818 Completed = Cheap K1 Attack Completed = $60k+? Why?

[bnr32jason]

I was just looking around at different kits today that could be considered the 818's "competition" and I remembered seeing a Top Gear episode featuring a K1 Attack.

So I looked it up, and the kit price is only about double our kit price, so what's the deal? Why are these things selling for anywhere from $60k to $450k?

For example, if you wanted to use a 1992 Honda Prelude as your donor car, the kit will cost you just under $23k shipped to the US. I understand the price of the kit with the complex body shapes, seats included, etc, etc. But $23k + a $3000 Honda Prelude + labor = $60k or more?

They look GREAT, I like the 818's looks, but the K1 really has that aggressive supercar look to it.

Is anyone familiar with these cars and why it's apparently so expensive to complete them? Is there some kind of difficult custom work involved here? What makes our 818's build process so affordable?

For reference:

http://www.b-racing.cz/en/k1_attack_kit_car_en/#
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu79/K1_Attack/SDC10175.jpg

[michael everson]

It's really irrelevant since they are no longer available. I have always wanted to do one. I built one of there K-1 Evoluizione kits years ago. Not really on par with anything FFR offers. Not sure of the quality of the Attack. Never got to see a kit in person.
Mike

[bnr32jason]

I was unaware they were no longer available. The website is up and running, but I haven't tried to call or e-mail them since I'm not a potential buyer.

I'm new to the kit car world, so perhaps the 818 has skewed my perspective a bit. It just seems odd that a $20,000 kit and a $3000 Honda donor would somehow come out to $60k or more.

I mean we spend $10k on the kit, then anywhere from maybe $3000-$10000 on the kit, do you think completed 818's will sell for 3x the kit + donor price? So roughly $45,000? It just seems a little ridiculous. I could understand $45k for a fully built 450hp 818 turnkey ready to go, but these Attacks are/were going for $60k+ just as a base model Accord donor.

[Erik W. Treves]

your math is off...wheels and tires are not included, paint, and most of all labor. Then you add the fact that you can't just go "buy" one anywhere...shoot I have never even seen one in person...this all adds up. You can by a FFR Mark IV complete kit for 20k and a donor for 3k, good luck finding one that somebody is willing to give away for less than $25,000...likely 30-45K depending on the quality and extras. Might go look at the corba classifieds...mine will be for sale whe I am done...and 20K won't get it.

[Turboguy]

If you took the styling and execution of this car, and added FFR's driveline & manufacturing experience, Factory Five would become part of the "big three" within a year.


Really sad, as they were alerted to the fact that K-1 was having issues and had their design & assets up for sale a LONG time ago.

[bnr32jason]

I understand what you are saying, but $25k for the kit + donor and the Attack sells for $60k in base spec, using a simple unmodded H22 Honda engine.

The Mark IV donor + kit would be $23k and they are selling for on average $35k (some more some less).


Turboguy: That's interesting, if you go by their website it looks like they are up and running and in business. Maybe that's why there are so few around? The potential that the bottom could fall out from under the company and then parts support will be non-existent? At least with Factory Five we know they are going to be around next week, next year, and probably even next decade.

[Mechie3]

You can by a FFR Mark IV complete kit for 20k and a donor for 3k, good luck finding one that somebody is willing to give away for less than $25,000...likely 30-45K depending on the quality and extras. Might go look at the corba classifieds...mine will be for sale whe I am done...and 20K won't get it.

Several people posted previously in other threads that you can buy a completed cobra for less than the cost of a donor and kit and there's no money in building them. That didn't make sense to me, and what you say goes against that. I don't know either way,but am intrigued to see how it goes.

[VD2021]

http://vraptorspeedworks.com/2010/vrsw-k-1-attack/

[Erik W. Treves]

Several people posted previously in other threads that you can buy a completed cobra for less than the cost of a donor and kit and there's no money in building them. That didn't make sense to me, and what you say goes against that. I don't know either way,but am intrigued to see how it goes.

I am just speaking from my own experience of actually building two different kit cars (Locost 7 and FFR MARK I) and then selling them (profit on both). Would like to see what those cobras looked and drove like...granted the cobra scene is a little flooded right now so this is driving the prices down...and you're right what I am saying does go against that! The people that can't do it don't know how to effectively manage the cost of a build or have access to part sources well below retail...that's why there are very few Pro-kitcar builders. THere are several here on this forum and the other who have done just that... take a look at the GTM pricing for a complete car that somebody is selling...low population = $$$$$

If you still think I am off...let me be the first to offer you $15,000 for your kit (complete) when you're done....love to be first on that list as well... :)

[Jeff Kleiner]

The Mark IV donor + kit would be $23k and they are selling for on average $35k (some more some less).


Like Erik I've built a few, both for myself as well as for customers and you're math isn't accounting for everything.....that $23K for a kit and donor doesn't get you replacements for worn donor parts, tires, wheels, bodywork, paint, incidentals or assembly of the car. Also remember that listing an Attack for sale at $60K is one thing but actually making a sale for that amount could be a different story.

Cheers,
Jeff

[michael everson]

People can list there cars for whatever price they want. That doesn't mean it will sell for that. I've seen some FFR Cobras in my area for sale for years. They are obviously overpriced if they are on the market for that long. It's a buyers market right now for pretty much anything. That includes specialty cars.
Mike

[bnr32jason]

But that's the thing, of the few Attacks I've seen for sale, the least expensive one was $60k. There's probably not a huge market for them, but I've seen a few advertised at over $100k. But even if they aren't getting $60k, that's still doubling the price of the kit + donor. Is that about right for kit cars? So can we expect to be able to sell our well-built 818's for $35k?

[michael everson]

I would be surprised if they sold for that much. I feel it's going to be such a popular kit, that the market will be flooded with them in a few years. Prices of Cobra replicas were much higher (relative) before FFR started making them. They have added potentially 8000 Cobras to the market over the years. Probably more than all the other manufacturers combined.
I have built many cars over the years and can tell you, a good starting point, price wise is twice what the kit costs you. Then go up from there when you start making changes.

[PhyrraM]

I've seen one Attack up close. It was about 2 years ago at the local "Rod Run" (?!?) in Temecula, CA. This particular Attack was terribly unimpressive. It looked pretty good at 15 feet, but as you got closer you saw things like ill-fitting headlights and tail lights. The door fit was very loose and sloppy (lambo doors). The 'thru-the-hood" shock mounts look bad in person. They look like an afterthought, with weak looking painted steel tubes anchoring plain looking coilover ends.

I don't know how much can be attributed to the kit or to the build, but the overall impression was pretty weak. I hope the 818 will be much better. A car should get better, not worse, the closer you get.

[skullandbones]

I have built many cars over the years and can tell you, a good starting point price wise is twice what the kit costs you. Then go up from there when you start making changes.

I think the x2 formula is pretty close. I have about 23K in mine without paint but with some changes like racing pedals and BBK headers, etc, (labor for an amateur 1st time builder is so variable). I don't know how you guys make money on building the kit cars but more power to you. With the pressure of low numbers (Attack), sometimes the seller gains leverage and also how bad does the buyer want it. Just like houses, the real value is seen ONLY after the sale. WEK.

[Mechie3]

I am just speaking from my own experience of actually building two different kit cars (Locost 7 and FFR MARK I) and then selling them (profit on both). Would like to see what those cobras looked and drove like...granted the cobra scene is a little flooded right now so this is driving the prices down...and you're right what I am saying does go against that! The people that can't do it don't know how to effectively manage the cost of a build or have access to part sources well below retail...that's why there are very few Pro-kitcar builders. THere are several here on this forum and the other who have done just that... take a look at the GTM pricing for a complete car that somebody is selling...low population = $$$$$

If you still think I am off...let me be the first to offer you $15,000 for your kit (complete) when you're done....love to be first on that list as well... :)

I didn't think you were off, just seeing two different opinions and having no personal knowledge just interested in hearing more. I certainly couldn't sell my 818 for $15k. I offered to a local guy for $30k since he keeps asking what it would cost to build one. It'd be hard to part with (as the donor was my first new car ever) but for 100% profit? I'd have to do it. :lol:

[Evan78]

IF the Attack is no longer available, prices could do anything since the supply becomes finite.

[mrmustang]

People can list there cars for whatever price they want. That doesn't mean it will sell for that. I've seen some FFR Cobras in my area for sale for years. They are obviously overpriced if they are on the market for that long. It's a buyers market right now for pretty much anything. That includes specialty cars.
Mike

X2, there is a reason why I am not flipping Cobras right now. I used to do 4-6 a year, and brokered another 10-15 a year. The market is over-saturated with both terribly built, and well built cars. Owners/sellers are not being realistic in their prices, so it is not worth my time to chase them down and attempt to educate them as to the real world market. Some get it, others see the cars being sold on the Barrett Jackson auctions and believe they can get the same or greater price for their cars. I could go on and on, but by now you get my drift. Mike knows............

Bill S.

[Juicie]

IF the Attack is no longer available, prices could do anything since the supply becomes finite.

But they are not unavailable as you can see on the site of b-racing. They are still building kits and have developed a new K1 based on a MR2 from Toyota. I always liked the look of the car but havn't steen ons up close zo I can't commentaar on the build quality.

Lately I have been looking at the kit ars of Luso motors in portugal, looking good but looks they are working con tot lang things at the same time.

[Evan78]

Having a running website and cars being readily available are two different things. I'm just speculating and have no knowledge of the current state of the Attack kits or the company, but they could be shaky financially, have a huge backlog, etc, etc. I would not be surprised at all to see a car that probably has very low numbers like that go for $20-$30k over the parts cost.

[Matty_STi]

looked at an attack years ago (when I was big into hondas), but they've all but died. they company started selling turn key cars (but killed off the kits) awhile ago out of europe but that dried up too I believe...

Matt

[Turboguy]

ITurboguy: That's interesting, if you go by their website it looks like they are up and running and in business. Maybe that's why there are so few around? The potential that the bottom could fall out from under the company and then parts support will be non-existent? At least with Factory Five we know they are going to be around next week, next year, and probably even next decade.


I've heard it's different people behind it now - the original company sold off the rights to the design & manufacturing jigs. I actually inquired when they first listed everything for sale.


There is also another company out there that was building "turnkey" K1 kits and sold them for he equivalent of an arm, eye and your left nut.

[bnr32jason]

Yeah, that turnkey Attack company is one of the reasons I questioned the cost. I think they are selling for $100k+ for even a basic model. $20k kit + Honda donor = $100k production car?

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Having built an Attack before, I can honestly say that I wouldn't even consider building another one (if you could even still get a kit) for $60k. I'd end up making about $5/hr selling it for that kind of money. I will say it was (and IMO still is) one of the best looking kits ever made....but building one was not exactly easy or fun by any means. Absolutely NO mounting provisions for about 80% of the components on the car. If you were holding a part in your hand, there was an 80% chance that you needed to figure out where you were going to mount that part, and what you were going to use to mount the part to the car....and then fabricate the bracket/mount yourself from your own purchased materials. No instruction manual with the car......instead you got something like 9 CD-ROM's full of short 30-second to 3-minute long video clips.....and all of the video clips were labeled in czech, so unless you happened to be fluent in that language, you ended up sorting thru something like 3000 video clips looking for the part of the build you happened to be working on at the moment. Keep in mind that this is at a time when a big hard-drive in a computer was 20 GB.....and if you spent several hundred dollars more, you could upgrade to a computer with 30 GB. Needless to say, I could not afford the space on my HD to save all of the CD's directly to the hard drive, so no way of re-naming the videos in English. It was quite an experience.

[Dave Smith]

We looked at this car very close and for three days of track testing so I can speak with some knowledge about the car (and kit car industry). Products succeed for alot of reasons, but just looking good isnt enough. I watched as the editors of Car and Driver were told it was 1800 lbs and then it was scaled at north of 2500. The car pulled up to the drag strip line for the first time, rev'd the engine and snapped the half shaft... never getting a single run in. I actually like the way the car looked, but to succeed requires a complex matrix of build ability, engineering, performance, driving manners, upgrades down the road, replacement parts, registration issues, safety and a million other considerations. I just wanted to add my simple thoughts to the discussion that a product like the 818 requires a heck of alot of vectors to be managed. We've been pretty good at it over the years. We have a long way to go and I think our 818 platform gives us a great start for future products as well as having helped us learn a tremendous amount on the CAD shaping to mold making process that is integral to future designs that may be more "radical".

[bnr32jason]

Thanks for the response Dave!

I'm surprised by such a large difference in the claimed weight vs actual with the Attack. Perhaps their 1800lb claimed weight is without an engine/transmission and wiring.

I'm very happy to hear you may be open to designing something more radical in the future. Like I said, I really like the looks of the 818, it's fairly unassuming for those days when you just want to fly under the radar and not get much notice. But there are the times that turning heads driving slowly through town is fun too. If we can get the 818 performance and reliability with an optional super aggressive body, I'd be sold for life. :)

[RM1SepEx]

The "complte" kit is about $20K + donor, Lambo doors and alignment with the designed body creases have to be a *****, most kits from other companies are not "engineered" they are designed and assembled by craftsman. That yields a more difficult build. Add the labor and cost for a quality paint job...

most kits from many companies languish and never get complted because the don't actually bolt together without some serious craftwork, many buyers don't have the time or capabilities.

Add a foreign language to the mix!

I like the $5.00 / hr quote from Vraptor above...

[Nuul]

It'd be hard to part with (as the donor was my first new car ever) but for 100% profit? I'd have to do it.

I've thought about this a lot actually. I get $$$$$ in my eyes until I think about the legal liability (which I know nothing about). If I was churning out an 818 every two weeks and selling it am I now a car manufacturer? Technically I'm selling a car that doesn't meet crash standards. You have no idea how many times I've started to write up a business plan for selling these things to guys that don't have the skill & time to make one. It's too bad you don't drink, this is an over beer conversation I've been wanting to have with someone who "gets it."

[Mechie3]

Michael Leveque in Anderson, IN does this. His most recent acquisition is a Ford GT-40 kit. He mostly builds Lotus 7's out of S2000 components. His shop does other stuff too.

He doesn't turn them out every 2 weeks though, and grosses about $14k per build (thought Lotus 7's are much simpler). Forget what he said it cost to build. He built most of the 4 or 5 lotus that compete in Indy region.

My guess is you sell them as non street legal cars, have them sign legal forms, and absolve yourself of liability if they decide to legalize it. Something simple like not installing head lights or other items so that you have physically not sold a street legal item that they need to convert.

You can still get the attack as a turnkey car. It's now called the renovatio T500, is built in Slovenia, and costs $370k. Of course, it now comes with the audi RS4 V8 too. I would absolutely die if FFR made an 818 body like this. Don't get me wrong, I like the 818 and am super excited to get one, but this looks like a lambo. Of course, it wouldn't cost $10k either (well, maybe for just the body).

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/others/2012-tushek-renovatio-t500-ar126660.html

http://gearheads.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/tushek-renovatio-t500-front-side.jpg

[carbon fiber]

that body/roll up windows/removable targa top, on an 818 chassis/running gear. you'd have a ten year order backlog, even with an increased price.

[bnr32jason]

I will happily pay $10k+ for just the body if Factory Five makes it as cool looking as that.

[D2W]

that is integral to future designs that may be more "radical".

I'm happy to hear you are thinking along these lines. I find the current design a little bland, which keeps me on the fence. An aggressive style like the attack or the original pencil drawing by Murray Phaff (sp) would push me over the top.

[thestigwins]

If you like the attack, chances are that you will love the superlite apex. It is coming together very nicely. However, this is twice the price of the 818 and I think people need to realize that when comparing. http://www.gt40s.com/forum/rcr-forum-rcr40-slc-p4-mkiv/36893-superlite-gta-25.html#post379549

[FFR-ADV]

We have a long way to go and I think our 818 platform gives us a great start for future products as well as having helped us learn a tremendous amount on the CAD shaping to mold making process that is integral to future designs that may be more "radical".

Hi Dave,

By more "radical" do you mean pure track like "Radical SR3"?

Length: 4.10m
Height: 1.04m
Width: 1.79m
Min Weight: 570 kg
Max Speed:: 155mph
0-60mph: 3.1 sec
50-100mph: 5.3 sec
Braking G's: 2.0
Cornering G's: 2.5

17415

For pure track an 818 with this type of Aero Downforce on an FFR 818 tube chassis... That would be "RADICAL"

The 818 is truly great and I am excited to get my 818SR into assembly mode in a handful of months. Great job by Jim and the whole 818 development and build team!

Cheers!

[Mechie3]

The side profile of that apex looks like a widebody of vmans 818 hardtop coupe.

[bnr32jason]

I've been following the production of the SLC Apex but I'm just not pleased with the body design. Yes, it looks more supercar-ish than the 818 but there are just too many straight lines and edges. It doesn't have the "sex appeal" that the Attack has, and really not even as much as the 818 has. I want some nice smooth sweeping lines mixed in with hard edges.

[bbjones121]

If only FFR continued the lower rear side vent curves into the door, I think the 818 would have had a more exotic look. It is typically only exotics that have that styling.

[flynntuna]

If only FFR continued the lower rear side vent curves into the door, I think the 818 would have had a more exotic look. It is typically only exotics that have that styling.

It's might be a mixed blessing that the first bodies are coming out in fiberglass, it makes it easier to modify. The side vent is something I would consider making some changes, though seeing it in person I may change my mind.

[Oppenheimer]

If you like the attack, chances are that you will love the superlite apex. It is coming together very nicely. However, this is twice the price of the 818 and I think people need to realize that when comparing. http://www.gt40s.com/forum/rcr-forum-rcr40-slc-p4-mkiv/36893-superlite-gta-25.html#post379549

That is a good point about the price difference. Also, the RCR Apex is based off the shell of Mitsu Eclipse. Thats good and bad, but I feel the bad outweighs the good.

But consider this, what would a $20K 818 kit look like?

[bbjones121]

Don't like that Apex at all. It definitely screams kit car. It is a lambo want to be. The 818 is unique, that is why I like it.

[Xusia]

Technically the Apex is unique as well in that it's not designed to look like an existing car. In this case it sounds like the styling of the Apex reminds you of existing cars whereas the 818 does not!

[bbjones121]

The apex looks like a flat panelled kit car. Don't get me wrong, I love RCRs coupe and exo razor, but the Apex doesn't do it for me. Maybe the production version will...

[Turboguy]

I have a feeling if FFR hired the body stylist who penned that K-1 we'd all be in automotive heaven.


Don't get me wrong - FFR has done an AMAZING job since their inception. 99% of companies out there can't even dream of accomplishing 1/2 of what they have.


They make a first class product from an engineering, mechanical design and manufacturing standpoint. Their last hurdle -in my opinion- will be overcome by hiring (or contracting out to) a professional body stylist, rather than having their car's "clothing" designed by their current in-house engineers. We all know that overalls and flannel shirts are functional, practical and what we need in the garage, but when it's time to "step out" for the evening we put on something from a designer like Calvin Klein when we want to turn heads.

[shinn497]

I say just make olmos's design or one of vman's mods.

I also say release it as is and keep it 10k. If I wanted to spend 20k on a kit car, I'd get a gtm...

I'm actually super worried that the demand might increase the price. It is backordered until 2014 0.o. I hope FFR increases production in the future. I just noticed the gtm is now 25k ;_;.

I say this because I'm thinking ahead to the mark 2 818. I'm wondering what additions and improvements they'll add.

[Darkpiggy's dad]

Hi Shinn,
I think that the design goal of a $10,000 kit is pretty important to the project, and I wouldn't worry about a price increase in the near future. I feel like FFR is a pretty tight ship. I think you're pretty secure for awhile.

[dis1]

Just had to register when I saw this thread... Yes, I am one of but a select few currently building this kit and can be found under the same name on the Attack forum, dis1. I bought an incomplete kit on eBay about 2 years ago. I had been thinking about doing a kit car for years after finishing tinkering with my Rx-7. Requirements for me mostly came down to tube frame, engine behind the seats and original design, not a copy like a cobra. This was limiting and left me with the GTM, Attack and a few others. 818 might have been on the list but at that time it wasn't even a rumor yet.

Anyway, I think the topic of price was already covered. Forget about build time and just consider base price plus things like paint and wheels and you are already close to 30K. I believe $60K is a fair price and I would never sell one for less than $40K. I plan to spend probably around that much just building mine, which includes a big discount on the kit, built and turboed engine, paint, many small parts etc. I mean unless you go stock then you are spending on everything from a nice steering wheel to an upgraded fuel pump.

As mentioned earlier the build itself is very complex and mostly all custom. This is not a bolt together kit, that's for sure. Even things that are bolt together should be "looked at" to see if it is a good design. I spent the first year creating my own instructions and finding my missing parts, which was a huge deal considering they were out of business. B-racing is back now though and starting to crank kits out. I have talked with them (Petr) a few times now. They are doing a good bit of R&D to improve things that were lacking in the original design. I'm looking forward to spending some cash lol. Their staff is small though so they already have a backlog.

Factory 5 is so far ahead of anybody in the market that you would have to be crazy to build a kit by anybody else. Yup, I called myself crazy. So why? Well I sat in the GTM and hated the seating position. I sat in an Attack and loved it. In the GTM I felt like I was on a sled getting ready to go down a snowy hill with no control. The K1 Attack was like being in my Rx-7, the best drivers car I have ever been in so far. That meant a lot to me, as did the striking styling and the exclusivity of the car being that only about 40 were ever made at that time. Also, price was a factor as doing a GTM can really get expensive. 818 is in all respects great (especially price) but doesn't look like a super car.

Lastly I wanted to pitch in a thread from the Attack forum on that Car and Driver article. http://www.attackforums.com/showthread.php?t=2208 Unless these are bold face lies, which I doubt, it really puts a different spin on that article.

[longislandwrx]

Post some pictures of your kit. I've never seen what the parts look like "as shipped" only what they look like assembled with 2000hrs labor put into them and 10k paint jobs.

[dis1]

I suck at taking pictures so I don't have too many. However you can see a few on my build page over at the attack forum: http://www.attackforums.com/showthread.php?t=2823&page=2

[gpaterson]

Just a quick update on the K-1 Attack.

It seems that they are alive and well in Slovakia at http://www.b-racing.cz/en/k1_attack_kit_car_en.

I have swapped a couple of emails with the company and they sell both complete kits as well as the body only - fibreglass panels (both exterior and interior). I thought it was worth a shot to see if I could acquire a great looking body that already has a roof and retrofit it to FFR818 chassis! It would seem to me to be the best of both worlds. I was quoted a cost of $7,900 for the kit that actually didn't seem too bad.

Even though it has almost the same wheelbase, it does seem a lot of work to adapt to the 818 chassis without a CAD of both the body and chassis. Maybe sometime down the track once I have a little more knowledge of these things.

Anybody else have any thoughts on the matter?

[icky]

I saw an orange k1 on the the street a few weeks ago, looked like $#!^. I'll keep my 818 on order.

[onelastproject]

that body/roll up windows/removable targa top, on an 818 chassis/running gear. you'd have a ten year order backlog, even with an increased price.

That is the funny quirky frustrating thing about Americans designs, it does not cost more to make a more exiting design, yet seems we keep getting American designs. I was way excited when I saw all the design concepts for the 818. Seems the had more exciting designs to select but opted for mere generic design which is fine just not as exciting. I'm sure lots like the design just fine.
Slope the front, scoop the sides add some angles. But what do I know.

The attack chassis is pretty flimsy btw, saw a torsion test on it a member on attackforums did it.

[wleehendrick]

Holy thread revival, Batman!


I was way excited when I saw all the design concepts for the 818. Seems the had more exciting designs to select but opted for mere generic design which is fine just not as exciting. I'm sure lots like the design just fine.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=36060&d=1417123377

36060

[fact5racer]

I'm lucky to have the best of both worlds. Whereas this spring my 818R will be done which in turns gives a "disposable" purpose built track car that I and drive the crap out of with crazy lap times, http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r567/fact5racer/IMG_16491.jpg (http://s1172.photobucket.com/user/fact5racer/media/IMG_16491.jpg.html)
And then when I want pure beauty, I can take my GTM-X out for a drive.
http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r567/fact5racer/IMG_07491.jpg (http://s1172.photobucket.com/user/fact5racer/media/IMG_07491.jpg.html)

[onelastproject]

As far as I can tell the Attack is just a weekend fun car, not an actual performance/track drivers car like the 818. Anyhow...
it "looks" like, to me at least, that the Sin R1 is based on the Attack body at least, even has the Ultima'ish interior, although I think the K1 looks better still.


http://www.zercustoms.com/news/images/Miscellaneous/Sin-R1-8.jpg

[henrygjose]

We looked at this car very close and for three days of track testing so I can speak with some knowledge about the car (and kit car industry). Products succeed for alot of reasons, but just looking good isnt enough. I watched as the editors of Car and Driver were told it was 1800 lbs and then it was scaled at north of 2500. The car pulled up to the drag strip line for the first time, rev'd the engine and snapped the half shaft... never getting a single run in. I actually like the way the car looked, but to succeed requires a complex matrix of build ability, engineering, performance, driving manners, upgrades down the road, replacement parts, registration issues, safety and a million other considerations. I just wanted to add my simple thoughts to the discussion that a product like the 818 requires a heck of alot of vectors to be managed. We've been pretty good at it over the years. We have a long way to go and I think our 818 platform gives us a great start for future products as well as having helped us learn a tremendous amount on the CAD shaping to mold making process that is integral to future designs that may be more "radical".

Thanks for this insight. I've been interested in K1 since day 1 but I am unsure of the quality, the company and all. You made such great points and they have been parts of the reason I haven't bought. I've help build a 355 fiero kit but I don't really want a replica on a fiero chassis. You guys at FFR are the most solid, transparent, company I've followed for years even way before GTM and I got excited about the GTM (even though I'm more of a lambo "type" look guy) and was about to order years ago but with the economic crash (being in real estate and mortgage) just not a possibility financially. I'm seriously thinking of the GTM or 818 in the next 12 months. Probably find a "unfinished" gtm/818 project first. I want to be able to track it yet comfortable enough to be driven in the streets with "real car" amenities like AC.