Track Day Question

[Silvertop]

It’s been most of four decades since I spent any time in a competitive car on a road course (and THAT was Ice Racing). When I became interested in the 818 Project, it never really crossed my mind that I might want an opportunity to get on a race track with my new toy.

However, all the references to Track Day Events on this forum has really gotten my curiosity up. There are at least three road courses within easy reach from where I live that offer Track Day events – Brainerd International Raceway, Road America, and Blackhawk Farms. I’m familiar with all three tracks and I can’t imagine anything more fun (well, almost….) than the opportunity for some hot laps on any of them. The requirements for participation seem to fairly minimal. -- Initial participation in an approved (and brief) Novice level driver’s school, and a mechanically sound car. Convertibles are required to have some sort of roll bar.

Based on my minimal research, it does not appear that roll bar requirements for Track Days rise to the same level as they would for sanctioned (SCCA, etc) road racing events. My question – to the veteran track day guys on the forum -- Is the roll bar provided with the 818S likely to meet Track Day event requirements?

[jimgood]

You have nothing to worry about. A full roll bar for convertables is all that is required by most track day organizers. You just need to be sure to supply equal seat and restraints for an instructor. The FFR Roadsters with dual roll hoops do track days all the time.


Have fun!!!

[tmoretta]

Yes, but track day groups often require that a broom stick placed from the roll bar to the front fender must be above the driver's helmet.

[cmcintyre]

This from a NE track day organization I have driven with. Porsche Club of America and BMW CCA are the same, I believe. Hope this helps.

"What is your convertible policy?

For safety reasons, all convertibles (Boxster, Miata, Corvette, BMW Z4, Honda S2000, Pontiac Solstice etc.) are required to have a roll bar that meets the following two criteria in order to be eligible to run during any event. 1) The roll bar must be in the fixed position and visible at all times. This means that roll bars which are designed to automatically deploy are not acceptable unless they are in the full upright and locked position at all times. 2) The roll bar must allow the driver to pass the "broomstick" test which means that the top of the drivers helmet must be below the line from the top of the roll bar to the top of the windshield. There are aftermarket roll bars and/or seats which can be used to help meet these requirements. If your convertible meets these standards, then you are welcome to participate! Factory hard tops are acceptable, as well.


--
Ian Prout
President
Sports Car Driving Association, LLC
www.scda1.com"

[Silvertop]

This from a NE track day organization I have driven with. Porsche Club of America and BMW CCA are the same, I believe. Hope this helps.

"What is your convertible policy?

For safety reasons, all convertibles (Boxster, Miata, Corvette, BMW Z4, Honda S2000, Pontiac Solstice etc.) are required to have a roll bar that meets the following two criteria in order to be eligible to run during any event. 1) The roll bar must be in the fixed position and visible at all times. This means that roll bars which are designed to automatically deploy are not acceptable unless they are in the full upright and locked position at all times. 2) The roll bar must allow the driver to pass the "broomstick" test which means that the top of the drivers helmet must be below the line from the top of the roll bar to the top of the windshield. There are aftermarket roll bars and/or seats which can be used to help meet these requirements. If your convertible meets these standards, then you are welcome to participate! Factory hard tops are acceptable, as well.


--
Ian Prout
President
Sports Car Driving Association, LLC
www.scda1.com"

It helps a lot. If that's a general benchmark standard, I don't think I'll have any problem with my 818. Although frankly, I'm not sure what broomsticking to the top of the windshield really accomplishes. Doesn't seem likely that the windshield would actually stay up in a rollover..........

[Someday I Suppose]

The broomstick test as I understand it is from the top of the roll bar to the body forward of the windshield, basically to the part of the body likely to be in contact with the ground when the windshiled collapses.

[Wayne Presley]

Most are from the top of the roll cage to the forward part of the chassis. On the FFR challenge car, there is a hoop just under the cowl and tubes going forward to the front X just under the body.

[Silvertop]

This from a NE track day organization I have driven with. Porsche Club of America and BMW CCA are the same, I believe. Hope this helps.

"What is your convertible policy?

For safety reasons, all convertibles (Boxster, Miata, Corvette, BMW Z4, Honda S2000, Pontiac Solstice etc.) are required to have a roll bar that meets the following two criteria in order to be eligible to run during any event. 1) The roll bar must be in the fixed position and visible at all times. This means that roll bars which are designed to automatically deploy are not acceptable unless they are in the full upright and locked position at all times. 2) The roll bar must allow the driver to pass the "broomstick" test which means that the top of the drivers helmet must be below the line from the top of the roll bar to the top of the windshield. There are aftermarket roll bars and/or seats which can be used to help meet these requirements. If your convertible meets these standards, then you are welcome to participate! Factory hard tops are acceptable, as well.


The broomstick test as I understand it is from the top of the roll bar to the body forward of the windshield, basically to the part of the body likely to be in contact with the ground when the windshiled collapses.


Most are from the top of the roll cage to the forward part of the chassis. On the FFR challenge car, there is a hoop just under the cowl and tubes going forward to the front X just under the body.

Either Wayne's or Someday's post makes more sense to me from a purely safety perspective. The curious thing is that cmcintyre's post, which provides the parameters for one of the Northeast's Track Day sanctioning groups (The Sports Car Driving Association LLC) was lifted directly from that group's website. Their standard apparently broomsticks to the top of the windshield.

I checked with Slowpokes', a Track Day sanctioning body that operates out of BIR in Minnesota. Their tech inspection form simply requires that the roll bar be at least one inch above the heads of the occupant(s). On the other hand, the BIR Performance Driver's school, whose one-day class I will have to attend before being allowed at anybody else's event, is a bit more vague:

If you have a convertible that you would like to drive during any of our Open Driving Event Dates, it must have a ROPS, also known as a Roll Over Protection System. We reserve the right to inspect your Roll Over Protection System prior to driving your convertible on the track. You may also drive a convertible on track if your vehicle has roll bars or a roll cage installed. If you have any question about ROPS, please contact us toll-free at: 1-866-511-7606

I guess I'll have to pick up the phone and give them a call.

A question for Wayne -- You have fairly intimate knowledge of the 818S as it currently exists. Base on your perspective of what a Track Day sanctioning body is likely to accept -- broomsticking from the rollbar to the forward part of the chassis -- do you think the 818S would pass muster?

[Wayne Presley]

A question for Wayne -- You have fairly intimate knowledge of the 818S as it currently exists. Base on your perspective of what a Track Day sanctioning body is likely to accept -- broomsticking from the rollbar to the forward part of the chassis -- do you think the 818S would pass muster?

The red car was on it's 2nd or 3rd roll bar varient and would also depend on the height of the driver, seat used...etc. so I really couldn't give you a good answer to the question.

[jimgood]

Well, I guess the real answer is "it depends". I've seen Porsche Boxsters, Z3s and Z4s in DE events in the NASA Mid-Atlantic region with nothing but the stock, popup rollbars. Your best bet is to talk to the DE event organizers that rent the tracks you listed and get their rules. I've never seen a tech inspector check the roll bar height with a helmeted driver with a broom stick or any other straight object. I've seen plenty of Miatas with helmets damn near on the same horizontal plane as the roll bar bombing around tracks.

Factory Five are not idiots. They wouldn't design a car that couldn't pass track day muster.

[Silvertop]

.............Factory Five are not idiots. They wouldn't design a car that couldn't pass track day muster.

Yeah, I gotta figure that's true. Banking on it, really.

[FFRSpec72]

Here are our conference rules for "driver training track days"


1. Convertibles are defined as cars with retractable tops, whether soft-top or folding hard top and all cars without any top.

2. Convertibles must use a 5- or 6-point harness for each occupant.

3. Cars equipped with only factory pop-up posts or similarly activated rollover protection are not allowed.

4. Cars with factory installed, fixed roll over protection (targas, T-Tops, etc) are a Cascade Sports Car Club decision on an individual basis.

5. The roll bar must be within 6 inches of the back of the occupants helmets and the top of the helmets must be below the top of the roll bar. If the roll bar is farther than 6 inches away from the back of the helmets, the top of the roll bar must be 2 inches above the top of the helmet and the occupants must pass a helmet reference plane standard.

6. Material, welding, bracing and mounting plates for roll bars must meet certain standards. Listed below are a few of the standards. Be sure to review the entire Appendix E for a complete list of roll bar standards.

[Silvertop]

It would be nice if all the various sanctioning bodies defined their rule(s) as well as the group identified in the previous post. Crystal clear. Thanks.

[FFRSpec72]

Factory Five are not idiots. They wouldn't design a car that couldn't pass track day muster.

This is really a matter of the insurance company that the event providers folks use, so this changes from event to event depending on the insurance company used. The insurance companies are really cracking down on convertibles. For the most part the FFR Roadster can't run track days here in the NW as the event providers use the same insurance company.

[0100]

This is the proper broomstick test. If it doesn't pass this, I personally would not drive it on the track.

17202

[Oppenheimer]

broomstick to top of windshield only makes sense for cars designed with a roll hoop built into the windshield support, such that the entire weight of the car (upside down) can be supported by just the windshield. I know that the S2000 was built this way (Honda made the effort to craft a letter stating such to the various clubs such as SCCA). It says a lot that a manufacturer would state that in this age of litigation.

The broomstick test shown in the pic linked above would work for any car. If you can pass that, you're good. Even with the allowance to go to the top of the windshield I would need a 6 inch lower seat in my S2K to pass this test. No way I'd ever pass measuring to the frame like in the pic. I'm really hoping an extra thin seat will allow me to pass broomstick (to frame) in 818.

[Xusia]

How tall are you?

[Wayne Presley]

How tall are you?
Who are you asking the question to?

[Silvertop]

How tall are you?

I'm only 5'9", w/average inseam to torso proportions. But I'm planning on using the stock Subaru seats. Not sure how much headroom that will leave me below the FFR built-in roll bar.

[Silvertop]

Who are you asking the question to?

Pretty sure he was asking me -- the OP on this particular thread. And it's a valid question -- though the more important question is how tall I am from the seat of my pants to the top of my helmet....... That's what will determine how the broomstick rollbar to front frame test will come out.

Independently of what various event organizers will allow, that is probably the only test that will verify that one is actually safe, unless one has a supported windshield or a full cage.......

[Xusia]

LOL - sorry. My bad. I was actually Oppenheimer. From the sound of it, either he's tall, or the S2000 is very small.

[Silvertop]

LOL - sorry. My bad. I was actually Oppenheimer. From the sound of it, either he's tall, or the S2000 is very small.

Come to think of it, Opp's statement was a bit worrisome to me. The last thing I want to do is put a very low, thin seat into my new 818. I'm too old to sit on the floor. I had originally looked at building a 550 Spyder replica -- until I sat in one. I'm just not bendy enough, and climbing in and out was difficult. As infatuated as I am with the 818, I know that it's not a whole lot taller than a 550 Spyder. So if I have to put a low, low seat into it in order to be sufficiently protected by the roll bar -- Well, I probably won't be doing any Track Days............

So, what's the deal, Opp? Just how tall are you?

[bnr32jason]

Count yourself lucky you are only 5'9"

Being 6'3" isn't exactly compatible with driving small sports cars, but I love them so I make concessions when needed. It's probably going to be required that I'm practically sitting on the floor. So it looks like a full-race bucket seat with side mounts is going to be my only option but I'm hoping that isn't true. Just going to have to wait and see when I sit in a couple local 818's.

[Wayne Presley]

For reference, I'm 5'10"

[Silvertop]

For reference, I'm 5' 10"

Wayne -- Do YOU pass the broomstick test in the 818S prototype? Or do you think you would have if you had checked? It's hard to make any kind of a reasonable judgement looking at photographs which show drivers in the car due to unknown camera angles. Also, it is not really clear who is sitting in the car in photographs. But it looks to me like it might be a close call.

How tall is John George?

It occurs to me that if we know going in that the 818S may have an issue with this, concerned individuals might be able to order it with a taller roll bar. Although that could impact other design features -- like fitting the car with its optional top. -- Aaargh! :p

[Xusia]

I have a lot of confidence FFR will have this worked out. I think too much is riding on this car for them to let something so easily addressable go wrong.

[Oppenheimer]

LOL - sorry. My bad. I was actually asking Oppenheimer. From the sound of it, either he's tall, or the S2000 is very small.

Its me, not the S2K. I'm only 6', but like Silvertop said, its waist up that matters here, and I'm all torso. I know guys that are 6' 5", and I'm taller then them sitting down. There are a lot of cars I just can't fit into, including many SUV's. Its turns out I often fit in small cars easier then large ones, as they tend to make subcompacts tall to make up some room.

When we were shopping for mid size SUV's about 10 years ago, the only one I found I could fit in was an Explorer. So that I can fit in and drive a car as small as the S2K with stock seats says its actually pretty accomodating. I tried to sit in a Miata once. If the seat was 6 inches lower I still wouldn't really fit. The '02 Explorer I just sold I had about the same clearance to roof as I have in the S with the top up (about a palm width). The S2K the issue is the rollbar is less accomodating than the top or the windshield (it can't be too high and the top still fit over it).

So 818 I expect to have to use carefully chosen (low, thin) seats. But I'm hoping that is all I need to do to fit for track days.

[Silvertop]

I have a lot of confidence FFR will have this worked out. I think too much is riding on this car for them to let something so easily addressable go wrong.

I think there is a very good chance you are right about that, particularly since FFR seems to have made wookie compatibility a design goal. And it occurs to me that keeping the roll bar functional is equally important whether driving on a track or on the street.