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Currently working on wiring and engine assembly and started thinking about traction control. What does the collective wisdom of the forum say about traction control? Not needed at all? A helpful nice-to-have? I’ve never driven an Mk4 so I have no idea what to expect.
Thankful for any and all input
You already have traction control. Your right foot. :rolleyes: Seriously, there are aftermarket products out there. But they are rarely mentioned on builds here. Some install OE ABS setups, but having worked in that industry, I'm not a fan of adapting systems into cars they weren't designed for. There are variables, e.g. how/where you plan to drive. Track or street for example. These are usually fair weather cars, so don't normally spend a lot of time in the wet and in Texas you usually don't have snow or ice. Where the car doesn't belong. With a proper chassis setup, good tires, and driving habits that respect what you have, I think you'll be surprised how well the Mk4 drives. Trust your instincts and judgement. No need to rely on electronic assists in my experience.
For the very DIY crowd, Megasquirt has the ability to control traction. You just need a pair of sensors (front wheels and rear wheels) to tell the ECM what's what and it can be configured to retard timing or cut fuel when there's an inconsistency.
Part of the appeal in these cars is the raw experience of what they were 60 years ago. Now, they do have better brakes, and suspension, and stiffer frame, but how far do you go with addons. Then again, the part of the draw of these cars is the ability to make it your own. I personally love the feel of this car without any of the modern Detroit amenities. Like Edward B said. Your right foot is the traction control.
If you want to see some cool examples of traction control, check out the FAST (Factory Appearing Stock Tire) drag racing series. Those guys are launching 600+ hp on reproduction narrow bias ply tires from the 60's. The national record is held by a 1967 L88 Corvette at 9.102 @ 148.40 mph.Quote:
Originally Posted by TXeverydayDad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeplWZJdu08&t=28s
If traction control is available and has the option to turn off then install it. The right foot traction control is not exactly an answer. Turn it on when driving on public roads. Turn it off for track time where you can use that right foot traction control. I can't understand why one would not install it, if available, if it provides safety and some peace of mind for the owner with apprehension.
These cars are overpowered, underweight, and have a very short wheelbase...to quote a famous saying about these cars, they are "more willing to swap ends than Jenna Jameson". They're a handful if one is careless with them. I haven't seen too many folks incorporate TC in their builds, but it would be interesting. Personally, I like the visceral experience sans nannies.
Greg
Matt Bufford has incorporated traction control into his MKIV that he's currently building. I think he shows it in his build thread.
I agree with Edwardb that adapting OE systems into a car they weren't meant for is suboptimal. I've toyed with the idea of building a purely track-spec coupe-r with traction control and ABS as an ultimate track toy but have ruled that out (for a number of reasons). Personally, if I was going to install TC and ABS on one of these cars, I'd be looking at systems aimed at motorsport rather than adapting street car options. The motorsport systems are far more tunable to the needs and setup of the specific car. As you might imagine, they are the opposite of affordable.
For traction control, I'd look at using a Motec engine controller that has traction control capability (not all do). There are a few other brands like Holley that claim to have traction control but it is really targeted more at drag racing and should be called launch control, not traction control. The Motec system is truly motorsport-quality, tunable to the specific car, and adjustable in real time as track temps, tires, fuel load, etc. change.
For ABS, the gold standard in motorsport is the Bosch motorsport M5 ABS. It can also interface with the Motec system to share telemetry. This system is also tunable to the specific car and adjustable in real time. Note that going this route will require ditching the Wilwood pedal box and going with Tilton 800 or 900 series pedal assemblies so that you can run Tilton 79-series ABS-compatible master cylinders (Wilwood doesn't make an ABS compatible master cylinder). You'd also need to design mounts for the Bosch wheel speed sensors.
Once you price this all out, the sensible answer will be that it's just crazy to consider this for a street car but you asked, so.... :p
Thanks for all the input.
Since I’ve never driven one, it’s hard to know what it actually feels like, how sensitive the coyote accelerator is, and how difficult it would be to drive. I’m generally not a fan of electronic nannies but I’ve also seen a few pictures of roadsters in a ditch…
I would also assume that if it was really hard for a normal person to handle these without TC, there’d be more posts about it, which I haven’t seen. I’ll check out Matt’s build thread and see what’s involved in adding it.
The coyote is really a pretty docile engine. You'll be fine. If you want to add a simple layer of protection as you're learning the car, you could consider adding a Pedal Commander. This device plugs in in series with the throttle pedal and lets you choose different throttle pedal sensitivity profiles. You could put it in "rain mode" (or whatever they call it) while you're getting used to the car and the gradually transition to less and less nannying. When you don't need it any more you can just unplug it and sell it. In reality, it'll only take you a few drives to get used to the car. The only time I wish I had it was one time when I let a friend drive the car (the better answer is to not let friends drive your car :p)
Depends on the engine management. Back in the day I had a (now) old AF AEM EMS. In the software was a traction control table. The variables were time vs rpm vs speed. Meaning that if the ECU saw RPM accelerating faster than it should it would pull power. VSS was used as a gain of sorts. Pretty cool and worked ok. The tricky part was figuring out where that magic line of traction and slip occurred. I used the drag strip and slicks to get it close and monitor from there. Once the tire start to slip it takes a LOT of power reduction to get things back under control and then how fast to bring the power back in. It definitely wasn't plug and play.
The Coyote DBW (drive by wire) accelerator function can be tuned to be as sensitive (or not) as part of your custom tune. Lund has done my tunes and I've asked them to adjust it before. Or there are aftermarket add-ons as mentioned. But in general, the Coyote is easy to drive. I tell everyone it's as mild or wild as you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by TXeverydayDad
Yup, and every one has a story and happened for a reason. The car must be respected. I know details of several and traction control wouldn't have helped. Just saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by TXeverydayDad
A friend of mine installed a Racelogic traction control system on his supercharged 600+hp coyote. It was a huge expense and a wiring nightmare. It unknowingly failed on him. He swapped ends and crashed when he put his foot to the floor coming out of a turn and the nanny wasn't there to moderate him. New body / paint, wheels, and some suspension parts. I have to say, if he had just learned to drive the car and not depend on TC it wouldn't have happened.
I tried to get him to do a season of autocross, which will teach you more than any amount of driving on the street, but he didn't bother with it.
Terminator X or dominator. Really the superior control system here, you can do A LOT with these ecus. Front wheel sensor, driveshaft sensor. Can cut injectors or coils etc. Can turn on and off whenever you want. I’m going to try it out and see how it works, power comes on instantly in the LT.
Several aftermarket EFI systems have the ability to do traction control. I added it to my car using Holley HP ECU. You must add speed sensors to the front wheels and drive shaft. By building some advanced tables you can define what you want it to do. If the drive shaft speed is greater than the front wheel speed it starts removing timing. The greater the difference the more it removes. It works great but most of the time I leave it off because it's more fun without it! There several aftermarket products out there work even better, but cost quite a bit.
Bob
Yes, your right foot -- though I've lamented not have some of the modern TC/ABS features.
Best advice, for starters: Read 'freddiehebert' and his "A few reminders to all owners & a good read for soon to be's"
(this lives at the beginning of the Roadster category in the Forum.)
Next best advice: no one drives the car w/o having read this and then discussed it with the car owner.
It has a comical side to it, but it is a deadly serious set of precepts -- many need to be internalized.
(Laminate it and keep in in the car, haha!)
I once heard it said that the throttle (in any car) is like a hinge. It goes BOTH ways, up and down.
That is all :)
Jeff
Traction control should be between your two ears, and your foot. If you aren't mature enough to be able to do this, then I don't think this is a car for you. These cars can hurt you faster than an eye blink
Think this should be an imperative for anyone driving one of these cars regardless of horsepower. Beside most local AutoX events are a lot of fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalanche325
Of course there are Cobras in a ditch. Have you ever watched Youtube videos of traction controlled Mustangs or Corvettes leaving car shows. It's hilarious to watch them spin around like a top.
My own traction control is my old butt not wanting to die. If I had this car when I was 20 I wouldn't be here typing on this keyboard.
All good input! Thanks! Good to know that the Coyote can be as mild or wild as desired. I cannot stand a slow responding acc pedal so good to know it is tunable…
and yes, all the mustangs, vettes, bmws in ditches after a car show…all due to lack of respect for the vehicle. Traction control is most often switched off in those circumstances, irrespective of whether it’s the electronic kind or the between your ears kind (often both).
If traction control is what you are looking for I highly recommend a performance driving school. It will cost the same as any of these systems, but the skills will be invaluable.
Sticky tires are definitely part of the equation. I started off with some sumitomos that were very poor in the grip department. I was an accident waiting to happen even with the smooth acceleration of the coyote. Switched to Nitto 01 on rear, 05 front. Much safer.
Although the Coyote is powerful, it is can be easily driven and enjoyed below 3,000rpm all day long, without any fear.
Cheers,
Nige
Last year I swapped out my Nitto-555's for Nitto NT05's and it made a huge difference.
The car hooks well and has run as quick as 11.30 @ 124 MPH.
I do need to work on my launching technique.
https://youtu.be/iwslgKJUaKc
Get Good Sticky Tires & You'll Be Fine!
I will go a little against the grain re; sticky tires. I'd actually recommend standard tires like the 555s. My reasoning is that almost no matter the tire it is pretty easy to break them loose. A standard tire will have that happen at a lower speed/throttle input so it will be easier to control and recover from. OTOH I whole heartedly recommend a season of autocross as mentioned by Avalanche and Bear.
I had a 93 Lexus LS400 with traction control, at least it had the button. In WI winter it made no contribution to traction.
More recently I had a 2010 Acura TL with SH AWD (Super Handling) It was extremely competent and the dash display indicated what the system was doing when traction was exceeded.
Launching WOT straight would bark the front tires for 0.5 seconds. Launching WOT into a 90 degree turn would bark the inside tires for 0.5 seconds.
I cannot guess what it cost to develop that system, or manufacture it.
A year ago I drove a buddy's 2021 Porsche 4S AWD 3.0 twin turbo Targa @ 465hp on the TN Tail of the Dragon. It was otherworldly, as hard as I hammered it there was no sliding.
Methinks I can not engineer a system as competently as Acura or Porsche. When you get in over your head, will your DIY stability system save your butt?
jim
"Otherworldly" is the perfect description of Porsche ABS and TC. What those cars can do defies the laws of physics.
Hey TX Dad, I'm with you on this quest, let's compare notes!
I think some of the posts on this thread are a bit flippant, not really paying much mind to the fact that you crashed your mk4 and are now looking to add a little bit extra safety to your mk5. This is a totally reasonable thing to do, and just telling you to "toughen up and love the 1960's tech" or "get better" isn't particularly helpful.
I intend to go to a high performance driving school, and I think that's a good suggestion, but it doesn't answer the actual question, what about traction control?
Texas sees plenty of rain and wet roads, as does my native Seattle. I'd like to have a car that can be safe(r) on a wet road than one that is desert-dry-road only.
I did some research and this is what I found out.
* Holley Terminator X Max *would* be a nice option, but only for a gen 1 or 2 Coyote, you've already got a gen 4x, so that's no good. I also am planning to buy the gen 4x coyote, so we're in the same boat for the Holley option.
* RaceTCS (specifically v3) looks like a decent aftermarket option for adding TC to an existing ECU. I've sent a query to the maker about Coyote 4x control pack support. My AI research buddy (Grok in this case) thought that they would need to swap some transistors at the factory (+$50?) for coyote support. I'll update when I get that info back. It's listed as 'track only', but I think it could be tuned for milder street focus? Integrates with stock wheel speed sensors (see ABS below).
* Davis Technologies has an alternative that uses a different sensor approach. I didn't go very far researching this one, because the RaceTCS sensor pattern fits with my ABS plan.
* some aftermarket race ECUs exist with traction control, but they seem pretty race focused and very DIY for setup, I'm not sure how well they'd handle a coyote and how much work it would be to set one up. The holley seemed best for aftermarket ECU, but it only supports the earlier coyotes.
ABS option?
I am running the 11" 'stock' brakes in front (SN95) and 13" GT IRS brakes in the rear (S550). I did some research (again with a heavily coached AI) and determined that the Ford '15-'17 HCU should work for ABS in my setup. I would need to add wheel sensors, with custom brackets to position the sensors, but both brake types (SN95 and S550) have 50 notch tone rings that should be compatible with both generations of sensor. So I ordered some S550 sensors (mustang 2015-2020) I can provide the exact part #'s, but they are the ones that match the HCU: the front passenger and driver are different sensors, but the rear uses the same sensor on both sides (symmetrical).
I hope that using Mustang brakes, Mustang ABS, Mustang sensors and Mustang ECU should keep all of the parts of the ABS setup playing well together. The RaceTCS is intended as an aftermarket tool, that supports coyote swaps, and that's effectively what we're dealing with in a kit car, so it should play along as well.
Apparently (I haven't tried any of this yet), it should work to splice the sensor into both the HCU and the RaceTCS or its purposes, and I may also need to disable an ECU setting that would be confused by the method the RaceTCS injection control works.
If this all goes according to plan, I should be able to get stock coyote ECU, playing well with the remote brake booster (the FFR option), the ABS HCU and Race TCS for traction control.
It's all a bit speculative right now, and I'm researching the options and trying to piece together a plan.
I hope my research can help your quest to add a little modern safety features to the MK5. Please share back any learnings you find. Let's work together on this project!
Uh... check the dates. The posts were before the Mk4 crash.Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingTosan
I like the idea of traction control, although, at least for me...knowing I had it, I would probably drive more aggressively just because.
Some of the new systems work really well, just look at the drag racing guys, there are 4000hp 3000lb cars going 5.80's @242mph in the 1320 on a 275 drag radial.
Ironic...
Jeff
Okay, you got me! Well played.Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardb
That excuses some of the flippancy, which I read as rather callus knowing the future crash was impending.
...But perhaps the traction control could have helped avert the crash that did happen.
Regardless, in researching traction control and abs options, I found this thread, and found the number of "git gud, lol"-sort of responses compared to the relatively low number of responses that actually addressed his question, was disappointing.
Anyway, enough of that, let's keep this thread's "traction control" enabled and discuss viable options.
I researched this extensively when I was considering building a coupe for track use. What you need to answer, first and foremost, is what type of TC system you want. Most of the "easy" systems (Holley, etc.) are purely drag focused, i.e., they will control wheel spin in a straight line pretty well. For road race (or just road) use, they are nowhere near as good as a road race-focused system. If was to go down that path for a track car, the best solution I found was a Motech ECU with TC (I believe it's an option, not standard in all their ECU's). It's a similar story for ABS, with the Bosch Motorsport ABS system being the gold standard. Both are VERY spendy, but also by far the best at what they do. I'm not convinced that a Holley-type TC system is of much value on the street.
Edit: Haha - I just realized that I gave largely the same answer a year ago. I guess my opinion remains unchanged. :)
Thanks for this. It’s been a busy week at work so haven’t been able to reply earlier.
I’ve been looking at RaceTCS and looking into potential wheel sensors but haven’t been able to devote much time to it yet. I’d be glad to work this together with you.
Traction control (even very basic) would definitely have prevented my crash, so it’s a must for my new build.
Do the FFR front spindles have holes for speed sensors? If not this could be a reason to go to the Ford spindles along w/ a Ford or aftermarket wheel bearing w/ the tone ring. Someone refresh my memory as to which of the Mustang spindles is the good one please.
The spindles do not but mounts for the sensors can be incorporated with some simple fabrication. The FFR supplied hubs are Mustang components so of course already have tone rings. The IRS rear can use OEM sensors and mounts. The preferred Mustang donor spindles are 1994/1995 with the dogleg steering arm but the FFR proprietary ones have much better geometry.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigS
Jeff
An update for you TX Dad, on my TCS + ABS plan. This is untested, just my plan that I am going to attempt.
According to another thread on this forum, RaceTCS v3 can work on a gen 3 coyote (likely also a 4X), with a special mod.
I contacted RaceTCS and below is what they recommended.
Since I need wheel sensors for RaceTCS, I am also going to install ABS, why not? it needs the same sensors. So I am sourcing a mustang ABS system and hoping for the best at integrating it. The forums recommended an older era system, but I couldn't source the HCU for that, so I'm trying the one that matches my rear brakes (2015 IRS).
Since my brakes are from two compatible eras of mustang brakes for that ABS (in terms of tone rings), I think the sensors that match the HCU should work for both front and rear.
Here's the setup I am going to try (not succeeded yet!)
- Race TCS v3 (with passive coils) - this is the coyote gen 3 (and maybe gen4) modded version, earlier coyotes could probably use the standard one
- Race TCS v3 EV6/EV14 wheel speed sensor harness
- Ford ABS HSU (used) - S550 mustang (shelby/GT350) 4-channel HCU
- Ford ABS sensors (new, aftermarket compatible) - Front driver, front passenger, 2x rear sensors from S550 mustangs
+ custom mounting brackets for mounting the sensors (apparently Russ Thompson used to make some brackets, but they aren't available anymore)
I will update with more info when I get it, but that is The Plan. I recommend doing your own research to double-check, but this might be a good start?
Thanks for sharing the plan. I'm working through everything as well and have a similar plan.
- RaceTCS v3 (passive coils) - the thing i'm not too happy about is that it cuts the spark and not the fuel, but it seems to be the only way to do it with this system for a Coyote.
- I'm skipping the sensor harness. I'll just wire everything myself.
- Not doing ABS, so skipping that as well
- Ford sensors - using 2x FR3Z2C190B for the rear and 2 x FR3Z2C205A for the front. Ford shows different part numbers for the front driver/pass sensors, but I figured the only difference is how the cable is fastened, and not the sensor itself.
The software included with the RaceTCS system enables configuration around number of tone ring teeth etc, so even if equipment is different, the SW should be able to match it anyway.
I'm not completely sure on how to mount the sensor. The rears fit vertically into the hub so no issues there. The front, I'm not sure whether the sensor should be vertical or horizontal, or if it matters. Main things seems to be to make sure it's completely stable to get a consistent signal. The air gap should be between 0.4mm-1.3mm (0.016-0.05"), which is not alot.