818Rasmus E Modified

Thanks everyone for the welcoming back!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by metros

For those of us not in the know, why is it so important to glove up, acetone, and re-oil the L19 bolts?

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You know I don't really know if it's true or not but apparently the following is quoted from ARP's catalog:

Quote:

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PAGE 19
20. How does L19 compare to ARP2000?
L19 differs from ARP2000 in that it is a vacuum melted
alloyed steel with sufficient chromium and carbon to achieve
high hardness (but below the level of a stainless steel). L19 is
air-cooled from the hardening temperature in a way that does
not require an oil quench to achieve full hardness and is tempered to assure full conversion to martensite between 1025°F
and 1075˚F. L19 is a proprietary material capable of achieving
strengths of 220,000/230,000 or 260,000/270,000 psi as may
be required. Both L19 and ARP2000 steels are modified bcc
(martensite) at room temperature. L19 has the same advantage as ARP2000 in that a high strength is obtained at a high
tempering temperature. This alloy is easily contaminated and
requires special handling.

PAGE 20
L19: This is a premium steel that is processed to deliver superior strength
and fatigue properties. L19 is a very high strength material compared to
8740 and ARP2000 and is capable of delivering a clamp load at 260,000
psi. It is primarily used in short track and drag racing applications where
inertia loads exceed the clamping capability of ARP2000. Like most high
strength, quench and temper steels – L19 requires special care during
manufacturing to avoid hydrogen embrittlement. This material is easily
contaminated and subject to stress corrosion. It must be kept well-oiled
and not exposed to moisture.

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Emphasis is my own.

So it's kind of confusing to me that these are some of the highest clamping load steel alloy rod bolts on the market but, "don't touch 'em or they'll eventually shatter". :confused: Anyway, it was easy enough to glove up and then rub off/displace any water that might have come from my hands or the environment with acetone. Then apply ARP lube on the shaft and threads and dip the head in motor oil. Then I just made sure to only handle them with gloves as I measured 'em and stretched 'em out. Then reapplied oil to the exposed bolt heads and tips after I got them stretched proper. No licking.

Brings me back over 30 years to advanced metallurgy classes...

Crystal structure and metallic composition. The hydrogen in the water bonds with the metal and it forms a sort of growth into the metal, these areas with higher amts of hydrogen (migrated from the water molecules) are not strong, are more brittle.

Everyone knows how surface finish and shape changes can cause stress risers leading to failure, some materials are subject to degradation due to contamination and this particular composition has an affinity for the hydrogen in water.

Steel oxidizes and forms rust, weaker than the original material. Aluminum oxidizes and it's oxides are harder than the original alloy. That's why welding aluminum is such a pain, the base melts, the oxide sits there as a crust...

how many realize that you torque a bolt to stretch it beyond the stress that it is expected to see in the application? If you don't it could get loose during use and leak or fail due to changing the mode of loading

That's why we buy service manuals and follow directions

Edit: another thought, stainless is developed for the opposite reason, higher resistance to corrosion, many are weaker alloys that std steels. Those rod bolts are extremely strong, they are suseptable to corrosion but are used in a favorable environment for the alloy, just don't get them wet during assembly

Hi Rasmus,
Did you miss us or was it Scargo's blatant lightening efforts getting close to your own that brought you back!
glad to see you back. Your comments are usually right on.

Interesting stuff. This is why I make sure to check this thread frequently. It has scientific information that I don't come across on my own.

Plus I want to see what else he's cutting off to lighten the final product.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by metros

Interesting stuff. This is why I make sure to check this thread frequently. It has scientific information that I don't come across on my own.

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I stand on the back's of giants, Metros. Without them I wouldn't have the incredible view.

http://i.imgur.com/1rMyeZi.jpg
Split the case again to install the main crankshaft bearings so I could get a bore gauge in there. Getting consistent readings on a bore gauge that's supposed to be accurate to 0.00005" takes a bit of effort for an amateur, like myself.

Did all this so I could calculate the mains' bearing clearances. Didn't want to trust plastigauge. Using bunches of measurements for the crankshaft and several for the main bore w/bearings my oil clearance are calculated to be:

#1 ---> .00165"
#2 ---> .0019"
#3 ---> .00165"
#4 ---> .0019"
#5 ---> .00165"

According to research done by King Bearings (click to nerd out), main Journal clearance for a 2.3625" diameter should be:

0.0012"--->0.0024" for a daily driver passenger car or
0.0018"--->0.0035" for a "High performance" car

So it looks like I'm running a little tight on 1, 3, & 5 for my high performance application. But well within the specs for a car. 1, 3, & 5 are also the bearings that feed the rod bearings oil.

Quoting from the above linked, King Bearing, white paper:

Quote:

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Oil clearance
The basic geometrical parameter of an engine bearing is the oil clearance - the difference
between the inside diameter of the bearing installed in the housing and the diameter of
the journal (the inside bearing diameter is measured at 90° to the parting line).
Oil clearance should have an optimal value providing the desirable combination of the
lubrication parameters.
Higher oil clearance causes an increase of the oil flow passing through the bearing and
resulting in a lower oil temperature rise. However higher clearance produces less uniform
distribution of the oil pressure - greater peak pressure, which increases the probability of
the bearing material fatigue. Minimum oil film thickness decreases at higher pressure and
may cause direct metal-to-metal contact between the mating surfaces. Too much
clearance produces excessive vibration and noise.

Lower oil clearance results in a more uniform oil film pressure distribution and a greater
oil film thickness, however too small clearance causes overheating the oil and a sharp
drop of its viscosity.
High performance bearings produced by King Engine Bearings offer a wide selection of
undersizes so that is is easy to achieve the desired oil clearance.
Typical values of oil clearance C :
Passenger cars:
Cmin = 0.0005*D
Cmax = 0.001*D
High performance cars:
Cmin = 0.00075*D
Cmax = 0.0015*D
Where D = the journal diameter.

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Bolding is my own.

So if I just run them as they sit the oil will tend to get hotter at a track day than one might like. But for AutoX, or driving to a show-n-shine I should be fine.

Anel 2 to Anel 1: What was the temperature when you miked everything? Did you have the crank and case inspected for roundness and straightness? I've had discussions about cases. New vs used and non-stock bolts and torque specs. To line hone the mains or not. What pump will you run and are all passages/transitions stock? I can't remember everything you've done...
Why not consider scraping the two tighter bearings?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scargo

What was the temperature when you miked everything?

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72°f when measuring the bearings. 76°f when measuring the crank journals. So the clearances will read a little tighter. By how much, I don't know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scargo

Did you have the crank and case inspected for roundness and straightness?

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Yes. Both case parting lines were milled down by .0025" and the main line honed back out to straight and round, with a 2.5203" diameter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scargo

Why not consider scraping the two tighter bearings?

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I have three tighter bearings. 1, 3, & 5. I could sand the backs of them and try to open them up a little. I really don't look forward to doing that. It's a lot of work torquing the case halves together. I'm gonna get out there this morning and re-measure the bores again.

I know what I said, but what I meant was sand the backs of the bearings.

Upon a remeasuring I found out where I ****ed up.

http://i.imgur.com/3vxehfY.jpg

Bearings 2 & 4 don't have an obvious groove for oil in them like 1, 3, or 5 do. So the first time, I just measured the bore right in the middle of 2 & 4. Don't do that. 2 & 4 have a slight dish to them. The middle of the 2 & 4 bearings measure at 2.3644" while the edges of the same measure at 2.36405". A difference of 0.00035". So there's a slight valley in the middle of those two bearings, and I assume that's by design. You can't perceive it with the naked eye or by touch. It makes total sense to me that you've have a valley in there to distribute oil equally to the full circumference. By way of comparison, human hair varies from 0.00067" to 0.00709" diameter. So the valley in these bearings is less than half width of the thinnest human hair or about 9% the width of average human hair.

Remeasuring puts my main bearing clearances at:
#1 ---> .00165"
#2 ---> .00165"
#3 ---> .00165"
#4 ---> .00165"
#5 ---> .00165"

Accurate to .00005"

Damn. I didn't think they'd be so close. I have to give major props to Dale at Motion Machine and his superb machine work. Also to King Bearings for their excellent quality control. Wow.

That sorted, time to put the short block together.

Like Andrew and Tamra, I'm building a long-rod, destroker using:
a 75mm crankshaft
+4 mm longer rods
piston wrist pin bores moved up +2 mm

Doing so requires one to do some goofy things to get the wrist pins in. You have to assemble it completely out of order from the FSM.

http://i.imgur.com/veXN3bQ.jpg
First you put the pistons in with the case halves separate.

http://i.imgur.com/nFT4atz.jpg
Second, set the crankshaft in the right case half. Rod bolts stretched proper and and ready to go. Place shims on the parting face. I used .125" (3mm) aluminium bar stock. You could probably get away with just using paper folded to 3 - 4 mm thick.

http://i.imgur.com/Hz0JiAI.jpg
Third, set the left case half on to your shims lining up your dowels. I temporarily, clamped the halves together. You could probably use just 2 case bolts to gently hold the assembly together (< 1 ft-lb of torque) You have to flip the case at least twice. Don't want those pretty mating surfaces dinging each other up. Don't want your spacers falling out.

http://i.imgur.com/8xWqAKB.jpg
Fourth, the "fun" part. Getting the wrist pins in and insuring the wrist pin c-clips are fully seated. I did them it in this order:

Piston 2
Flip case
Piston 1
Rotate crankshaft 180
Piston 3
Flip Case
Piston 4

Took me the better part of 2 hours, for just this step. Never let a mechanical part know you're in a hurry.

http://i.imgur.com/e6NUANb.jpg
Step Five, take picture. Continued tomorrow...

Step 6: Have fun with the hondabond or whatever RTV you're using.. Assembly lube everywhere, can't have it get in the way of the RTV, and can only split the cases by a couple inches.. Fun.

Looks great, glad to have you back & active.

Nice work Rasmus.
I know how much work it was to get the wrist pins in on my stock arrangement. With the shims and flipping, I'm sure there were some choice words flowing.
Good luck with the sealing of the block....just like Tamra said.

Rasmus - It's summer now. Come back to update your 818 build. Inquiring minds want to know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by metros

Rasmus - It's summer now. Come back to update your 818 build. Inquiring minds want to know.

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have you been to Vegas in the summer? he's hibernating until fall.

Actually never been to Vegas. He installed AC in his garage. He should be good.

The A/C is probably broken, so back to hibernating. :)

Have you ever been so mad that you stopped doing what you loved, let your tools get rusty, and didn't return for 6 months. While gaining 20 lbs?

http://i.imgur.com/nPMdLcJ.jpg
I have.

http://i.imgur.com/GnqUtc3.jpg
Putting the shortblock together the "upper" bearing half on main #2 fell out of the its bore and wedged between the lower main #2 bearing and crankshaft. I thought the case halves were just stuck on the dowels like they were so many times before. I readjusted not knowing why the cases were really stuck. Cranked a bit on the case bolts to see if I could get it over the hump and get the halves mated before the Permatex set. Ruined my custom machined block. It never turned one revolution.

In my adult life, I have never been so mad. When I discovered what I'd done I threw a sheet over the mess, walked into the house, and tried not to puke. That's how mad I got. I felt dizzy, and wanted to vomit.

6 months later, I'm ready to face it, 20 lbs heavier.

Next block, I'm red lock-tite-ing the bearing backs to the case before final assembly.

Screw it. Welcome back!

Thanks.

The way I had the steering shaft mounted before allowed too much leverage from the driver. I could see the shaft bending from just sitting in the car going, "Vroom. Vroom."

http://i.imgur.com/uzOCdls.jpg
Fabbed up a new upper mount for the steering shaft closer to the steering wheel. Cut the old one out. Took inspiration from the WRC cars.

http://i.imgur.com/RTNQdjo.jpg
Top down view.

Welcome back Rasmus.
Great to see you back at it.
Bob

Really sorry about your block. If you're not having fun it's not worth doing!

Glad you're back

Sorry to hear about the block. Glad you're back. We need a frame of reference for "really light 818".

It's worth all the effort/struggles!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rasmus

Have you ever been so mad that you stopped doing what you loved, let your tools get rusty, and didn't return for 6 months. While gaining 20 lbs?

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This helps EVERY time.

http://disneyjunior.disney.com/mad

welcome back man.

We missed you

Good to have you back! I can imagine how frustrated you must have been after all that time and money on the engine build. I think we've all been there in one way or the other. Glad you are back!

I think we all feel for you, I know I hate that Oh-S*** moment when I realize what went wrong. Welcome back.

welcome back!
I also know the feeling... imagine being a 17 year old high school senior. every penny you made for the last 10 months, and all your time goes into making this 400sbc for your camaro. The camaro itself has every penny you made for the last 5 years (started saving before high school)

and it gets broken into at a football game at school.
and it gets the interior trashed, stuff stolen, and even the new edelbrock carb stolen.

and then to top it off... when you get some insurance money and try to get it going again.... the 4 nuts and washers that held the carb on trash the entire motor.

i sold the car soon after... but looking back I learned so much working on it. Without that car, if I just had a reliable cheap car.... I wouldnt know how to work on anything.

yeah. life gets ****ty sometimes.


Yet because of it, here I am today doing everything from welding up custom frames to designing electronics... I wouldnt have the basic mechanical skills without that car. Never mind engine theory, fabrication, etc... I can trace all that back to "wanting to build a cool car in high school"

atleast you know how to measure bearings now.

Thank you all for the warm welcome back. Means a lot to me.

Ever since I installed my seat I had the nagging feeling like I still didn't fit in the car. I'm 6'0". Tall, but not circus tall. I'm running the stock fuel tank and have the Kirkey seat as far back as I can get it. It will, in fact, rub the firewall. The pedals are just too close. I knew I'd never be comfortable, so I committed to moving the entire pedal box forward.

The most clear issue moving the whole pedal box was going to be the clutch pedal. It'll hit the front lower a-arm if moved forward too much. So I needed to reduce that pedal's throw without shorting the pedal itself. The clutch pedal has a total of 5 7/8" of movement from full-out to full-in. I realized that my 2004 WRX clutch pedal has a bunch of space at the bottom of the throw where the clutch is fully disengaged but I can still press the pedal. I measured it at 2.25" movement from full-in until the clutch kisses the flywheel. I then calculated the clutch pedal movement ratio stock. 6.6:1 (11":1.666"). Then calculated the amount of length I would need to add to the clutch hydraulic plunger arm to reduce that ratio to 5.1:1. The lowest ratio on Wilwoods website for clutch pedals.

http://i.imgur.com/ic7vVVk.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pF4g2Ii.jpg
Stock arm is 1.666" long (C to C). So I needed to lengthen the arm to 2.157". Needed to weld on more arm and this thing is 0.25" thick. The thickest my welder can do in one pass.

http://i.imgur.com/JPfaJHf.jpg?1
Reducing the pedal ratio to 5.1:1 and removing 1.75" from the bottom of the pedal throw allowed me to reduce the pedals total movement from 5 7/8" to 3 1/8" To be safe I used 1.75" instead of 2.25" removed from the bottom of the throw. Didn't want the clutch to constantly rub the flywheel. In total, I removed 2.75" of throw. Pictured above is the pedal stop I made to eliminate that movement. It's mounted in double shear with three 1/8" rivets.

Nice thinking outside the box! So far everyone else has focused on moving the seat instead of the pedals.

Not sure if you saw this or not but FFR came out with a new tank. They'll give you a great deal on it if you send back your old tank. The new one gives another 6-8" of space for the driver seat to move back. Comes with new firewall panels that I prefer over the old ones. If you haven't already seen it, you can see it in my build thread pics.

http://i.imgur.com/VuHYEGG.jpg
Fabbed up a whole new accelerator mount. FFR's was junk anyway.

http://i.imgur.com/21eJDkp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/JeP24Oo.jpg
Had to remove the bar that the original pedal box, accelerator pedal, and steering column mounted to. This allowed me to move the entire pedal box forward.

http://i.imgur.com/9S8Skgb.jpg
From the side.

http://i.imgur.com/iimklwT.jpg
New clutch pedal full-in position. Gonna be a chore to get a firewall in between those two.

http://i.imgur.com/luPN7qS.jpg
Pedals from the side.

http://i.imgur.com/3KDjicE.jpg
In total I moved the pedal box 3.625" forward. It makes a world of difference. Before, my hamstrings didn't even touch the seat pushing the clutch or accelerator full in. Now, I'm sitting comfy. Above is with both the clutch and accelerator fully depressed.

http://i.imgur.com/2gfRQqg.jpg
Full out. Clutch foot on dead pedal.

http://i.imgur.com/8NaJO0q.jpg
Showing off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rasmus

Showing off.

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Bro, do you even hell-toe?

Seriously though, the pedals looks great. Comfort is huge for me in cars. I really like what you did to support the accelerator pedal. A more secure pedal is something I'm looking to achieve; my whole assembly flexes a bit.

Great Job Ramus,
I wish I caught you before you got this deep.
My son is 6'3" 300. I'm 6'0" 280.
I was considering moving the pedals.
By eliminating the gas tank behind the driver and Customizing the kirkey seat we are good to go.
You can see in this picture how far back our seats are. They are18" wide kirkey intermediate road race seats. Bolted flat on the floor.
On my next car I will need more room for batteries, So I might follow you lead on the pedals.
Bob

Attachment 45350

Glad to see you back Rasmus. Your's was a thread i always looked forward to and you don't let us down. I like the pedal mod..... now I'll have to think about that one....I'm 5'11 and would like a couple more inches.
I also have the FFR tank and I have my seat right back to the rollbar at the angle I like to sit. Might take a look at moving them.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy

Great Job Ramus,
By eliminating the gas tank behind the driver and Customizing the kirkey seat we are good to go.
You can see in this picture how far back our seats are.

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I honestly thought and thought about this. But I just couldn't conceive of a way that I could have the seat angled like I wanted and move it back any further.

http://i.imgur.com/5zPmgZn.jpg
The rolled bead that runs down the middle of the head rest is literally touching the cross-brace on my R's main roll loop. I'll probably have to make a little notch in the seat so it doesn't compromise the brace. My seats are not mounted flat though. The bottoms sit at a 9.5° angle leaned back which is where I think you're getting all that space. I'd love to see more pictures of your tank and seat modifications. Got a link?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harley818

Your's was a thread i always looked forward to and you don't let us down.

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Thanks Harley.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pearldrummer7

Bro, do you even hell-toe?

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Track day, Bro! Hoooooosiers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rasmus

I honestly thought and thought about this. But I just couldn't conceive of a way that I could have the seat angled like I wanted and move it back any further.

The rolled bead that runs down the middle of the head rest is literally touching the cross-brace on my R's main roll loop. I'll probably have to make a little notch in the seat so it doesn't compromise the brace. My seats are not mounted flat though. The bottoms sit at a 9.5° angle leaned back which is where I think you're getting all that space. I'd love to see more pictures of your tank and seat modifications. Got a link?

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Hi Rasmus,
Here is a post about my gas tank.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post166601

My seat mod was a lot of trial and error, so I wasn't taking pictures.
Basically ended up adding 2 bends to the seat.

My seat # 47900 is 15 degree layback 18" wide.
Attachment 45353

With it flat on the floor against a vertical wall, the bottom of the seat is about 7" from the wall.
At 12" (maybe a little higher) from the floor I cut "V" in each side of the seat. I bent the seat vertical from the 12" to 24" points. I welded the "V" shut.
At the 24" point the head rest was now leaning forward. I did a "Marquise" cut and bent the head rest back to vertical. The seat now sits about 4" from the wall at the bottom.
Attachment 45356

Here is Michael and I (driving) with helmets on.
Attachment 45354

This summer we mostly did test and tunes getting 40 to 60 runs between us at each event. We probably have 400 to 600 runs on the car in the past year.
Welcome back to the party.
Bob

Attachment 45355

PS: that is Michael. Our car doesn't roll like this any more.

PS#2
I had to add this just for you.
Go Kart mode Attachment 45357

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy

At 12" (maybe a little higher) from the floor I cut "V" in each side of the seat. I bent the seat vertical from the 12" to 24" points. I welded the "V" shut.
At the 24" point the head rest was now leaning forward. I did a "Marquise" cut and bent the head rest back to vertical. The seat now sits about 4" from the wall at the bottom.

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That makes sense. I don't know who will have done more custom work to make a tall guy fit. You or me. Also, I'm running the same series 47 seat as you, just in 17 inch width.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy

Go Kart mode Attachment 45357

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Nice.

O

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rasmus

Next block, I'm red lock-tite-ing the bearing backs to the case before final assembly.

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Welcome back to the project I feel your pain some time during such projects when on the last step of machining a part and some thing goes wrong. There are a few choice words I use. When these come out its time to step back and usually slow down and accept the issue, and the re evaluate as you have.
About the comment on lock titing...
This material will certainly change your preferred oil clearances,but by how much?
And the loctite will now be an insulating material between the block and the bearing.
Is this procedure common on super high performance engines?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DMC7492

About the comment on lock titing...
This material will certainly change your preferred oil clearances,but by how much?
And the loctite will now be an insulating material between the block and the bearing.
Is this procedure common on super high performance engines?

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Ooo. Excellent questions and good observations!

http://i.imgur.com/zv8iBH7.jpg
Regarding the clearances. Yes, I would have to assume that if I coated the entire back of all the bearings with loc-tite that the clearances would change. But my plan is to only dab a little bit. That is, less than a drop with a pin head into the stamped lettering on the backs of all the bearings. None of the lettering is near the thrust sections (mid "C"). They're all stamped near the part line on all ten bearing halves. The least critical sections for clearance. I have to assume that King Bearing did that on purpose. It's not that you can get sloppy with clearances there; it's just not seeing close to the kind of load that the middle of the bearing halves will see. So tolerances can be a little tighter there. I only plan on dabbing a little in the 3 or 4 letters nearest the part line. Just enough to keep the bearing from falling or moving on assembly. Not to prevent the bearing from spinning under catastrophic low oil failure.

Regarding loc-tite acting as an insulator. I don't know. I do know that a good amount of oil is always passing through that section. So I'd consider that entire area to be oil-cooled. Clearly the oil in that area will heat up, as it resists compression. The individual oil molecules aren't there for long and just drop into the main oil sump or get sprayed somewhere on the inside of the case or rods. Unless your asking if the heat from the block (cylinders) isn't being transferred to the bearings to be wicked away by the oil? Even then there's oil valleys just under the bearings, machined in the block, that transport oil from the internal oil passages to the bearing oil ports.

Common procedure on super high performance engines? No idea.

http://i.imgur.com/x1BSfRK.jpg?1
BONUS! Crushed bearing photo.