For the transmission "snobs" - 818 Shift Quality?

Hello all,

I'm confessing right at the beginning to being a hopeless transmission snob! I would personally rank the interaction with a manual transmission to be probably the MOST enjoyable part of driving (as it also relates to the drivetrain in general). Unfortunately, my disease afflicted me from a young age as I was exposed only to Honda's during my formative driving years (the 1990's), which has in turn, nearly ruined me!

Anyway, in all seriousness, I would say that, based on what I've heard from various reviews and forums about Subaru's manuals, it was perhaps the one factor that kept me from pre-ordering an 818 (along with the fact that we couldn't specify a coupe at this point). I didn't want to build a vehicle and then have something like a clunky gearbox significantly diminish my enjoyment, since, that is really what this is all about to begin with. Just wondering if any of you guys had any direct experience comparing WRX gearboxes to some of the ones listed below OR, as a technical side question, I was wondering if the shifter/transaxle combination would be affected by driving the rear wheels only.

My personal list, based on experience, of best shifting transmissions

1. Honda S2000
2. 1988 CRX Si (very close to 1st place)
3. 2008 Civic Si
4. 2010 Miata (very close to 2nd place)
5. 2009 Mazda 3 (haven't driven the skyactiv yet, hear it's great)
6. 2004 Civic Si (really light and precise, just not enough feel) (tie) 1984 Honda Civic (very heavy clutch!)
7. 1991 Nissan Sentra SE-R
8. 2001 Porsche Boxster S (overrated by auto-journalist, throws too long and occasional binding)

Well, that's it, any feedback would be greatly appreciated.:D

A lot of the sloppiness is from the stock bushings. Upgrading all of those on my 06 WRX made a world of difference. However, that entire linkage is being changed to a cable driven setup and I'm not sure how that will feel.

It will be interesting to see. The major knock against the Lotus Elise/Exige is the shifter. I've heard that the fundamental problem is that which will be shared with the 818 (cable actuated mechanism directed at the rear of the car rather than the front). This will be the one area I'll be keeping an eye on once people really start building these cars. Did you go with a short shift kit as well or just the bushings? I actually haven't had the chance to drive a WRX yet and was only going by what I'd heard.

Thanks,

Matt

I feel for you. Was thinking about the same thing (though perhaps with a bit less obsession). I own an S2000 now, and had a '89 CRX, and I agree with your list.

With the drivetrain moved to the rear, the 818 shift linkage only gets longer and more complicated. So it will be a challenge to improve feel. But I think it can be done. Will it ever be S2000 slick? The S2000 shifter sticks right out of the trans, and its the pinnacle of Honda's efforts, so there is no way the 818 is ever going to reach that level.

But can we get the 818 to shift really well, so its not a distraction? I believe we can.

I think for most the sheer thrill of the driving an 1800 lb car with 250+ HP will be such an assault on the senses there won't be any attention left to think about how the shifter feels (so long as it doesn't totally suck). Hopefully it will also be enough for a self-described shift snob such as yourself.

Iv'e noticed the same thing. ive never driven a wrx, but I learned on a s2000 so i think i'm a little spoiled. I sat in a new wrx and the shifter did seem bad. Iv'e also read that shifter bushings and a short throw kit will make the shifting a ton better. I think it will be okay (at least I hope so). It's not going to be the deciding factor for me.

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Originally Posted by Oppenheimer

I feel for you. Was thinking about the same thing (though perhaps with a bit less obsession). I own an S2000 now, and had a '89 CRX, and I agree with your list.

With the drivetrain moved to the rear, the 818 shift linkage only gets longer and more complicated. So it will be a challenge to improve feel. But I think it can be done. Will it ever be S2000 slick? The S2000 shifter sticks right out of the trans, and its the pinnacle of Honda's efforts, so there is no way the 818 is ever going to reach that level.

But can we get the 818 to shift really well, so its not a distraction? I believe we can.

I think for most the sheer thrill of the driving an 1800 lb car with 250+ HP will be such an assault on the senses there won't be any attention left to think about how the shifter feels (so long as it doesn't totally suck). Hopefully it will also be enough for a self-described shift snob such as yourself.

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I admit, it is an obsession, can't help it though! I agree that virtually nothing will be an S2000 simply based on the fact that it is direct (in the same way that a T-56 Magnum is) but I hope you're correct in your assumption that FF and others can work it out. There are a bunch of cars I haven't been able to try out yet (including the FRS and BRZ which I've read are fantastic). Have any of you guys tried these yet?

Cable operated shifter are very indirect. If you are used to a S2000 you will be very disappointed. Everything in life is give and take. The kit only cost 10K. Some coners have to be cut. IMO.

I have owned
1986 Corrolla Stock, first car
1994 GSR Turbo
2003 VW GTI 1.8 with APR turbo kit
2000 Civic Hatch with GSR engine tranny
2002 Miata stock
2001 S2000
2004 STI Cobb stage 2 ppg 6 speed, i bought it witha built ppg tranny
2002 WRX Stock
2006 STI with 400-500whp
2009 Honda Fit stock

I think the 04 Sti ppg and S2000 shifted the best, than the Gsr, than the Wrx. The wrx is mussy stock, but it is bushings and short throw shifter which brings sexy back.
The S2000 is a fun great shifting car, but no low end power and the car is too heavy. I would like one to come out in the 2200-2400lbs area with a 2.4l with 270-300hp na



I think FFR has a great rep to get it done in this area. They are car guys/engineers, and don't want the tranny to feel indirect, long or sloppy.

Sorry to say but there isn;t one real transmision in that bunch.

i have to agree that wrxs dont have the best feel by any means ive owned four of them lol my favorite however was my last wrx had short shifter, bushings, and the STi version 6 RA close ratio gears was a blast to drive was never a fan of the STi 6 speeds they just never felt as smooth to me the BRZ as well but i feel that was more to the fact that it seemed to just lack power my favorite is still the s2000 cant wait to see how the 818 will feel though

Lol yea all imports, what American transmission do you have in mind then, a T5, T6060, t56, t65 etc etc. I mean they all break the same. The rest of my family owns Chevys, Fords, and Mopars, but I happen to be the import junky. I could have built a cobra with a sweet donor for cheep, but I am a Subaru guy, and the 818 rocks. BTW That video of the 33 beating a Lambo is soooo killer

Where is this video you speak of? I got to see that.

But back on subject, s2000, nsx, c6 z06, and 911 shift about the best for me. Import junky at heart. But blessed to be a Valet so I get to drive alot of high end cars. The wrx is a bit of a let down in quality of shifting. I've driven multiple years and makes so its a pretty informed observation on my part. But this is not going to stop me from building the kit. Just waiting on a coupe or hard top iteration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V96-A...layer_embedded Here you go!!!!

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Originally Posted by 07FIREBLADE

Where is this video you speak of? I got to see that.

But back on subject, s2000, nsx, c6 z06, and 911 shift about the best for me. Import junky at heart. But blessed to be a Valet so I get to drive alot of high end cars. The wrx is a bit of a let down in quality of shifting. I've driven multiple years and makes so its a pretty informed observation on my part. But this is not going to stop me from building the kit. Just waiting on a coupe or hard top iteration.

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So who is going to be the first to implement paddle shifters on the 818? Could be a fun/interesting project.

I'm going with upgraded bushing and a short shifter. I think that will be enough to make the shifting "good enough."

The shifter won't be the Subaru shifter. I think someone said its sourced from a boxster.

^Well that's good to know.

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Originally Posted by metalmaker12

I have owned
1986 Corrolla Stock, first car
1994 GSR Turbo
2003 VW GTI 1.8 with APR turbo kit
2000 Civic Hatch with GSR engine tranny
2002 Miata stock
2001 S2000
2004 STI Cobb stage 2 ppg 6 speed, i bought it witha built ppg tranny
2002 WRX Stock
2006 STI with 400-500whp
2009 Honda Fit stock

I think the 04 Sti ppg and S2000 shifted the best, than the Gsr, than the Wrx. The wrx is mussy stock, but it is bushings and short throw shifter which brings sexy back.
The S2000 is a fun great shifting car, but no low end power and the car is too heavy. I would like one to come out in the 2200-2400lbs area with a 2.4l with 270-300hp na



I think FFR has a great rep to get it done in this area. They are car guys/engineers, and don't want the tranny to feel indirect, long or sloppy.

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I actually forgot about the GSR. Drove one once and it was fantastic. Also agree with the S2K being way too heavy (and not a coupe!) Good to hear there is some variation of the STI that made your list. I also am hopeful that FF will address this issue (although it would be nice to hear some feedback from some of the testing sessions). Lastly, +1 on the Hot Rod beating the Lambo! What was also amazing was the fact that the other cars were competitive as well, with no traction control/paddle shifters and the like that help with lap times. Actually, I've always wondered how the other FF's shifted as well (would depend on tranny of course).

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Originally Posted by Mechie3

So who is going to be the first to implement paddle shifters on the 818? Could be a fun/interesting project.

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I plan on doing that. When I was up at the World of Wheels Show in Cinci OH, I talked with a man who said he was implementing paddle shifts on his car (forgot which type) and he had a DIY way of doing it involving air compressors or something of that sort. I haven't really looked into it much but now since I have my donor package might as wel start to figure this type of stuff out!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mechie3

So who is going to be the first to implement paddle shifters on the 818? Could be a fun/interesting project.

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I've thought about it with all the research I've been doing with my Forester. It's plug and play for any Subaru with a sport shift AT. I can't seem to find anyone who has been brave enough to try to wire it with a normal 4EAT. The transmission is a little different, it's not all just in the TCU. Since it'll be a few years for me before I get to build a 818, I was contemplating the newer direct injection NA engines with the CVT. I have a few years to figure it out.

I was thinking since the cable setup will already be push/pull replacing that with hydro/pneumatic/electric actuators shouldnt be hard. Just need to get aother actuator for the clutch and a control module to properly time the movement and keep track of gear selection and what cylinder needs to move along with an algorithm to solve issues like a failed shift.

yea it is sourced out, btw went to moochfeast

I drove a friends GC8 STi RA the other day with the 5spd transmission and I thought it shifted pretty well. It didn't feel as smooth as my 2008 Civic Type R that I had for a couple years, but still felt better than my Nissan Silvia S15 6spd.

if you really wanted to get into it, you could machine your own "center diff" section and make a full sequential box. you'd have to have 3, maybe 6 different solenoids to run the thing, and a good software to not try and hit 2 gears at once. BUT, that would "definitely" improve shift quality, if you wanted a paddle shift :)

lol sounds expensive

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Originally Posted by metalmaker12

lol sounds expensive

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I've been rowing manuals in probably atleast 20 or so out of the last 32 cars I've owned. The civics do well (I agree, I had two manuals) because they are shaft-connected manuals. Even then, they can do better (And I did) by getting rid of all shift bushings.

The T56 I had in my 94 Camaro Z28 was in my opinion the best manual I've driven. That was a long time ago, and I'm sure if I drove it now, I'd agree the shifts are long and somewhat heavy. Granted the T56 is now the 6060, and even converted to a 7 speed for the new C7, so they've probably got it a little bit better. Fantastic shift feel has a lot to do with inertia inside the gearbox and so high-torque gearboxes naturally feel truckish because of that. It's easy to build a great shifting Civic, Miata and even S2000 gearbox because they only need to design for, what, 200 foot pounds of torque?

I have a Neon SRT-4 right now that I wish I could use the drivetrain for the 818. Yeah I know it's a heavy engine, but it can make astonishing power. Nevertheless, the T850 transmission in it actually came from a European turbo-diesel minivan. Cable operated + high torque handling = terrible shift quality.

The thing is, if you improve upon where the factory "civilized" it, you can do wonders. I don't know how the factory subie shift cables run, but if they are like the T850, they run a sort of injection-molded, fixed, heim joint. The factory gets their "flex" via rubber bushings. Rubbish. I've been able to get quite a bit better shift feel by lopping off the factory heim joints (and rubber bushings) and replacing with steel "proper" heim joints (And no bushings at all). Much better feel, less drag because the articulation is now handled entirely by the heim joints instead of rubber bushing "compliance" and the shift cables are happier. Yes, there is more noise, and yes, there is (much) more transmitted vibration....but that's what machinery is supposed to feel like :)

Another thing that people might be able to do (Not sure if this is done on subie boxes) but work on the transmission innerds. Changing to lighter/stronger shift forks, changing synchro material, modifying synchro springs, modifying the synchro mating "teeth" and even (if you really want a race car) going with a dog box setup instead of helical gears. All of these things help.

Attachment 15544

If it is a boxter shifter, a couple companies sell prefabbed brackets to raise it up into a nice spot for racing, eliminating the giant shift lever.

@818

Very interesting, I've never heard of getting rid of shifter bushings. I also agree that I like a more mechanical feel as well (more vibration). The lack of that type of feel was lost quite a bit (at least in the Honda world) when they went to cable shifters (from the direct metal linkages), which again, the 818 is using.

A Boxster shifter would be ideal for this car. Like Longislandwrx pointed out, there are a lot of "accessories" for it. You could upgrade the plastic shift cable connectors to the GT3 style (Cuz the plastic will break over time)

^^ Attachment 15569

best of all they are all pretty cheap.