installing the rear toe adjustment arms - discrepancy in directions

looking at the directions from FFR

Attachment 124505 Attachment 124506

I know I'm missing part #1 and it on my "missing parts list" - BUT why do I have 2 RH and 2 LH rod ends?
Attachment 124508

and why do I not have 4 .25 spacers? I have 2 x .25" and 2 x 1.0"
Attachment 124509

plus when we put #5 bolt in location, should one side ride on the threads?

Attachment 124507

sorry, but the directions literally read "Assemble each of the toe adjustment arms as shown. Rough alignment length shown."

btw - the 4W edition of the directions has NO instructions for the lower control arms... (easy enough though)

Curious why you're saying you have 2 RH and 2 LH rod ends. (1) Instructions only show one pair (RH thread BTW) for the toe arm, (2) Your part listing (box-by-box) should have only shown one pair, which you should have checked off during your inventory. Why are you including the second pair in the parts you've gathered for the toe arm assembly?

Little bit the same answer for the spacers. Those also should have been accounted for during your inventory. Clearly the 1-inch one doesn't go here. That size is used for the coilovers if you're missing them there. There is maybe a little confusion though. The CAD drawing shows 1/4-inch on each side. Instructions I have say 1/4-inch on one side and a 1/8-inch on the other side. Can't remember off hand what sizes I used during my assembly. But should be pretty obvious when you put it together.

Agree best practice might not be to have threads in that hole. But the reality is when torqued to spec, the load is carried by the steel bushings held against the inside of the bracket. Should be little/no load of those threads against the inside of the hole. I don't think it's an issue and a bunch are assembled that way.

This is a pretty easy assembly. Instructions for the toe arm are in two places in all the instructions I have. More than what you list. Once for the inner connection, and then again later for the connection to the knuckle. But how much more instructions would you like?

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Originally Posted by edwardb

Curious why you're saying you have 2 RH and 2 LH rod ends. (1) Instructions only show one pair (RH thread BTW) for the toe arm, (2) Your part listing (box-by-box) should have only shown one pair, which you should have checked off during your inventory. Why are you including the second pair in the parts you've gathered for the toe arm assembly?

Little bit the same answer for the spacers. Those also should have been accounted for during your inventory. Clearly the 1-inch one doesn't go here. That size is used for the coilovers if you're missing them there. There is maybe a little confusion though. The CAD drawing shows 1/4-inch on each side. Instructions I have say 1/4-inch on one side and a 1/8-inch on the other side. Can't remember off hand what sizes I used during my assembly. But should be pretty obvious when you put it together.

Agree best practice might not be to have threads in that hole. But the reality is when torqued to spec, the load is carried by the steel bushings held against the inside of the bracket. Should be little/no load of those threads against the inside of the hole. I don't think it's an issue and a bunch are assembled that way.

This is a pretty easy assembly. Instructions for the toe arm are in two places in all the instructions I have. More than what you list. Once for the inner connection, and then again later for the connection to the knuckle. But how much more instructions would you like?

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good call on the thread issue, it will likely ride in the bushing... i'm learning that even though there's a build 'stage', I need to search ahead for the final assembly to answer some questions...

we did a full inventory, and there were "extra" items in some boxes - this was one of those boxes/bags - there are even left-hand nuts for the left-hand rod ends
the inventory sheet matches the bag contents, but doesn't align to the build sheet

the only place i see left-hand threaded rod ends is in the 3-link "upper link" suspension build

I'm wondering if I was shipped 2 RH and 2 LH rod ends, instead of 2 RH rod ends and 2 linkage adjusters?

it seems that the rod end directly next to the HHBOLT doesn't need a spacer as it would ride directly on the smooth spot of the bolt, the width of the rod end is nearly the same as the smooth part of the bolt
Attachment 124525

I may have to reach out to FFR on this one...

You don't have any of part number 1 in the drawing?

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Originally Posted by toadster

good call on the thread issue, it will likely ride in the bushing... i'm learning that even though there's a build 'stage', I need to search ahead for the final assembly to answer some questions...

we did a full inventory, and there were "extra" items in some boxes - this was one of those boxes/bags - there are even left-hand nuts for the left-hand rod ends
the inventory sheet matches the bag contents, but doesn't align to the build sheet

the only place i see left-hand threaded rod ends is in the 3-link "upper link" suspension build

I'm wondering if I was shipped 2 RH and 2 LH rod ends, instead of 2 RH rod ends and 2 linkage adjusters?

it seems that the rod end directly next to the HHBOLT doesn't need a spacer as it would ride directly on the smooth spot of the bolt, the width of the rod end is nearly the same as the smooth part of the bolt
Attachment 124525

I may have to reach out to FFR on this one...

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I'm confused by most of your responses. First you say there are "extra" parts in the bags. Then you said the contents match the inventory sheet. Can't be both. In multiple builds, I've had occasional wrong parts, which ultimately became extra parts. And I've had a couple instances where parts were shown as included but weren't. All quickly resolved by contacting Factory Five. But between the box-by-box inventory list and the POL list, once everything was properly accounted for, I've never had a mismatch to the parts actually required. That's why I always stress how important that step is, and how always to go back to that as the primary source. Yours isn't the first kit they've shipped and those lists are very accurate.

There are left hand nuts on the toe arm. So the ones you have are not necessarily for left hand threaded rod ends. One end of the adjuster has RH threads, the other LH threads. So when you turn the center adjuster, both ends go either in or out. Like a turnbuckle.

You said maybe they shipped the extra rod ends instead of the linkage adjusters. That shouldn't be a question. The adjusters are on the inventory sheet. If they weren't provided they should be on your POL. Refer to my first point.

If you look at where that rod end goes on the chassis, you'll see there's only enough space for the rod end and two small spacers. And if you don't center the rod end with the spacers, chances are it would hit against the chassis bracket with normal movement. That longer spacer won't go there no matter what. Where the threads are on the bolt doesn't matter as long as you can get the nut on the end and properly torqued. Same answer as before. The load is carried by the ends of the rod end (and spacers) against the inside of the frame member holding it. Not the threads.

Paul, it's good you are willing to help out. Clearly he's in over his head, unable to put together something so basic and simple.
I've already said, preassemble and mock everything up, but I guess thats too hard. There is a picture of all the parts, and how they go together, how f-ing hard is it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by edwardb

I'm confused by most of your responses. First you say there are "extra" parts in the bags. Then you said the contents match the inventory sheet. Can't be both. In multiple builds, I've had occasional wrong parts, which ultimately became extra parts. And I've had a couple instances where parts were shown as included but weren't. All quickly resolved by contacting Factory Five. But between the box-by-box inventory list and the POL list, once everything was properly accounted for, I've never had a mismatch to the parts actually required. That's why I always stress how important that step is, and how always to go back to that as the primary source. Yours isn't the first kit they've shipped and those lists are very accurate.

There are left hand nuts on the toe arm. So the ones you have are not necessarily for left hand threaded rod ends. One end of the adjuster has RH threads, the other LH threads. So when you turn the center adjuster, both ends go either in or out. Like a turnbuckle.

You said maybe they shipped the extra rod ends instead of the linkage adjusters. That shouldn't be a question. The adjusters are on the inventory sheet. If they weren't provided they should be on your POL. Refer to my first point.

If you look at where that rod end goes on the chassis, you'll see there's only enough space for the rod end and two small spacers. And if you don't center the rod end with the spacers, chances are it would hit against the chassis bracket with normal movement. That longer spacer won't go there no matter what. Where the threads are on the bolt doesn't matter as long as you can get the nut on the end and properly torqued. Same answer as before. The load is carried by the ends of the rod end (and spacers) against the inside of the frame member holding it. Not the threads.

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1. sorry for the confusion, there are 'wrong' parts that are just that 'extra parts' - these are above and beyond the inventory sheet.
2. as far as rod ends, I understand the turnbuckle concept - just like the upper control arms for the IFS - my concern here is that I believe I have 2 LH threaded rod ends that are "wrong parts" and will sit in my "extra items pile" - i.e. I don't need LH threaded rod ends
3. the adjusters are missing so they're on the POL
4. thanks for clarification on the spacers, I looked 7 pages ahead and it states this:

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Attach the toe arms to the frame below the front lower arm mount using the 1/8” thick spacer in the back
and the ¼” spacer on the front side of the rod end. Use the 5/8” x 2.25” bolts to attach them to the frame.
Torque bolts to 135Nm (100 lb-ft).

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so yet another discrepancy between the diagram (.25" vs .125" for the back spacer) between P92 vs P99 in version 4W
btw - I'm finding plenty of these things and sending back to FFR for clarification, correction... so the next guy has it even better
heck I even corrected stuff before I bought my kit LOL

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rich grsc
Paul, it's good you are willing to help out. Clearly he's in over his head, unable to put together something so basic and simple.
I've already said, preassemble and mock everything up, but I guess that's too hard. There is a picture of all the parts, and how they go together, how f-ing hard is it?

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thx for the feedback rich - I'm sure you're thinking, I'm just "another one" of those guys that will have to sell his kit in a year because he's not going to follow through...

well, I bought this kit with enthusiast knowledge of cars, I've never really been the wrenching type - I'm a computer engineer by trade, so I analyze and pick through stuff - sometimes too much, complicating things beyond the simplicity needed. I also bought this kit to LEARN, which is what I'm doing, and there are probably 5 guys reading this that were in a similar spot but didn't post - due to the "how f-ing hard is it?" comments

Sorry if I'm not Chip Foose, or Aaron Kaufman - but when I pre-assemble (as you suggest) and the parts and/or directions are wrong, I have to clarify with the prior experts and/or remedy them.

Toadster, sometimes the pictures in the manual associated with the assembly instructions aren't the best. Try searching through the manual looking for other pictures of the parts you are trying to assemble to get a better idea of what you are doing. Don't be surprised if you seem to have a few extra bolts, nuts, washers and spacers as FFR may have included things for some different assembly methods. I used a folding table covered with a white table cloth I stoled from the wife's linen closet to lay out any parts that I wanted to preassemble or were the next step to accomplish. I am a farm kid that has been repairing machinery and cars since I was 11 and I still took my time with the kit. More than once I was glad I followed my grandfather's advice when working on machinery to "never tighten one bolt on a part until all the others are in and you are sure it's put together right".

Take your time, search the manual, google search if confused and walk away when frustrated.

Remember this is supposed to be fun!

Good Luck

Norm

Todd, hang in there, pay no attention to negative comments from everyone that just won't take the time to help out. This forum, and the other one, are filled with builders/owners that have gone thru what you are going thru and made it thru the process, albeit sometimes painfully . . . Stick to your guns, double check whatever pictures or diagrams you have, ASK QUESTIONS, people will answer with constructive help. And by all means, when something just has you completely stumped, walk away for a day, work on something else. GOD knows there are more things to work on, on this project.

We have your back . . .

Doc

Thanks guys, appreciate the support - while I'm waiting for some POL items I am working forward on the rear IRS - just can't put the diff in yet due to 2 sleeves missing...
yes, I could get some parts and make it happen - but I already paid for the parts - and I'm content to wait LOL

already have the IRS LCAs pre-assembled, the rear spindles cut, the rear hubs with new lugs and found a great deal at Autozone for 2 quarts of Valvoline 75W-90 with friction modifier (both bottles for $20!)

I'll be spraying the half shafts today to protect them from the elements & surface rust

like you said Doc - there are PLENTY of things to work on ;)

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Originally Posted by toadster

...like you said Doc - there are PLENTY of things to work on ;)

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And you haven't even started drilling holes yet :p

Jeff

While assembling control arms and adjusting links, be sure to keep equal lengths of threads on each side of the adjuster.
edwardb pointed this out in one of his threads. It will save you cussing and time.

1. sorry for the confusion, there are 'wrong' parts that are just that 'extra parts' - these are above and beyond the inventory sheet. If they're not on the inventory sheet and are in fact extra, then set them aside and don't let them confuse you.

2. as far as rod ends, I understand the turnbuckle concept - just like the upper control arms for the IFS - my concern here is that I believe I have 2 LH threaded rod ends that are "wrong parts" and will sit in my "extra items pile" - i.e. I don't need LH threaded rod ends. So? You'll have plenty of extra parts. If you know they don't belong with this assembly don't worry about it.

3. the adjusters are missing so they're on the POL. That alone should have helped with any confusion.

4. thanks for clarification on the spacers, I looked 7 pages ahead and it states this... Yup, and that's not the only discrepancy you'll find in the build manual. Since you're in IT (I was too...) then you know how much work it is to keep user documentation up to date, especially with the pace of change these days. Not making excuses, but Factory Five is a small company and they could spend a whole bunch of full time effort keeping every single punctuation mark up to date. Nice that you're sending them errors you think you're finding. But personally I wouldn't bother. I'll bet they know about them and probably roll them out as revisions as time allows. As Rich has said a couple times, dive in and mock stuff up. 99% of the time you're going to find what works and move on. In this case, trying the rod end in the chassis mount would have made it obvious which spacers are required and let it end there.

I guess my main comment at this point would be yes we're here to help, and I'll keep trying. But you're just getting started and frankly (sorry to say this) what you're doing now is some of the easiest parts of the build. Pretty much everything can only go one way, so the manual is detailed with words, pictures and drawings that you're not going to find as much when you start doing fuel lines, brake lines, electrical, engine, body, etc. There are many more variables and there's a whole bunch of stuff you're going to need to work your way through without detailed pictures and steps in the manual. Don't be apologetic about being a beginner at this. I started at roughly the same place 10 years ago. Still not an expert by any means. Learn new stuff every day. But getting through a few builds is a good teacher. Point is you're going to need to roll up your sleeves and get a little more comfortable with ambiguity and thinking through things on your own. Sometimes you have to dive into things without knowing all the answers up front or where the process is going to take you. Otherwise you (and others) are going to get frustrated and it's going to stop being fun. The final comment is I hope you're spending time with build threads. There are a bunch out there with tons of great information and ideas. Study them, understand the thought process behind, try different things, and decide what works for you. A whole bunch of stuff you've asked about (in this thread plus others) has been discussed and shown in multiple build threads. Just my opinion and off my soapbox. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by CraigS

You don't have any of part number 1 in the drawing?

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no it's on my missing parts list to FFR

So, I read the above comment(s) and have re-written my post several times. And so I'm going to keep it direct and to the point:

@Rich, your comment was not helpful at all!

@Paul, it's GREAT that YOU are so very helpful and detailed too, on your each of your posts with a solid and complete explanation on the various topics and questions that are asked. It takes a lot of time from any individual to write up and explain various things and cover the complexity of a question or issue that will surely come up when taking this build journey. ALL seasoned builders should strive for such excellence! I know I will (DO and not just TRY) to be as thorough and complete, not only on my build, but share my knowledge where and when I can in the future...

HAH! Once again Paul, as I was typing this, you posted an eloquent response and so, I/WE salute you as an incredible master builder and teacher for that matter!

@Todd, keep going, doing and asking such questions that find you where you are puzzled or confused. These will no doubt be helpful to the community in the long run!

Whether anyone wants to believe it or not, it's these very kind of threads that do the following:
1.) Helps the person asking the silly question or dealing with the particular issue or problem at that time, to help them overcome and move beyond such obstacle(s).
2.) Helps a previous builder who has moved past a particular phase in their build(s) to either explain further in detail as to the question being posted. Perhaps they may have left out something in their particular build or more often direct them to their's or another specific build thread, which explains the solution. And if anything else, it will get those folks more "clicks;" Views, Likes, and Thanks counts too!
3.) And lastly of course, it's going to for sure help the new future builder when they too arrive at that particular step on their build. To learn from others on questions they asked or mistakes they made, means you utimately contributed to the overall success of the forum. To help someone not make the same mistake, which ultimately means your mistake was not in vain and brings value to everyone.

So, no matter what, for the sake of this forum and ourselves, can we all; bite our tongues, keep negative unproductive comments to ourselves and post entries that are more positive and helpful? Together, let's not let this community become toxic, negative and unhelpful, for which will just push away future build threads and ideas that get shared.

Not pointing fingers at anyone. I've just seen, well, actually many posts from various individuals that just make me roll my eyes as to why someone would reply and respond in such a negative way. If you got nothing helpful to add, well, then just move along to other thread(s).

Stay vigilant, safe, and positive in these strange and difficult times for all of us. Stress has a funny way of controlling our emotions. Fight back by realizing we are all in this together and we can overcome anything, if we ALL work together!

Okay, I too am stepping down from my (soap box) chassis dolly. :D

Dj

thanks guys... as you can tell from this pic, I'm waiting for a those few parts to put a LOT of stuff on the rear...

https://i.imgur.com/sM8qEmM.png

FYI - got feedback from Tony @ FFR

the spacers are correct in the schematic (P92), both sides of the toe end are .25 spacers
the directions on P99 (October 2019 4W) is incorrect and should state .25" spacer on both sides

Keep going the way you are Toadster. I am pretty sure I have read all your threads and haven't seen anything to bother me yet. My experience on this and 8-10 other forums is that most of their search functions suck. So one comes to a question, does a search, finds nothing to help, and therefore posts a new thread. No problem as far as I am concerned. Yeah someone can say that's been discussed plenty before but, when the blanking search comes up empty, how would you know that.

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Originally Posted by CraigS

...Yeah someone can say that's been discussed plenty before but, when the blanking search comes up empty, how would you know that.

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By using a decent search method. Forget the forum search engines. Use Google. Various methods. Mine is (from Google) enter "site thefactoryfiveforum.com/ xxx" without the quotes and xxx = whatever you want to search for. You can enter multiple words to narrow it down. Works for the other forum too. And any website for that matter. You'll get a nice list of responses with links to each.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CraigS

Keep going the way you are Toadster. I am pretty sure I have read all your threads and haven't seen anything to bother me yet. My experience on this and 8-10 other forums is that most of their search functions suck. So one comes to a question, does a search, finds nothing to help, and therefore posts a new thread. No problem as far as I am concerned. Yeah someone can say that's been discussed plenty before but, when the blanking search comes up empty, how would you know that.

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Thx Craig, I agree the search engine is hard, many times I find content that is over 10 years old... there should be a better level of archival, even when shortening the timeframes, etc. This subject didnt' come up

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Originally Posted by edwardb

By using a decent search method. Forget the forum search engines. Use Google. Various methods. Mine is (from Google) enter "site thefactoryfiveforum.com/ xxx" without the quotes and xxx = whatever you want to search for. You can enter multiple words to narrow it down. Works for the other forum too. And any website for that matter. You'll get a nice list of responses with links to each.

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Paul you are a maestro searcher as well! I'm curious if you can find who else has caught the .125 vs .25 spacer issue? and teach me your skills if you do!

EdwardB I will give that a shot next search. One of the two forums has a google window as a search option so I always use that. It may not be as good as your method though. Thanks.