Best (Best is the enemy of the good... but) Engine Question

Hello,

I am convinced I am going to purchase my 818S kit... my wife won't let me until I clean the garage, so it should be any day, week, month... now :rolleyes:

There is only one BURNING unanswered question I have and it is in regard to the Engine I choose. I am open to buying a donor car BUT a totally seperate engine from a vendor or other source if it is worth it, or getting the donor that gives me the best choice of engine.

This is probably important to everybody, but speed (off the line moreso than topend), torque AND reliability are key. I have a kneejerk aversion to any donor car with really high mileage although I understand there are things you can do to ameliorate some of the consequences of that kind of wear and tear with aftermarket parts etc.

I am leaning towards the largest displacement turbo that was made in the WRX's, because I still cannot grok HOW much of a hassle an STI engine will be. They do look compelling, but I am not about doing all sorts of machinations to get something to work. I am buying a kit with the understanding that certain donors will just "fit" in the 818S without too much screwing around. I'm a fast learner, but not highly skilled. To give an analogy with one of my other obsessions - guitars, I demand performance, class, artistry and I have NO problem paying for value. However, I will do the minor maintenance but when it comes to headache stuff (like wiring in my Ibanez Artist AS200), it's "off to the luthier we go."

I am not about bending, prying, or otherwise screwing around with stuff to make a non "fitting" engine FIT.

Turbos appeal to me.

Some of these 2.5l engines look darn sexy.

I realize there will not be a consensus. Consensus among educated enthusiasts on almost ANYTHING is a pipe dream.

However, if you were

1) willing to pay extra (but not exorbitantly... I'd like my total 818S cost to be 25k or under assuming say a 6k donor car) for an engine external to my donor. Obviously, ceteris paribus I'd prefer the optimal donor, but even if there is one doesn't mean I am going to find one available in that exact year/model.
2) wanting to have upper quintile (compared to the average 818S) 0-60 performance from your engine but not AS concerned with top speed or even acceleration above say 50-70 time. Iow, I'd accept a tradeoff of more of the former, with less of the latter. I don't intend to break speed limits (much) or race it.
3) desirous that stuff fit into the kit as the standard choices are supposed to
4) biased towards turbos

I realize some of that stuff may be internally inconsistent. I am ok with that. It's part of my charm.

What engine would YOU go with?

If your first priority is a fast/reliable car, get the engine built by someone who has a lot of experience; don't forget the transmission. If you're buying a kit car because you want to tinker with the engine, do it yourself. Which boat are you in?

just drop in I would say the 2.0L turbo will be more reliable than the 2.5. But if you do end up getting an engine built might as well get a 2.5L turbo out of an 06-07 wrx. I believe 90% of anything you want will be in engine/turbo setup and quality tuning anyway so really I would just look for the best deals.

Get an 06-07 wrx donor with as low miles as you can find. They are out there. Might have to hunt 6 months. You can EASILY spend 25k on the build using the donor car motor as-is. There are plenty of things you will discover you want/need that don't come with the kit. All things considered, the 06 07 donors get you the best of everything IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Hindsight

Get an 06-07 wrx donor with as low miles as you can find. They are out there. Might have to hunt 6 months. You can EASILY spend 25k on the build using the donor car motor as-is. There are plenty of things you will discover you want/need that don't come with the kit. All things considered, the 06 07 donors get you the best of everything IMHO.

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Thank you all. This does confirm where I am leaning.

STI - no thanx.

External build, POSSIBLE... BUT I just really want a CHERRY 06-07 WRX (low miles)

IF the turbo is unreliable, well ads like this make me feel warm and fuzzy

http://www.speedyracer.com/TurboChar...FVJcfgodeV4AIQ

for $280 on sale from 625!!!!!!

i see that stock I get 2.5L 230hp, intercooled turbo

very excited!!!!!!

Thank you to everybody. What you say makes sense and is consistent with the CW and what I have researched.

I am definitely leaning towards the 2.5L 230hp, intercooled turbo in the 2006 WRX

googling and finding stuff like this - http://www.speedyracer.com/TurboChar...FVJcfgodeV4AIQ

for $280 right off the bat reaffirms that there is a metric buttload of stuff out there to replace anything in my donor car that is not up to snuff.

I will definitely be keeping my eye out for stuff that will boost my performance , whether it's engine power, or stuff that will increase my ability to handle lateral forces.

I want a FAST, sticky, low , reliable beast.

Thanks again for the help

If you're looking for just motors, the FXT/Forester XT has the same motor as the 06/07 WRX. With stock turbo they can make excellent torque down low, though they drop off up top. My stock turbo, stock block (but lots of supporting mods) 06 made 243whp and 351wtq. It was an autocross car so the high end drop off didn't concern me much.

Here are my WHP dyno charts using a 2004 forester xt 2.5L AVCS TD04 Turbo with stock boost of 12 psi. totally stock engine in 818 2wd.
Catted uppipe and down pipe, no muffler.

Attachment 36140 Attachment 36141

http://youtu.be/jHPyrY8GeZQ

I went with a 2.0. I let the budget dictate. It was important to me that I be able to drive the piss out of my donor before taking it apart. If there was a problem, I wanted to know that I didn't start with one. With that being said, I couldn't spend $6K on a donor unless I had a budget of close to $30K for the car. I'm looking at $25K budget and trying not to go over (it would be easy). The final will all depend on paint. I want it nice so I figure $5K for paint. It would be easy to spend more...or less. Hopefully I can get what I want at that number. Essentially, I want a new car. New car paint, new interior, new wheels and tires. By all appearances, all new.

If I could, I would go STI, 6-speed, because it's the best. And I'd throw the budget out the window.

Listening to you and reading between the lines, I would suggest you not buy a kit car. It is not a tinker toy set you put together. It is not clean, simple construction, no matter how you cut it. A low mileage WRX is still going to be dirty work to tear down and prepare. It requires a lot of tools. It require an ability to problem solve and improvise because the kits and parts are not perfect.

^^^^^^What Scargo said.^^^^^^

If you think you still want to go down this road I suggest sticking with the above mentioned later model WRX. Buy the donor first before you pay for an 818S kit. Go thru the donor tear down process. That will be a learning experience as to your abilities and desires. You may find out from the tear down that this whole thing is not for you, in which case you can sell the donor parts pretty easily here or on any of the Subaru forums like NASIOC/IWSTI/Legacy GT.

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Originally Posted by Scargo

Listening to you and reading between the lines, I would suggest you not buy a kit car. It is not a tinker toy set you put together. It is not clean, simple construction, no matter how you cut it. A low mileage WRX is still going to be dirty work to tear down and prepare. It requires a lot of tools. It require an ability to problem solve and improvise because the kits and parts are not perfect.

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Your suggestion, imnsho is 100% wrong, and just to be clear I am referencing the idea, not the person and not denigrating you. You don't know me from Adam, but I assure you there is NOTHING between the lines. A huge part of my life has been public speaking and giving recorded testimony so I choose my words carefully and I don't imply; I state

I stated explicitly without any hesitation my conviction that I'm going to purchase an 818 S Kit and I could not be less equivocal in that statement.

Forgive me if you self-defensive but with somebody tells me that they are essentially suggesting that when I speak something unequivocally that in fact that's not the way it actually should be I am going to respond appropriately

And again you don't know me but when I say something like that it's eight 100% certainty save unforeseen lightning strikes or other acts of nature completely outside of my locus of control

I am building an 818s

ZERO DOUBT.

There are things I am willing to put up with, and things I am not.

It is clear that certain engines fit this kit w/o tinkering

That is what I want.

I am confident at this point that I would rather see completed price fluff up another 3to 5k than to go with a 2 liter, especially an NA

THE 818, as it is, is the slowest I am willing to go. The supercar and/or 65 are LIKELY future projects. Note the distinction; one is certain, the other not

In any of my enthusiasms I always go for peak - I have an Eleiko Elite competition weightlifting bar and bumpers for example, and a PRS guitar. If you are into weightlifting or music, you will grok where I am coming from

I'm not bring snobby. I love simple, cheap stuff too. When that is the point, but if I am getting a two seater 'race car' I don't want it to be anywhere but near the top amongst its peers - OTHER 818s'

Iow, I'm not expecting supercar 0 - 60 in 3 seconds, but AMONG 818s' I want it to be no compromise

Once I'm pot committed, I am pot committed.

I have zero doubt I will do a n 818. It suits my enthusiasm and also my analytical side

The hesitancy is, what engine

That's why I asked this question. there is nothing else at least from my vantage point of not having started yet but having reviewed all the paperwork in manuals et cetera that is really a question as far as building an 818

Sure tons of stuff will come up during the build but the two things I am firing a preemptive strike against are

1) being disappointed with the performance
2) having an engine that is not a fit for the kit

From what I've seen reading threads about engines on this form as long as the engine is one that the kitbis designed for there are going to be unforeseen challenges, but not ones that are outside my tolerance margin

"I don't want it to be anywhere but near the top amongst its peers." Ok.

The WRX and STI engines fit the same. Neither engine will be a fitment issue. The STI 6 speed tranny is what requires fitting, along with the STI axles and other drivetrain/suspension bits. The H6-EZ30R-3.6 require a little bit of fitting, and a lot of tinkering.

If you want peak in your car like you do in your other endeavors you might skip the donor process all together and use rebuilt and new parts. Decide on how much HP you want then buy a built EJ257 from a reputable builder with a new turbo, injectors, and other bits. Cobb Accessport tune on the stock ECU. Buy a rebuilt 5 speed tranny. Get new hubs/brakes/and all the other stuff. A lot of us building the R version are taking the no donor route. Sticking with new WRX hubs/axles/and a rebuilt 5 speed is the best compromise for performance that is still close to plug and play with the FF 818 Kit.

And factor in at least a Killer B or STI oil pan, or go dry sump.

My research did not conclude that the 2.5 was a better engine. Yours may differ. Since the car weighs in at almost half of a WRX, it causes traction problems, or so I'm told. The addition of more low end torque by the 2.5 will tend to accentuate this. Traction is half the battle. On the track, the 2.5 can possibly use a higher gear coming out of a corner. Straight 0-60 I could possibly get the jump. All depends on what your end game is.

I did buy the Aluminum LCAs on eBay for $200.

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Originally Posted by whittles

Iow, I'm not expecting supercar 0 - 60 in 3 seconds, but AMONG 818s' I want it to be no compromise

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It doesn't take too much to get an 818 to the power-to-weight ratio to run 3 second 0-60s. However, it will be hard to get enough street-legal rubber under the fenders to actually run that number. The engine isn't where you should worry; focus on the transmission and wheels.

Also you will need to decide if you want to go with a different intercooler solution, because so far the "stock" FF design to reuse the oem TMIC is not working out for the high performance folks here. That means you will have to do some fitting and tinkering, either with the TMIC relocated, FMIC, or AWIC. Most likely you will be looking at body panel cuts, vents, scoops, or something.

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Originally Posted by Jaime

It doesn't take too much to get an 818 to the power-to-weight ratio to run 3 second 0-60s. However, it will be hard to get enough street-legal rubber under the fenders to actually run that number. The engine isn't where you should worry; focus on the transmission and wheels.

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this x100, but i think this is going to be a lot more work than you anticipate. I thought it was going to be fairly plug and play and I was very wrong. There are so many things in the build manual that had me thinking, "well that is just retarded why would they do it that way!?" Be prepared for that. I was able to deal with it only because of my large amount of experience with subarus to begin with. Also i would caution a few things, subarus are very picky especially when it comes to engine management and tuning. You really get what you pay for on some things, others not so much. As far as this engine thing, i think you should do a little more research still. I agree with a lot of what is said in here, truthfully, i don't believe the USDM 2.0 and 2.5L motors are at all the best match for this car. There are so many other subaru combinations that i feel would be better, such as a jdm ej207, destroked 2.5L, ej22t, etc etc. From the sounds of it though, you really dont seem to want to go that route. On top of that, certain wrx ECUs have more tuning capabilities than others, also something to look into. On top of that, i would also look into transmission setups, there are so many subaru combinations and almost every 5 speed subaru bolts to the 02-07 motors. Plus i would look into getting a limited slip installed as well. I just think there are more variables to consider than what factory five implies.

Thank you. That is good info. I very well may go donor for a lot of ancillary stuff, but get the EJ257 from a builder with a NEW turbo (or buy a new turbo myself seperately)

Those killer B pans look sweet, too!

Thanks

I have been running over the cost/benefit of the limited slip for a while. let up on the power in a turn without limited slip can be a unique experience!

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Originally Posted by Sgt.Gator

Also you will need to decide if you want to go with a different intercooler solution, because so far the "stock" FF design to reuse the oem TMIC is not working out for the high performance folks here. That means you will have to do some fitting and tinkering, either with the TMIC relocated, FMIC, or AWIC. Most likely you will be looking at body panel cuts, vents, scoops, or something.

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YES!!! I was just immersing myself in this issue last night and I heartily agree

COOL = GOOD, FAST, and reliable.

I am well aware that you take a good system and overheat it and it is no longer as good on a # of fronts.
Definitely reading the build threads and keeping up with this issue!

I'm gonna come back to this next year.......

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Originally Posted by thall818

I went with a 2.0. I let the budget dictate. It was important to me that I be able to drive the piss out of my donor before taking it apart. If there was a problem, I wanted to know that I didn't start with one. With that being said, I couldn't spend $6K on a donor unless I had a budget of close to $30K for the car. I'm looking at $25K budget and trying not to go over (it would be easy). The final will all depend on paint. I want it nice so I figure $5K for paint. It would be easy to spend more...or less. Hopefully I can get what I want at that number. Essentially, I want a new car. New car paint, new interior, new wheels and tires. By all appearances, all new.

If I could, I would go STI, 6-speed, because it's the best. And I'd throw the budget out the window.

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I know you said you didn't want to spend $6k on your donor in particular but I have seen others spending that much on a WRX donor so just as a heads up to all those that don't think they can get an STI donor for a decent price, it can be done. I got my '06 STI donor with fees and all out the door for $6400. Had a little over 80k on the odometer and was rearended high as well as pushed into the car in front so the trunk was destroyed as was the front bumper, headlights and radiator, but the suspension, engine and tranny are all good to go.

Just wanted to let you guys know that it can be done if you search hard enough and find the right car that doesn't work for rebuilders (enough frame/body damage to keep them away).

My $0.02

Nice find. The STI's I saw which were trashed.... trashed interior, all body panels trashed, high miles, wouldn't start, etc, were going for over $10k. I shook my head a lot at that while searching for a donor.

You need to check out the thread "Simplifying the EJ".
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...lifying-the-EJ

Lots of info about simplifying and getting a little more from your Subaru. I'm not a subaru guy, so it helped alot.
Also, if you want to be in the top tier, there is no doubt you will need to add an AWIC. Lots of discussion here on that. Check out VCP website. Wayne has done lots of dyno work with it.
I think you are budgeting low if you are at $25 and want to be in the top. Add another 5 - 10 depending on what goodies you add...... once you have read more on the forum.

I look at some of these older, well-used motors and shake my head. Now, I don't have but five years living with, working on and racing late model STis, but I have built the motors and I have spent a fair share of my time reading and contributing on NASIOC and IWSTI.
From what I understand, you can expect a decent life from an open-deck EJ 205 motor. Now, I know some are working with very limited budgets, but if you start seriously boosting it, like to 300 WHP, and driving the piss out of a tired, dead-stock motor your fun will be over soon. For anything beyond modest street driving I would change out (meaning upgrade) the water pump, oil pump and pistons. Basically, you need to rebuild the engine. If you wait to do this the whole motor may end up being trash.