some valuable feedback. At this point, do you ask FP to warranty replace the crate engine. I think you have done your do diligence here, they need to step up and give you support so that you don't end up with an expensive paperweight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan_C

Sad, I thought for sure there was smoking gun there. Sorry to hear that to get to the head you are going to have to pull the engine, but I know how tight the Coyote fit is. Regarding fuel, there is still the direct injection system too, but I imagine that would be harder to test and diagnose.
As you learn more of what the problem isn't, hopefully Ford Performance can give some valuable feedback. At this point, do you ask FP to warranty replace the crate engine. I think you have done your do diligence here, they need to step up and give you support so that you don't end up with an expensive paperweight.

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yeah, i'm pretty much at the end of my skills rope... I'm going to talk with Ford Monday, I think take it up to AED so Shaun can put some hands on it

if I missed something, I'm out a few bucks and it works, if he can't fix it - I'll be pushing for a new engine

I saw your purple wire there.. I'm assuming you did the Tach wire to one of those coil overs - sure thats all clean and correct?

So i just listened to yours; it sounds just like mine (i never checked the exhaust temp) mine runs up like yours then idles down and the exhaust noise changes, but i dont have a tune on mine. Mine appears to be running on all 8 cyl; but again no tune. I dont hear any miss at all?

Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toadster

log linked above, should be available to download

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Observations:

1. Your MAP spikes to atmospheric (100kpa) whenever you're applying throttle and you're only applying 25% max throttle. This is consistent in both logs.
2. On the first log, your O2's seem to be adjusting STFT's as they should. I see nothing immediately wrong with their operation, but I don't see where you're monitoring the O2 mV for each bank.
3. Your trouble codes are all symmetric except for P2008. Is there a Bank 2 for this code?
4. The fuel rail pressure gets up to >3,000psi with the O2's disconnected but only ~1,000psi in the initial log.
5. Your Fuel System #1 Status with the O2's plugged in is still "CL - Fault" status.

Is the MAP sensor the correct PN? Is it a 1 bar MAP? Is it installed in the correct location?

Take a look here for some info on the CL - Fault status: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-Turbo-Advice