I was wondering if anyone has started thinking about using ISIS power or going with a car computer on their 818 build.
I personally like the idea of a car computer but am still undecided.
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I was wondering if anyone has started thinking about using ISIS power or going with a car computer on their 818 build.
I personally like the idea of a car computer but am still undecided.
I'm definitely thinking of going ISIS
What is ISIS?
http://www.isispower.com/index.html
Supposed to make wiring and diagnostics easier.
check it out, it's awesome. cleaner install, simple to add to, and does self diagnostics.
It's pretty cool stuff from what I've seen so far!
Also quite expensive! But what you can do with it is incredible!
I'm thinking of using ISIS as well. I'd love to replace the gauges with a hacked up Nexus 7 too, not sure what you'd need to do for that to be street legal...
Gauges are problematic if you can't pull the data via a CAN bus, ODBII works but it can be a bit 'laggy' so to speak. For dash software I think the most popular has been DashCommand:
http://www.palmerperformance.com/pro...mand/index.php
See here for dashes:
http://www.dashxl.net/
DashCommand has an Android app that should work on the Nexus 7.
Agreed it's cool, but $1600 for a "starter" kit?!? To save - and this is form THEIR website - 20 hours of wiring??? That's $80/hour! No thank you. I've got the time to spare. And in my case, I have zero apprehension about doing wiring. I've worked on MG electrical systems. After that, I fear NOTHING! LOL
Well, yeah. I mean that is one view but there is a bit more too it than that. The main part is it's ability to be very programmable and extremely flexible. As for it's use in a kit like the 818 which is designed to be *cheap*... I think it's probably a little out of it's scope.
It looks like they have a GTM programming configuration. It's probably not much different than what we'll need for the 818.
It would be nice to see either a group buy discount or a 818 owner discount. If the early 818 owners have a good experience with ISIS, later owners will be sure to follow. Especially if the later owners are also new to kit building and wary of having to do the wiring.
My cousin works at mp3car.com; I was thinking about doing something similar with a device for the Murtaya.
However, we tried a few things and my biggest issue is that the OBDII-based devices update so slowly...But if I can find something that can update quickly, I'd love to program a bunch of the car systems into a touchscreen-based system.
Mike
Yep, not sure about the Subaru ECU, if it outputs the CAN protocol through the OBDII type 'connector' then it will be fast enough for real time gauges but I have no idea if/when they support this.
But you're forgetting the weight savings aspect of ISIS. You can use the time you save wiring by drilling holes in the frame to save even more weight! Then you'll go faster and win all the prize monies!Quote:
Originally Posted by Xusia
Easy wiring and weight savings are nice, but the biggest advantage is that you don't use a chopped up corroded used harness. Flip thru the pic threads on the subject - IIRC the one showing an 85 pound jumble of factory wiring from a donor should be horrific enough.
Lets think about the design philosophy of car wiring from a maker - it's a necessary evil, they have a tight budget for it, they want it to assemble as easily as possible. It's hidden away in the dark recesses of the build, and every connector needs to be no brainer fast for the guy on the line. That puts the emphasis on value engineering and very low repairability. In the transportation field, auto wiring ranks dead last, on the rocky bottom of grade of quality or longevity. The connectors are rated at ten disconnects maximum, and as they age, they harden and fall apart. The actual wire is bare copper, no tinning, with a single coat of cheap insulation which works better at drawing moisture thru it than protection. The actual pin connectors are greased because the water resistant seals can't handle more than splashing from road use.
If you need more proof, Sandy will give it to you as a topical source, just like Katrina did - flood immersed cars are a major loss. The wiring harness sucks up water and immediately becomes a massive corrosion problem that can only be solved by tearing it all out. Nobody does that, it's simply economically unfeasible. They go to the salvage yard, totalled. You can get the mechanicals back to working order with a quick lube change, four wheelers do it all the time. They can't fix corroded wiring tho.
Old car restorers know a frame up rebuild means new harness. And those of us who drive old cars know the heartbreak of slowly failing circuits. Turn signals, door locks, window switches are the obvious ones, as voltage drop rises in the face of continued corrosion as the wire wicks in more condensation. Then the subtle problems become more obvious - 0-5VDC sensor circuits start being an issue. It's significant the makers knew this in the early days and published TSB's to fix new cars with problems, like Jeep. They had one out in 1989 to connect the crank sensor directly to the input plug on the computer - new short wire harness, punch a hole in the firewall, and repin, all in one kit. That was months before they built mine. They did not change production whatsoever, just let it crop up as a Customer Service issue.
That's a good example of Maker mentality. Don't rock the profit boat, run the cheapest wire possible, and just good enough for a repair under warranty if it needs it. After that, the harness becomes their best friend - planned obsolescence is a great incentive to buy a newer car.
ISIS is just one part of a system, tho. What it does as power cells and such is great, what YOU do with wiring it up can be even better. Any move up the scale of transportation wiring standards to marine or aircraft grade will be a major improvement. Consider tinned multistrand wire, which corrodes far less and much more slowly, double coat insulation which exposes nicks in the insulation with it's dual color layers, high disconnect rated terminals that you can actually work with, complete shrink wrapped looms to protect against water intrusion, etc. It's no joke that marine and military grade looms are rated for water immersion, not just splash. They have to be. Cars? Nope, do not pass Go, take that junk directly to the wrecking yard.
Ask the guys who race at Bonneville. One trip will wreck the average wiring system in a few short months. They build to military grade - no sense replacing a harness every trip out to the Salt.
In the perspective of building a car that exemplifies a higher standard, it's really ironic that guys will spend thousands of dollars on CNC aluminum parts for a minor incremental increase in horsepower, then wire the car with low grade used junk from a wreck. Look at the cars at a show, all gleaming under the hood, major injections of testosterone with Brand name parts hanging from every bolt hole, but when it comes to getting twelve volts from the alternator to the coil, clueless. What does that say about the builders skills vs. his credit card score?
No, I'm not a shill for ISIS, just saying - things are not very balanced in the American "haute" rod culture.
^^^ Godd info/opinion. Thanks for sharing
No "approved donor" Impreza ('02-'07) was CANBUS.
I think a drivers car like the 818 needs real gauges. Something about LCD screens is just "off". I'm not sure if it's responce, detail, or what, but real needles and real shadows, and real motion is just so much better for the overall experiance.
As far as wiring, I think many folks tend to "overspend" in this area because they don't really understand it and treat it like a black art. Hell, I feel that way about paint and bodywork.
Tirod, excellent explanation! I installed I-Squared systems (the first ISIS system) in my Mk3 roadster and it was lighter, more reliable, more versitile and much easier to install than the old donor wiring. The modules also make diagnosing any problems a simple matter, which can be a tedious chore with OE systems. When I showed my Mk3 at the Barrett-Jackson auction the wiring system was a popular feature with tire kickers and the buyer. I'll put ISIS in my 818S, for sure.
Pete
While I don't disagree with your assertions, my own experiences with automotive wiring conflict with your conclusions.
Of course it's a jumble. It was removed from it's native environment, which it was designed and molded to fit perfectly. It was also designed to support many things we don't need on the 818. It can be pared down, if that's your thing. But I think you are missing 2 HUGE advantages of the OEM harness:Quote:
Originally Posted by tirod
1. It was purpose built to support every single component in the donor vehicle perfectly. It's performance and pitfalls are well known and documented. And if there are problems, many more resources are available.
2. PRICE. It's free! It comes WITH the donor. Many are interested in the 818 because it's the first kit they can afford (I should know - I'm in that camp), so price can't easily be dismissed. It's a factor for many.
It's not a necessary evil, for crying out loud, it's just another part of the car. Yes, like EVERY part, it's likely designed to be "just good enough" so they can sell the car as inexpensively as possible, and at a profit. Can you name a single product that isn't?? It's a business...Quote:
Originally Posted by tirod
The fact is that customers don't care about the wiring as long as it works. And on that topic, I'm one of those rare people that keep cars for long periods of time. Nearly every car I've had has been high mileage. And I've NEVER ONCE had even a single problem with the OEM wiring. Did I mention I live in rainy Oregon? I also like to ski, so practically every vehicle I've ever owned has seen generous amounts of time in the rain and snow.
Certainly this isn't scientific proof, but it lends credence to my assertion that the OEM harness works well and is designed "well enough."
I don't think it's reasonable to expect cars to be OK after floods, and picking on the OEM harness is flawed logic. The actual electronics (ECU, stereo, etc.) probably won't be OK. Does that mean they are poorly designed? What about the upholstery? I'm sure a washing won't fix it, so it must be poorly designed.Quote:
Originally Posted by tirod
The wiring was not designed to withstand a flood, but it doesn't need to be! That's an extreme case and not the normal environment for a car! Come on, here!
And comparing a car to an ATV is just plain wrong (and more flawed logic). ATVs are purpose built to withstand harsh treatment and rough environments, including deep water, mud, etc. Cars are built with different goals in mind. If you are going to compare those, you might as well assert most planes are poorly designed because they can't hover like a helicopter.
The difference here is the age of the car. The oldest donor for the 818 is 10 years old. What you are talking about above is a vehicle far, FAR older. Of course things are going to need to be replaced on a car of significant age, and I could totally see how the wiring harness might be among those things. In this situation an aftermarket wiring harness makes completes sense. The wiring in a 10 year old donor should be fine for many more years.Quote:
Originally Posted by tirod
The automotive industry is fraught with such examples, and they aren't limited to electrical issues. Picking on the wiring harness is unjustifed.Quote:
Originally Posted by tirod
As I said before, nearly every part on every product is designed as cheaply as possible to accomplish it's intended function. Because most people don't care, as long as it works. Planned obsolescence is hardly new, and is not limited to wiring. In fact, it's not even limited to the automotive industry. Just ask Apple!Quote:
Originally Posted by tirod
I agree the ISIS system seems good and would be an improvement. Speaking only for myself, I'm not the kind to spend extra money to replace something that is free (i.e. comes with the donor) and works perfectly well. Obviously you feel differently. And that's OK. A lot of people are planning to upgrade their wheels too; something I most likely will not be doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by tirod
My main gripe with your post is that you are bashing the OEM wiring harness unfairly. It DOES exactly what it was DESIGNED TO DO, and it does it well enough. Sure, it's limited to the environment and parts it was designed for, but that fits our needs for the 818 perfectly.
I could be off here, but I'm thinking a boat is more likely to be immersed in water than a car. Military vehicles too. I don't plan to travel across open terrain and invade Canada or Mexico with my 818, so hopefully I'll be OK! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by tirod
Many people will opt for bling at any number of places (hoses, clamps, fittings, interior, whatever), and that may extend to the wiring harness as well. If that's you, cool! But don't knock the OEM harness just because you favor something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by tirod
Well said, I will be using the donor harness too. That is unless the donor was sheared in half, but then again I'll pass up those donors. ..lol
all this over a wiring system? can't wait until these cars start being delivered! DING! DING!
Lots of good points stated here, Xusia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xusia
I too am a proponent of using as much from the donor as possible (I have proof).
In no way am I knocking ISIS. It’s a great system. Just be prepared to have your wallet lightened. The prices have increased 50%+ in the last year. The 3-cell starter kit was ~$999 a year ago and now its $1,552.50. The in-touch was ~$999 and is currently $1,723.85.
In the end....It's your build and to each his own.
Haha... I would end up using the OEM harness as well. wiring really isn't that bad once you figure or what you are looking at. I would suggest getting a wiring diagram and putting everything in making sure it works then trimming it down after that. If you don't want to solder, you can just crimp the wires together.Quote:
Originally Posted by carbon fiber
i plan on using it in my gtm build. to me it's less about the trouble, more about the cleanliness of the install and the self diagnostics. if you don't like it you don't have to buy it.
I'm with Xusia here. I have an Electronics background. Everything tirod said is accurate, except, as Xusia pointed out, the parts about how the conclusion is the OEM wiring is underengineered. A system like the ISIS would definitly be an improvement. Each one just has to ask himself if that improvement is worth the $.
We will all probably make improvements to the 'base' 818 build. Each one will spend on the things that are of value to them. Maybe that is brakes, or suspension, or motor, or appearance, or for some, wiring.
For me, the OEM harness will be all I'm looking for. It seems to perfectly fit one aspect of the 818 concept I really find appealing, cost/reusability.
For me if cost was no object(25-30K) then ISIS would be part of the build. However a top of some sort, powder coated frame, delivery charges ect. will already push the cost close to 20k.
It starts to add up quickly.
Hopefully the frame will come with pc like the GTM.
Powder coating is listed as an option on the pre order form.Quote:
Originally Posted by VD2021