818 Update Being Sent Today

[Dave Smith]

Guys,

We've been pretty busy here at FFR getting ready for production and I figured I'd swing on by the forum and see how things are going... I read the "Ugly-Stick" thread and well I guess I think the car looks pretty good and as we go forward I think the design has a bright future.

https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/IMG_2163.jpg

As far as a "shut-down" of information, I have tried repeatedly to say that as the design approaches production and serious performance testing drives engineering changes at this point, the period for meaningful community involvement on the body shape has sorta eclipsed (for the most part). I do intend on having the soft top design concurrent or close to the June production launch. VMan did a beautiful removable hard top design that I intend to look at with the team carefully once past product launch.

https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/OH4A2830.jpg

I have sent out 5 monthly updates starting on November 20, 2012 to those on the pre-order email list, so the information at this point is being funneled to the buyers. Frankly the project is incredibly on target and I think the path has been executed very well. I can point to other projects that were guided by Facebook and forum input and have been so poorly executed that the development path is a text book of what not to do and the car reflects it...

Not so with the 818. The 818 project is going according to a well written and well executed plan. The car is great and looks really good in person and at speed. I have another monthly update going out today, but I can leave you with this...

The car was tested by a top tier magazine and the private communication I got from the editor after he drove the car at full-tilt was this,

"Smith, **** that car's a rocket!... Ran under 4 seconds to 60 and it's like driving a mini can-am car... Job well done!"

That was a private note to me but knowing the source it speaks volumes about the competence of the design, that has to satisfy a large list of design goals/criteria, looks being one of many.

A lot of guys have asked about whether the car is going to be at the Huntington Beach Cruise-In this coming weekend and unfortunately, both current chassis (818R and S) are in North Carolina with the crew from KONI for final shock testing.

The good news is we continue to be on target and the first production kit will ship in June as planned.

More in the update shortly.

[longislandwrx]

16860

yes.

[Xusia]

Seriously; can't wait to build one. SERIOUSLY...

[Presto51]

Dave,

Just want to say thanks to you and your crew for a job well done on the 818 project.

Don’t listen/worry about those “keyboard commandos” who come with nothing but negative energy, since obviously, they don’t have a clue as to know how complicated this whole build a car from scratch stuff is. I’m willing to go out on a limb without seeing the 818 in person, to say that it’s going be like the GTM, down right awesome looking.

So here’s to you and the Factory Five gang, Salute With The High Five!

Ron

[THE ITALIAN]

Dave
The car is far from fugly, besides the performance, the idea alone is what attracts me.
Rear engine and very low gravity is very hard to get unless you have "Italian money" Ferrari, Lambo... and then you have insurance, maintenance and security problems.
I would put any doubts on the back burner, I know it is not well received over at FFCARS, but that is because they are not into it.
It's like when I bring my FFR4277 to a hot rod car show, very few hotrod owners look at my car, but it is a crowd pleaser always.
I'm not yet on the list, however, I am searching for a real good donor.

[kach22i]

Nice photos, they couldn't have been cheap.

[Mechie3]

Just got the email. :D

[shinn497]

I'm glad you read threads dave. Btw, I remember you said earlier that you weren't satisfied with the design. I believe this was sometime after SEMA. Will you do any sort of polishing? I'm not talking about massive changes but little things to make it look cleaner. I.E. Smoothing out bodywork, improving panel fitment, etc. etc.

[Gus]

vman did a beautiful removable hard top design that i intend to look at with the team carefully once past product launch.



yes!!!!!!!!!

[Kalstar]

yes!!!!!!!!!

Sub 4 sec. Ya baby!

[bbjones121]

Glad to see Vman may be getting in on this. He has done a fabulous job with renderings.

June is going to come so slowly!

[BipDBo]

16861
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_2-Eleven
http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2008/02/lotus0205

The 818R has an almost identical twin, the Lotus 211
The comparison has been made before, but the more that comes out about the 818, the closer the resemblance.
Lotus 211:
curb weight: 1477#
drivetrain: mid engine forced induction 4 cyl
power: 252 bhp
body style: open roadster, no windshield
0-60: 3.8 seconds

US road legal: no
price: about $80,000

[longislandwrx]

SUB 4.0 on 265hp OTS map... not even a protune. I'm starting to get scared again. Time to put the lawyer on retainer.

[Dave Smith]

https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/818srear.jpg

One of the things I've noticed between people's feedback on photographs vs. seeing the car in real life is that the curves of the car don't show well in photos. The car has some beautiful curves. I think this photo shows some of what I'm talking about.

As far as panel fitment we are way ahead of any other FFR car and the development work on body molding process has been great but still not ready for prime time. One of the cool things about the way we made the body is that it does lend itself to making changes to individaul panels (or the nose lower, etc). Still, for now I am satisfied with the shape and will do nothing until we get into production.

The Lotus is definitely lighter, BUT the performance of the car is really stellar. Super rigid chassis and with Koni's help and some more track time, this car will embarass so many other "storied" cars. I think the guys delivered on the design goals.

Dave

lastly: photos are by Dino Petrocelli. His work is excellent and really shows the quality of the engineering, fitment, design the guys have made.

[Mechie3]

Panel fitment looks better than my Subaru in that pic.

It'd be cool to see a zebra stripe image of the body in solidworks.

[BipDBo]

As far as panel fitment we are way ahead of any other FFR car and the development work on body molding process has been great but still not ready for prime time. One of the cool things about the way we made the body is that it does lend itself to making changes to individaul panels (or the nose lower, etc).

The Lotus is definitely lighter, BUT the performance of the car is really stellar. Super rigid chassis and with Koni's help and some more track time, this car will embarass so many other "storied" cars. I think the guys delivered on the design goals.

Dave


Dave,
Body:
* It's my understanding that the first few kits will come with standard gelcoat. Is this correct? Do you think that the paintless body panels are going to happen eventually? If so, when?
* Can you elaborate on the future paintless panels? I've read talk about thermo- moulded plastic, but I haven't eard anything official. I don't know if it's the eventual plan to use plastic everywhrer or just for certain parts. Are the paintless panels plastic with solid color throughout like the original Saturn bodies? Or are they some kind of factory coated or painted fiberglass
* How does the body lend itself to changes? I thought that the paintless body panels were more difficult to cut and modify than standard fiberglass panels that you paint. Do you mean that the panels will be easy to modify, or do you mean that it will be easy to bolt on different style panels, if you've got the skills to fabricate them?

818 vs Lotus:
I thought I remember a post a while ago that the 818R came in at around 1500#, and the street version was about 1750#. Is this memory close to accurate? Do you have any official specs (weight, F/R distr, etc.)?

Just curious, are you just releasing these updates to kill the "ugly stick" thread?
If so, I hope it works.

[metalmaker12]

Nice work FFR, I paid my donor taxes, my parts are all ready, and I am coming to the open house to pay in full on my order, I can not wait any longer!!!! It is such a cool ride, and with 300-350whp this car is a super car

[Vman7]

Thanks for the update Dave :) Going to be real exciting come launch time int june!!

[Dave Smith]

The car is faster than our challenge cars right now. That is a HUGE statement. Watch a Challenge car go around VIR and you'll understand the gravity of that. There are VERY FEW cars that can match this car's performance and it is a pure function of engineering maturity in the design team. When you consider the price-to-performance ratio it literally has no competition and occupies its own niche.

Body molding has been the biggest challenge. I think we'll launch in white or red or blue gel-coat with conventional hand-laid panels with no mold parting lines as the parts are all small panels that can release from high quality molds. The work on thermo-forming process is ongoing, but not successful at this time. By body changes, I meant that the plugs, or master shapes are in CAD and can be modified with new panels relatively easily.

As far as releasing updates "to kill the ugly stick thread"?! Sometimes I dont know what to say. The scope, investment, partners, complexity and challenge of this project makes it very difficult to find time to keep up on the forums, and if I had the precious time, I doubt I would spend it in such a manner, engaging in a conversation of opinions that can neither be changed, nor affect the critical path to launch and the execution of the project.

I've made regular updates, as promissed, kept to a strict development path, hit every target date, made design goals and kept to them, and involved a community to the degreee possible that would present the car the biggest advantages and the least liabilities. In the end, I get the blame or credit for the result. As we close in on production, I am feeling pretty confident that it'll fall alot heavier towards the credit side than the blame side.

I'll go further. Without the yoke of divided leadership, I've seen a remarkable year indeed... one of the greatest ever in FFR hsitory and with the fellowship and synchronized work of this experienced and truly talented staff, I believe Factory Five Racing will (has) become one of the great iconic performance automobile companies in the world. Years from now I think they will write about what you and I are doing here, with the 818, with our community, and with these amazing designs that are born from passion of real people, committed to doing something great and meaningful. I gotta get home!

[bnr32jason]

Thanks for the updates and the responses!

Don't worry about the "ugly stick" thread, that was one man's opinion. Beauty is subjective by nature, a few of us have been trying to turn that thread towards more positive and constructive discussion.


Now a question if you have time to answer:

You mention the potential for a soft-top version available at or around launch time, with it being so close, have you nailed down a price for the additional soft top? Also is it something that can be retrofit to the current 818 bodywork? Or does it use different body panels with attachment points built-in?

Thanks again Dave!

[Gus]

the car is faster than our challenge cars right now.

say what!!!!!!

Wow!!!!!

[wallace18]

.Thanks for the update. I don't care what others think, that car is awesome to look at IMO. My 33 will be done in time for me to pick up my 818. Can't wait. Great job guys!

[Xusia]

I'm really excited about the performance aspect, and am happy to see that coming together so well. I'm sure I'll be overjoyed by mine when it's completed. :)

[bnr32jason]

Seriously, at roughly 260hp if they are hitting 60 in under 4seconds, seems like 100 more horsepower (300whp) would have us in the very low 3's if we can get traction. Wow!

[metalmaker12]

That's 260whp in the 818r, 300-325whp will be a mid to low 3 sec 0-60. Btw this is freaking awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bnr32jason]

I thought their engine was from a 2006 WRX and was close to stock? Don't they make 230hp stock? I figured with a good exhaust and mild tune that would end up being 260 crank horsepower. Did they do other mods to get the 260whp on the 818R test mule?

[Xusia]

I was thinking the same, but I can't recall why I have that impression.

[AMW1011]

This is tremendous news Dave, thank you for sharing. I think that what you should take away from the "ugly stick" thread is that there are a lot of people that are very happy about the design, the majority of those here love it, and most of us have a good understanding of what this whole thing is all about: your producing a project not a just car and any alternate preferences are perfectly within the builder's ability to incorporate. Like you said yourself, the modular panel design makes any customization much more accessible and cheaper. These kits are so much more than the basic specifications, let alone some of the amazing cars they produce.

More than anything, I hope you and the rest of the guys at FFR have a sense of the excitement we have for the 818 and appreciation we have for your hard work and frankly damn impressive engineering. Hell your winning over people on Nasioc, which is almost impossible.

[Silvertop]

Body molding has been the biggest challenge. I think we'll launch in white or red or blue gel-coat with conventional hand-laid panels with no mold parting lines as the parts are all small panels that can release from high quality molds. The work on thermo-forming process is ongoing, but not successful at this time. By body changes, I meant that the plugs, or master shapes are in CAD and can be modified with new panels relatively easily.


Can we interpret that to mean that all three of those gel-coat colors will likely be available at launch?? Or that you guys will pick one of them and go with it? Here's hoping it's the former............:)

Exciting!!!!

[philly15]

^ i dont care what color it is....as long as its blue haha

[bbjones121]

Can't wait. This car will be awesome. I hope you get the option of those three colors, man would that be cool.

[Xusia]

This is tremendous news Dave, thank you for sharing. I think that what you should take away from the "ugly stick" thread is that there are a lot of people that are very happy about the design, the majority of those here love it, and most of us have a good understanding of what this whole thing is all about: your producing a project not a just car and any alternate preferences are perfectly within the builder's ability to incorporate. Like you said yourself, the modular panel design makes any customization much more accessible and cheaper. These kits are so much more than the basic specifications, let alone some of the amazing cars they produce.

More than anything, I hope you and the rest of the guys at FFR have a sense of the excitement we have for the 818 and appreciation we have for your hard work and frankly damn impressive engineering. Hell your winning over people on Nasioc, which is almost impossible.

+1! Well said, and compliments well deserved. If you are reading this Dave, I sincerely want to thank you. You have done what no one else has: Produced a car that meets my personal performance goals at a price I can actually afford. My hat's off to you!

[bnr32jason]

Can we interpret that to mean that all three of those gel-coat colors will likely be available at launch?? Or that you guys will pick one of them and go with it? Here's hoping it's the former............:)

Exciting!!!!

What would be really cool is if we could get some parts in one color and some parts in another. For example the frunk, hood, and windshield trim in white and the rest in red or blue. :)

[Silvertop]

^ i dont care what color it is....as long as its blue haha

Well, yeah, that's my first choice too.......:)


What would be really cool is if we could get some parts in one color and some parts in another. For example the frunk, hood, and windshield trim in white and the rest in red or blue. :)

Yes, that would be nice. I very much want to knock off the prototype 818R's paint scheme on my 818S. Though to do that right, I would probably order it in a single color, and then paint only those portions of the front hood and rear deck that are white on the original design. But if one doesn't mind whiting out entire panels, it would certainly be more cost effective than throwing paint........

[bnr32jason]

Much like the picture in your avatar :)

I would do essentially the same thing, but red instead of blue, and then white wheels.

[Martin]

Faster than a challenge car...

wow.

My wife agreed to get one after we finish the Roadster (another 18 months) as a way of building a car with my daughter when she gets her licence. I might need to reconsider that.

If it has a roof I'm in (daughter or not). Living in the UK is just not great for open topped cars.

Martin

[Xusia]

Martin, you could always use an standard Impreza with the normally aspirated 165 HP engine. I'm sure it would still be wicked fun, but not probably not challenge car level.

[Martin]

That's probably a better solution for us.


Martin, you could always use an standard Impreza with the normally aspirated 165 HP engine. I'm sure it would still be wicked fun, but not probably not challenge car level.


Anyone notice that Dave Smith has over 1000 posts? I'd love to know where he is posting, because I haven't seen them and I spend far too much time on the forum reading everything. I could speculate, but that doesn't get us anywhere.

I just can't wait for the cars to be released (it's only 6 weeks away - I didn't realise that until I paused to work it out). I'm definitely looking out for the first cars to be completed. A lot of the early builders are professionals (or might as well be) so we should see some great cars coming out.

Martin

[Silvertop]

Much like the picture in your avatar :)

I would do essentially the same thing, but red instead of blue, and then white wheels.

Precisely! And if it turns out that red is the only color available, I'd do the same paint scheme with a red base, though first choice is still blue. And yes, white wheels too. :)

[FFR-ADV]

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the update. Red White and Blue... So Patriotic!

(Blue is my personal favorite) Glad to hear that Vman has been able to develop a removable hardtop with Jim and the team. That is great news. Like many in this forum I am conflicted between an 818S and an 818R so I will build my 818S with as much of the 818R in it as I can get away with on the street (Suspension, KONI Shocks, Brake Pedals, Racing Seats, Wing, Splitter, Depowered Steering...) making it into an 818SR.

Thank you Jim and the rest of the 818 team. Have fun testing. Looking forward to hearing some more performance results

[bromikl]

...Factory Five Racing will (has) become one of the great iconic performance automobile companies in the world. Years from now I think they will write about what you and I are doing here...


When do we get a T-shirt?

Ya know, Christmas is right around the corner :o

[shinn497]

Siince it comes with the gelcoat, will it need to be painted?

[Dave Smith]

The gel coated panels will not need paint.

The soft top is going to be made by the boys at Rod Tops (they currently make the high-end tops for the 33 Hot Rod and Mk4 and they are expensive, but excellent at weather-sealing and really work alot better than the original style roadster tops). The soft top will work with the current body, but since we've made small changes to many of the panels we didnt want them fitting the top to anything up to now. The plan calls for the production car being built in May for the assembly manual to be used for the top fitment, which is why the top will likely be launched a month or two after the car is released.

I have had over 1000 posts, mostly when the forum started and not many in the last 6 months as we've been transitioning from community engagement on the 818 to final development and pre-production stuff.

I think sometimes I can take for granted that everyone knows, or at least understands the scale that we are working on when engineering and testing an alll-new design. Here's ONE small example. The shocks on the car are very similar to what we've run on roadsters and coupes and hot rods right? well, no. Just to get the right shock, rebound/dampening/pre-loads/etc we are doing a TON of work. It will be a solid week on the road, with a crew of four from FFR, three guys from KONI, two days on the rented track ($1,000 per car per day = $4,000 for just two days and thats just for the track, not the crew, trucks, food, support, drivers, etc)... That's just the shocks. Sure we are doing other things concurrently, but the scale of work is mind-numbing for a small company. This project has taken two years and a TON of resources.

We're doing our best and we're close to production. I'm most proud of the fact that we are staying very close to all of our design goals, our planned develpment and launch nodes, and that the car is so much better than we thought it would be.

[kach22i]

($1,000 per car per day = $4,000 for just two days and thats just for the track, not the crew, trucks, food, support, drivers, etc)... That's just the shocks.
It's reassuring to read funding is being spent on more than just pretty photo shoots and running design contests (yuk yuk).

If our acts define us, then your legacy will be this project 818, I'm still cheering you guys on, be it far off the side lines.

My hands are full keeping an old Porsche running, but I'll wave to any 818's should I see them on a winding road.

[nevinsb]

It looks fantastic, and I must say I am really excited about this car.

[bnr32jason]

Interesting. I see the Hot Rod Tops soft top is $3500 for the FF '33 Hot Rod so can we assume similar pricing for the 818?

I guess it might be worth it if it made the 818 truly daily driver capable.

[Silvertop]

Interesting. I see the Hot Rod Tops soft top is $3500 for the FF '33 Hot Rod so can we assume similar pricing for the 818?

I guess it might be worth it if it made the 818 truly daily driver capable.

I called Hot Rod Tops out of curiosity a couple of weeks back, hoping to learn a few tidbits about the soft top. Their lead guy confirmed that they really hadn't started the design work because they were still waiting on the final tweaked body design from FFR. They apparently need a body and chassis physically in their possession to do their work. He did say that he was under a certain amount of pressure to keep the costs down, though a high quality top was still desired. I'm not sure what that means, but my guess is that the top may wind up being slightly less expensive than the Roadster / 33 Hot Rod tops -- but probably not a LOT less expensive. There's probably really no way to know for sure right now, at least until after the top is designed.............

[bnr32jason]

But something else to consider, $3000 (est) for a soft top or replace the modular body sections to have a coupe and roadster option with an hour or so (guessing) of work?

It seems on many kit cars that the body panels are fairly easy to remove, and with the 818's modular design I think it may be viable to be able to switch between coupe and roadster versions. Or am I way off base?

[WIS89]

I don't know about y'all, but if you go back to the beginning of this project and think through how we got here, just a few months before full-scale launch, it's pretty mind blowing! Take Dave's example of the shocks. If you can extrapolate that one example and apply it to most of the other systems in the car (try and think through just how many systems require this level of attention), this is a herculean task, especially for a modest sized company. To say that Dave is "all-in" on this hand would be an understatement.

I am absolutely blown away by the work and dedication that is being demonstrated by the entire team at Factory Five. Try to bring this 818 project to an example of a project you may have been part of in your company or something in your past. Can you think of anything you have done that rivals the magnitude and attention to detail of this project? There are few examples that I can think of for the scale of this type of project, and most have been accomplished by very large companies with plenty of bodies and money to throw at the work. Now, think of the actual size of the team that Dave has in order to complete all of this work, and it is truly amazing. Dave clearly has a way of bringing out the best in his team, and he has done an awesome job of bringing in the right kind of people who share his passion and dedication.

I am not a kool-aid drinker here, and I don't just toss out compliments lightly. The fact is that this project is simply shocking to me in both scale and timeline. These cars are going to be extraordinary, and I envy the group that is going to get their cars first. I can't wait to see them come together, and being able to see the build logs and websites demonstrating the progress on these cars!

Way to stay focused Factory Five, and an early congratulations on closing in on one hell of a fine car. I suspect that this car will be a hit exceeding your wildest expectations. Your dedication is inspiring, and I hope you all are proud of what you have accomplished! You absolutely deserve our respect and thanks! Keep up the great work, and then toss the keys over to the builders to get these beauties on the road!!!

Awesome, just plain awesome!!! I am jealous and excited for the folks getting to build their 818s!

Regards,

Steve

[Silvertop]

But something else to consider, $3000 (est) for a soft top or replace the modular body sections to have a coupe and roadster option with an hour or so (guessing) of work?

It seems on many kit cars that the body panels are fairly easy to remove, and with the 818's modular design I think it may be viable to be able to switch between coupe and roadster versions. Or am I way off base?

There is no way to say for sure right now, but the concept you just visualized seems to me to be consistent with FFR's stated "swatch-watch" concept for this car. In any event, the V-Man Seven designed removable hardtop that Dave is talking about would certainly fill that niche. The big question would be whether or not it is stowable on board. It would need to be to serve as a viable option for use INSTEAD of the soft top. I'm guessing that it wouldn't be stowable. In which case to cover every circumstance, you would need the hardtop AND the soft top. We'll have to wait and see, I suppose.

[bnr32jason]

If there is a nice hard top option that might be feasible as well. I don't think it would be stowable either, but I think a rain jacket and some seat covers will be good enough for those emergency rain situations.

[Silvertop]

If there is a nice hard top option that might be feasible as well. I don't think it would be stowable either, but I think a rain jacket and some seat covers will be good enough for those emergency rain situations.

........... or maybe a zippered tonneau.

[BipDBo]

In the automotive industry, the big guys need about three years to go from concept to the showroom. It's probably at least another year to come up with the concept. That's with all of their resources and prior experience at disposal. That's also without attempting to re-invent how to manufacture body panels.

I'm excited to hear that so much time is being spent un suspension tuning. There has been a lot of talk about power, power to weight ratio and 0-60 times. I don't see this as a drag car. I most excited about the potential handling of the 818. The Subaru BRZ, for example, is not popular for its acceleration. Lightweight cars with low CG are quicker around curves and simply more fun. It would be a shame to have so much potential sqaundered on crappy, untuned suspension. Many 818 owners will want to make suspension tweeks, but that's probably over my head. I'm glad to hear that FFR is making so much effort to optimize it right out of the box.

[bnr32jason]

In the automotive industry, the big guys need about three years to go from concept to the showroom. It's probably at least another year to come up with the concept. That's with all of their resources and prior experience at disposal. That's also without attempting to re-invent how to manufacture body panels.

I'm excited to hear that so much time is being spent un suspension tuning. There has been a lot of talk about power, power to weight ratio and 0-60 times. I don't see this as a drag car. I most excited about the potential handling of the 818. The Subaru BRZ, for example, is not popular for its acceleration. Lightweight cars with low CG are quicker around curves and simply more fun. It would be a shame to have so much potential sqaundered on crappy, untuned suspension. Many 818 owners will want to make suspension tweeks, but that's probably over my head. I'm glad to hear that FFR is making so much effort to optimize it right out of the box.

When they said it pulled 1.5g on Hoosier R6's I got really excited and had no question that suspension tuning was high on their priority list. Given that lightweight cars typically see only a minor gain in overall lateral G's compared to heavier GT cars I would think that would mean we should see 1.2-1.3g on aggressive street tires like AD08's or RE-11's.

While I'm sure some people will want to tweak the suspension, I think for most of us the stock setup is going to be perfectly fine. The only thing I see myself really adjusting is ride height and that's just a personal-preference styling thing. I'll probably go just a little lower than the pictures they have been showing and then get an alignment. I think 1.2g's on a street car is amazing and more than we will need on the street. Now the track guys I'm sure will be doing quite a bit.

What I'm hoping is that they are using aluminum suspension components to keep unsprung weight down. As long as they end up being compatible with only minor modifications I'll be using aluminum LCA's and lightweight wheels for the best handling possible.

[Movieman]

The gel coated panels will not need paint.

The soft top is going to be made by the boys at Rod Tops (they currently make the high-end tops for the 33 Hot Rod and Mk4 and they are expensive, but excellent at weather-sealing and really work alot better than the original style roadster tops). The soft top will work with the current body, but since we've made small changes to many of the panels we didnt want them fitting the top to anything up to now. The plan calls for the production car being built in May for the assembly manual to be used for the top fitment, which is why the top will likely be launched a month or two after the car is released.

I have had over 1000 posts, mostly when the forum started and not many in the last 6 months as we've been transitioning from community engagement on the 818 to final development and pre-production stuff.

I think sometimes I can take for granted that everyone knows, or at least understands the scale that we are working on when engineering and testing an alll-new design. Here's ONE small example. The shocks on the car are very similar to what we've run on roadsters and coupes and hot rods right? well, no. Just to get the right shock, rebound/dampening/pre-loads/etc we are doing a TON of work. It will be a solid week on the road, with a crew of four from FFR, three guys from KONI, two days on the rented track ($1,000 per car per day = $4,000 for just two days and thats just for the track, not the crew, trucks, food, support, drivers, etc)... That's just the shocks. Sure we are doing other things concurrently, but the scale of work is mind-numbing for a small company. This project has taken two years and a TON of resources.

We're doing our best and we're close to production. I'm most proud of the fact that we are staying very close to all of our design goals, our planned develpment and launch nodes, and that the car is so much better than we thought it would be.

I think you need me to come down and drive for you just to give you data on what an" over 60 and hasn't been in a competive car in 30 years" can do in this!:D
Now think of the money you will save as I wouldn't charge you a dime! LOLOL

[BipDBo]

When they said it pulled 1.5g on Hoosier R6's I got really excited and had no question that suspension tuning was high on their priority list.

1.5g is impressive, but it's not really a good indicator of the overall handling. When you're going aound in a perfect circle at constant speed in a skid pad test, your suspension isn't doing much. You can get good results on a skid pad test with low weight and hot, wide, sticky, slick rubber. A little help from aerodynamics doesn't hurt.

Getting a car to perform when it's tossed back and forth is more difficult. That takes a well tuned suspension system. I'd like to hear how it performs against the supercars in a slolum test. I predict it will do quite well.

[AZPete]

Thanks, Dave, for getting me even more pumped!
Is it August yet? Oh no! I've got 108 days until my 818 will be (tentatively) shipped on 8/10.
Hopefully . . . RED.
Pete

[wleehendrick]

Hopefully . . . RED.

+1, White doesn't really do much for me. Blue would look great, but the wife just got a 'LeMans Blue' 135i and I want something different to share the garage!

[PhyrraM]

Ride height is an integral part of suspension tuning. Lowering the 818 will almost certainly not have the desired effect on a car with as much suspension tuning as the 818 is getting. Unless the only desired effect is looks.

What you will likely want to consider is to use the 818R coil-overs and alignment settings and try to deal with the much firmer ride. Of course this is assuming the 818R will actually sit lower.

[wleehendrick]

Of course this is assuming the 818R will actually sit lower

It was previously stated that the 818 will have two sets of suspension mounting points. the S version, and the R, ~1" lower. Therefore, there's no compromise in the geometry when lowered for track duty.

[PhyrraM]

Are we certain that the geometry stays the same? I can see more advantage in actual changes, especially considering the different goals and reduced compression travel of a lower ride height.

[longislandwrx]

Yes every suspension takeoff point has two mounts spaced 1" apart perpendicular to the ground. The geometry should stay the same aside from a slight change in steering geometry.

even the shocks have two points so travel should not change either granted you don't touch the threaded perches.

[Mechie3]

+1, White doesn't really do much for me. Blue would look great, but the wife just got a 'LeMans Blue' 135i and I want something different to share the garage!

I want blue for the exact opposite reason: My garage is blue, my WRX is blue, and the wifes mini cooper is blue. I need to keep up the blue theme! lol

[thestigwins]

ok everyone... what did the last update say? The folks that didn't preorder are getting jealous :)

[Movieman]

ok everyone... what did the last update say? The folks that didn't preorder are getting jealous :)

I didn't pay too much attention but it had something about some guy from Portland,OR getting a free one custom built with a special 500HP engine..:p

[bnr32jason]

ok everyone... what did the last update say? The folks that didn't preorder are getting jealous :)

-222 total pre-orders
-First kit to Grassroots Motorsports on June 15th
-More testing on the track in late April with a crew from KONI
-3rd Generation molds
-Chassis jig nearly complete
-818 will be at Carlisle in May
-Transitioning from development to production
-Un-named major magazine tested the 818, unknown publish date, sub 4.0 sec 0-60.

[skullandbones]

Dave,

I'm sure you're anxing over the upcoming release but with all the planning and expertise in the program, I'm sure it's going to launch well. Good luck anyway. Never hurts to be lucky and good!!! WEK.

[ehansen007]

"Red white and blue gel coat." It would seem only fitting to have these colors as representation of one the few great American car companies that are still out there. I hope to see a picture in a magazine someday with three of this newest model, one in each color with Dave in front and the entire crew in back. Having visited the factory it was easy to see what can happen when you build a great company with the labor and support of true Americans (in Boston no less where one would not think of building mostly roadsters!). For those who are first time buyers, you're not just buying a car, or even a project (as Dave puts it) and you'll soon realize that. Thanks for the updates Dave and best of luck on the launch.

[shinn497]

1.5g is impressive, but it's not really a good indicator of the overall handling. When you're going aound in a perfect circle at constant speed in a skid pad test, your suspension isn't doing much. You can get good results on a skid pad test with low weight and hot, wide, sticky, slick rubber. A little help from aerodynamics doesn't hurt.

Getting a car to perform when it's tossed back and forth is more difficult. That takes a well tuned suspension system. I'd like to hear how it performs against the supercars in a slolum test. I predict it will do quite well.

There is another post where dave mentioned the 818S did 1.25 on the skid and 1.05g on the track. I still think that 1.05 is incredible. That is comparable to a 458, a GT3, z06, or Nissan GT-R.

[BipDBo]

There is another post where dave mentioned the 818S did 1.25 on the skid and 1.05g on the track. I still think that 1.05 is incredible. That is comparable to a 458, a GT3, z06, or Nissan GT-R.

It was dumb of me to think that the claim of 1.5g was a skidpad number. It may have been a typo, meaning 1.05, but also could have been a peak track number. Peak track Gs tend to be high due to a sudden ferk like turn which will quickly roll the suspension to one side. The g force at the tires in this case is not the same as at the location of the g sensor. Peak track Gs don't really mean much.

Still, 1.05g is impressive, particularly for the street version. I wonder what kind of tires they had on it. Very few productions cars in this territory. The Lotus Elise gets around 1.0g. I'd bet that the 818R can do a bit better though, since it has it's wing, lighter weight, and racing slicks.

[bnr32jason]

It was dumb of me to think that the claim of 1.5g was a skidpad number. It may have been a typo, meaning 1.05, but also could have been a peak track number. Peak track Gs tend to be high due to a sudden ferk like turn which will quickly roll the suspension to one side. The g force at the tires in this case is not the same as at the location of the g sensor. Peak track Gs don't really mean much.

Still, 1.05g is impressive, particularly for the street version. I wonder what kind of tires they had on it. Very few productions cars in this territory. The Lotus Elise gets around 1.0g. I'd bet that the 818R can do a bit better though, since it has it's wing, lighter weight, and racing slicks.

1.5g was with the 818r on Hoosier slicks.

[Xusia]

As I understand it, they still aren't done tweaking the suspension. I think the final skid pad number for the 818S will be higher than 1.05. And more is always better, right?!! :)

[FFR-ADV]

VMan did a beautiful removable hard top design that I intend to look at with the team carefully once past product launch.

Hi Dave,

Jim and the team sure has done a wonderful job. Performance which matches it looks, and it looks HOT! Vman's design sure brings out the full "Hair On Fire" for me. My compliments to all involved! I can't wait to start my own build of a Blue 818SR this fall. A hardtop for it in the spring of 2014 sure would be nice.

Happy travels! Hurry back...

Cheers!

16958

[Dave Smith]

Guys,

I just got off the phone with Jim and the boys are on their way back from NCCAR track after two days of chassis tuning. The news is really really good and the guys are happy that beyond a small adjustment for toe-in, the chassis is ready for production and the street suspension and race suspension are both ready to go. Huge improvements after these last tests. I'll open the door for comments from drivers Wayne Presley and John George, who have been part of essentially four track days with both S and R models. They can give you guys a better analysis than I can since I was here in Wareham polishing an office chair during these tests.

Also, the cats a bit out of the bag as yes, Road and Track magazine tested the car last week at the Chrysler proving grounds as well as Gingerman Raceway in Michigan. They only tested the R model, and the on-line article is just out and is only a small teaser of the full veal, but I'm happy with the results... I liked these quotes:

"The 818’s driver sits very low to the ground, in a single-position, bolted-in Kirkey race seat, and enjoys sensations remarkably similar to those experienced by a Lotus 2-Eleven or Radical driver".

"The power from the turbocharged 2.5-liter boxer is strong, insistent, and predictable. It has enough pace to match modern Corvettes and Porsches in a straight line. Steering is direct and slop-free, directing the 818’s low-sniffing nose with inch-level precision without power assistance. The brakes, too, are entirely unboosted, requiring significant pressure but delivering trustworthy feedback up to the locking point."

"Factory Five’s newest offering is a credible and not-all-that-crude alternative to the Lotus Exige S or Porsche Boxster Spyder. After a dozen or so laps of Gingerman, hearing the frantic boxer blat behind me while fellow trackday drivers fell back on the straights and the corners as if their rear bumpers were connected by rubber bands to the 818’s square-tubed frame, I’m ready to believe."

Jack Baruth, Road and Track Magazine


Jack has raced Grand Am and is an accomplished roadracer. He didn't get a chance to drive the S model (only drove the R) and I'm frustrated that the magazine timetable and schedule forced the testing to be in FRIGID 30-45 degree weather and BEFORE we concluded the last two full days of track time with the crew from KONI as Jim and the boys are sooo much happier with the dial in now. In any event its fun to hear the car compared to our targets like the Lotus 211 and Exige S and Porsche Boxter Spyder.

I'm super proud and Jim says the best part of all was that the street tuning brought the S model really close to the R but was very comfortable on the same back roads of North Carolina along the varying surface byways used by the testing crew at McClaren with their new car. I think they got alot of video too... I am proud of the team and anxious for the world to see what we have crafted thru a combination of experience, great partners, customer feedback, serious investments and time and lastly, clear design goals that made sure our reach would exceed our grasp, only to find that our grasp was indeed much greater than we imagined!

[FFR-ADV]

Thanks for the update Dave. You must be bursting with pride in what Factory Five has accomplished with the 818! WELL DONE!!!

Looking forward to the details from the track testing.

Cheers!

[GUNS]

Awesome news, can't wait to get mine. Any chance of a black gel coat in the future?

[Mechie3]

Gingerman!? That's 3 hours away from me. I would have shown up in a heart beat!

[bbjones121]

I just read the Road and Track article. I still can not believe that the 818 received such great review before a finalized suspension tune!!!

[shinn497]

Yeah that article makes me REALLY wonder about the sanity of some of the people here wanting to put 400HP+ engines in it./

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oHqbuBSH6E

[bnr32jason]

I think 400hp (flywheel hp) is about as high as I would possibly want to go. In the MR configuration that should equate to about 330-340hp at the wheels depending how much drivetrain loss you calculate.

400hp in a 1800lb car would put it at 444bhp per ton. That's slightly more than a Ferrari F40, Carrera GT, Aventador, etc. All without any driver aids, power features, or anything.

These guys talking about 700hp builds, I don't really think they fully understand what they are getting into. The power will be virtually unusable, even in the hands of professional drivers. I guess if you are looking for a Texas Mile competitor or you want to put down a 60-130 time like supercar guys do, it might be worth it. I just can't even wrap my head around that much power in a car that light.

[longislandwrx]

Congrats on the high praise. I'm glad the article came with a dose of reality too... If you get the back end swinging, the computers won’t save you and your own hands might not be fast enough. This isn’t a car for novice drivers.

this coming from a professional racecar driver.




<-- starts practicing counter steering.

[RM1SepEx]

Who is to say how much is enough? For me 10 lbs per hp is enough... for some 400 may be the lower edge of the "envelope", to each their own.

I just know that hp does not always equate with better performance for us mere mortals! by reducing weight F5 has taken Colin Chapman's philosophy and we will get great adrenaline rush moments with stock level power.

the key is in control of the right foot. At "higher" HP levels interesting and dangerous situations will happen REAL FAST!

I feel that with my skills my 818S with 220-230 HP will be BEYOND my current driving skill level

and that is a good thing!

[Mechie3]

<-- starts practicing counter steering.

I see this happen a lot in my fmod when people first drive it. Guys that are good autocrossing a Suby more often than not end up either not driving anywhere near the limit or they spin once they get close. I'm going to be cautious with it attacking corners my first few times.

[JayStockE30]

The gel coated panels will not need paint.

The soft top is going to be made by the boys at Rod Tops (they currently make the high-end tops for the 33 Hot Rod and Mk4 and they are expensive, but excellent at weather-sealing and really work alot better than the original style roadster tops). The soft top will work with the current body, but since we've made small changes to many of the panels we didnt want them fitting the top to anything up to now. The plan calls for the production car being built in May for the assembly manual to be used for the top fitment, which is why the top will likely be launched a month or two after the car is released.

I have had over 1000 posts, mostly when the forum started and not many in the last 6 months as we've been transitioning from community engagement on the 818 to final development and pre-production stuff.

I think sometimes I can take for granted that everyone knows, or at least understands the scale that we are working on when engineering and testing an alll-new design. Here's ONE small example. The shocks on the car are very similar to what we've run on roadsters and coupes and hot rods right? well, no. Just to get the right shock, rebound/dampening/pre-loads/etc we are doing a TON of work. It will be a solid week on the road, with a crew of four from FFR, three guys from KONI, two days on the rented track ($1,000 per car per day = $4,000 for just two days and thats just for the track, not the crew, trucks, food, support, drivers, etc)... That's just the shocks. Sure we are doing other things concurrently, but the scale of work is mind-numbing for a small company. This project has taken two years and a TON of resources.

We're doing our best and we're close to production. I'm most proud of the fact that we are staying very close to all of our design goals, our planned develpment and launch nodes, and that the car is so much better than we thought it would be.

I must say congratulations again, the project is amazing and coming together well.

Thanks for fueling my passion for automobiles, and reigniting my interest in the 818. I love the passion that you and your team put into their work. I know that it is very exciting to see the results of the long hours and hard work. Keep it up.

[longislandwrx]

I'm going to be cautious with it attacking corners my first few times.

I too look forward to getting black flagged for driving too slow.

[CHOTIS BILL]

As far as the "Ugly-Stick" is concerned just remember what Ricky Nelson said “you can’t please everyone so you got to please yourself”.

Bill Lomenick

[Movieman]

As far as the "Ugly-Stick" is concerned just remember what Ricky Nelson said “you can’t please everyone so you got to please yourself”.

Bill Lomenick

Excellent! VERY well said!

[RM1SepEx]

I see this happen a lot in my fmod when people first drive it. Guys that are good autocrossing a Suby more often than not end up either not driving anywhere near the limit or they spin once they get close. I'm going to be cautious with it attacking corners my first few times.

I won a special award when driving my 87 Red Devil FMod years ago... a small blue WRX model... was raining and I went into a couple spins... awarded the little "trophy" as the driver that most needed the Subaru's AWD!

AWD and the various electronic controls hides many errors. That's why the best drivers hone their skills in shifter karts...

I can't wait. My plan for 2014 is to trailer my Rotax RM1 DD2 http://www.kart-rotax.com/HomeImpressum/PRODUCTSImpressum/MAXenginesImpressum/125MaxDD2.aspx
and my 818S to our autocross events Cant wait for Loring in August!

[nevinsb]

I think 400hp (flywheel hp) is about as high as I would possibly want to go. In the MR configuration that should equate to about 330-340hp at the wheels depending how much drivetrain loss you calculate.

400hp in a 1800lb car would put it at 444bhp per ton. That's slightly more than a Ferrari F40, Carrera GT, Aventador, etc. All without any driver aids, power features, or anything.

These guys talking about 700hp builds, I don't really think they fully understand what they are getting into. The power will be virtually unusable, even in the hands of professional drivers. I guess if you are looking for a Texas Mile competitor or you want to put down a 60-130 time like supercar guys do, it might be worth it. I just can't even wrap my head around that much power in a car that light.

No such thing as too much power, just not enough traction.

[bnr32jason]

No such thing as too much power, just not enough traction.

Completely disagree.

More power = more problems
More power = more difficult to drive anywhere near the limit
More power + more traction = more broken stuff

[Xusia]

As someone who has piloted vehicles with what most people would call insane amounts of power relative to weight, I absolutely and completely disagree with this:


No such thing as too much power, just not enough traction.

And agree 100% with this:



More power = more problems
More power = more difficult to drive anywhere near the limit
More power + more traction = more broken stuff

When talking about street going vehicles.

Track only vehicles are another thing. They have different considerations depending on the use. In competition, the quest for more power, less weight, etc., is often a necessary evil (if you want to win, that is).

[RM1SepEx]

This discussion will go nowhere good!

Everyone has different goals for the car, a different "vision"!

Mark Donahue once said that you had enough power when you could light up the tires at any time...

I want a fast street and autocross beastie... So my goal is a very modest 220-230 RWH

Someone else's "vision" may be similar to those who build 1000 HP GTMs They are not wrong, they have different goals. If 1/4 mile times are your goal, more is better until you can't get the power down. Those limits are very high with the right tires!

[Silvertop]

This discussion will go nowhere good!

Everyone has different goals for the car, a different "vision"!

Mark Donahue once said that you had enough power when you could light up the tires at any time...

I want a fast street and autocross beastie... So my goal is a very modest 220-230 RWH

Someone else's "vision" may be similar to those who build 1000 HP GTMs They are not wrong, they have different goals. If 1/4 mile times are your goal, more is better until you can't get the power down. Those limits are very high with the right tires!

You are, of course, 100% right. It's all about personal vision and goals for the car one wants to build. In that context, there are no wrong answers. There's absolutely nothing wrong with explaining one's particular set of goals. But there is also nothing particularly right about bashing somebody else's.

If someone wants to build an 800HP monster -- well, go for it. I have to assume that anyone capable of building a car like that understands the issues that will come with it. Not my cup of tea, but it's also None of My Business. If someone wants to build a box-stock 165HP NA version, well, that works too. Your project. Build it your way.

[Wayne Presley]

I spent quite a few laps in both cars, the 818R drives well enough that I could put a good driver in it and having him running the car to 95% of its potential in 20 laps. After the final tweak we did on the R, John went out, then I went out. I came back in and he came up to the car and we both agreed that the car needed no changes. The car was fast AND easy to drive fast. The rest of the day the blue car just made laps just for durability sake. I truly would jump into the 818R and race it today. And the power comes on NOW, has virtually no lag.

[Wayne Presley]

1.5g is impressive, but it's not really a good indicator of the overall handling. When you're going aound in a perfect circle at constant speed in a skid pad test, your suspension isn't doing much. You can get good results on a skid pad test with low weight and hot, wide, sticky, slick rubber. A little help from aerodynamics doesn't hurt.

Getting a car to perform when it's tossed back and forth is more difficult. That takes a well tuned suspension system. I'd like to hear how it performs against the supercars in a slolum test. I predict it will do quite well.

We didn't run the car on a skid pad, that was peak load in a 72 mph nearly 300 degree corner.

[skullandbones]

Good to hear about the great reviews even before the final tuning. I was a a track day event Thursday at Firebird. It was "eyeopening" for me. I was a spectator but two friends
with roadsters with hp were on the track (302 with 350hp+ and 427 dual quads ?hp). The roadsters sounded great. Only a beast of a car, a Pantera, sounded way better.
The roadsters seemed to me to be a little out of their element compared to the Porches (911, 944), Panteras, Viper, Cobra Mustangs, Corvettes, even a mean Miata, and believe it
or not a Bugati (looked brand new). Aren't they about 1.2 million. Ironically, he was the only one to spin out and hit a pile of tires leaving a black road rash on the left side. Sorry
no pics as he exited quickly from the scene. BTW, my friends were B and C class so one of them didn't get an opportunity to really let it loose. But the B class driver was able to
get 105+ on the straight after some practice laps (MesaMike).

The point is: my mind kept being pulled back to thinking about how a mildly built 818 would perform during this event (it was not a wheel to wheel race). I think it would have done
extremely well. I took a ride in one of the roadsters for a couple of laps and based on the videos of the testing, the 818 would have felt very good on that completely flat course.
Can't wait to see the real thing in action on a track! WEK.

[bnr32jason]

Funny that you mention the Bugatti, I was looking at this story just yesterday: http://www.gtspirit.com/2013/04/26/car-crash-bugatti-veyron-fender-bender-on-the-race-track/

Same car I'm guessing. :)

I'm just glad to see that a Veyron owner actually brought their car to the track.

[skullandbones]

That's the one. We spoke with the driver before this happened while taking a break under the tent (pretty warm and sunny day in AZ). He seemed to be a nice sort of guy. He mentioned something that didn't really register with me until after the accident. He said something to the effect the the traction control had been reduced. I don't think you can disengage it completely. When I saw the Top Gear program (UK version), the test car had the traction control on full, I think. I forgot to say that the officials were clocking the Bugati at 160 mph on the same straight as my friend's roadster. So it will go very fast and slow down very fast as well. There was a hairpin turn at the end of the straight.

I still think the 818 will stand out in the crowd for the most part. I'm thinking the 818s would have stayed close to some of the Panterras (giving some up in the straight and making up some time in the twisties. JIMO. WEK.

[shinn497]

Can you comment more on how the 818S handled?

I'm more in the camp of the 818 as a street car, but I would like to add aero improvements later. I hope that is possible.

[bbjones121]

Completely disagree.

More power = more problems
More power = more difficult to drive anywhere near the limit
More power + more traction = more broken stuff

Everyone who thinks too much power is no point on a car this basic and light, please google a Hennesey Venom GT and stop saying too much power would be worthless.

[bnr32jason]

Where did I say the word worthless?

The Hennesey Venom GT was built for top speed runs. Not something you really want to do in a roadster like the 818.

[Evan78]

Really? I didn't know it was a one-trick pony. I figured that it can turn and brake pretty well too, but I've been wrong before. You could insert Formula 1 car in that sentence if you prefer.

[bnr32jason]

Really? I didn't know it was a one-trick pony. I figured that it can turn and brake pretty well too, but I've been wrong before. You could insert Formula 1 car in that sentence if you prefer.

The car will still turn and brake very well, it's just all that extra power is going to push the skill requirement for 9/10th's or 10/10th's driving at the track out way beyond the skillset of even experienced trackday enthusiasts.

There are several reasons why F1 cars of today are much faster than the years where engines were making 1200-1450hp in qualifying trim (turbo F1's in the 80's). Even most F1 drivers then couldn't handle all that power, one reason why Senna still lives on as a legend.

[Evan78]

Cars with crazy power to weight ratios still have to live with the same limitations when it comes to braking and turning. You can't corner any faster in a 1000 hp car than a 300 hp one, you just have to get on the brakes earlier with 1000hp. Just because a car has crazy power doesn't mean you have to push the pedal all the way down.

[Wayne Presley]

Everyone who thinks too much power is no point on a car this basic and light, please google a Hennesey Venom GT and stop saying too much power would be worthless.
YouTube videos aren't the same as actually driving one or living with one. I own and drive a 2500lb FFR roadster quite often that makes approximately 830 FWHP which gives it a power to weight of 3.01 lbs per hp. A 2013 ZR-1 corvette makes 638 HP/3333 lbs for 5.22 lbs per hp. A ford GT is 550 hp / 3351 lbs for 6.09 lbs/hp. A 1000 HP ford GT would be 3.35 lbs/hp, there are plenty of videos of them on the web. Mostly they are lighting up the tires at 80+ mph. My car has 315/35-17 Nitto NT05R drag radials on the back and it has never been to redline in third gear at full throttle because it blows off the tires at 90 mph and hits the rev limiter a nanosecond later. Driving it is like walking through a room full of rattlesnakes, one misstep and it will bite you. I drove the 818R out of the slow corner in third gear (on Hoosier R6's) and had to modulate the power application to control wheel spin with a stock WRX engine with 4 ish more psi of boost. 400 HP in the car will have a hard time hooking any sort of street tire at speeds less than 60 mph.

[bnr32jason]

Cars with crazy power to weight ratios still have to live with the same limitations when it comes to braking and turning. You can't corner any faster in a 1000 hp car than a 300 hp one, you just have to get on the brakes earlier with 1000hp. Just because a car has crazy power doesn't mean you have to push the pedal all the way down.

Ok, don't take this as condescending, I'm genuinely curious....have you driven much at the track?

There is a huge difference between driving a 300hp at the track and a 1000hp car at the track. As a kid, I started racing karts, and then I moved up to Formula Ford, and then ended my amateur career in a Formula Continental. There is absolutely no way I would have been able to handle jumping into the Formula Continental straight from the start and just taking it easy on the gas through the corners. There is so much more to it than that, it's not just braking earlier.

If you don't believe my experience on the track in my younger days, or Wayne's current experience on the track, just think about it like this....

You've only got so much pedal travel and so many RPM's to work with. In a relatively low powered car, the power is going to come on much more gradually and smoothly. So we are going from 0hp-300hp in about 8000rpm. Now with the same amount of pedal travel we are now going from 0hp-700hp in 8000rpm. Also typically on a small engine like a 2.5L turbo, the turbo needed to make 700hp is NOT going to have a friendly powerband. You are going from about 100hp at 2500rpm to 600hp at 5500rpm, think about the corner exit when you have to get back onto the gas, that is not going to be easy to control. You are going to have to baby it the whole way through while guys in lower power cars are going to be getting back on the power much earlier. You might catch them again in the straights or they might leave you so far behind in the corners that you won't have a chance.

[metalmaker12]

+1 Wayne It is true that too much power will be worthless. My friend has a miata with a built and supercahrged LS1 make 743whp, it is a nightmare to drive, and will get killed at a track by a 250whp miata. Even at the drag strip it is so hard to not flip over or shoot into a wall, that I deem it cool, but way to much power. 300-400whp in the 818 will be the sweet spot for the car period. Yes it is cool to build it to the nines with power, but it has to handle all that power or it is wasted time and money because you simply can not drive it. MattySti is building a crazy 818, but it sounds like the whole car is getting a build up, and it will cost like 80k or more. It still might be way to much power no matter what he does to the rest of it, we will have to see.

[shinn497]

I say ej207, tune, e85 and your done.

[Matty_STi]

I think I am the only one here talking about a 700hp build with any real certainty. I have lived with a 1000hp supra, 900hp caged stripped rx-7 that was track focused (not drag strip), 500hp civic, ~850hp 911 and plenty of other cars that have a focus on not just huge hp figures but lightweight track only freak cars (think time attack and you've got a good idea). I also have considerable experience with aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, pressure systems and complicated electronic and computational systems. So the 818 will be a test bed to see how far I can push the knowledge I have. Maybe it morphs into a pikes peak style racer who knows. But I do understand huge hp, low weight, high grip, big downforce cars better than most. My build will have aero numbers that you would see in time attack and unlimited class pikes peak cars. I also am going to be using (and in some cases designing) electronic systems to handle the hp and aero of my setup. If you haven't built or driven a car like this then yes they can be seen as unusable, having built and driven a few when done properly can easily put that power down. But then again I know what I am doing and not just throwing numbers around with no sense of what they mean. ;)

*back to the regularly scheduled programming*


I think 400hp (flywheel hp) is about as high as I would possibly want to go. In the MR configuration that should equate to about 330-340hp at the wheels depending how much drivetrain loss you calculate.

400hp in a 1800lb car would put it at 444bhp per ton. That's slightly more than a Ferrari F40, Carrera GT, Aventador, etc. All without any driver aids, power features, or anything.

These guys talking about 700hp builds, I don't really think they fully understand what they are getting into. The power will be virtually unusable, even in the hands of professional drivers. I guess if you are looking for a Texas Mile competitor or you want to put down a 60-130 time like supercar guys do, it might be worth it. I just can't even wrap my head around that much power in a car that light.

[Matty_STi]

Unless of course you have 1000+lbs of down force, traction and stability control, per gear boost control, and loads of other stuff.

*EDIT*

If peak HP/Torque figures are all this discussion is based upon then yes, 700hp, 820Kg's = big stupid mess.

It's what you do with that power that makes the big difference. If I just slap a built NA LS7 with carbs into an 818 and a strip style auto tranny, yeah big goofy stupid burnouts and may as well just cancel my track day bookings as it will be nearly impossible to get that power to the ground without lighting the tires up constantly. My vision, which is heavily emphasized with trying stuff to see if they work and how high I can turn the wick, is very very different then just single big hp numbers in light car.

I am going for a 10k plus rpm, high ve, quick spooling engine with a massive focus on boost control. With a rocket style antilag (my home brew testing of that and variable vane have pushed me to RSAL) I can set my turbine rpm at whatever I want and control that speed through wastegate and RSAL output. I can also control boost further with much more advanced bpv control schemes than you find in the average "tuner" car. This combined with per gear boost control, tcs built into the ecu I am using (syvecs) and I can set any torque value I want at whatever RPM I want. 45PSI of boost at 3000rpm? Sure if that's what I want. With the near instantaneous control of boost and the engine design parameters I have that allow for very rapid changes in piston speed without damage to crank, rods, valves, valve guides, or cams and I can have levels of control over what the tires do that most motorsports programs dream about (not because I am special and doing stuff they can't but because the technology is banned). Toss in the fact that I can engineer my own aero setup due to computational resources that I have access to that most don't plus my own engineering know how and my recipe for 700hp is a whole hell of a lot different than what anyone else is going to be able to build. And like what has been said earlier I am probably in for at least 80k if not more. If I was farming out the composite work, engineering work, testing, fabing, tunning, etc. Build costs would likely be approaching 200-250k. The 818 is a great baseline to start with, and it saves me having to do a whole whack of engineering and design which I have little time or desire to do. And like dave has mentioned there is a considerable amount of work involved in this product. Could I build something that fits my needs better, sure, but the time involved would go up about 3-3.5 times. I have looked high and low for a good starting point, and thought about an elise/exige/211 like frank profera, but I have been big into subies the last couple years and heard about the 818 and saw that as a perfect chances to take my current interests of subies with my desire to make a stupid completely insane car. Yes I am crazy, but I daily drove a track prepped jdm integra type r for a 2 year stint while in univ (including -40C canadian winters). :P

So the short of it is: it's not the peak power number but what that power looks like and how it's being put down. You guys seem to be arguing a single number for a dynamic system, this isn't tenable and the argument falls on it's face when that number is itself placed into it's own dynamic system. Plus arguing HP when torque is a more meaningful value for this type of discussion is the best approach to this conversation, that and boost numbers versus rpm/time/gear. We are talking about a dynamic system, gotta make sure the numbers we use are referenced against said system and thus dynamic in their nature.

-Matt


Ok, don't take this as condescending, I'm genuinely curious....have you driven much at the track?

There is a huge difference between driving a 300hp at the track and a 1000hp car at the track. As a kid, I started racing karts, and then I moved up to Formula Ford, and then ended my amateur career in a Formula Continental. There is absolutely no way I would have been able to handle jumping into the Formula Continental straight from the start and just taking it easy on the gas through the corners. There is so much more to it than that, it's not just braking earlier.

If you don't believe my experience on the track in my younger days, or Wayne's current experience on the track, just think about it like this....

You've only got so much pedal travel and so many RPM's to work with. In a relatively low powered car, the power is going to come on much more gradually and smoothly. So we are going from 0hp-300hp in about 8000rpm. Now with the same amount of pedal travel we are now going from 0hp-700hp in 8000rpm. Also typically on a small engine like a 2.5L turbo, the turbo needed to make 700hp is NOT going to have a friendly powerband. You are going from about 100hp at 2500rpm to 600hp at 5500rpm, think about the corner exit when you have to get back onto the gas, that is not going to be easy to control. You are going to have to baby it the whole way through while guys in lower power cars are going to be getting back on the power much earlier. You might catch them again in the straights or they might leave you so far behind in the corners that you won't have a chance.

[bnr32jason]

Unless of course you have 1000+lbs of down force, traction and stability control, per gear boost control, and loads of other stuff.

True, but then you are approaching a territory that most 818 owners won't venture into simply because they don't have the knowledge and/or the money to do it.

It's great that you've built and driven these high power cars and that they worked for you. That's why I never said the power will be useless, I simply said many people don't know what they are getting into. It's clear that you do, but I'm sure you won't be the only one building a 500hp+ 818.

I was simply illustrating the fact that it's not as simple as "taking it easy on the gas in the corners" to drive a high powered 818 at it's limit. Wayne, who has personal experience with it, says even their mildly modded test 818 has trouble maintaining corner exit traction on slicks without careful throttle modulation. Double the horsepower without addressing everything else and they'll be in trouble.

[Matty_STi]

I say ej207, tune, e85 and your done.

Which creates a peaky and boost happy torque curve which is not what you want.

ej257 with davcs on pump is a better combination due to a much smoother torque curve with lots of area under said curve. Also can more easily tune down boost and torque spikes giving you a much better setup. 207 is great if you are bench racing, running a mile, or high speed tracks. auto x, street, shorter/slower/tighter road courses are better served by a 257. annnnnd if you are planning on running a mile, bench racing or running at a lemans style big open fast track a 257 is better anyways. ;)

[shinn497]

do you have dynos? I want th ej207 due to the twin scroll turbo and high revving avcs. You know I've always thought that the ej257 never had VVT, but I guess I was wrong. ><

[Wayne Presley]

Can you comment more on how the 818S handled?

I'm more in the camp of the 818 as a street car, but I would like to add aero improvements later. I hope that is possible.

The S handled very well and we spent the bulk of our time changing spings from too soft to too stiff, alignment settings, shock dampening tofind out what the car liked and how the changes affected the balance and ride quality.. We had tried out everything suspension wise and had daylight left so we tried a crude lip spoiler made out of a challenge car air dam that Jim had brought for Joe Camire just to see what difference it would make on the car

[Evan78]

Ok, don't take this as condescending, I'm genuinely curious....have you driven much at the track?

There is a huge difference between driving a 300hp at the track and a 1000hp car at the track. As a kid, I started racing karts, and then I moved up to Formula Ford, and then ended my amateur career in a Formula Continental. There is absolutely no way I would have been able to handle jumping into the Formula Continental straight from the start and just taking it easy on the gas through the corners. There is so much more to it than that, it's not just braking earlier.

If you don't believe my experience on the track in my younger days, or Wayne's current experience on the track, just think about it like this....

You've only got so much pedal travel and so many RPM's to work with. In a relatively low powered car, the power is going to come on much more gradually and smoothly. So we are going from 0hp-300hp in about 8000rpm. Now with the same amount of pedal travel we are now going from 0hp-700hp in 8000rpm. Also typically on a small engine like a 2.5L turbo, the turbo needed to make 700hp is NOT going to have a friendly powerband. You are going from about 100hp at 2500rpm to 600hp at 5500rpm, think about the corner exit when you have to get back onto the gas, that is not going to be easy to control. You are going to have to baby it the whole way through while guys in lower power cars are going to be getting back on the power much earlier. You might catch them again in the straights or they might leave you so far behind in the corners that you won't have a chance.Not much, about 10 track days in my life spread over 2002-2009. All were done in a mild WRX (stock turbo) except for one day in an Ariel Atom. I have driven fast cars on the street that have at least one issue (mechanical, tune, etc) that were not fun to drive and impossible to approach the limit due to their unpredictable nature, so I do understand where you're coming from. I frankly have already lost interest in this conversation because I don't have any extreme plans for my 818 and don't really care to argue with you about anyone that does. I agree that pedal travel is mostly fixed and therefore, you lose resolution as you increase power and precise throttle application becomes a bigger challenge. On the other hand, I prefer a care where I am required to modulate the throttle. If you've ever driven a car weak enough to allow full throttle virtually everywhere, you know what I mean.

A car is a system, and there's little point in building one portion of that system (i.e. engine) with limits that far exceed all the other components (tires, brakes, suspension, trans, etc). I only responded to you because you asserted that the Venom GT was built for top speed runs, as if it was purpose built for Bonneville, Texas Mile, etc. Nearly all cars are a series of compromises because the designers are trying to satisfy many goals that often conflict with each other, and the Venom looks like every other car in this regard.

[bnr32jason]

A car is a system, and there's little point in building one portion of that system (i.e. engine) with limits that far exceed all the other components (tires, brakes, suspension, trans, etc).

I didn't really consider what we were doing as arguing, just a simple discussion that we took different sides on.

Your quote here is exactly what I am talking about and why I engaged in the conversation. What you said there, building one portion of the system is what the VAST majority of amateur tuners (like myself) do because either they can't afford to address the other areas or frankly don't care. Look at all the dyno queens and big horsepower builds out there. Short of "time attack" style builds which normally reach 6 figures in cost, most people just slap a set of off-the-shelf coilovers and some sway bars and think their suspension is "race." They buy a K-Sport big brake kit and think they are good to go. I think you understand where I'm going with this.

Occasionally we get the people like Matty_STI who do understand what it takes to build a high horsepower car. Just read his post above, his high HP 818 build will be approaching six figures with him doing a large portion of the engineering and R&D side of it which is normally way more expensive than the parts. Most people won't go this route and they will either end up sorely disappointed or doing just what I said and turning the 818 into a straight line monster. If that's what they want, great, go for it. But many people really do believe that they can take a high horsepower car to the track and just take it easy on the throttle and they'll be fine. This is partially true, they will probably be just fine, but they'll also be getting passed by lower power cars everywhere but the straights.

In the end, to each is own, just personally I find it a little odd to take a car that has been so carefully engineered for great handling and then "ruining" it (my opinion) by turning it into a dyno queen or straight line car.

[Evan78]

You're right, argument wasn't the right word. I don't think many people will build high power cars, but those that do provide info for the rest of us. Even if their build is a mistake in your eyes, at least there is more data. I see no problem with "ruining" an 818 by sacrificing some of the strengths that you value to achieve some other goals. You may see it as a lightweight, great handling car while someone else may just see it as an inexpensive platform for some other purpose.

Matty's build should be very interesting. Others that should be interesting will be Phil Grabrow's build (PhilElement here) and Jeff Sponaugle (sponaugle).

Matty_STi - as a Nasioc member since 2001 (me), is there any Subaru's you've owned in the past that I might be familiar with? I'm assuming you've already done some cool stuff in the Subaru world, but your name alone is not ringing any bells with me.

[Ironhydroxide]

Personally I'm going to be watching for posts by Matt. Logic seems to reign supreme with him. and proving numbers with data and fact.

i REALLY like the idea of a 257 with DAVCS and your (matt's) turbo setup. with the throttle by wire, and some wheel speed sensors (abs tone rings/hall sensors) you can have a great traction control set in motion.
Props, and keep the info coming. because i for one, want to copycat you (no offense ;) )

[Matty_STi]

do you have dynos? I want th ej207 due to the twin scroll turbo and high revving avcs. You know I've always thought that the ej257 never had VVT, but I guess I was wrong. ><

For this sort of stuff my suggestion is check out the proven power numbers sub forum on nasioc and the built motor sub forum on nasioc. The amount of data about this sort of thing is all over the place there.

And yes the ej257's do come with avcs, both the older single avcs and newer dual avcs. EJ series engines are actually really modular (thus all the hybrid builds). You'll get guys doing all sorts of weird head swaps to get the compression ratios combustion chamber sizes/shapes, flow rates and avcs (either single, dual or to get rid of it).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine
http://bbs.scoobynet.com/general-technical-10/869584-what-year-type-of-impreza-has-avcs-heads.html
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=144
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=79

[Matty_STi]

You're right, argument wasn't the right word. I don't think many people will build high power cars, but those that do provide info for the rest of us. Even if their build is a mistake in your eyes, at least there is more data. I see no problem with "ruining" an 818 by sacrificing some of the strengths that you value to achieve some other goals. You may see it as a lightweight, great handling car while someone else may just see it as an inexpensive platform for some other purpose.

Matty's build should be very interesting. Others that should be interesting will be Phil Grabrow's build (PhilElement here) and Jeff Sponaugle (sponaugle).

Matty_STi - as a Nasioc member since 2001 (me), is there any Subaru's you've owned in the past that I might be familiar with? I'm assuming you've already done some cool stuff in the Subaru world, but your name alone is not ringing any bells with me.

Sadly no, I have been into subaru's for about 15 years, but never delved into doing anything with them, I wrench my own cars but I just couldn't afford to do anything with them. They ended up being my cheap beater econo boxes, had a couple legacy's and an old beater 'prez I learned to rally in, but I was more interested in other stuff. Plus the subaru performance world was just a little too hard to get into from my vantage, getting stuff from japan, dealing with guys who didn't know how to tune the boxers, etc. It was a big mess when I got my first one. Hell I had more luck tuning, upgrading and toying with my focus then any of my subarus. Just looking back at my old SCC mags and what was subaru related is almost non-existent. I always wanted a rally rocket but every time I looked I just saw a lot of crap that left a bad taste in my mouth (loved the cars but wanted to do something with them) so I stuck with hondas, toyotas, and nissans. When I got money it was over to the euro "exotics" saab, audi, porsche (all of which I discovered were too expensive to do anything with unless I started fabing my own stuff, the parts from the amazing euro tuning houses were just mind warpingly expensive). I missed having a subie though so last year (almost a year to the day actually) I walked into a subaru stealership (HA) and walked out with a lovely new dgm sti. Had been thinking about an evo versus wrx/sti for about 2 years before that and I was following the stuff on evom and nasioc and the rest is history.


Personally I'm going to be watching for posts by Matt. Logic seems to reign supreme with him. and proving numbers with data and fact.

i REALLY like the idea of a 257 with DAVCS and your (matt's) turbo setup. with the throttle by wire, and some wheel speed sensors (abs tone rings/hall sensors) you can have a great traction control set in motion.
Props, and keep the info coming. because i for one, want to copycat you (no offense ;) )

LOL, thanks, I try to be logical, but I am a bit too passionate for that and get myself into the proverbial hot water on occasion. :S

I would give one piece of advice, RASL is not for the faint of heart, if you can't tune it yourself with the proper ecu (syvecs, pectel, motec) you are in for huuuuuuuge pains with your tuner and massive costs for dyno time/tuner time. Plus everything needs to be inconel 617 at minimum 625 or 718 optimum, or some other super alloy. And then you have to figure out how to join the parts i.e. wield them. This is the only thing other than motor and trans build that I will farm out. And thank god I live in a region of the world with the highest concentration of shops and wielders with certs for super alloys, as I bet the cost involved with getting someone to wield up and purchase inconel with this sort of complexity insane. That or just buy one from wrc spares. ;) http://www.subaruwrcspares.com/11.html

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" :P :D

[shinn497]

Oh I always check the proven power forums.

Any suggestion for a quick spooling, high revving, ej257 that is not peaky? I'm going to look myself as well.

[Matty_STi]

Oh I always check the proven power forums.

Any suggestion for a quick spooling, high revving, ej257 that is not peaky? I'm going to look myself as well.

sort of of topic at this point. but I would say don't worry about high revving as the things that allow you to do that tend to make the engine peaky. Smaller turbo, twin scroll, don't go with too big of a cam profile. use a manifold that has good flow numbers, good port job on the heads. Higher compression ratio. I would say a stroker build would be up your alley if you want bigger numbers with better broader torque figures. For a turbo get a smaller gtx seriers like a 30r or a bw efr (nothing bigger than the 7064). Anti lag is good but traditional pop/bang can eat turbos. E85 is great but lacks power density and thus more of it needs to be dumped into the fuel system which means bigger gas tank, bigger injectors, bigger pump, bigger lines, bigger fpr. bigger heavier and more expensive stuff (also eth is a solvent and tends to eat fuel systems that aren't setup for them older rex's werent so you would need to redo the entire fuel system to handle that.). You essentially have 3 things that don't fit. small 4 cylinders don't spool quickly without expensive turbos or complex antilag or compound charging, ej257's aren't by their nature high revving. If you want a high revving '257 it's going to be peaky without lots of work like I have planned. What sort of car you want will determine your engine. If you decide on the engine build first and then try to cram it into any old chassis you will have problems. Gotta tailor the motor to the car and it's design and performance goals or you end up with a project like mine which really is an experiment and money pit and possibly (with a large chance of) total abject failure. (or like the aforementioned ls powered miata). If what is being said about the car is true with regards to stock power output levels being hard to handle then I suspect people should worry more about building the car getting a fell for it at the track/auto x and then worry about turning the wick up. Will save a hell of a lot of money if at stock or slightly boosted power levels are enough to blow your face off. Besides a built motor swap can happen anytime.

As an aside, I am waiting on numbers and peoples builds to happen and more data before I decide to go through with my project. I have no qualms about it dying on the page if it looks completely impractical despite my best efforts. I will continue to do the engineering due diligence and all the work that's needed before hand and a raised HP 818 will be built by me, but it may look very very different than the car I have discussed thus far. If that so happens well I will admit I was in over my head and that everyone was right that a big hp 818 was a stupid idea. LOL!

-Matt

[Movieman]

Reading thru this and reminds me of a day back in 1972 when through a weird stretch of circumstances I got to do a burnout in a AA/FC
2000+HP in a 1850lb "car"
Yes folks, there is such a thing as just too much darned horsepower and too much can take a vechicle from something you love to drive to something that can kill you with one miss step.
I am sure there are many very talented drivers here but look at the basics of this car.
It's a short wheelbase two wheel drive vechicle.
Now I love power as much as anyone and the thrill of being flat out in something that does set your hair on fire but I think that once you go much over 300-325HP in this car you'll have wasted money.
Put that extra money into reliability and just plain enjoy the thing for what it is instead oif trying to make it into something it isn't.
Wayne's comments bear reading again. Do you want something that if you make the mistake of putting your foot down at the wrong time can exceeed it's design limits?
Now excuse me while this old fool puts on some coffee and then my flame suit. :D

[bromikl]

Too much power?

Not anymore.

17185


You're welcome. ;)

[bbjones121]

Too much power?

Not anymore.

17185


You're welcome. ;)

How do we fit those tires on the 818?

[Movieman]

How do we fit those tires on the 818?

carefully! LOLOL

[bbjones121]

YouTube videos aren't the same as actually driving one or living with one. I own and drive a 2500lb FFR roadster quite often that makes approximately 830 FWHP which gives it a power to weight of 3.01 lbs per hp. A 2013 ZR-1 corvette makes 638 HP/3333 lbs for 5.22 lbs per hp. A ford GT is 550 hp / 3351 lbs for 6.09 lbs/hp. A 1000 HP ford GT would be 3.35 lbs/hp, there are plenty of videos of them on the web. Mostly they are lighting up the tires at 80+ mph. My car has 315/35-17 Nitto NT05R drag radials on the back and it has never been to redline in third gear at full throttle because it blows off the tires at 90 mph and hits the rev limiter a nanosecond later. Driving it is like walking through a room full of rattlesnakes, one misstep and it will bite you. I drove the 818R out of the slow corner in third gear (on Hoosier R6's) and had to modulate the power application to control wheel spin with a stock WRX engine with 4 ish more psi of boost. 400 HP in the car will have a hard time hooking any sort of street tire at speeds less than 60 mph.

I honestly don't know what that much power is like. It actually scares me. I am hoping that a third party traction control unit can be installed. The Venom GT and your car are great examples of how you can make lots of power in a light car work. I doubt Hennessey would have done what they did if it were undriveable.

...4 extra lbs of boost in the 818r? That is definitely not stock power.

[Wayne Presley]

I honestly don't know what that much power is like. It actually scares me. I am hoping that a third party traction control unit can be installed. The Venom GT and your car are great examples of how you can make lots of power in a light car work. I doubt Hennessey would have done what they did if it were undriveable.

...4 extra lbs of boost in the 818r? That is definitely not stock power.

Stock WRX is 230 FWHP for the 2006 model. That's only 14% more hp at most so like going from 200 RWHP to 228 RWHP. Not exactly a huge improvement over stock.

[Nuul]

...4 extra lbs of boost in the 818r? That is definitely not stock power.

You can get that from an OTS map on a Cobb Accessport.

[bnr32jason]

I'm not a Subaru guy, but from my DSM days, a mildly modded 2.0 on a smallish stock turbo will yield 7-10hp per extra lb of boost. So that extra 4lbs probably got him an additional 25whp or so.

[bbjones121]

I guess that is right. Rule of thumb 10hp per lb of boost on wrx. So the 818r was closer to 270 and given that all restrictive emissions systems were removed, probably 10-20hp above that.

[Evan78]

do you have dynos? I want th ej207 due to the twin scroll turbo and high revving avcs. You know I've always thought that the ej257 never had VVT, but I guess I was wrong. ><In case you're not aware, you can put OEM twin scroll (vf36/vf37) manifold and turbo on a 2.5L engine as well. Same goes for aftermarket stuff.

[longislandwrx]

As an aside, I am waiting on numbers and peoples builds to happen and more data before I decide to go through with my project. I have no qualms about it dying on the page if it looks completely impractical despite my best efforts. I will continue to do the engineering due diligence and all the work that's needed before hand and a raised HP 818 will be built by me, but it may look very very different than the car I have discussed thus far. If that so happens well I will admit I was in over my head and that everyone was right that a big hp 818 was a stupid idea. LOL!
-Matt

:( I was hoping you were going to make a believer out of everyone. Also how is your STi coming along?


Just looking back at my old SCC mags and what was subaru related is almost non-existent.

You have to look again. I have them all too and there were quite a few Subaru builds. They built a turbo car before the WRX debuted. Then project wrx, then project sti, then another.

[Matty_STi]

Reading thru this and reminds me of a day back in 1972 when through a weird stretch of circumstances I got to do a burnout in a AA/FC
2000+HP in a 1850lb "car"
Yes folks, there is such a thing as just too much darned horsepower and too much can take a vechicle from something you love to drive to something that can kill you with one miss step.
I am sure there are many very talented drivers here but look at the basics of this car.
It's a short wheelbase two wheel drive vechicle.
Now I love power as much as anyone and the thrill of being flat out in something that does set your hair on fire but I think that once you go much over 300-325HP in this car you'll have wasted money.
Put that extra money into reliability and just plain enjoy the thing for what it is instead oif trying to make it into something it isn't.
Wayne's comments bear reading again. Do you want something that if you make the mistake of putting your foot down at the wrong time can exceeed it's design limits?
Now excuse me while this old fool puts on some coffee and then my flame suit. :D

I think rereading my comments would be a good place to start when looking at a high HP 818 build and how to do it properly. Like I said peak hp numbers tell very little about the car being built and really have no bearing on much of anything. How the power is laid out and all the other parts of the car determine what it's ultimate performance will be. Regardless of what platform you use a high hp build of any kind is a series of careful design and engineering choices. GTM, custom tube chassis, 818, carbon f1 style tub, whatever your chassis looks like that's just one part of a bigger equation. short wheel base 2 wheel drive can work very well with stupid amounts of power. Just gotta know what you are doing.



:( I was hoping you were going to make a believer out of everyone. Also how is your STi coming along?

You have to look again. I have them all too and there were quite a few Subaru builds. They built a turbo car before the WRX debuted. Then project wrx, then project sti, then another.

I still want to build it and that is the intended goal, I may be a bit crazy but there are limits to the madness. I do think I will end up with one of the more powerful 818's regardless.

STi is waiting on her motor. I have in mind about a 2 year build cycle before I consider that project finished or pushed as far as I can.


SCC tackled a couple but for the most part the subaru builds were all one of super custom jobs or using stuff from japan. That, turbo, import tuner, you just didn't really see a whole lot of subaru builds. Way more these days. If you were looking at mags from japan then the ratio of subaru builds was totally different, same with mags from the UK. :( I don't have all issues of SCC but most, will have to go through and see. Perhaps there were more subaru builds then I realized and I was just a honda/toyota fanboy LOL!!

-Matt

[Wayne Presley]

it's easy to figure out the power increase, you base it on the pressure ratio increase is proportional to the power increase. The pressure ratio uses absolute pressure so going from 12 psi to 16 psi is (16+14.7)/(12+14.7). 30.7/26.7=1.15 .

[Matty_STi]

it's easy to figure out the power increase, you base it on the pressure ratio increase is proportional to the power increase. The pressure ratio uses absolute pressure so going from 12 psi to 16 psi is (16+14.7)/(12+14.7). 30.7/26.7=1.15 .

Good for a rough estimate but not an exact. A 10% pressure increase doesn't perfectly translate into 10% more power. That efficiency is determined by where on the compressor map you are (and thus the thermal efficiency of the compressor), intercooler efficiency and flow support, manifold cam and head flow ranges (keeping the air from packing up) also back pressure on the turbo from the increase in air being pushed into the cylinders. Next you have to worry about what additional temperature increases that added pressure will introduce into other areas of the system outside of the points mentioned. A 30% increase in pressure could result in a 10% power increase if efficiency tanks and you get thermal run away with air packing up and getting stuck in various parts of the system. Conversely you could hit a point in the compressor map that is very efficient and get a flow rate that is optimized through the intercooler and rest of the system resulting in a net gain beyond stand alone pressure increase percentage. Just to make you guys think about more stuff.. lol

[AZPete]

it's easy to figure out the power increase, you base it on the pressure ratio increase is proportional to the power increase. The pressure ratio uses absolute pressure so going from 12 psi to 16 psi is (16+14.7)/(12+14.7). 30.7/26.7=1.15 .

Easy for YOU maybe. I'm enjoying this thread even though I barely understand the details. It is a lot like the Roadster threads with some saying "too much is not enough" horsepower and others saying "it's just too much". It shows the best part of the FFR cars: build it the way you want it.
Pete

[Evan78]

Good for a rough estimate but not an exact.So your rule of thumb is "never use your thumbs"? Or, "there are no rules"? Maybe "there are many rules, give me a couple hours to run the numbers"? LOL

[Matty_STi]

So your rule of thumb is "never use your thumbs"? Or, "there are no rules"? Maybe "there are many rules, give me a couple hours to run the numbers"? LOL

My rule of thumb is never hit your thumbs, that sucks! hahahahaha

[Wayne Presley]

Good for a rough estimate but not an exact. A 10% pressure increase doesn't perfectly translate into 10% more power. That efficiency is determined by where on the compressor map you are (and thus the thermal efficiency of the compressor), intercooler efficiency and flow support, manifold cam and head flow ranges (keeping the air from packing up) also back pressure on the turbo from the increase in air being pushed into the cylinders. Next you have to worry about what additional temperature increases that added pressure will introduce into other areas of the system outside of the points mentioned. A 30% increase in pressure could result in a 10% power increase if efficiency tanks and you get thermal run away with air packing up and getting stuck in various parts of the system. Conversely you could hit a point in the compressor map that is very efficient and get a flow rate that is optimized through the intercooler and rest of the system resulting in a net gain beyond stand alone pressure increase percentage. Just to make you guys think about more stuff.. lol


I agree 100%, I was pointing out that pressure ratio change is waaaaaaay more accurate that saying X hp per lb of boost. And if you look at my example, I used 14% HP difference instead of the calculated 15% due to thermal and frictional loss difference at the higher hp :D

[David Hodgkins]

I agree 100%, I was pointing out that pressure ratio change is waaaaaaay more accurate that saying X hp per lb of boost. And if you look at my example, I used 14% HP difference instead of the calculated 15% due to thermal and frictional loss difference at the higher hp :D

Yeah. What he said.

:D

PS If you need me, I'll be over in the corner pulling my upper lip over my head.

[Movieman]

Ahh, the heck with talking common sense.
Lets move the driver compartment forward 4 feet, stick this in the current passenger compartment and scare ourselves silly! :D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Ford-Aluminum-SOHC-427-FE-Cammer-Engine-Complete-/380282550288

[FFR-ADV]

Hi Wayne,

Could you please tell us more about your Air/Water Intercooler Plans (Part Selection, sources...)? I am very curious about this option.

I have seen some impressive low (0.1 psi) drop across the air water intercooler made by places like froozenboost.

Thanks!

[Evan78]

Ahh, the heck with talking common sense.
Lets move the driver compartment forward 4 feet, stick this in the current passenger compartment and scare ourselves silly! :D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Ford-Aluminum-SOHC-427-FE-Cammer-Engine-Complete-/3802825502884 FEET?! Are you going to couple the crank to the Subaru crank?

[Matty_STi]

Here is an example of someone who shouldn't build a 700hp 818

http://jalopnik.com/watch-this-idiot-kid-light-his-miata-and-himself-on-fir-484891810 :D hahahaha

ffr-adv - I will also be doing an AWI and have been used them for a few different projects. Let me know if you need some advice (or I can post answers to questions in which ever thread is relevant). :)

Wayne - *thumbs up* lol :)


-Matt

[FFR-ADV]

I will also be doing an AWI and have been used them for a few different projects. Let me know if you need some advice (or I can post answers to questions in which ever thread is relevant).

Hi Matt,

Perhaps we should move it to http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?7680-Hmmm-How-about-a-Air-Water-Intercooler-or-other-aftermarket-options&highlight=water+intercooler to avoid hijacking this thread.

Thank you for the info.

Cheers!

[Mesa Mike]

Dave.....don't worry about "uglystick". You can't please all the people all the time and there is always someone who is going to complain about something.

[Wayne Presley]

Hi Wayne,

Could you please tell us more about your Air/Water Intercooler Plans (Part Selection, sources...)? I am very curious about this option.

I have seen some impressive low (0.1 psi) drop across the air water intercooler made by places like froozenboost.

Thanks!
I'll be using twin heat exchangers in the outer front openings, lightning/cobra IC pump and a yet to be determined IC. I'm going to make a kit eventually, have to get my kits first...

[FFR-ADV]

Thanks Wayne,

Is that Lightning/Cobra IC pump made by Bosch?

17263

Cheers!

Steve

[Wayne Presley]

Thanks Wayne,

Is that Lightning/Cobra IC pump made by Bosch?

17263
Cheers!

Steve

That's it!

[Movieman]

4 FEET?! Are you going to couple the crank to the Subaru crank?

It was tongue in cheek after reading some of the comments but with the group of talent in this forum I would bet that
someone could make it work!
I can see it now..The driver sitting between the front shock towers praying the engine doesn't decide to inhale him into those carbs and the tires themselves crying every time they hear the engine start! :D

[Evan78]

LOL, yeah I know you weren't serious. I just figured that the v8 wouldn't be THAT much longer than the boxer. Sitting between the front wheels would be pretty interesting though.

[Mechie3]

I use a similar bosch water pump on the Fmod.

Speaking of updates, I saw the 818R in the current issue of GRM.

[bromikl]

Too much power?

Not anymore.

17185


You're welcome. ;)

Did no one notice the big-*ss fan on the back? That's the Brabham BT46B. It sucks air from under the car and blows it out the back. And we have an unused output on the transmission. :D

[bromikl]

...in 1978 was the Brabham BT46B Fancar, designed by Gordon Murray. Its fan, spinning on a horizontal, longitudinal axis at the back of the car, took its power from the main gearbox. The car avoided the sporting ban by claims that the fan's main purpose was for engine cooling as less than 50% of the airflow was used to create a depression under the car. It raced just once, with Niki Lauda winning at the Swedish Grand Prix. The car's supreme advantage was proven after the track became oily. While other cars had to slow, Lauda was able to accelerate over the oil due to the tremendous downforce, which rose with engine speed.[6] The car was also observed to visibly squat when the engine was revved at a standstill.

[Twinspool]

17367

1970. Jim Hall. Chaparral 2J. As much respect as I have for Gordon Murray, he was copying that car. The 2J used a separate 2 stroke snowmobile engine to drive fans that created a vacuum between the car and the road.

[longislandwrx]

http://blog.caranddriver.com/lemons-goodbad-idea-of-the-week-cessna-airplane-wing-provides-serious-downforce-for-honda-civic/

and then again on "our lady of perpetual downforce"

[bnr32jason]

Does anyone know what spec the 818kg/1800lb target weight is being based on?

It seems they are using a 2006 WRX donor for their testbed, so can we assume that they are using stock WRX seats, stock brakes, stock wheels, etc to achieve the 1800lb goal?

Seems if they are doing that, you can drop about 50-75lbs through the use of lighter seats, brakes, and wheels.

Or is the 818kg weight being based on the R version while the street version is expected to be heavier?

[Silvertop]

Does anyone know what spec the 818kg/1800lb target weight is being based on?

It seems they are using a 2006 WRX donor for their testbed, so can we assume that they are using stock WRX seats, stock brakes, stock wheels, etc to achieve the 1800lb goal?

Seems if they are doing that, you can drop about 50-75lbs through the use of lighter seats, brakes, and wheels.

Or is the 818kg weight being based on the R version while the street version is expected to be heavier?

If memory serves (and that's a BIG IF), the 818kg target was based on the street version. Which means the R should be lighter. Someone in the know from FFR (or maybe Wayne) ought to be able to confirm or otherwise clarify............

[Evan78]

I have the same impression. I think the street version target was 1800.

[David]

I honestly don't know what that much power is like. It actually scares me. I am hoping that a third party traction control unit can help.

Racelogic may work well...

[FFR-ADV]

I like the idea of traction control David!

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en/other-products/traction-control?start=6

RLTC6DIA Adjustable Traction Control (Up to 6 Cyl) + Launch Control ABS + Digital Adjuster £695 approximately $1,081.91 US at current exchange rates

Faster times probably still come from proper use of braking and throttle control than the foot down approach, leaving it to smooth out the rough edges and possibly save a car from a spin out and possible accident in unexpected traction loss situations (sand, water, oil...)

There are plenty of videos of turbo boost onset sending a Super Car into oncoming stopped traffic when turning left at a stoplight and accelerating hard.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CopatllZoVY

Traction control helps but an engaged brain is even more important! :rolleyes:

Are such devices allowed in autocross or open track?

Thanks!

[Dave Smith]

Does anyone know what spec the 818kg/1800lb target weight is being based on?

It seems they are using a 2006 WRX donor for their testbed, so can we assume that they are using stock WRX seats, stock brakes, stock wheels, etc to achieve the 1800lb goal?

Seems if they are doing that, you can drop about 50-75lbs through the use of lighter seats, brakes, and wheels.

Or is the 818kg weight being based on the R version while the street version is expected to be heavier?


The target goal of 818kg was 1800 lbs. That goal, while important, is one that can be pulled up or down quite significantly with mods. Believe it or not, the 818R is the heavier of the two, with full cage and the race fuel cell weighs more than the deleted seat saves. Still, right now I can have the boys publish the scaled weights of reach. The magazines weigh cars with a full tank of gas, so the 818R suffered more. I think the 818S is solidly in the 1800 target weight, but the R is above 1900 lbs. I'll get you guys the wet/curb weights in the am.

Dave

[metalmaker12]

Thanks Dave, we are all wondering the curb weights. My father and I can't wait to to come to the open house to pay our 818S pre-order in full and ask a some questions. This is getting exciting and my date is August 17 2013 so I am going nuts. Being a Subaru guy involved with a well known R.I based Subaru speed shop (Wicked Innovations), I hope to help further promote this great project car. Thanks for this awesome car Dave and FFR and all the others involved.

Chris Marciano

[FFR-ADV]

Dave, Jim & 818 Development team

Thank you for helping to extend our reach to a car that would otherwise be beyond it. Hitting the weight goals on the 818S is not a trivial achievement. Late in projects it is all to easy to solve problems by adding weight. Jim and his development team have avoided that which is evidence of their skill. But the best evidence is the performance of the 818R on the track. Wow! That an 818R is slightly heavier with fuel cell, aero kit, fire suppression system is not surprising. Clearly the benefit of having these additions greatly outweighs the few pounds that adds to the car. through both safety and performance Thank you for bringing your passion and commitment to seeing this project through. I am looking forward to building an 818S this fall.

Cheers!

Steve

[longislandwrx]

Speaking of what Chris said...

Has there been any talk from FF about making/taking payments? Or when they'd like full payment? I kind of thought I would have received a call from them by now to start ironing out the order details but I understand how busy they are.


I am surprised that the R is that much heavier... losing a seat, windshield, muffler, door latches. etc seems like it would make up for a fuel cell and some extra tubing... Like Steve said though the R has a lot more safety systems installed and accessories in place. I look forward to the actual numbers.

[blueoval_bowtie_guy]

Speaking of what Chris said...

Has there been any talk from FF about making/taking payments? Or when they'd like full payment? I kind of thought I would have received a call from them by now to start ironing out the order details but I understand how busy they are.



With their other kits, you make final payment before you have it shipped or pick it up. They KNOW if you don't buy it, someone else will (and will real soon).

[Silvertop]

With their other kits, you make final payment before you have it shipped or pick it up. They KNOW if you don't buy it, someone else will (and will real soon).

True. But it is probable that FFR will be looking for something more than the $99 preorder deposit before they begin manufacturing a customer's kit. $1000 or so, or maybe 10%. In any event, they will need to ask the customer what he/she wishes for options. Color, top/no top, heater (if available), diffuser, wing, etc. I'm guessing that will all happen about 6 weeks before customer kit production. But I'm just speculating.

[Wayne Presley]

I believe that the balance is due 10 business days before ship date on the kits.

[Dave Smith]

We've got a production scheduling meeting this week and should be in close contact with guys who have orders on the books shortly (maybe 2 weeks for sure).

With respect to the actual measured weight of the cars, I'll be posting the full vehicle spec sheets today on our website for the 818R and 818S. But here are the scaled weights for the driving cars so far.

818R: Curb weight 1906 lbs. This was with all fluids, painted body (stock kit will not need paint), street fuel tank with 10 gallons fuel, and aero parts, Subaru harness (un-modified-no wire diet), fire suppression, and GTM seats. When we added the race fuel cell and changed to a Kirkey roadracing seat, we got 1950 lbs (fuel amount was estimated at 1/2 tank). Road & Track scaled the car but FILLED the 18 gallon fuel cell and the car came in at 2,011 lbs full.

818S: Curb weight 1847 lbs. This was with windshield, full street set-up, all fluids, stock fuel tank with unknown fuel level (estimated at 1/2 full), and utilizing WRX rather than imprezza running gear (Imprezza non-turbo would net maybe 50-90 lbs less!). This was with GTM seats rather than stock subie seats (which would be heavier by a bit).

Conclusion: I am happy that the design team completed the goals of 1800 lbs/818kg. The car CAN be made lighter than the ones we've built and tested. The cars can also be made heavier with stereos, HVAC, etc. An aftermarket harness would save a ton and make the car easier to build (its on the list but not done). The weight range is pretty large, but I am very pleased with where the car is and it will not change as we've signed off on the design and those chassis numbers/weights will not change beyond the variability of builds. We are also leaving the door wide open for some carbon body panels and the guys have some tricks up their sleeves for unsprung weight reduction, and perhaps an ultra-light track star in the year ahead.

[JAubin]

Awesome numbers! That's really solid to be able to hit the 1800 lb goal. Assuming the 818S had 5 gal of fuel in it, it would weight 1817lbs without fuel, but with all other fluids. Within 0.9% of target? Yeah that's really good. Congrats, can't wait until these start rolling (ummm shipping) out!

With regards to new versions, has any thought been given to if when something, say an ultra-light track star, or other top option is announced that people that have pre-ordered can transfer their order to one of the "next" options? With the understanding that it would be a longer lead time, and that since there isn't a design yet there's no guarantees. I'm about ready to pull the trigger on an 818S, but I'm also extremely interested in future developments (before I'd receive my kit in any case) , and while I'm over the top excited at the prospect of building the S as it stands now, want to consider every option...

The possibilities of this program are pretty astounding, I can only imagine that the team there has to be pretty excited to start looking at some other options....tho it sounds like they may have already been doing that :)

[sponaugle]

Racelogic may work well...


I like the idea of traction control David!

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en/other-products/traction-control?start=6

RLTC6DIA Adjustable Traction Control (Up to 6 Cyl) + Launch Control ABS + Digital Adjuster £695 approximately $1,081.91 US at current exchange rates

Are such devices allowed in autocross or open track?

Thanks!

I have a racelogic system for my GTO (Twin Turbo LS2 700whp). The Racelogic system is very very good... and very programmable. You have an in car dial that you can turn to select how much slip you want, and at each level there are programmable curves that dictate how much power is pulled to get traction back.

There certainly is some calibration, but the system can handle that. It uses per cylinder fuel cut (cutting fuel for a single combustion cycle) to reduce engine torque. Since it selects which cylinder and the duration, is can be pretty effective at cutting back power even in a turbo environment (which an ignition retard system can't really do). You also get launch control and flat foot shifting, but of course those options are already available for the WRX ECUs.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

818S: Curb weight 1847 lbs. This was with windshield, full street set-up, all fluids, stock fuel tank with unknown fuel level (estimated at 1/2 full), and utilizing WRX rather than imprezza running gear (Imprezza non-turbo would net maybe 50-90 lbs less!). This was with GTM seats rather than stock subie seats (which would be heavier by a bit).


That is very impressive, and congratulations to the team. I can't wait to drive this car!

Jeff

[Oppenheimer]

818S: Curb weight 1847 lbs = MISSION ACCOMPLISHED (the goal wasn't 'under' 1800 lbs. Plus if you round off, its 1800). Congratulations.


The magazines weigh cars with a full tank of gas...

That always seemed silly to me, as it penalizes cars with more fuel capacity. The importance of the magazines number is not 'how much will it weigh when I use it', but rather 'how does it stack up against other cars'. For that it would seem the most logical way to compare would be to include all the fluids required for operation, except fuel.

Another way to compare would be to include enough fuel to travel, say, 100 miles or something. That way you are giving advantage where it belongs. If one car gets better mileage, but has a larger tank anyway, its given an advantage, rather than penalized.

[Darkpiggy's dad]

I always thought the weight goal was for a 818 Kg 'world car' with a regularly aspirated impreza engine available everywhere. Sounds to me like the outcome was actually less than 818 Kg by a pinch. Pretty darn good work!

[Darkpiggy's dad]

For someone with knowledge of these things, how much weight could be saved with an aftermarket wiring harness? I don't have any idea. My car will not have ac, and unless my wife insists, a stereo. The engine will be fi, and I am weighing traction control and abs because I have two nineteen year olds who will want to carve some new corners with it.

[longislandwrx]

That's 110 lbs of gas in the 818R... Shouldn't be too hard to get it under 1800 without a full monster fuel cell.

I think the weight savings of the parts I already have should get the weight down about 45 lbs. The upgraded brakes will be where the real numbers come off. That fire system probably weighed a good 20 lbs and there's at least 10lbs to be found in the harness.

I think you guys killed it. congrats.

[bnr32jason]

Thanks for the weight numbers!

Interesting, It seems like a decent amount of weight can still be lost from a stock body 818S.

Stock WRX 4-pot calipers have been weighed at 24.5lbs for both. A comparably sized Wilwood kit (12.2" vs 11.5") would be 8.2lbs for both calipers (plus maybe 3lbs for brake pads) so that's eliminating 13lbs of unsprung weight for just calipers. Wilwood rotors with hats would be 21lbs for both, stock rotors are 28lbs. So that's 20lbs of unsprung weight savings just by changing to Wilwood brakes in the front. You can sell the stock brakes for $500 or so on the forums as well.

I'm not sure how much GTM seats weigh (anyone know) but something like the Corbeau FX1 Pro comes in at 19lbs.

Most of the 818 testing pictures I've seen have it fitted with Enkei RP-F1 wheels so I don't think we'll find much weight loss there unless you spend significantly more for forged wheels.

The wiring harness will be a significant "easy" weight loss of about 10lbs as others have said.

Some of us will have to fit a heater/defroster system for registration requirements (WA state is one) so I'm assuming we will have to add 15-20lbs for an aftermarket setup.

NA guys will see a big weight savings with the simplified exhaust system and lack of turbocharger. I could see some NA guys dropping into the 16xx range if they try hard.

[bbjones121]

The cars can also be made heavier with stereos, HVAC, etc.

I like to hear this. Being in Denver, it can get pretty cold, quickly. A heater would be nice. Definitely going to have a stereo also.

[longislandwrx]

So that's 20lbs of unsprung weight savings just by changing to Wilwood brakes in the front.

even better, the 12" wildwood kit actually saves 28 lbs.

http://www.wrxforums.com/forums/83-3g-wrx-brakes/19339-wilwood-brake-kits-group-interest.html

[metalmaker12]

I am not a big fan of the willwoods, I have had two sets over the years and I had a lot of leaking problems, and even had a caliper snap. I have had better success with the sti brembos and 4 pots. I also had a set of nice stop tech fronts, and those were really nice, but wicked expensive

[Silvertop]

NA guys will see a big weight savings with the simplified exhaust system and lack of turbocharger. I could see some NA guys dropping into the 16xx range if they try hard.

True -- Although it is likely that the NA guys will generally not be quite as rabid about saving weight as some of the turbo guys -- since maximum performance probably won't their primary objective. I'll be happy to save some weight due to my NA build-- but I'm not going to sacrifice having a stereo or some sort of heating system to do it. Street toy, dont'cha know...........:)

[RM1SepEx]

My goal of 10 lbs per loaded HP makes it easy... add 100 lbs to loaded weight est (2300lbs is 1900 + 2 @ 200 lbs adults) I just need to tune for 230 RWHP! A street machine with occasional autocross need not diet so much.

Dan

[Silvertop]

My goal of 10 lbs per loaded HP makes it easy... add 100 lbs to loaded weight est (2300lbs is 1900 + 2 @ 200 lbs adults) I just need to tune for 230 RWHP! A street machine with occasional autocross need not diet so much.

Dan

Sounds like a sensible target to me.......... Based on the mods I've made to my NA engine, I probably won't be able to manage much better than 11 1/2 to 12 lbs per HP (at the wheels) -- and only then after I've ejected my passenger! :p

[AZPete]

". . . how much weight could be saved with an aftermarket wiring harness?"

Maybe someone knows the weight savings of a dieted WRX harness but for my FFR roadster all the OE harnesses weighed 65 lbs. and the dieted version was only 14 lbs. . . . that was 51 lbs. cut away!
Can we stop talking about weight, please? I pigged out last weekend at a backyard BBQ.
Pete

[bnr32jason]

I am not a big fan of the willwoods, I have had two sets over the years and I had a lot of leaking problems, and even had a caliper snap. I have had better success with the sti brembos and 4 pots. I also had a set of nice stop tech fronts, and those were really nice, but wicked expensive

The only problem with Brembos, and the reason I won't be using the ones I bought is that they are HEAVY, especially if you use stock rotors.

STI Brembo front calipers weigh 11lbs each with pads and comparable Wilwood calipers weigh 6lbs each with pads. The rotors come in at 20lbs each versus a comparable Wilwood rotor at 14lbs with hat. The biggest downfall to brakes like Wilwood (and many aftermarket brakes) is you have to rebuild them more often, but rebuilding a Wilwood caliper, even a 6-pot is only about $10 in parts and fairly easy to do.

Now 2-piece rotors for the Brembo brakes would help, but those are very expensive, especially compared to Wilwood rotors.

[longislandwrx]

yes, and the 04 brembos command a premium.

running gyrodiscs or dbas will save a few lbs but for $700?

http://www.girodisc.com/Girodisc-Front-2pc-Floating-Rotors-for-04-Present-STi_p_5514.html


metal what issues have you had with them... do you think they will translate to an 1800lb car?

[WIS89]

Dave-

The only problem is that when you put a fat guy like me in the driver's seat, it's going to be like that shark with one fin missing, always swimming in a circle; I'll end up driving in a left handed circle because of all the added ummm "mass" in the driver's seat!

Congratulations again on an exceptional concept, incredibly thorough process, and soon to be production!! I am still amazed watching from afar. I can only imagine the excitement and pride that you and your team must have for this new platform. I can't wait to see the builds get started. Awesome!

Regards,

Steve






We've got a production scheduling meeting this week and should be in close contact with guys who have orders on the books shortly (maybe 2 weeks for sure).

With respect to the actual measured weight of the cars, I'll be posting the full vehicle spec sheets today on our website for the 818R and 818S. But here are the scaled weights for the driving cars so far.

818R: Curb weight 1906 lbs. This was with all fluids, painted body (stock kit will not need paint), street fuel tank with 10 gallons fuel, and aero parts, Subaru harness (un-modified-no wire diet), fire suppression, and GTM seats. When we added the race fuel cell and changed to a Kirkey roadracing seat, we got 1950 lbs (fuel amount was estimated at 1/2 tank). Road & Track scaled the car but FILLED the 18 gallon fuel cell and the car came in at 2,011 lbs full.

818S: Curb weight 1847 lbs. This was with windshield, full street set-up, all fluids, stock fuel tank with unknown fuel level (estimated at 1/2 full), and utilizing WRX rather than imprezza running gear (Imprezza non-turbo would net maybe 50-90 lbs less!). This was with GTM seats rather than stock subie seats (which would be heavier by a bit).

Conclusion: I am happy that the design team completed the goals of 1800 lbs/818kg. The car CAN be made lighter than the ones we've built and tested. The cars can also be made heavier with stereos, HVAC, etc. An aftermarket harness would save a ton and make the car easier to build (its on the list but not done). The weight range is pretty large, but I am very pleased with where the car is and it will not change as we've signed off on the design and those chassis numbers/weights will not change beyond the variability of builds. We are also leaving the door wide open for some carbon body panels and the guys have some tricks up their sleeves for unsprung weight reduction, and perhaps an ultra-light track star in the year ahead.

[0100]

Awesome job FFR on making weight!! With lots of spots to still shave weight. Yeah and guys don't forget the weight of the pilot! I am down to 147 lbs (mainly because I have a fight next month) but I definitely could stay at this weight and plan to.

The 818R is going to be a track beast. I can't wait to build an 818R Ultra-Light and put the hurt on everything on the track.

[Darkpiggy's dad]

Thanks AZPete. Dropping 50 pounds with a wire harness diet really makes me happy. Hopefully a wiring specialist will market a harness for the 818. Designing automotive wiring is out of my league.

[Thorne]

using the 16bit ecu you could do boost by gear and dial in the proper boost for your specfic setup.