818R test day video

[Wayne Presley]

Lets try this again


http://youtu.be/xh9qQHGrFPs

[longislandwrx]

Is this the video that crashed the Database? LOL nice work getting everything back up.

Thanks for posting this awesomeness. Was that full throttle down the straight?

[ehansen007]

Is that right? 1.5G before you break loose in the first corner?

[WIS89]

Wayne-

Great video. I know that you all did a lot of hard work to dial in that suspension, but it looks like some of you all might have had just a little more fun than others! ;-o)

Thanks for sharing! Looks like Factory Five has a significant hit on their hands!! Very sexy, very fast, and great handling!! Just WOW!!

Regards,

Steve

[Gus]

Awesome vid, thanks for sharing

[Wayne Presley]

Is this the video that crashed the Database? LOL nice work getting everything back up.

Thanks for posting this awesomeness. Was that full throttle down the straight?

Yes that was full throttle, I let off a little early into turn 1 than needed because going off track there at 90+ mph wouldn't be fun.


Is that right? 1.5G before you break loose in the first corner?
The G loads (and all data ovelay) are written to the video file in real time with the AIM SmartyCam so that would be yes. I wish it displayed 2 decimal places on the on screen read out but the datalog shows it to 3 places.


Wayne-

Great video. I know that you all did a lot of hard work to dial in that suspension, but it looks like some of you all might have had just a little more fun than others! ;-o)

Thanks for sharing! Looks like Factory Five has a significant hit on their hands!! Very sexy, very fast, and great handling!! Just WOW!!

Regards,

Steve

Those laps that the video was trimmed from were done just for the videos. I was having a blast, not having to pay attention to what the car was doing since it was soooo easy to drive. I was seeing how early I could get on the gas, hanging the tail out 6" for 2/3rds of the 300° degree corner and tossing it into the last corner in a 4 wheel drift and let the uphill catch the car followed by a powerslide onto the front straight........Yeah I had FUN!

[David Hodgkins]

I want your job!!

:)

[bnr32jason]

This car looks like it's going to be fun!

Have you noticed any of the snap oversteer that is typical when hitting the limit on a mid or rear engine car?

I'm fortunate enough to have drive a couple high end MR cars at the track (Ferrari 430 and Gallardo) but with all of the electronic nannies keeping me pointed straight, I did wonder how it would compare to the 818 with zero driver aids.

[AZPete]

Thanks, Wayne.

[Dave Smith]

Ive spoken to the guys this morning after testing last week. I've got a ton to catch up on from the weekend in HB, but I am super proud of the effort and happy that we are green for production on the car. Personal thanks to Wayne for his tremendous help with track (and street!) testing/development on the 818. Ive said it many times, and this weekend in California showed it also... The FFR community is one of the biggest reasons why this company has been so successful. I wouldve loved to have the 818R out in Cali, but that time is closer thanks to guys like Wayne.

[Wayne Presley]

This car looks like it's going to be fun!

Have you noticed any of the snap oversteer that is typical when hitting the limit on a mid or rear engine car?

I'm fortunate enough to have drive a couple high end MR cars at the track (Ferrari 430 and Gallardo) but with all of the electronic nannies keeping me pointed straight, I did wonder how it would compare to the 818 with zero driver aids.


Nope, easily catchable on the oversteer. By the second day we had both cars set up well enough that more than half the time I didn't have to reduce throttle to catch it, just counter steered it and let the tail hang out until the straight. I sat down last night to watch some of the 32 GB of video I have, looked up and it was 11:30 and only had watched 25% of them. I'll try trim one out tonight and do a side by side video of driver shot along with the forward camera. The below video shows the car tail out and comes right back in line with a little countersteer and slight reduction of the throttle. You can hear these tires, they talk really well to you when they start to slide.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqIbU0aOUZE

[BipDBo]

I have to wait for this but,
I WANT IT.
I WANT IT.
I WANT IT.
I WANT IT.
I WANT IT.

I have to pool together my resources, including to build a garage, but this is definitely what I'm doing for my mid-life crisis.
This is unreal performance for any street legal car, but especially for econocar price range. There's lot of talk about big hp builds, but this thing is a monster with unmodified WRX power, and would probably still be with NA.

By the way, the front bumper section looks great with the black coating. I like the protection it provides as well. Is it dipped and therefore on the inside as well, or is it painted on? How much weight does it add? Could this be an option to come dipped out of the box?

So, can I look forward to watching an 818 go up Pike's peak?

[Nuul]

How much weight does it add?

1.5 pounds for a multiple coat job over the entire car, it's negligible.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVeMU-o8Lsk

[Desertrunner]

Guys are the trailing arms on the back suspenion parallel to the ground or slightly sloping down as they go back. Subaru use the angle of these arms to adjust the under and over steer in there cars. On the standard Subaru they help to correct the under steer as the body rolls on a corner. In this case they need to be flat or parallel to the ground other wise they will make the car more prone to over steer.

Tony

[Darkpiggy's dad]

Wayne, thanks for the great video. Was this video shot before or after the team from Koni dialed in the suspension? Were there any equally strong left turns, and if so, was the car capable of generating comparable numbers in left and right turns? The car handles like it's on rails and is so fast, 38 to 88, shift to shift, in about 7.5 second. To me, that defines "Hair On Fire". Please, again, was the car running a stock 2006 WRX engine with stock factory tune? I can't wait for October 5. I'm hand digging the foundation excavation for my new garage this week.
Also thanks Dave, Jim, Jesper and everyone else on the team who have brought this remarkable car to production.

[shinn497]

Wayne was brake fade a problem on the stock brakes?

[Wayne Presley]

No brake fade at all but the track isn't tough on brakes running the direction we were going. I run Elise's on the track have stock two piston calipers on the front and singles in the rear with out any fade problem even at Road Atlanta where I go from 128 mph to 50 mph going into turn 10a. The WRX brakes are larger and the 818 is 100 lbs lighter so I highly doubt it will have any issues

[D2W]

I noticed in the video you hit 1.5 G's several times going right, but I only saw 1.1 G's going left. Any reason?

[Wayne Presley]

The camera was not perfectly level when the car was in the pits, you can see the offset in the display with the car going down the front straight. It cornered equally hard in both directions. Figure 1.3 each way continuous load.

[FFR-ADV]

Hi Wayne,

Seeing your YouTube track footage in the Elise and the your 818 footage makes me wonder if a similar single wiper in the middle might be an elegant solution for the 818SR. Having driven both what do you think?

Cheers!

BTW love your 818R video!

[Movieman]

Wayne: Thanks for the video. Question: If you had to compare the acceleration and handling to anything current what would it be?
I know, you may need two vechicles to answer that but just interested in your gut feeling.
Thanks!

[metalmaker12]

Wow I am getting impatient, Dave where's my kit, my parts are lonely lol. Great job everyone !!!!!!!

[Wayne Presley]

Hi Wayne,

Seeing your YouTube track footage in the Elise and the your 818 footage makes me wonder if a similar single wiper in the middle might be an elegant solution for the 818SR. Having driven both what do you think?

Cheers!

BTW love your 818R video!

Single wiper would work great given the shape of the windshield.


Wayne: Thanks for the video. Question: If you had to compare the acceleration and handling to anything current what would it be?
I know, you may need two vechicles to answer that but just interested in your gut feeling.
Thanks!

The 818R made 273 and was similar to a turbo elise with a small turbo making 280 RWHP. I put a bigger turbo on it and made 348 RWHP and it's really fast now. THe 818's have way more torque than the turbo Elise. An 818 with 350 RWHP will be verrrry fast. This video is uphill and starts in 2nd gear


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J64RS6mYa1s

[Wayne Presley]

Here's another 818R video


http://youtu.be/IKLkXdxHImY

[FFR-ADV]

Thanks for the videos!

How do you think the 818S would behave on the street with the suspension setup like the 818R including ride height?

Cheers!

[Ironhydroxide]

Is this the video that crashed the Database?
I do believe it isn't..... if it were I'd have to hate him.

[Wayne Presley]

Thanks for the videos!

How do you think the 818S would behave on the street with the suspension setup like the 818R including ride height?

Cheers!
The R had 3" front and 3.5" rear ride height and 3" of splitter sticking out front which would not be speed bump or parking lot transition friendly.


I do believe it isn't..... if it were I'd have to hate him.

LOL, not my video as it's hosted on YouTube...

[EmergencyDeep]

Wow, what a screamer! Thanks Wayne!

BTW, has anyone figured out a lap time from these?

[Movieman]

Wow, what a screamer! Thanks Wayne!

BTW, has anyone figured out a lap time from these?

They tried but they couldn't start and stop the stopwatch fast enough! :D

[FFR-ADV]

The R had 3" front and 3.5" rear ride height and 3" of splitter sticking out front which would not be speed bump or parking lot transition friendly.


Thanks! This is great info. So I understand that the upper suspension mount points are 1 inch higher.

What is the clearance on the Lotus you are running on the street?

Was the new 11 degree diffuser and longer splitter on the 818R in this round of testing?

Cheers!

[Wayne Presley]

Thanks! This is great info. So I understand that the upper suspension mount points are 1 inch higher.

What is the clearance on the Lotus you are running on the street?

Was the new 11 degree diffuser and longer splitter on the 818R in this round of testing?
Cheers!

Lotus has 4.5" on the street car, the race cars have 4" minimum height rule. The new splitter/diffuser was not on the car to my knowledge.

[FFR-ADV]

Hi Wayne,

Thank you so much for patiently answering our many questions and passing along your performance insights. I personally want to set up a 818S with as much R in it as I can get away with. A plated race car. The countdown excitement is building.

Thanks again!

[Wayne Presley]

Wow, what a screamer! Thanks Wayne!

BTW, has anyone figured out a lap time from these?

The best time on the 818R was a 1:29.44 running NCCAR clockwise.

[skullandbones]

Hey Wayne,

Does the 818 handle anything like the coupe since the wheelbases are the same (I think)? Also, how does it compare with the way the roadster handles on the track? I suppose you could classify all of the above as short wheel base but I've heard the roadster is more suseptable to swapping ends due to the real short wheel base. And then there's the weight which could create an entirely new dimension to the equation. I've never driven a car that light and with that much power. Thanks, WEK.

[Wayne Presley]

The roadsters and FFR Challenge cars handle very well, I steer them as much with my right foot as I do the steering wheel. The coupes are about the same but more stable and a little slower to rotate due to the extra wheelbase. Both cars can be driven with a heavy hand and can be tossed into the corners in a 4 wheel drift. The 818 is so much lighter and turns in so well that it really rewards smooth steering inputs. The 818 doesn't have raw torque of the V8's but you still have to mindful of spinning the tires off the corners.

[EmergencyDeep]

HOly#&$^#! I searched for lap times for comparison, and Automobile Magazine tested a Shelby GT500 there and turned a 1:45 and change. That is such a huge difference that I have to wonder if there is a "short" and a "long" version of the track. Wow.

[Wayne Presley]

There is no long or short at the track, only CW and CCW. We ran clockwise most of the time.

[Xusia]

HOly#&$^#! I searched for lap times for comparison, and Automobile Magazine tested a Shelby GT500 there and turned a 1:45 and change. That is such a huge difference that I have to wonder if there is a "short" and a "long" version of the track. Wow.

That could also be because Mustangs - as much as I love the look & idea of them - are not great handling cars!!!

[wleehendrick]

That could also be because Mustangs - as much as I love the look & idea of them - are not great handling cars!!!

I'm sure the Boss 302 would have been quicker; it's a good handling car, Mustang or not. Here's the article I assume EmergencyDeep was quoting:

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1206_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2013_ford_shelby _gt500/viewall.html

Although very different vehicles, being that much faster than America's most powerful pony cars tells you what a monster FFR has built!

[Evan78]

The best time on the 818R was a 1:29.44 running NCCAR clockwise.Wayne - can you share how far behind the 818S typically ran?

[wleehendrick]

Just for some fun bench racing:

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/gingerman_raceway.html

[thestigwins]

I am thinking that they ran the track in a different configuration. The times seem too fast~

[wleehendrick]

I am thinking that they ran the track in a different configuration. The times seem too fast~

It seems reasonable to me for the lightweight 818R (with a track tuned suspension on Hoosiers) to be a bit quicker than a Z06 or Ford GT with comparable power/weight ratios.

[thestigwins]

Did we ever get an actual weight or hp for the 818r? If it is correct that's awesome.

[wleehendrick]

Did we ever get an actual weight or hp for the 818r? If it is correct that's awesome.

I haven't seen any weight figures in a while, but IIRC, around SEMA time, I think it was mentioned that the R was under the target of 1800lbs.

265hp (at the wheels?) has also been mentioned as the figure for the EJ255 donor motor with stock internals, open exhaust, and a tune.

[skullandbones]

Thanks, Wayne. Btw, has the diameter of the steering wheel and rack ratio been optimized for the testing (for the R) or changed at all from stock? It looked like you were pretty comfortable with that setup.

[Wayne Presley]

Just for some fun bench racing:

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/gingerman_raceway.html

Uh, the R&T test was at Gingerman, the time stated was at NCCAR clockwise.


I haven't seen any weight figures in a while, but IIRC, around SEMA time, I think it was mentioned that the R was under the target of 1800lbs.

265hp (at the wheels?) has also been mentioned as the figure for the EJ255 donor motor with stock internals, open exhaust, and a tune.
Jim showed me the dyno sheet and it was 273 RWHP with 300 torque.


Thanks, Wayne. Btw, has the diameter of the steering wheel and rack ratio been optimized for the testing (for the R) or changed at all from stock? It looked like you were pretty comfortable with that setup.

Nope, stock rack. The steering wheel was a leather wrapped wheel, it didn't seem small like a 12" or big like the wood rimmed FFR roadster wheel so I'd say it was 13.5-14. Plenty of leverage, feel and quick enough.

[JeromeS13]

Not sure if NASA's records are for CCW OR CW. Still sounds quick!

http://www.nasa-tt.com//Southeast_Track_Records

[Wayne Presley]

Not sure if NASA's records are for CCW OR CW. Still sounds quick!

http://www.nasa-tt.com//Southeast_Track_Records

I know NASA ran CCW.

[Wayne Presley]

I just texted the NCCAR track manager and he said the 818R was the second fastest car that has been timed running clockwise. A Radical ran a 1:10.xx, third fastest was a Noble at 1:32.xx

[flytosail]

I just texted the NCCAR track manager and he said the 818R was the second fastest car that has been timed running clockwise. A Radical ran a 1:10.xx, third fastest was a Noble at 1:32.xx


And this is the car some called "ugly"? Awesome numbers!

[shinn497]

He didn't say which nnoble?

Faster than a c5 z06 is good enough for me!

[FFR-ADV]

I just texted the NCCAR track manager and he said the 818R was the second fastest car that has been timed running clockwise. A Radical ran a 1:10.xx, third fastest was a Noble at 1:32.xx Earlier Post "The best time on the 818R was a 1:29.44 running NCCAR clockwise."

Wow! Do you know what wing angle the 818R was running? With the planned full 11 degree rear diffuser Jim was talking about, and bigger splitter up front to balance out the rear aero downforce, it could get more rear wing, full race slicks like the Radical, plus 350 WHP build, there could be even more to come...WOW!!!!

BTW: Do you know which Radical and which Noble?

Thank you for sharing!

[Wayne Presley]

I talked with the track manager this morning and he didn't know which Noble it was the the Radical was a SR9 twin turbo V6. He also said that running CCW was 3-5 seconds quicker than CW depending on the HP of the car.

[FFR-ADV]

WOW! Thank you for checking.

To even rise to comparison with a pure Le Mans track car!!!

17438

[Dave Smith]

I'm getting some work done this beautiful Saturday morning at FFR. I am going to take my blue 363-powered coupe home this afternoon and enjoy a Smith family Sunday tomorrow before hitting it hard Monday morning. I read this post from Wayne and was smiling cause its nice to see him sharing his seat-of-the-pants experiences with you guys.

The car is very very fast and those design goals were nailed by the team and I can't sleep at night KNOWING what lies ahead for all of us as we start to build and drive these bad-a little mini can-am cars! Still, I wanted to point something out that I've been asked about frequently. "Why are we spending so much time on the performance, handling, chassis rigidity, on the car when so many guys intend on using the car on the street?"

Well, the answer is that the perf testing is more visible and fun, but there's evern more work being done on the other aspects of the car for sure... BUT back in the early days the cheesy kit car competitors would alway say that our cars "may be fast on the track, but they weren't capable street cars" That was only sales crap. The truth is that the core foundation of chassis/suspension/safety and NVH is so central to a good street design. Think of it this way. You can ALWAYS take a capable sports car design and soften up the shocks/springs, add sound insulation and make it a great street car... but you cant always take a street car and make them capable track cars, even good autocrosssers, because they were designed without those considerations and capabilities. We're going forward on a professional (and probably a bit pricey) integrated soft top very soon after or close to concurrent with launch. A well-built FFR Mk4 or 33 is a darn good street car and the 818 will take that a bit further. Where we are right now is a SOLID platform for a good number of directions we can take the design. I've described it frequently as a "swatch-watch" concept and we are at the headwaters of that, and will allow interest and following to determine which paths we continue to pursue.

Bottom line is that the 818S benefits tremendously from the core competence of the chassis, suspension and overall design and it wouldnt be a Factory Five if it didnt have a full steel tubular chassis and proper construction.

The proof of this strategy has played itself out at races, track events, autocrosses, and club events so many times over the years and was on display last Sunday at a small no-name autocross in Riverside the day after the HB cruise-in. I proudly watched about 25-30 FFR's DRIVE from all over so cal and southwest, the cars hit the track and ran hard all day, putting grins on everyones faces. Many of the guys had never tracked their cars before and everyone had a blast spanking their cars all day in 90 degree heat! Only one car had a problem (it wasn't a FFR) and after a long day at the track I sat and watched each car load up and drive home, many with their wives sitting next to them! THAT is Factory Five!

Also I got tears in my eyes as there was another non-FFR car that ran hard all day and then loaded up and drove home... It was a young kid, passionate, with dirty hands and not much money... and he was driving an old 1988 fox body 5.0 Mustang. Heart and Soul baby! THAT is also Factory Five Racing!

The 818 chassis design will take it's rightful place in the FFR line-up. The 818 chassis will do its job to protect the souls who travel in it. The 818 chassis will do its job when asked to perform at the limits... and most days, as guys drive the car down the street or motor down the highway, all that work we've done will simply be there lying as energy in repose, waiting for you to ask it to do more, waiting to be called upon, waiting to wrap a smile all the way around your skull. It is over-engineered and so much more capable than most will ever ask for... just the way it ought to be if it's gonna wear a Factory Five badge, no matter what the price.

Again, the guys have done their jobs. We've done our best work. Is the car perfect? Nope. But it's 1000 times better than ANYTHING at this price and it's our best work to date. It might sound corny or overly gushy/emotional, but the real truth that I want you guys to know is that I'm not just trying to make money and sell cars. This car, like everything we've done, HAS to deliver on a much larger mission and contribute to the hard work of forging this company into legend. I know it sounds conceited, but my goal is nothing short of looking back years from now and seeing that we've BUILT one of the great and Iconic American Car companies of all time. Our reach MUST always exceed our grasp and in the effort I KNOW we'll find our reach to be so much more than we dreamed and with the 818, we're well on our way towards those goals.

Dave Smith
President

[RM1SepEx]

Have a great day Dave! I'm puttering on my old BMW 325IC getting ready to enjoy an awesome weekend! The 818 is looking AWESOME, I can't wait to bolt that baby together and get those donor parts onto something that rolls vs stacks!

[Silvertop]

A most inspirational post, Mr. Smith! Makes me want to jump in and preorder a car -- except that I did that months ago. And I eagerly look forward to taking delivery of my 818S next fall.

Your pride in what you have accomplished fairly leaps off the page. And that's as it should be.




........... Still, I wanted to point something out that I've been asked about frequently. "Why are we spending so much time on the performance, handling, chassis rigidity, on the car when so many guys intend on using the car on the street?"

Well, the answer is that the perf testing is more visible and fun, but there's evern more work being done on the other aspects of the car for sure... BUT back in the early days the cheesy kit car competitors would alway say that our cars "may be fast on the track, but they weren't capable street cars" That was only sales crap. The truth is that the core foundation of chassis/suspension/safety and NVH is so central to a good street design. Think of it this way. You can ALWAYS take a capable sports car design and soften up the shocks/springs, add sound insulation and make it a great street car... but you cant always take a street car and make them capable track cars, even good autocrosssers, because they were designed without those considerations and capabilities.

That's not a question I needed to ask. Although I'm building a pure streeter not destined for racing (well, maybe the occasional track day, or "no-name" autocross), the simple fact that the car was DESIGNED to be capable of that is to me downright essential, and it is the reason that the car is virtually guaranteed to be successful.

Reading the 818 testing results on this thread goes beyond exciting -- It's just plain thrilling, at least to me. I can't wait!

[skullandbones]

Dave,

Your formula for "over engineering" the chassis on these cars is greatly appreciated by me and many others. Although, not an engineer, I find the design concept to be essential for how they may be used. I will push mine to the limit less than many but still know that I am relatively safe in doing so. If I have another build in me, I may take on this newest offering. It is really tempting knowing what I have in my garage already. I hope you and the folks at FFR continue sailing along in fair winds. WEK.

[Movieman]

When I first found this forum I saw a post made by David Smith that in part said "Remember, a human soul rides in every car we build" and that in itself told me a lot about the man.
Fast is nice, good looking is nice but KNOWING that the people that built the orginal package care about your safety above profits means so much more.
Then I went to FFR and outside the building ran into Dave Smith. Now I could tell the guy had a lot on his mind and was busy but he took a couple minutes to say hello.
Then in a almost 3 hour tour with Jason I saw the comitment to quality that goes into these cars.
I don't think you can ask any more from any company than what I saw with my own eyes.

[FFR-ADV]

Thank you for this post Dave!

That Jim and his team are able to design, test, and fine-tune the 818 in both a NO APOLOGIES 818R track car (that could even wear street plates) and the 818S Street car concurrently is testament to your personal commitment to creating EXCEPTIONAL cars for those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to build them. I have put my own money down, ordering a 818S the first day the pre-order was made available, and look forward to getting it this fall (so close, but also causing loss of sleep in anticipation). Thank you for also for keeping this car affordable, so that more of us can afford to build an 818 and still add some performance goodies to carry it thru. My 818S will carry as much 818R as it can (Suspension, Aero, Depowered Brakes with balance beam on the pedal, depowered rack, headers, up-pipe, downpipe, some engine goodies, track seats, ultra high performance street tires set up stagered like the current 818R, splitter, wing, diffuser...) to become an 818SR running at 4" roadheight rather than 3" of the soon to be famous 818R sibling. I will proudly dirty my hands bringing my 818SR to the street. Dirt under the fingernails is a badge of honor.

Thank you for everything you and Factory Five have done in creating the 818.

I am excited for what you and your team will accomplish down the road!

[metalmaker12]

+1 I concur

[longislandwrx]

I'm watching the SRT team run gingerman on speedvision right now and the 818 looked faster.

[AZPete]

Building a quality performance car was beyond my grasp until I reached out to Factory Five in 2007 for a roadster kit.
Now Factory Five has extended my reach yet again as I await building an 818 this summer.
Thanks Dave and all others at FFR!
Pete

[FFR-ADV]

The best time on the 818R was a 1:29.44 running NCCAR clockwise.
The 818R was the second fastest car that has been timed running clockwise.
A Radical ran a 1:10.xx, third fastest was a Noble at 1:32.xx

This is likely the Noble M400s which were run at NCCAR:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FEH2xvrbZOg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_M400

Well Done Dave, Jim & Factory Five!!! The Amount our reach has been extended by Factory Five is staggering!!!

[FFR-ADV]

Here is a second video of some of the Nobles which 818R bested:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ElCVLxK0tfc

Well Done Factory Five!!!

Thank you for sharing all of the track info and video with us Wayne!

[bnr32jason]

I'm glad to hear the performance aspect of it is going so well.

If you guys are even putting half as much effort into the fit and finish of the 818 I think most of us will be very pleased. This is my first kit car, and honestly performance and reliability I haven't ever really been worried about because of Factory Five's reputation. My main concerns have been with the fit and finish of the completed car. I've browsed through GTM builds and often a fair amount of body work and minor modifications are needed to get everything to line up well. I've seen some pretty terrible kit cars with large panel gaps and interior parts that aren't lined up correctly and things like that. With FF building everything from scratch, even despite their good reputation, I'm still slightly concerned. But I will say my concern is gradually fading away as more pictures and videos are posted of the cars.