These designs are missing the spirit?

I'm just getting in on the 818 conversation, and some ppl might hate on me for some of these comments or for bringing up something thats been talked to death BUT...

Two points on the design:

Shouldn't the new 818 include design elements that link it to the GTM? Or at least FFR? Something tie these new designs together, and any future models, as definitive FFR designs. I looked over the GTM pictures again, haven't ever seen one in person, with greater detail, as well as watched the Gen II video, but really there isn't a whole lot that stands out as a obvious manufacture detail, nothing "screams" FFR for sure. But someone with a better eye and actual design, specifically automotive, training should be able find a design that says FFR without being a "mini-me" of the GTM.

Point number two:
From the forums it looks as a lot of the contributors are Subie fans, as I am, and I would think a lot of the customers are of the "Fast and Furious" generation (I mean the first movie, the one that was actually about real cars, cars many young guys dreamed of owning), I'm surprised that there weren't many designs with "tuner" design cues. If this is marketed toward a younger age group then say the Mk4 and even the GTM because of it's price tag, I would think it would do better sales if it reminded me of those cars I dreamed of owning when I looked through all my copies of Sport Compact Car. BUT at the same time DO NOT look "ricey."

Honestly, only a couple of these cars do the HoF thing for me but I just can't picture those with that off beat burble that is the unmistakable exhaust note of a WRX.

Andrew

*sniff sniff, I smells a troll* (but I will answer respectfully)

On your first point, that makes sense when you are a big auto maker that HAS a common theme throughout the designs. If FFR is going to create a common theme in the future, I doubt it will be fashioned after the iconic cars it has paid homage to.
If anything, future designs would be created in a common theme to the 818 as this is FFR's first all original design.

Saying that you want someone with real design and automotive experience? You risk putting off quite a few people with that comment. I don't think you will find a better overall group of folks, and many have poured their souls into these designs. You have automotive know-how, amazing designers, and one hell of a sample population of the target market segment collaborating in this community.

As for your second point-
I don't believe there were any cars in fast and the furious that WEREN'T ricey. And the overall fashion follows function in all the candidate designs as it should. If the designs aren't "tuner" or "fast and furious" enough for you and you dream of owning cars in 'sport compact car,' it sounds like the 818 may not suit your preferences.

PS - I am a card carrying member of the 'younger age group' you refer to.

Well Voz, you seem to be very good at twisting ppls words or misunderstanding them completely...

I believe the GTM is FFR's first original design, or can you tell me what it is a replica of?
I specifically said the 818 should relate to the GTM, I doubt this new model should relate to the '33 Hot Rod, that wouldn't make much sense. But there should be a styling cue, a "family resemblance" across new, original models.

If you reread my post you'll notice I never said the word "experience" but "better eye and actual design, specifically automotive, training." That could be a graphic designer, mechanic, engineer, or someone who has taken a one day or online software course... I couldn't make a tricycle with Photoshop if my life depended on it, let alone put my ideas into a 3D model. The point I was implying was someone other then me. If you continue on in the post, I said that some of the models were HoF for me, I'm pretty sure I didn't put anyone "off".

For the second point, the example of the movie "Fast and Furious" was to show the excitement, passion that generation had about the movie, I clearly said "DO NOT look "ricey." " I want the 818 to look fabulous and original but the look needs to fit the pedigree, just like the GTM looks like it should have the LS series engines in it and you wouldn't put a 400HP 347 Stroker in a Mazda RX-7 or whatever.

I don't think any of the good, quality designs that were put forth are the look of a car that is has the soul of a rally car in it.

So instead of looking for holes in someone's argument or thoughts, or change what they said to make yourself look "right", look at the bottom line, literally in this case;

"Honestly, only a couple of these cars do the HoF thing for me but I just can't picture those with that off beat burble that is the unmistakable exhaust note of a WRX."


And yes, I think the 818 is what I'm looking for, I've had my sup'ed up Civic, amongst other cars, and now I want real performance with out the price of adding 10 more years till retirement. I'm just being part of the community and throwing int my two cents...

Andrew

Who wouldn't put what where? :o

Lol, yeah, I had trouble with the RX-7 example cause just about every engine swap possible has been done at some point... We'd stick just anything anywhere just to see if it works ;)

OP consider who you are talking to. There are a lot of subbie enthusiasts here but a lot of american classic car gear heads as well. Most of FFR's niche are in the baby boomer generation. To come touting how young and hip you are, won't turn heads or change minds.

Just because the 818 has a japanese heart doesn't mean it has too look like a Fast and Furious car. It should be its own thing. Among both tuners and kit cars, the concept slready us unique. Lightweight performance, sky's the limit power, and affordability. This car, if pulled off will break the mold. I really don't sigh why the design shoulcn't do that.

If you want the tuner look, the car is customizable. You are free the put as many decals, leds, subwoofers, and import models on it as you like. But not everyone is going for that. In addition, think of makes a tunrr a tuner. Civic type-r, rsx, evo, sti, gti.... most cars on that list are modified economy or mid sized cars. Their styling cues are little modifications. Take the evo x, it has the more aggresuve front lip, bigger spoiler, and some other things....but it is pretty close to a lancer. The 818 does not have a lineage or pay homage to anything-most certainly be its own thing.

Anyway haters gone hate.

I'm not hating, I'm very excuted about the project but your aren't getting real sense of what I'm saying. I don't think a car that sounds like a WRX should look like a Lotus Elise.

I didn't post on here to change the project, Dave may never read my post or may assume I'm cracked but I'm just trying to get ppl thinking about the whole package.

If you haven't heard a WRX idling with a less restrictive exhaust then stock go to YouTube and search it. Then ask your self if it evokes the image of something like Whetstone's super slippery, sexy looking model? To me that should have the finely tuned sound of something higher end, not the banshee wail that spews from the pipes of the WRX. It's similar to the rough idle of a highly modded muscle car engine, one that sounds like it can barely idle, sitting under the hood of an Aston Martin. It just doesn't suit it.

Again, I'm not hating or a "troll" (whatever that implies), I'm presenting an outside idea, one that suggests looking at the whole experience of the car. Ferrari spends thousands on making sure their car sounds like a Ferrari by using a tuned exhaust!

And for the last time, I'm not a ricer, I will not put stickers on my car! LOL
Why are you guys so defensive?

Andrew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apurchase

Shouldn't the new 818 include design elements that link it to the GTM? Or at least FFR?

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Addressing your first point, The GTM was influenced by the GT-40 and the French VBM as I understand. A new direction with fresh ideas was sought.

http://dreamscar.pagesperso-orange.fr/VBM.htm

In addition, some may view the efforts of the other Smith brother as already covering the ground of legacy design.

Smyth Perfromance:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/29/r...orm/#continued
Attachment 6455

However, if you want rest assured that this base was covered in the design competition, then I can say that I did my best to touch it in one of my eight submissions - it apparently received no notice.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cpZZ3QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...eme4-front.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...heme4-rear.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...e4-section.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...heme4-side.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cheme4-top.jpg

This approach did not exactly net prime results, hard to rescale to required proportions.

Andrew, the GTM started out as a ford gt-40 replica and then FFR finally changed it into what it is today IMHO for the better because the parts are easier to find. The car (any model) that you build has to have parts and aftermarket support. As to the design I belive that most of the models that are being supported (the top 4) came from people that has some experience in design as well as many of the others. Please look up Rodney Olmos and see what he has done with his design. The main reason for the 818 is to appeal to a WORLD WIDE group of car guys that can build this with aftermarket support. Also you have to understand this car is being (built) by a small company with limited funds and they have not failed in the past. So hang around and follow all the threads (start from the beginning) and a lot of your qustiones will be answered. P.S I am an older person but I still like a lot of the newer cars (Wife's car is a GTI) so am not too worried about the sound especially if I can blow the doors of that same Lotus Elise. Also get what you were saying and it is a good point but due to the $$ it probably won't happen. As for the exaust note go to straight headers on a NA motor and it will sound more like a Porsche. LOL

I should note that I also looked at other cars in the FFR line-up to examine other "family traits". The Factory Five Spyder GT, caught my eye. I imagined what it would look like mid-engined and fitting the template. This is what I came up with.

Original FFR Spyder GT (basically a convertible version of a Cobra Daytona):
http://spydergt.com/blog/?p=1
Attachment 6459
Attachment 6460

My 7th scheme I was calling "The Italian".
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cpZZ4QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...EME7-FRONT.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...HEME7-REAR.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...E7-SECTION.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...HEME7-SIDE.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...CHEME7-TOP.jpg

Once again I emphasize that it got no notice by the judges at the competition that I know of.

Andrew,
First, welcome to the forum. I think everyone's opinions are valid to a point. I understand (I think) what you are saying about the exhaust note vs. the automobile that it is coming out of. Just remember, these are cars that you build yourself. You modify them any way you want, and make them sound any way that you want with mufflers of different types. As far as being a car with Factory Five lines, I think the best thing about this is that it does pay homage to the Factory Five linup. Put all their cars in a row and none of them look anywhere close to each other. So, continuing their heritage, this car, (or shall I say these cars since there will be more than one design built) will all be different from what Factory Five has built in the past. I am not a 20 something demographic anymore :) but this car appeals to me as a builder. Once you build your own car, from scratch, you WILL be hooked. Also, if you hang around here much, you will find that we all share the same general interest. Different strokes? Maybe. When I build this one, will it have stickers all over it and a fart can exhaust? Probably not, but, that's not to say others can't make it their own by doing that. Just my $.02. Again welcome to the group.

Hi Andrew,
You raise good points. Factory Five certainly has an opportunity to develop a degree of corporate recognition by using some GTM shaping with this 818 model. But within the component car industry how many can you look at and recognize the manufacturer? Did you watch the German video that was posted in the GTM section? The video did a review of a nicely done "Custom GT". My German is not so good, but I didn't hear reference to Factory Five. It would appear that turning out a well-designed component package is a higher priority to F5.

Nickspawpaw has it exactly right. You can build any way you want to. It's that way with any vehicle. For example, there are many Porsche purists out there that follow a traditional path. Others go for a more wild "tuner" approach (google RAUH-Welt Begriff). :)
/bs

Welcome Andrew. Not sure if I am reading your thoughts correctly but I feel that the styling needs to be somewhat aggressive / radical (not import), think Italian supercar, to match the type of exhaust note that is so typically the Subaru flat 4. I will be a little disappointed if the final styling has the typical add on air dam / side skirt, rear wing type characteristics from the ricer scene. I fully expect to build an 818 but primarily as a track / auto x car so it needs to be functional in that regard, read aerodynamic, but not ricer-ish.

I think the "boxer rumble" will sound more appropriate on a low, mean exotic looking machine than on my sport wagon wrx. Even the sedan wrx/sti is a bit of a docile body type for the iconic boxer growl if you think about it. We're used to hearing that sound from 4door sedans wagons and hatches but it's a very exotic, unique and powerful noise that if you had never seen or heard a Subaru and you just heard the exhaust note by itself, you might wonder what type of exotic or special v-6 or v-8 sports car it came from.

One time I started my car up after playing a gig to warm it up and a group of bikers standing nearby said "what type of nut swaps a v-8 into a Mazda hatchback?"

Seriously, if you don't know anything about Subarus the sound they make seems very weird and mis-matched to the average bystander. Putting that sound in a true HoF mid-engined track-rod will illicit less head scratching from the uninformed public.

I understand what you are saying about the voice matching the face, as it were. You don't want it to be like seeing a radio personality for the first time. But I don't think the WRX boxer sound, that meaty, raspy voice, is going to be totally out of place in a more sophisticated package. Besides, none of the designs being considered are really sophisticated elegance. More sophisticated than a Fast and Furious Sport Compact, yes. But none are a Ferrari or Jag or Maserati. Some are sleek, some could be mistaken for a P-car, but they all kick arse. They have enough of that 'muscle' look, IMO, to pull off the WRX sound.

As for attracting the Fast and Furious crowd, well I think that is already happening. I don't think the car as to look like it came of that set of those movies to accomplish this. If the 818 looks like more than that demographic even hoped for in the Sport Compact dream car of their 'youth', I think it will be even more incentive for them to want to build it, not less.

So, I hear your concerns, and respoect them, but IMO, the current path the 818 is on, its all going to be OK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrandonDrums

I think the "boxer rumble" will sound more appropriate on a low, mean exotic looking machine than on my sport wagon wrx.

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That great rumble sound is one of the strongest things drawing me towards the 818. Does anyone know if there is a significant difference between the sound from a 2.0 liter to a 2.5 liter subaru motor? I've heard quite a few STI's with aftermarket exhausts that really sound great, but I was curious if the WRX sounds just as deep since it has a smaller displacement (at least the 2.0 model years).

Also, on the topic of this thread, I think an exotic elise like body would really be improved by the boxxer rumble. The swarming bees sound of an inline has been a turn off for me with the elise or atom.

While we are on the topic of exhaust note:
I am not a current Subie owner, nor am I in the 'subie crowd' just yet.

But I have to say, even though I know that the STI and other WRX's are supposed to sound like that, it still seems almost out of place to me. It's very much a Subie sound, but its kinda analogous to a Ducati dry clutch for me... The first time you hear one, you think something is broken. And although it is very characteristic, it never matches the platform.

In my opinion, I think the boxer exhaust note is going to be much better matched to say Rodney's 'bat outta hell' invoking design than it ever was a 4 door street going subaru.

WRX w/exhaust = auto equivalent of a sporting V-Twin?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oppenheimer

WRX w/exhaust = auto equivalent of a sporting V-Twin?

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I'd say that's a fair comparison.

I agree about the sound of the Subie flat 4 being a draw to the car, and I love the sounds of Ducati's. Just wonderful......

I think the choice of the Subie as a base for the 818 is a stroke of genius.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oppenheimer

WRX w/exhaust = auto equivalent of a sporting V-Twin?

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More apt than you think. Both engines get the distinct sound the same way; by emitting the exhaust pulses of two cylinders close together.

OP: if you don't think the Subaru rumble is appropriate, then fit an equal-length header to it. Much as I love the Subaru rumble, I plan to go equal length in my 818.

All this talk of the Subie sound brings back fond memories of the first time I heard the sound "uncorked" after installing a Stromung cat-back in my Impreza. Such a lovely deep growl :D

At the time, I thought oh what have I done, my car's bark does not match its bite... but I grew into it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apurchase

Honestly, only a couple of these cars do the HoF thing for me

Andrew

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I would say that is the same for most of us. There are several works in progress (refining) also.

OP,

I see where you are coming from but I completely disagree with you. I come from the "tuner" world having owned a supra, 370z, and a couple wrx's. I just happen to like japanese sports cars, but I can't stand the tuner crowd. I find myself transitioning to the track car crowd and this is where I envision this car really appealing to. This is the same crowd that buys a Lotus Elise/Exige for the pure driving experience and can forgive the daily driving short comings or takes an E30 BMW 325 and just tracks the **** out of it.

I think the WRX exhaust note is out of place in the WRX. I'm not a fan of exhaust notes in cars that don't look like they should have an exhaust note. I know the WRX is a performance based sedan, but it falls into this category. On the other hand, the 818 will be built to perform and mine will be as loud as I can get it. I honestly don't care too much about what it sounds like, as long as it performs awesome and looks awesome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GUNS

OP,
mine will be as loud as I can get it.

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That's funny. I must be getting old. I want mine as quite as possible. I would even go for some of the nicer Fast and Furious cars as long as they don't have that loud snoring sound.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...bm15042002.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...r/74000gtc.jpg
This is the car that ws the design idea for the GTM. It was around before the GTM and made in Europe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apurchase

Shouldn't the new 818 include design elements that link it to the GTM? Or at least FFR?

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I think the GTM is great for what it is, but I have no interest in owning/building one. Others have already suggested that the GTM was an evolution of at least one other vehicle. Truth be told, FFR's "design language" hasn't been established. This is the first truly unique vehicle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apurchase

From the forums it looks as a lot of the contributors are Subie fans, as I am, and I would think a lot of the customers are of the "Fast and Furious" generation, I'm surprised that there weren't many designs with "tuner" design cues. If this is marketed toward a younger age group then say the Mk4 and even the GTM because of it's price tag, I would think it would do better sales if it reminded me of those cars I dreamed of owning when I looked through all my copies of Sport Compact Car. BUT at the same time DO NOT look "ricey."

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That's hard to do. I was a tuner back in the day ('95 Eclipse GSX with a big 16G, etc, etc.) I started a local Eclipse car club (that still lives even though I haven't been apart of it for well over a decade) I now own a WRX daily driver (which has not been touched even though I've been tempted).

One of my friends said something that I took to heart, when a friend of ours was telling us a story how he destroyed a Ferrari in a light to light race. He turned to him and said, "yes but at that next light you were still driving a Eclipse and he was driving a Ferrari". I spent easily $50k on my GSX when I had it. I have no doubt I would have enjoyed a $50k car more than my Eclipse (even though my Eclipse was faster). I was a tuner because of necessity, because we made it better because it was all we had.

So I'm the generation of the Tuner, but I have no interest in a car that looks like that. I've grown up and my car is going to reflect that. Why would I want a tuned Civic when I could have an Exige or a Stratos?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apurchase

just like the GTM looks like it should have the LS series engines in it and you wouldn't put a 400HP 347 Stroker in a Mazda RX-7 or whatever.

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I dunno, I've seen multiple LS swapped FC's and FD's, and I think a ported turbo 3 rotor would be cool in a GTM. But then, I have issues.

I also see where you are coming from, I currently have a craving for a high strung, flat plane crank V8 in the worst way, just for the sound and the revs. Or the wail of an inline six at full song. Even though I have been playing with boxer 4 motors for years (air cooled, and water cooled), they really don't do much for me. I admit, slap some 280's on, ditch the mufflers, and a WRX sounds bad ***, but I have too many years off associating that sound with rally cars. But at the moment, this is really the only game in town.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitcarj

That's funny. I must be getting old. I want mine as quite as possible. I would even go for some of the nicer Fast and Furious cars as long as they don't have that loud snoring sound.

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Well mine's going to be a track car first street car second. I'll probably do one of those electronic exhaust cutouts so I can adjust the loudness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GUNS

Well mine's going to be a track car first street car second. I'll probably do one of those electronic exhaust cutouts so I can adjust the loudness.

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I know that some cars open up the exhaust path for more HP. Is that why these cars are so loud sometimes or is it just for noise usually. There are sound generators that you can use and make your car sound like other cars. Ferrari v-12 etc. Never looked into them but I always thought that would be great for an EV giving you the option of silence or muscle car sound. I guess they are putting sound generators on some EV's anyway for parking lot safety so pedestrians don't walk in front of you.

Every time I see one of those fart-blaster exhausts I have to laugh. Obviously a highly tuned car needs an exhaust with appropriate flow, but I SWEAR in most of the cases I see, the exhaust is far larger than necessary given the actual state of tune.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitcarj

That's funny. I must be getting old. I want mine as quite as possible. I would even go for some of the nicer Fast and Furious cars as long as they don't have that loud snoring sound.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by el_jefe

I dunno, I've seen multiple LS swapped FC's and FD's, and I think a ported turbo 3 rotor would be cool in a GTM. But then, I have issues.

I also see where you are coming from, I currently have a craving for a high strung, flat plane crank V8 in the worst way, just for the sound and the revs. Or the wail of an inline six at full song. Even though I have been playing with boxer 4 motors for years (air cooled, and water cooled), they really don't do much for me. I admit, slap some 280's on, ditch the mufflers, and a WRX sounds bad ***, but I have too many years off associating that sound with rally cars. But at the moment, this is really the only game in town.

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You are not the only one who has thought about a three rotor gtm......The only reason I haven't seriously considered it is the mating to the transmission.

OMFG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjYl7VfFKE
goto the 30 second mark and listen
thats what I want my 818 to sound like

Sounds like an angry badger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Niburu

OMFG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjYl7VfFKE
goto the 30 second mark and listen
thats what I want my 818 to sound like

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by vozproto

Sounds like an angry badger.

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which is kinda what Rodney O's car looks like kinda
see, perfect match

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Niburu

OMFG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjYl7VfFKE
goto the 30 second mark and listen
thats what I want my 818 to sound like

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Each to their own but that sounds like the driver has eaten too many beans!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Apple

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...bm15042002.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...r/74000gtc.jpg
This is the car that ws the design idea for the GTM. It was around before the GTM and made in Europe.

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Wow. I had always thought that the GTM was a completely original design that just borrowed a lot of inspration from the GT40. This car, however, is almost identcal to the GTM. What is it called?

Was the Spyder GT an original design? If the Spyder GT is really a copy of something, then I guess Factory Five's one and only original design would be this:
Attachment 6476

Both the type '65 and '65 GT spyder were built with the 1964/65 ****** Daytona coupe in mind.
Although there was never an OEM daytona convertible, you can imagine its a matter of engineering to go from coupe to spyder.

Edit: Wow... didn't know the manufacturer of the daytona and cobra were bad words around here. lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vozproto

Edit: Wow... didn't know the manufacturer of the daytona and cobra were bad words around here. lol

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litigious chicken farmers can get on anyones nerves