Discoveries, spleen venting & 818C side windows

Folks, I've seen some jacked up stuff before, but I believe these windows & door frames were designed in an alternate universe! I now have over 35 hours in my passenger side door, a good portion of which was spent trying to adjust my power window guide! This shouldn't be, so I decided to poke around a bit. Here is what I've found out; the side window glass matches the curvature of the window opening. The window regulator curvature matches the window curvature. So why so difficult to adjust?
First off, the window regulator must be pulled in to allow the window to meet the weatherstrip at the hardtop window opening. If the bottom of the window doesn't touch the weatherstrip, this is a problem. Mine didn't come close, so I cut a section from the upper door frame tube to allow the window to meet the weatherstrip.
The real problem arises when the window is lowered. Because both the window and the regulator have the same radius, both radius center lines must coincide. Ours do not. This is why the window wants to move outward as it lowers. If you do manage to get your window to seal in the up position, it will not be even close in any other position. This also causes the window to catch the hard top if lowered below the door weatherstrip and attempt to raise the window! Bad!
If the two curved planes represented by the window and the regulator were to be brought into coincidence, the lower end of the regulator would end up inward of the lower door frame tube. This would fix the problem but necessitate a complete redesign of the door frame. We all know this won't happen.
Now for the good news! I've successfully added a second guide rail on the forward edge of the window glass. I scavenged a rail from my donor car & repurposed it. I ordered some felt window channel guide for the inside of the metal channel to protect the glass, and added edge trim to prevent the glass rubbing any of the channel. With the angle set at 14 degrees, same as the regulator, I made brackets for in/out, fore/aft adjustment. Next I removed most of the arch from the regulator by lightly working it with my press.
There's more...the slop in the regulator carriage. It is all over the map! To fix this, I made some bronze wear shoes to give more stability to the carrier. Two shoes on the aft side, one towards the front. A good slather of white lithium grease and finally I have a window that feels solid, raises and lowers as one should. Whew!
Now, I like a challenge. I also like a project. When I think of a kit, I think about something where the engineering has been done to accommodate the supplied parts. With this kit, it seems like the engineering work was left for the builder. Mounting and adjusting a window mechanism shouldn't take the better part of a week!
I'd like to hear what some of the rest of you have done to address this glaring problem!

Btw, the doors have other problems too, the ones I described just pertain to the window install.

This is the main reason I'm building a S.

give this a try.:rolleyes:

I've seen a lot of trouble with the windows. Not good. Your work, however, is always impressive. Don't suppose you have any pictures, do you? I'm sure I could learn a thing or three.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flynntuna

This is the main reason I'm building a S.

give this a try.:rolleyes:

---

hahahaha I have one of these in the shop, thanks to AZPete. It was a 818-warming gift on delivery day.

what additional parts did you utilize from the donor?

Bobncincy will be posting some pictures of my window mechanism as soon as I send them to him! Thanks Bob!

This is the sort of 'rough spot' that the 818 has that I wish the factory would address with some updates. Why leave the design for the doors so marginal? It has been my least enjoyable aspect of building this car, from their initial fit (rubbing everywhere that I cant get rid of without mis-aligning gaps), poor/no seals (why not? there are seals everywhere else?), body panel self destruction if opened too far, not great looking trim around window slits, poor fitting interior panels that I finally gave up on (will make my own, the factory set never flowed with any of the interior lines anyway). I probably missed some things too.

I really like my car and the factory has been always helpful along the way and I have enjoyed the project so far, but I hope the next gen 818 has some backwards compatible improvements. I hope there IS a next gen 818 for that matter, or at least the improvements!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ben1272

This is the sort of 'rough spot' that the 818 has that I wish the factory would address with some updates. Why leave the design for the doors so marginal? It has been my least enjoyable aspect of building this car, from their initial fit (rubbing everywhere that I cant get rid of without mis-aligning gaps), poor/no seals (why not? there are seals everywhere else?), body panel self destruction if opened too far, not great looking trim around window slits, poor fitting interior panels that I finally gave up on (will make my own, the factory set never flowed with any of the interior lines anyway). I probably missed some things too.

I really like my car and the factory has been always helpful along the way and I have enjoyed the project so far, but I hope the next gen 818 has some backwards compatible improvements. I hope there IS a next gen 818 for that matter, or at least the improvements!

---

I agree that the doors are a deceivingly difficult hurdle, but if you get them right, it should add significantly to your driving pleasure. I'm not into dogging FFR so I will spend my energy rectifying the challenges as they present themselves. This is exactly the type of difficulty that separates the well constructed cars from the rest of the pack. If it was easy, the cobra and GTM guys would be building one too!

I guess it is only dogging if you view it that way. I have been a designer/engineer for 25 years and personally like to hear the complaints/feedback so I can refine my craft. I hope the excellent folk at the factory take my comments in the same vein! I am the lead designer on a fishing line fixation system on the market (www.tautensports.com) and have had MANY share their complaints and criticisms.....I dont take any of it personally.

I have worked through other challenges and agree that nicely executed doors will be worth the extra effort. I may still do something crazy like A-pillar hinged, or scissor, etc. Otherwise, I think the OE doors could use a proper perimeter lip and seal(s) and I may give this a go. All that said, I still hope that the guys at FFR have some neat new stuff up their sleeves for the 818.

Ben, I agree that the doors need a perimeter seal so I used this rubber seal from Steele Rubber Products. It is sandwiched between the door panel and the door:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...4&d=1520194352

I then noticed a gap at the front edge of the door, so I made this baffle to attach to the door edge:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...5&d=1520194420

And then, there's more. I made a piece on the outside end of the dash that completes the door seal:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...6&d=1493867469

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AZPete

Ben, I agree that the doors need a perimeter seal so I used this rubber seal from Steele Rubber Products. It is sandwiched between the door panel and the door:


I then noticed a gap at the front edge of the door, so I made this baffle to attach to the door edge:


And then, there's more. I made a piece on the outside end of the dash that completes the door seal:

---

With all your door modifications, would you say that you're comfortable the car is leak free in the rain? Has it ever been parked outside for a bit while raining?

Rain? Not many chances here, but one day last Fall was solid rain all day. I drove my 818C 90 minutes, parked for 2 hours, then 90 minutes back on 75 mph freeway and city streets. I was amazed that the only leak was at the top of the windshield, which I've since fixed with a bit of black silicon sealant. The gap at the bottom of the A pillars didn't leak but I suppose because my HVAC air flow was outward. No window leaks. The rear hatch would fog up when stopped at red lights, but then clear up as soon as I started moving again because I've got vents cut at the back of the quarter windows. I'm glad I bought the front inner fender panels from FormaCars because they kept the front compartment clean and dry.

The door seals in this thread aren't needed to keep out water, but they reduce wind noise and hot or cold air.

Nut Plates: It really helps when aligning the doors! I made mine from 3/8" X 1 1/4" X 2 1/2" mild steel. Tap for 7/16-14 bolts.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...5&d=1520218024



Additional guide: This guide was repurposed from my donor's front door mechanism. I trimmed it for length and added studs on the spine for attachment points. Having the window clamped into the regulator helps when locating it. Put it on same angle(14 deg) as window regulator so that the front edge of the window engages the groove.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...6&d=1520218195


Guide shoes: You can see 2 of the 3 bronze guide shoes I made and attached with 10-32 screws. This picture was taken from the cockpit side of passenger door. Also of note is the sectioned area in upper door tube to allow regulator to be moved closer to the hard top window opening.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...7&d=1520218349

Window up: This shows that the window remains captured in the forward guide channel throughout its travel. The window is at the top of travel.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...8&d=1520218552


Window down: This shows the window at the bottom. The forward guide channel acts to pull the window inward at the bottom of travel to prevent window from catching on the hardtop when raised with the door closed. This isn't completely proper but it will work. It's a far cry from trying to use the unit as received.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...0&d=1520218666

Can you explain how the nut plates are used for aligning the doors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tgf05354

Can you explain how the nut plates are used for aligning the doors.

---

The bronze wear shoes just keep the alignment tongue engaged with the groove while also helping to limit fish tailing of window as it traverses its guide. The addition of the second guide further steadies the window as it travels but its primary reason is to control the rear of the window where it engages the window trim attached to the hardtop. There are other ways but this one worked for me and looks sturdy enough to withstand moderate to normal usage. It also helps for those people who insist on closing the door via pushing on the window!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tgf05354

Can you explain how the nut plates are used for aligning the doors.

---

My bad, the nut plates just negate the need to hold a wrench behind the hinge whenever the bolts are loosened enough to align the door.

Lance, your innovations for the windows are ingenious, as is the rest of your 818. I enjoy seeing your mods and admire your workmanship. I noticed, however, that you are using the metal door stop supplied by FFR, but I think the "Presley door stop" is better. Proposed by Wayne, of course, this is a threaded hole and a set screw in the donor hinge arm. It's adjustable and the lock nut means it stays set, rather than bending.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...1&d=1520270536


Your nut plates would have saved me a lot of time, and bad words. . . . Next time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AZPete

Lance, your innovations for the windows are ingenious, as is the rest of your 818. I enjoy seeing your mods and admire your workmanship. I noticed, however, that you are using the metal door stop supplied by FFR, but I think the "Presley door stop" is better. Proposed by Wayne, of course, this is a threaded hole and a set screw in the donor hinge arm. It's adjustable and the lock nut means it stays set, rather than bending.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...1&d=1520270536


Your nut plates would have saved me a lot of time, and bad words. . . . Next time.

---

Pete, I'm going to change it to Wayne's way, just haven't made it there yet. I have noticed my pattern of working on such an involved project, I work my way around the car roughing in everything, then later revisit and put the finishing touches on various things until I've got things to a level that I want. Everything is connected, so often I cannot finish a part until the adjoining piece is modified/finished. It's a process!

Lance - Just want to say thanks very much for posting this detail on your windows. I went out in Oct and picked up the hardtop add on. Long way from putting the body together as yet, but this info on the windows is a real treasure. Hey - Pete - so is all your stuff.

Glad it helped somebody. When I'm finished with my build, I will post a detailed explanation of all my mods if anyone is interested. I may even become a vendor for some of my parts, depending on how everything works and member interest.

The door hinge nut plate idea is brilliant.....it is one of the next things I will do on the car now! I have dreaded putting doors on and off to the point it disuades me from working on related projects on the car.

Lance, I am planning to do the hardtop and the window info is greatly appreciated!

Lance, thanks so much for sharing. Our first build was an 818S and getting a good body fit without the top and windows was more than a challenge. For a CAD developed design we were surprised how asymmetric the whole thing is. When I first saw the C at SEMA 2016 I was a bit embarrassed for FFR as the there was a 20mm gap under the right side A pillar. Large enough to slide my hand into the car with the window closed. At the time I figured that it was an early prototype that the paint wasn't dry when they were loading it in the trailer. We've all been there. Anyway this started us on our journey of creating products to enhance FFR kits. If you are ever in Columbus and would like to come by, I'd love to buy you lunch and pick your brain about the window issue and possible solutions as we have interest from a potential client to build a C.

Chris

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lance corsi

The bronze wear shoes just keep the alignment tongue engaged with the groove while also helping to limit fish tailing of window as it traverses its guide. The addition of the second guide further steadies the window as it travels but its primary reason is to control the rear of the window where it engages the window trim attached to the hardtop. There are other ways but this one worked for me and looks sturdy enough to withstand moderate to normal usage. It also helps for those people who insist on closing the door via pushing on the window!

---

I made bronze shoes as well, using your idea. I had brass rod on hand so made do with that. My version here:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...554#post403554

Glad it helped, Art!

I gave up after about 40 hours of tryinfg to adjust the windows and just got them as close as I could. I never put them up and if I had thought about it when I was building would never have installed them to begin with. I am now looking for something to just keep them from rattling while down.

Uh oh.....this doesn't bode well for me. I have slowed down significantly as I work on trying to figure out how to get all the panels lined up. I haven't even gotten started on the doors yet much less the windows.....

I too am very hesitant on starting the windows. I feel like it is one of the last major tasks to complete and I just know how must frustration it is going to cause me. The body panels (specifically the doors) in my opinion have been the most challenging and least rewarding of this build.

Quick question: I should probably be asking FFR this question but I'm looking for a quick answer:

It looks like the window seal molding I've got is just a straight round rubber bulb on a push-on clamp. I've seen notes that I will have to grind down my flange thickness, but I notice the manual calls out a flocked weather strip (page 449), which is what I would have expected. The window will have to slide over it. That does not seem to be what I got from FFR. Did I just get the wrong weatherstripping or is the plan to go with a straight rubber bulb? (picture of supplied weatherstrip attached)

BTW I decided to tackle the door/window problem early, while things are still flexible. So far after a few hours of playing around with the passenger door, bending an adjusting brackets, etc, It looks like I may be able to close the door with the window all the way up. After all I've read (and now seen!) with these windows, I've adjusted my expectations to have only 2 useable positions: fully down with maybe 1/2 inch protrusion, hoping to have minimum rattling while driving, and then fully up with a good water-tight seal so I can drive it in the rain and stay dry, or at least park it and keep the water out on a rainy day.

Yes the window surround should be a flocked push-on strip.
If you do some junkyard searching, a couple of window guide tracks from an S-10 Chevy truck match perfectly with the 818 window curvature. With some fiddling, you can have fully functional windows. Use the S-10 tracks. You will need to cut them down to the lengths you need. Weld on some tabs to mount the tracks. Make sure to allow for adjustment. Align your doors first.

Hmmmm.... I think you've convinced me. With the window flopping around so much as it goes up and down it's hard to imagine how a channel in one location, with a curve, could guide it through it's stroke. I was playing around with my fingers as guides and I think you've convinced me it's possible. Steele rubber sells flocked channels that can be bent to shape, so I may go that route. I'll post details if I get it to work! (steelerubber.com P/N 70-1108-57)

I'm also looking at perhaps a "three finger" type of weatherstripping. Also from Steele (P/N 70-3680-99) The big finger would mount around the outer edge of the door and would serve as a "bed" for the top of the glass. I happen to have some samples from a previous project and it seems to fit very nicely. I'm thinking that would be helpful for sealing as well as keeping the window captured so it doesn't pop outward if air pressure builds up inside at highway speeds (I've had that happen: very noisy and annoying). The two smaller fingers actually seal against the glass. Or I might go with their P/N 70-3595-99 which has a nice big channel to fit over the hardtop's flange.

BTW I notice in your pictures, you're only showing a front channel. Did you not need one on the rear side? Did your track improvements make it unnecessary?

After Bob-n-Cincy posted those photos, I revisited both doors to add another track at the rear near the lock mechanism. This one is short but helps a lot. Thought I might get by with rollers at the back but it was still sloppy. Tracks on both ends of the window is the answer.
A full frame around the window would be best but I’m going to try this first. Of course the windows will still be sucked out at speed. The only cure for that is a full surround framework.
As far as the weatherstripping capturing the window, this would cause a problem while opening/closing the door with the window in the up position.

Oh yeah, I hadn't thought about trying to open the door with the window full up. That won't work. Well, I've got a 6' track section coming so I should be able to add tracks front and rear. Hope that's enough.

You could always do the cool Porsche trick and have the window move down 1/2" when you first move the door handle. ;-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rob T

You could always do the cool Porsche trick and have the window move down 1/2" when you first move the door handle. ;-)

---

I have this options on my Coach-One harness I'm using, I'm not sure how quick it responds yet.

Interesting, I was thinking about that.... So it's been done, eh? I was thinking I could put a sensor switch so that the window stops about 1/4 inch from full up under most conditions. The only time it would go full up was when the car was "in gear" (D). As soon as you put it in "park" the windows would drop down 1/4 inch again.

The only problem with that is when parking. If the windows stayed water tight in that position, great. If not maybe tie in the power door locks. So locking the car also puts them up all the way. Well, I have both types of molding coming in. I'll have to see how it works.

67 Car guy - any luck with your windows solution?

Hi All

Mr Corsi recommended 2002 Chevy S-10 rails fore and aft for my coupe window glass as the curvature is the same as the 818 windows. So, I went to a Pick Your Part this weekend and obtained a set for <$20. To remove the door card, first take off the window winder handle (there's a U-clip holding it on), remove the two armrest anchor bolts (7 mm socket), pop the trim anchors (there's 10-12 of them), and then unbolt the two 10 mm bolts holding each of the rails and you can pull them out the top with a pair of long nose pliers after removing the trim from the frame - no need to remove the window glass. I believe these parts are used on many late 1990 and early 2000's GMC vehicles - the part numbers are: 15766923, 15766924, 15075239, 15075240 if you want to buy them new or off eBay or whatever rather than going to a junkyard. You'll end up with these:

Attachment 143548

You'll need to cut down the S-10 rails to size and make new mounts at the new locations for the 818 door frame.

I asked Mr Corsi if he would share some photos of his installed S-10 window rails which he kindly did. He also kindly gave permission for them to be shared here to help other builders.

Back rail - the L-shaped adjustable brackets are from the kit:

Attachment 143544

The tubular cross at mid door is to mount his armrest/door pull on the inside of the door card. Here's the bronze shoes on the glass lifter:

Attachment 143545

I used Mr Quillen's bronze slider design on my glass lifter this weekend and, despite being quite small, I can attest they make a huge difference to the slop in the OEM part. Here's the front rail:

Attachment 143546

The loop in the door release linkage is for an emergency latch release in the event of a dead battery a la AZPete. He will attach a cable there and terminate it with a pull loop inside his front wheel liner (shhhh - don't tell!).

Last, here's the exit from the door skin:

Attachment 143547

For this, Mr Corsi mentioned "I made a template of the curvature of the window where the glass is all the way up, matching where the door skin allows the window to pass thru. It’s kinda tricky."

Hopefully, this pioneering work will make our coupe window journey free of spleen venting and fewer curse words! Thanks to Mr Corsi for his research, innovation, perseverance, and willingness to share.

Cheers

Dave