Has Factory Five missed the mark with the 818?

[flying phoenix]

MOD EDIT: The original title of this thread by a first-time poster - Has Factory Five hit the 818 with the ugly stick? - Goes against the charter of this forum, which is to foster and promote the community surrounding Factory Five.

This thread is now closed.

I know some people really like the looks of the current 818, but I for one am significantly underwhelmed. When I saw the concept photos, it looked great! Any Alfa Romeo owner would be jealous and Pininfarina and Bertone should have had their pencils ready! Now somebody please tell me how we've gone from an Alfa Romeo 8c to a modded Honda Civic? I know that production costs, parts availibility and interchangeability, and complexity play their role in uglifying all cars, but why was the 818 hit so hard?

We went from here:16718

And here: 16719

To here: 16720

How does such blasphemy happen?

[shinn497]

Please stop.

[bnr32jason]

Opinions are like a-holes right?

In my opinion that first render is ugly, I wouldn't have bought the 818 if it was going to look exactly like that.

I think the car in it's current form looks GREAT. It's not perfect, I would change the front bumper styling a bit as well as add some kind of styling to the rear between the tail lights, but other than that, I'm pretty happy with it.

You call it blasphemy, I call it improvement. See how that works?

[shinn497]

2d drawings dont translate perfectly to 3d. Xabier's 818 was made as a 3d model and it didn't look as good. I've seen the 818 in person and it looks MUCH better. I'm more concerned with the quality of the finished product than I am the shape.

With that said my favorite has always been Olmos', maybe I'll figure out how to make my own body.

[blueafro]

Kit cars are not generally known for groundbreaking design. Most are known for the opposite, actually: blatant copies of existing bodies.

FFR is to be applauded for striking out on their own, even if the result is a little derivative and perhaps a bit bland and awkward from some angles. They join the ranks of very few other kit companies working today with full-bodied cars of their own design.

[Xusia]

I supposed if cost was no object, they could have figured out a way to make one of those other designs. But cost IS a factor. And personally, I thank them for producing a kit both that I can afford, and one that's easy enough for me to tackle. If the design isn't for you, that's cool. I'm sure there's a car out there with your name on it.

Also, while I wouldn't call the current design "knock your socks off," it's still pretty sexy to me. I'll be happy to own one, and proud to be driving it! :)

[AZPete]

flying phoenix has ony one post. Don't let him get traction here. Just ignore.

[bnr32jason]

Discussion outside of this forum also tends to go towards calling the 818 ugly. But taste is a funny thing, we all have our own interpretations of beauty and it goes well beyond just cars. Everything from women, to fashion, watches, shoes, music, art, the list goes on forever.

It's our responsibility though to make sure that we don't let what other people say make us question our own tastes.

[flying phoenix]

Kit cars are not generally known for groundbreaking design. Most are known for the opposite, actually: blatant copies of existing bodies.

FFR is to be applauded for striking out on their own, even if the result is a little derivative and perhaps a bit bland and awkward from some angles. They join the ranks of very few other kit companies working today with full-bodied cars of their own design.

I agree, and I am IN LOVE with the concept! Rally cross being my favorite form of racing (though I have much more experience with circuit and drag racing), I have grown to appreciate the Impreza WRX platform and how much it brings to the table per how little you shell out! The car has a ton of potential being mid-engined and all. I would even like to see in on the rally cross circuit one day (though I doubt that will happen).

[flying phoenix]

Opinions are like a-holes right?

In my opinion that first render is ugly, I wouldn't have bought the 818 if it was going to look exactly like that.

I think the car in it's current form looks GREAT. It's not perfect, I would change the front bumper styling a bit as well as add some kind of styling to the rear between the tail lights, but other than that, I'm pretty happy with it.

You call it blasphemy, I call it improvement. See how that works?

One of my all time favorite Clint Eastwood quotes! Honestly, I don't think the car looks ATROCIOUSLY awful, but I think the front end could be smoothed out. The back end could use some ventilation as well, but that's more in the mindset of performance rather than aesthetics.

Then again, maybe this car isn't supposed to scream, "Look at me!" I think this is more of one of those cars which you have great respect for, but you don't spend most of your time gawking at it at the car show. All in all, I still applaud FFR for making their own design rather than copying and pasting. I am definitely in support of the company. Still, it seems, to me at least, that it hasn't quite filled the shoes of it's big brother (GTM)

To each his own, but the changes were a bit too radical for me. :D

[bnr32jason]

Well, the cost to complete a GTM is what? 3-4x what it would cost to complete the 818?

I think the GTM is beautiful although if I was spending that much money I would build a RCR P4 replica with a Ferrari Testarossa V12 in the back of it, or even a Superlite Coupe with a LSx engine.

The 818 reaches an "every man's" price point, an even lower price point than exoskeleton kit cars. Perhaps if they raised the price of the car by $5k we could have a body that would have more sweeping and modern design cues. But a $10k kit isn't something you can expect too much from as far as exterior design goes. It's incredible that we are getting a complete chassis and unique body design for that price.

[Matty_STi]

Well if you want it to look like that buy the kit sans body and make your own. That's what I am essentially doing.

-Matt

[Jeff Kleiner]

To each his own, but the changes were a bit too radical for me.

Sounds like you won't be a customer so... http://www.fbfguns.com/images/animated/stickpeople/waving.gif

Jeff

[Erik W. Treves]

well this was a helpful thread....

[BipDBo]

Xabier's drawing had way too much intake area, very un-aerodynamic. The first model attempt to adapt Xabier's lines to a smaller intake area was one ugly catfish. This is much better IMO. I personally really like the design. It's not the most beautiful car ever shaped, but not bad. I've heard it's much better in real life, though, than on the screen.

[Mechie3]

I know that production costs, parts availibility and interchangeability, and complexity play their role in uglifying all cars,

Didn't you answer your own question?

If sweeping lines were simple, every car would look like a ferrari, not slab sided, non flared, large radius'd panels. Sharp creases are harder to make, the more elements you have, the tighter tolerance you need to make them all line up, the more complex the mold gets.

I'm an engineer and design injection molded parts. A simple open/close mold might cost you $3k and parts would cost you $1. Start adding undercuts and elements requiring time consuming 3D machining and you end up with a mold that costs $25k and parts that cost $2. That's for a small cartridge. Scale that up by a factor of 100 and you're going from a $300k mold to a $2.5mil mold. Huge different in the up front investment required.

[ehansen007]

Hey guys, having seen both the finished 818 and the Rodney Olmos model in person, I can honestly say you'd probably be glad they are going the way they are (Elliot, sorry, I know you love it!). The Rodney model, while very daring in shape and design, does NOT look good in 3D as a sports car. Just my opinion but it would probably be taken by the industry to be a kind of Myers Manx variant or futuristic dune buggy and not accepted well. It's the first thing I thought of when I saw it up close and in person. The shape is not very accommodating to a livable chassis either. Then, when I really thought about it, I think the wheels helped sell that car and we've all fallen for that in the various magazine concepts when they come to production. :) Put any other wheel on it and you'd see what I mean. Again, a nice design but you'd have to take my word for it, it's not a realistic. The 818 is already a huge success and I for one think that it's a great foundation for "making it your own" since it's not made on any existing shape or model. And, the more I look at it the more I like it. I guess designs are funny like that. Again, let's make it our own and really do some fun stuff with it!

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/Help%20Topics/58234a26-69bf-452e-9cf1-4ec389463e44_zpsa9ccb867.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/ehansen007/media/Help%20Topics/58234a26-69bf-452e-9cf1-4ec389463e44_zpsa9ccb867.jpg.html)

[Mechie3]

It reminds me of myspace angle photos. A lot of things look great from one angle (2D) then you see from any other angle and it looks meh. cars look great with a low 3/4 shot. Straight on from standing height, not so much.

Perfect example. (mildy NSFW)

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/f/e/fe846_ORIG-myspace_cropping_1_.jpg

[ehansen007]

it reminds me of myspace angle photos. A lot of things look great from one angle (2d) then you see from any other angle and it looks meh. Cars look great with a low 3/4 shot. Straight on from standing height, not so much.

Perfect example. (mildy nsfw)

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/f/e/fe846_orig-myspace_cropping_1_.jpg

exactly. Lol

[Movieman]

I know some people really like the looks of the current 818, but I for one am significantly underwhelmed. When I saw the concept photos, it looked great! Any Alfa Romeo owner would be jealous and Pininfarina and Bertone should have had their pencils ready! Now somebody please tell me how we've gone from an Alfa Romeo 8c to a modded Honda Civic? I know that production costs, parts availibility and interchangeability, and complexity play their role in uglifying all cars, but why was the 818 hit so hard?

We went from here:16718

And here: 16719

To here: 16720

How does such blasphemy happen?

There's an old expression of "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and so it is with cars.
After having toured FFR's facility and spending three hours with Jason, watching Dave Smith go from phone to project and back again non stop, seeing the quality of their work
and the love, yes, the correct word, that these people have for what they do I was truly impressed.
Are they perfect? No, but who is. Perfection is something people strive for but seldom obtain.
Now personally I'm one of the old farts who wants the coupe when I assemble the cash to do it and not a huge fan of Subroos or the like BUT I followed the 818 thread out of curiousity and I have to tell you, they impressed the hell out of me.
Now some will like this part or want to change that part and that is normal as we all see with different eyes but the overall picture is they designed the car THEY were looking to build and IMHO I think they did a pretty good job at it to the point that I'm starting to rethink my feelings.

OH, Jeff Kleiner: Perfect..Thank You!..Where is the "bows" smiley when you need one!

[flying phoenix]

Xabier's drawing had way too much intake area, very un-aerodynamic.

That's the exact problem with recent design. Sure it's areodynamic, but it's BORING! In the 60's and 50's they designed a car to LOOK GOOD. Going fast was the motor's job. It's the reason a 60's Ferrari 250 GTO is worth 30 million and an much more aerodynamic 80's or 90's Ferrari is worth 30 thousand.

[flying phoenix]

Are they perfect? No, but who is.

That's simple! Pagani Automobili is! (Jk)

[Movieman]

That's simple! Pagani Automobili is! (Jk)
Actually If I had to offer my uneducated opinion I would say that the most "beautiful" car ever designed to my eyes was the first model Jag XK-E..
Now I have wanted a "Cobra" since I was 14 years old and first saw one in a a showroom with my Father in 1966 but the early Jag I think just got it "right" from a body design point of view.
Again, thats just my opinion but today at age 61 given the choice of a mint Jag XK-E or FFR's coupe I'd take the coupe and never rethink my decision.

[flying phoenix]

Actually If I had to offer my uneducated opinion I would say that the most "beautiful" car ever designed to my eyes was the first model Jag XK-E..
Now I have wanted a "Cobra" since I was 14 years old and first saw one in a a showroom with my Father in 1966 but the early Jag I think just got it "right" from a body design point of view.
Again, thats just my opinion but today at age 61 given the choice of a mint Jag XK-E or FFR's coupe I'd take the coupe and never rethink my decision.

The e-type is the predecessor to the 250 GTO in a way. They both have the same basic geometry, and it was really sort of a starting point for Enzo in the day. I have immense respect for Jaguar personally, and I hope that the new F-type is going to be a worthy successor.

[kgkeys]

Actually If I had to offer my uneducated opinion I would say that the most "beautiful" car ever designed to my eyes was the first model Jag XK-E..
Now I have wanted a "Cobra" since I was 14 years old and first saw one in a a showroom with my Father in 1966 but the early Jag I think just got it "right" from a body design point of view.
Again, thats just my opinion but today at age 61 given the choice of a mint Jag XK-E or FFR's coupe I'd take the coupe and never rethink my decision.

My second favorite to the Cobra has always been the D-type! ;-)

[Mechie3]

That's the exact problem with recent design. Sure it's areodynamic, but it's BORING! In the 60's and 50's they designed a car to LOOK GOOD. Going fast was the motor's job. It's the reason a 60's Ferrari 250 GTO is worth 30 million and an much more aerodynamic 80's or 90's Ferrari is worth 30 thousand.

That's not why it's worth so much. Correlation != causation.

We live in a world where it's not good enough anymore to design bricks and let the motor be fast. Sure, in the 60's, since that's all anyone could do, it was enough. Now we can go faster with smaller, lighter motors and aerodynamic chassis. The guy that wins races nowadays looks at everything as a system, not as individual components. I see it at autocross all the time (low level relatable example). Johnny has 500hp in his Subaru, but gets outrun by a stock block, non turbo, 1989 Honda Civic Si in raw times (happens in my region).

[flying phoenix]

It's pretty hard to hate on those two. Still, those two cars will probably never be matched. There are many pretty cars on the road today, but they're a bit to angular. Design fluctuates. In about 10-15 years,hopefully we'll be back to beautiful curvy cars like we had in the past.

[Movieman]

My second favorite to the Cobra has always been the D-type! ;-)
I should toss in a qualifer. There is ONE car and only one that I'd prefer to a well assembled FFR coupe but that is not something I could ever own.
Now you have to understand that although I think the XK-E is the most beautiful design I'm not a big fan of "6 bangers" so this is the Jag that
screams at me and steals my heart..The XJ13:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9FoExi1yxI
Now that would be one heck of a kit car to build and there are plenty of 326 ci Jag V12's around!

[skullandbones]

Should a joined in on the discussion when it was relevant and there was a chance your input would matter (flyingphx). FFR has come up with some fairly elegant solutions for this project considering all the limitations involved. But to call it ugly is just downright rude. It's so far from ugly, it's not funny. WEK.

[Movieman]

Should a joined in on the discussion when it was relevant and there was a chance your input would matter (flyingphx). FFR has come up with some fairly elegant solutions for this project considering all the limitations involved. But to call it ugly is just downright rude. It's so far from ugly, it's not funny. WEK.

SHHH, I changed the subject on him ...intentionally!:D

[PhyrraM]

The problem isn't what the 818 looks like or not.

The problem is the relative intolerance of discussion of the subject. When Dave came on here and basically 'shut down' the flow of information after the first round of almost universal criticism - the flavor of the board changed. Those really invested (emotionally or from prior FFR experience) in the project became very intolerant of any negative discussion.

I'm not saying it was right or wrong, because I'm not one to beat a dead horse either, but that IS the way it went down.

[skullandbones]

flying phoenix has ony one post. Don't let him get traction here. Just ignore.

Sorry! Or ^^ works! But I guess for a forum it's harder to do that. Woulda, coulda, shoulda isn't as much fun as discussing what we have now. I can't wait to see one on the road here in PHX.

[Turboguy]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16719&d=1366168536

Come on - you can't tell me this thing isn't uber-sexy

[BipDBo]

The problem isn't what the 818 looks like or not.

The problem is the relative intolerance of discussion of the subject. When Dave came on here and basically 'shut down' the flow of information after the first round of almost universal criticism - the flavor of the board changed. Those really invested (emotionally or from prior FFR experience) in the project became very intolerant of any negative discussion.

I'm not saying it was right or wrong, because I'm not one to beat a dead horse either, but that IS the way it went down.

The first model, often termed the "catfish" recieved almost universal criticism. Some people liked it, but it was a very small portion of the forum. This design, which looks very different, received nothing close to that. Some people didn't like it. Probably a majority, including myself, did like it. Many people claimed hair on fire. Some of the minority of those who did not like it though, seemed to take the design as a personal attack and became very loud and rude about it. That's when Dave shut down the info. If you don't like it, don't buy it. There are other kits out there.

[Matty_STi]

The problem isn't what the 818 looks like or not.

The problem is the relative intolerance of discussion of the subject. When Dave came on here and basically 'shut down' the flow of information after the first round of almost universal criticism - the flavor of the board changed. Those really invested (emotionally or from prior FFR experience) in the project became very intolerant of any negative discussion.

I'm not saying it was right or wrong, because I'm not one to beat a dead horse either, but that IS the way it went down.

I noticed that myself...

[Vman7]

Well I guess this needs to be said again. Try not to take this as a negative,but as a positive. So I would like to encourage everybody to just hang in there and give the 818 some time, remember this is just the 1st generation of the 818. Look how the roadster, GTM, and coupe have come along over time.

The 818 for the price point that FFR is trying to reach, the 818 is extremely well done. The possible potential the 818 is really for a better lack of words is unlimited. Body panel changes for different looks etc., drivetrain changes etc., I could go on and on. Plus after FFR came out with some performance numbers, which by the way was a WOW factor in itself!

Now does the 818 have a wow factor, depends on how people look at it, for some it may be the looks, performance, or maybe just ok in looks, but they see potential for future things like body panel changes etc.

So again I would like to just encourage everybody just to stay postive about everything and remember how well FFR has done everything so far on all the cars they have done so far. Plus look at the community here, where else can you find such a great commmunity for kit/replica cars as the Factory Five ones.

David

[BipDBo]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16719&d=1366168536

Come on - you can't tell me this thing isn't uber-sexy

I never really understood the appeal of this design.

[PhyrraM]

I never really understood the appeal of this design.

And therein lies the problem.

Just as many folks say the same about the 818 (as it stands now). But the same exact comment, with the exact same intentions (mild or wild), is not as accepted by the community.

I find it amusing that 2 years ago, before there was any indication of how the 818 would look (it was just a contest), some forum members tried to state that the specs/performance/general idea of the 818 was more than enough to secure it's success. The statement was that kick-*** styling wouldn't be required if FFR got the rest of it right. I myself wrote something along the lines of "Looks won't matter". Those statements were quickly, and repeatedly, put down as false. It was very clear that the majority did care, and care a lot, that the 818 look amazing - and not like "a dune buggy".

The amusing part is that now, 2 years later, the looks are being heralded as secondary. Folks are now saying such things as "with performance like that, I can fix the looks". Humans are an amazing species. :p

[D2W]

And therein lies the problem.

Just as many folks say the same about the 818 (as it stands now). But the same exact comment, with the exact same intentions (mild or wild), is not as accepted by the community.

I find it amusing that 2 years ago, before there was any indication of how the 818 would look (it was just a contest), some forum members tried to state that the specs/performance/general idea of the 818 was more than enough to secure it's success. The statement was that kick-*** styling wouldn't be required if FFR got the rest of it right. I myself wrote something along the lines of "Looks won't matter". Those statements were quickly, and repeatedly, put down as false. It was very clear that the majority did care, and care a lot, that the 818 look amazing - and not like "a dune buggy".

The amusing part is that now, 2 years later, the looks are being heralded as secondary. Folks are now saying such things as "with performance like that, I can fix the looks". Humans are an amazing species. :p

Don't you think the shift in attitude could be attributed to the folks that stayed around to post after the shut down of information. If anyone does have a negative comment they are chastised and told to leave (see above). I assume stemming from a fear that any negativity will bring the wrath of the FFR gods, the old "No soup for you!" syndrome. My personal opinion is that a lot of people got very excited by the designs that came from the contest and felt betrayed by the design that was presented. Is that fair? Dave did ask for the communities involvement and when you open yourself to the world you better be ready for critisism. On the other hand he is writing the checks so he has to make the hard decisions. I think the design competition was more of a publicity stunt to raise awareness. It worked, but would have been much less of a let down if we had known that going in.

[Xusia]

Don't you think the shift in attitude could be attributed to the folks that stayed around to post after the shut down of information. If anyone does have a negative comment they are chastised and told to leave (see above). I assume stemming from a fear that any negativity will bring the wrath of the FFR gods, the old "No soup for you!" syndrome. My personal opinion is that a lot of people got very excited by the designs that came from the contest and felt betrayed by the design that was presented. Is that fair? Dave did ask for the communities involvement and when you open yourself to the world you better be ready for critisism. On the other hand he is writing the checks so he has to make the hard decisions. I think the design competition was more of a publicity stunt to raise awareness. It worked, but would have been much less of a let down if we had known that going in.

I think you are correct, but I don't think the lack of information or clarity prior to the contest was intentional. Rather, I think it was just a human mistake - happens all the time when communicating to other humans. What's clear to one person (or seems obvious) isn't necessarily so to another. Why do you think companies have PR departments (and still don't get it right, BTW!!!)?

[D2W]

I don't think that dave intentionally tried to trick anyone. I think he had an idea for a fun design exercise, as in show us your dream car designs, as you may remember ffr did not want to give any chassis dimensions. What they didn't expect was the flood of interest in designing the next FFR car. When then happened I believe, Dave got as excited as the rest of us and started to look into would it would take to build one of the designs. By his own admission the 1/4 scale cars cost a lot of money and he had a full scale model already with a lot of money invested. If the contest had never happened most people would be perfectly content with the current design.

[Turboguy]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16719&d=1366168536

Come on - you can't tell me this thing isn't uber-sexy

I never really understood the appeal of this design.

To me, it just screams 3 parts Porsche Spyder:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/03/porsche-918-spyder-r34.jpg

mixed with 1 part Porsche RS Spyder:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Porsche_RS_Spyder_Road_America_2007.jpg/800px-Porsche_RS_Spyder_Road_America_2007.jpg



And I guess that's what really floats my boat.

[wleehendrick]

flying phoenix: We're two months away from product launch and most of the regulars here already have, or are in the process of, prepping their donor parts and are anxiously awaiting their kits. At this point in time, the body is what it is, and those of us who put down deposits months ago clearly like what we're getting. When you start a thread this late in the game, with provocative and insulting words in title (ugly stick), on a topic that has been rehashed many times before, it's not surprising you got the reaction you did and were perceived as a troll.

[bnr32jason]

I have seen that there are many who enjoy the design and I would like to understand their reasons.

Stop, don't even try to understand why someone likes what they like. I'll never understand why some people like "thick" girls and they'll never understand why I like petite Asian girls. Go to a foot fetish forum (I'm sure one exists) and tell them feet are ugly and then try to understand why they think feet are beautiful. It's a futile effort that won't get you anywhere.

I don't think anyone is perfectly happy with the design of the 818, just like I'm not perfectly happy with the new LaFerrari or even a 1957 250 Testa Rossa. But overall I think it will be a great car, looks and all. Hopefully by the time I get mine delivered (April next year) there will be another option or two for the front bumper. But if not, I won't let my dislike for the front bumper make me hate the rest of the car.

Hopefully no one chastises me, but I think the Type 65 Coupe is terribly ugly, but I'm not going to go into their forum and start a thread saying so, because it's worthless to do so. It will simply incite arguments and people telling me to "GTFO."

[Xusia]

If the contest had never happened most people would be perfectly content with the current design.

Agreed.


Stop, don't even try to understand why someone likes what they like. I'll never understand why some people like "thick" girls and they'll never understand why I like petite Asian girls. Go to a foot fetish forum (I'm sure one exists) and tell them feet are ugly and then try to understand why they think feet are beautiful. It's a futile effort that won't get you anywhere.

I don't think anyone is perfectly happy with the design of the 818, just like I'm not perfectly happy with the new LaFerrari or even a 1957 250 Testa Rossa. But overall I think it will be a great car, looks and all. Hopefully by the time I get mine delivered (April next year) there will be another option or two for the front bumper. But if not, I won't let my dislike for the front bumper make me hate the rest of the car.

Hopefully no one chastises me, but I think the Type 65 Coupe is terribly ugly, but I'm not going to go into their forum and start a thread saying so, because it's worthless to do so. It will simply incite arguments and people telling me to "GTFO."

OMG! True DAT!

Though I would add that IF he is sincere, understanding other people's feelings on the car may not help him like it any better, but it may help him accept the design as is.

[David Hodgkins]

Gentlemen, let's keep the comments in line with our community charter. 4 posts deleted...

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3543-PLEASE-READ-Community-and-the-818-forum

:)

[bbjones121]

Sorry, this is not the reworked model. The reworked model would like nice in 3D, there are lots of concepts of FUTURE sports cars that have similarities to Rodneys design.


Hey guys, having seen both the finished 818 and the Rodney Olmos model in person, I can honestly say you'd probably be glad they are going the way they are (Elliot, sorry, I know you love it!). The Rodney model, while very daring in shape and design, does NOT look good in 3D as a sports car. Just my opinion but it would probably be taken by the industry to be a kind of Myers Manx variant or futuristic dune buggy and not accepted well. It's the first thing I thought of when I saw it up close and in person. The shape is not very accommodating to a livable chassis either. Then, when I really thought about it, I think the wheels helped sell that car and we've all fallen for that in the various magazine concepts when they come to production. :) Put any other wheel on it and you'd see what I mean. Again, a nice design but you'd have to take my word for it, it's not a realistic. The 818 is already a huge success and I for one think that it's a great foundation for "making it your own" since it's not made on any existing shape or model. And, the more I look at it the more I like it. I guess designs are funny like that. Again, let's make it our own and really do some fun stuff with it!

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/ehansen007/Help%20Topics/58234a26-69bf-452e-9cf1-4ec389463e44_zpsa9ccb867.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/ehansen007/media/Help%20Topics/58234a26-69bf-452e-9cf1-4ec389463e44_zpsa9ccb867.jpg.html)

[David Hodgkins]

flying phoenix: We're two months away from product launch and most of the regulars here already have, or are in the process of, prepping their donor parts and are anxiously awaiting their kits. At this point in time, the body is what it is, and those of us who put down deposits months ago clearly like what we're getting. When you start a thread this late in the game, with provocative and insulting words in title (ugly stick), on a topic that has been rehashed many times before, it's not surprising you got the reaction you did and were perceived as a troll.

This is on the money. There was a period in time where hashing and re-hashing the why's and wherefores of the 1st gen skin design of the 818 raged in thread after thread after thread. I agree that we are well past that phase of the design. It is what it is, and let me tell you from personal experience, looks great in person.

Personal aesthetics aside, this design was finalized some time ago and we are eagerly awaiting the first deliveries of this 15K, 1.5 lateral G road hugging monster.

I invite you to read the archives to your heart's content if you wish to know about the evolution of the 818.

I don't see this thread going anywhere, and if it devolves into petty insults I will have to close it.

Let's keep it civil guys, ok?

:)

[bbjones121]

Here are the last efforts of Rodney after working with FFR if I remember correctly.

16761167621676316764

Hopefully Rodneys or Whetstones design make it into some other variants. It would be nice if those other bodies could fit on the same chassis and would probably sell more of the first design if people knew that was possible, but probably just a dream.

16769167701677116772

I still like the finalized design, but not like a WOW!, at least not from the pictures. You hear from everyone that it is much better in person and I will put some trust in those people. It is the same case with the Type 65 coupe and the GTM. I want to see the finished 818S version in person before committing, but I am certain I will commit in the end.

Just FYI, there will be other versions in the future from what Dave has said. We have also only seen a prototype. The production version bits and pieces of either the "R" or "S" are still being finalized. Things may change and things may not, but I would not judge on pictures alone. FFR needs to get some of the production versions out on the road before they can even be credibly judged.

[Turboguy]

16769167701677116772


WOW - that is freaking HOT !

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16772&d=1366253969

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16769&d=1366253965


This guy has some MAJOR skill.

[blueafro]

WOW - that is freaking HOT !

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16772&d=1366253969

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16769&d=1366253965


This guy has some MAJOR skill.

Agreed. I was very surprised Shawn's designs did not gain more adherents. They were head and shoulders above all of the others I saw posted.

[flying phoenix]

Beautiful designs guys. Thank you for stepping in admin. I want this thread to continue down this new road with posts of designs and opinions. This is a FORUM. People DISCUSS things. That IS what forums are for if I'm correct.

Like I said, this is not a "Lets bash the 818" thread or "hater" thread, but more of a "what I think it should look like" or "no, I like the way it looks now and this is why" type of thread. I love to see new ideas and designs that perhaps didn't make the time deadline. I was heavy into remote controll scratch building (still kind of am) and even experiemented with custom design and aerodynamics. I tried removing airfoils and all kinds of crazy stuff to make some darn fast (and efficient) planes.

I gave it the rather agressive name to the thread because everything in this world, to a degree, can be improved and car designs are definitely one of them. (The 818 is a great design though, even still)

Again, I cannot show how much respect I have for FFR for taking on a challenge like this, and although it is most certainly to late to affect the final product, they can always considder these opinions for the V2 818 whenever it comes out (if ever).

[David Hodgkins]

You guys are going to make me go through the archives. It was explained in a previous thread by one of the FFR engineers that this design is NOT Wookie compatible. BTW, for those new to the board, I am the working definition of Wookie. I put it out there extremely early in the process and I believe, actually "coined" the term. I'm 6'6" and 300+ lbs (although I AM on a diet and have lost 30 lbs so far). ;) I have already built a roadster and just this past weekend a 6'11' gentleman was able to sit in my roadster and work the pedals. My roadster has simple mods that folks can emulate to make their cars wookie-compatible...

But I digress.

The point I'm trying to make is that the design above - which I LOVE - does not work in the real world. You'd have to be like 5'2 to drive that car. And the design goal of the 818 is to make it appealing - and workable - for the 95+ percentile. It's not a Lotus Elise or Honda S2000. It's design parameters require that old farts like me be able to drive the car, not just build it.

Sorry, but that's reality.

Again, I LOVE that design. I've said so in previous threads, all the way back to when it was first posted. Not just now, 2 years later. But it doesn't work from a DRIVER's point of view for the vast majority of folks. That's why it was bypassed. The reality of on-the-road design does not - cannot - always meet the design aesthetic envision by design purists.

:)

PS It apparently hasn't hit the OP yet that this is not a new "path". There has been a LOT of interest in the 818 from the very fist days of this forum. And this discussion is a retread. But that's ok, the whole point of discussions like this is to educate and make sure no stone has been left unturned. We ALL want the 818 to succeed. Why? because we can't wait to DRIVE THIS CAR! Think about it: 1.5 lateral G's. Man, I can't WAIT to feel that!

[blueafro]

The point I'm trying to make is that the design above - which I LOVE - does not work in the real world. You'd have to be like 5'2 to drive that car. And the design goal of the 818 is to make it appealing - and workable - for the 95+ percentile. It's not a Lotus Elise or Honda S2000. It's design parameters require that old farts like me be able to drive the car, not just build it.


Well, I was thinking more in terms of the design contest, where a few other designs seemed to capture the crowd's imagination and not this one. It was bypassed in the contest, to my eternal puzzlement, given adherence to the template was widely spurned both by the popular designs and those chosen for merit by the committee.

As to manufacturability, I didn't fact check his statements, but Shawn was quite open that he assumed the fuel tank could be moved from its initial location beneath the seats, so he dropped the seat to the floor in his design.

The number one reason I can think of why that design could not have been adapted as-is is not the dimensions, which could perhaps have been stretched one way or the other, but rather the headlights. Realistically, any production design was going to require off the self lights.

[flying phoenix]

You guys are going to make me go through the archives. It was explained in a previous thread by one of the FFR engineers that this design is NOT Wookie compatible. BTW, for those new to the board, I am the working definition of Wookie. I put it out there extremely early in the process and I believe, actually "coined" the term. I'm 6'6" and 300+ lbs (although I AM on a diet and have lost 30 lbs so far). ;) I have already built a roadster and just this past weekend a 6'11' gentleman was able to sit in my roadster and work the pedals. My roadster has simple mods that folks can emulate to make their cars wookie-compatible...

But I digress.

The point I'm trying to make is that the design above - which I LOVE - does not work in the real world. You'd have to be like 5'2 to drive that car. And the design goal of the 818 is to make it appealing - and workable - for the 95+ percentile. It's not a Lotus Elise or Honda S2000. It's design parameters require that old farts like me be able to drive the car, not just build it.

Sorry, but that's reality.

Maybe so, but don't forget the GT40. That had height restrictions and went on to become Ford's most successful race car. As did many of the Russian MIG fighter jets, but that didn't stop them from becoming the most widely used in the world.

Sometimes practicality can be pushed aside, but you better have a DARN good reason to do so!

[bnr32jason]

Think about it: 1.5 lateral G's. Man, I can't WAIT to feel that!

I can't recall (I tried searching too) what tires were used during testing to achieve 1.5g?

If that can be done on aggressive street tires like a Advan AD08 or Dunlop Direzza Star Spec or something similar, I'll be very happy.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I can't recall (I tried searching too) what tires were used during testing to achieve 1.5g?



Hoosier A6

Jeff

[VD2021]

Gentlemen, let's keep the comments in line with our community charter. 4 posts deleted...

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3543-PLEASE-READ-Community-and-the-818-forum

:)

Thank you.

[Wayne Presley]

Hoosier A6

Jeff


Actually R6

[bbjones121]

! Think about it: 1.5 lateral G's. Man, I can't WAIT to feel that!

I can't wait either. I just wish I had my car lift already to fit a donor in my three car garage.

[Mechie3]

Stop, don't even try to understand why someone likes what they like. I'll never understand why some people like "thick" girls and they'll never understand why I like petite Asian girls.

This is too funny. I was actually going to write the exact same analogy as the understanding someones preferences. Even funnier considering my wife is of the "petite asian girl" type. :lol:

It's funny, the 818 thread on NASIOC recently blew up with this same topic. Then again, the fellow driving a lot of it (Hip2BeSquare) drives a miata and SVX that need replacing, hates every new car <$35k, doesn't want to spend >$25k, and wants a turbo, AWD, small, sport coupe with a manual transmission.

I posted this on NASIOC.

"Overall, I think the issue with the 818 can be summed up with this: People were hoping to get the performance AND looks of a $500k exotic for $10k. When they got the performance (easy to obtain) but not the looks, their hopes of a poor mans ferrari were dashed, and reality came back."

I truly think that's the problem. People saw amazing things in the contest and thought "I'm going to outdo daddy warbucks and his ferrari, and I'm going to do it for $10k".

[bbjones121]

That is why I am going to make mine look and sound like a racecar. If it can't look like an expensive exotic, than make it like an even more expensive race car. ;)

[Jeff Kleiner]

Actually R6

Duh! I knew that but typed A (autocrossing this weekend so I guess my head is programmed for A6 at the moment :))

Jeff

[DrieStone]

Well I guess this needs to be said again. Try not to take this as a negative,but as a positive. So I would like to encourage everybody to just hang in there and give the 818 some time, remember this is just the 1st generation of the 818. Look how the roadster, GTM, and coupe have come along over time.

That's the reason I still poke my head in here. I really want 818 to be a success, but I expected something different. I'm dissatisfied with the look of the current car, and I won't be getting one, but I'm still hopeful for the future. I love the platform, and I have faith in FFR. I know it will take some time (years) before we see variants or modifications to the body of the car.

[tirod]

Hopefully no one chastises me, but I think the Type 65 Coupe is terribly ugly, but I'm not going to go into their forum and start a thread saying so, because it's worthless to do so.

Well, I'm a Coupe guy, and can't possibly conceive why it would look ugly, but as a point of discussion on aesthetics, sure. It is very much the point - aesthetics. What one guy sees as beautiful is another's poison. It's what makes humans what they are.

Much of what the kit buyer perceives in a design is exactly what was already said - the industry copies a successful design. What too many don't ask is why? The biggest reason is that the shape already has exposure as having high social esteem. It's how the public rates it in the social pecking order. Taking design cues from social and competition "winners" is exactly why kits are built - to emulate the look and say "I have one, I'm a member of that club."

The basic emotional reasoning, bottom line, is that old testosterone drive, the locker room measuring contest. That's why you see the players on the court constantly trying to climb the social ladder to be the alpha male. It's also why the thread has so little aesthetic discussion - most of the players aren't skilled in the subject. Very few of us are actual auto body stylists or designers. Bluntly, a competent discussion of the styling and aesthetics can't be held.

So, "they shut down discussion" needed to be done. There wasn't really any.

Back to the Coupe, for instance. Love the design, but how much of it's style is simply my intellectual appreciation of it's ACCOMPLISHMENTS, vs. it's actual looks. Ok, to be fair, I don't like the windshield angle, the nose is a bit too low, it needs bigger tires on the fender wells than the ones used originally, the front fenders look bulbous from some views with narrow rubber - like the goofy fenders on Jags, overinflated, not trim. The rear concave area is too tall in my mind's eye, but lowering it and the angle would just about destroy the aerodynamics. Yes, aero does make cars look boring - but when you try to make them look different, you could get the same unintended consequence Audi got - a car that swaps ends at speed. Oops. Front end good, back end, bad.

The end result, looks mean little, it's really the performance, and that is why the roadster is a slug vs the Coupe being an FIA winner. Shelby American had no choice but to make the Coupe an "ugly" aero design with too small a nose and bulbous rear - it's not much different than the GTO in that regard, but OMG, go tell the owners that car is equally ugly. Not me either. It's really NOT the looks - it's the entire concept of the car as a whole, performance, wins, and reputation. The 818 doesn't have that - yet - but it will, the basic power to weight ratio and handling will prove out.

Another reason to quelch styling discussion - because it IS human nature to overlook it once the track record is shown. We DO appreciate a car for more than it's looks - the VW Beetle is the "elephant in the room" being ignored in a discussion of aesthetics and popularity. It's got style, but for all the opposite reasons in performance, and taking a world wide poll would likely show they could still be sold (and is exactly why VW brought back the look.)

I'm not going to take it personally if someone doesn't like the Coupe, a realistic, cold, hard look shows me why. You could do that with ANY car, the 66 Mustang has similar issues. Loved that one in the day, too - same as any kit owner, because it had the Shelby look and I could be associated with that. We buy cars as often not liking the looks as much as the reputation, and when the 818 has that nailed down, then I might move on to build one of those - mini GTM style.

Hmmm?

[Oppenheimer]

The intolerance for criticsm is, I think, over concern of damaging the 818's reputation outside this community. I think this is a legitimate concern. Imagine the first cars are done, and some mag like C&D does an eval. They are sure to comment on the looks. Do we really want to read them saying that 'even the guys on FFR's own online forum don't like the way the car looks'?

If FFR kept this under wraps till now, and we were just now hearing the details of the performance, the weight, the donor, the swatch-watch concept, track version & street version (with an MPG version to come), would we be as critical of the looks? I don't think so, especially knowing that this is just the first design, and Dave has big plans for other body styles down the road.

So while I normally think a community should be open and tolerant to dissenting views (so long as presented without malice), I think now is the time to hold back our comments on the looks. Especially since the initial design is past the point of changing. Lets let this thing hit the streets, the world at large to get a taste of it. Then when Dave is ramping up plans for the next design, we can all come back with our unrestrained comments on it.

[Silvertop]

The intolerance for criticsm is, I think, over concern of damaging the 818's reputation outside this community. I think this is a legitimate concern. Imagine the first cars are done, and some mag like C&D does an eval. They are sure to comment on the looks. Do we really want to read them saying that 'even the guys on FFR's own online forum don't like the way the car looks'?

If FFR kept this under wraps till now, and we were just now hearing the details of the performance, the weight, the donor, the swatch-watch concept, track version & street version (with an MPG version to come), would we be as critical of the looks? I don't think so, especially knowing that this is just the first design, and Dave has big plans for other body styles down the road.

So while I normally think a community should be open and tolerant to dissenting views (so long as presented without malice), I think now is the time to hold back our comments on the looks. Especially since the initial design is past the point of changing. Lets let this thing hit the streets, the world at large to get a taste of it. Then when Dave is ramping up plans for the next design, we can all come back with our unrestrained comments on it.

I'm with you.

And in any event, there are pages and pages and pages of criticism and commentary about the looks of this car embedded in the older forum threads. There really isn't much new that can be said about it. And as you point out, the die is cast, at least for this particular rendition. Critical input of styling would be better left for the next version. For what it's worth, some 170-odd enthusiasts apparently thought it looked good enough to plunk down their deposits before the car was even officially available. I'm one of them, and I look forward eagerly to the opportunity to build it, and drive it.

Personally, I think it will turn some heads............

[kach22i]

.......... maybe I'll figure out how to make my own body.
A former forum poster is doing exactly that with one of the exo-skeleton type cars. He's going to use welded conduit and fabric, it should be interesting to say the least.


Agreed. I was very surprised Shawn's designs did not gain more adherents. They were head and shoulders above all of the others I saw posted.
It's a very nice design, perhaps the most mature and developed in the contest, but I doubt wookies could ever fit in it, even if the seat were left out and they sat right on the floor.

Interesting that there is some design debate going on at this late stage in the game.

I will say that the FFR is not as bad as it could have been, but also not as good as it should have been. Not my car company, not my call.

[wleehendrick]

Personally, I think it will turn some heads............

I have a gallery of photos of the 818 and my donor parts on my phone to show people what I'm working on.

Every single person that's seen them has said "Wow!' Yes, the design may not live up the jaded expectations of those enthusiasts who followed the design competition and wanted something else, however, I'm sure it will be rare and striking enough on the road to get LOTS of attention and compliments.

[longislandwrx]

however, I'm sure it will be rare and striking enough on the road to get LOTS of attention and compliments.

Agreed. When my kit is assembled this fall, and it's the only one in NY... I think people are going to notice it. I think the performance will speak for itself and people are going to love it, As people have stated again and again, you need to see it in person.

[RM1SepEx]

Same here, no negative feedback from anyone based on photos and it looks mucho better in person

[BipDBo]

Personally, I'd like to see a body option be a replica of something like a VW 181 (Thing) Yugo, or a Ford Pinto. All the more fun when you leave that guy in the Vette choking on your tire smoke.

[David Hodgkins]

This is too funny. I was actually going to write the exact same analogy as the understanding someones preferences. Even funnier considering my wife is of the "petite asian girl" type. :lol:

It's funny, the 818 thread on NASIOC recently blew up with this same topic. Then again, the fellow driving a lot of it (Hip2BeSquare) drives a miata and SVX that need replacing, hates every new car <$35k, doesn't want to spend >$25k, and wants a turbo, AWD, small, sport coupe with a manual transmission.

I posted this on NASIOC.

"Overall, I think the issue with the 818 can be summed up with this: People were hoping to get the performance AND looks of a $500k exotic for $10k. When they got the performance (easy to obtain) but not the looks, their hopes of a poor mans ferrari were dashed, and reality came back."

I truly think that's the problem. People saw amazing things in the contest and thought "I'm going to outdo daddy warbucks and his ferrari, and I'm going to do it for $10k".

You got my curiosity up so I went over there and found the thread. Definitely a few "different" opinions! While checking out some of the main antagonist's other posts, I ran across this thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2495070

I haven't laughed so hard at a thread in quite some time! F.U.N.N.Y! There are some funny folks over there.

:)

[Rockraven]

I've followed the 818 project from day one with anticipation and excitement. When the (original) Schenck design was revealed, I felt unimpressed like most everyone else. Then Dave finally revealed the chosen design... a warmed over update to that design, the forum had to fall in line over threat of moratorium on further updates and reveals. I warmed up to the 818, and was considering making the deposit, but showing pics of the red car to friends, the general consensus is "looks like a 90's Japanese convertible". Definitely not HOF reactions. The 818 HAS TO sway my money from a pre-owned Boxster S for the equivalent investment, and it just isn't doing it... yet. I still have faith that I will buy an 818, but just not as I see it right now.

Speaking of Shawn Whetstone, apparently he had a hand in designing the gorgeous Bauer Ltd Catfish (stupid name, Lol).

[D2W]

A former forum poster is doing exactly that with one of the exo-skeleton type cars. He's going to use welded conduit and fabric, it should be interesting to say the least.

Is he posting his build somewhere? Sounds like an interesting project. PM me if you don't want to post it.

[David Hodgkins]

.../Speaking of Shawn Whetstone, apparently he had a hand in designing the gorgeous Bauer Ltd Catfish (stupid name, Lol).

Ahhh, the Catfish. An Excellent example of what I was talking about above, as it relates to design vs reality in renderings and physical scale. I saw the Bauer Ltd Catfish at SEMA. The 818 is light years ahead of that design; in fit, finish and engineering it's in a completely different class as it relates to the physical build.

But the realization of the rendering it where it really shines, IMO. The Catfish is the opposite of the 818. Looks good in renderings, kinda, sorta (I guess) cool in pics, and not nearly so in person. It's a good case study for why FFR did 1/4 size models of several designs before committing to a full size mockup of a 2 or 3D rendering. Sometimes, what looks good on a screen or on paper doesn't translate to a tangible object.

Shawns' very nice rendering:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16773&d=1366322787

Realized build:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tUzgRTHZ_yw/UK88ns5oMqI/AAAAAAAAs3Q/pMuFT6oNiO8/s1600/bilde.jpg

[RM1SepEx]

Yup, I went down there after the models were shown... I loved Xabier's, UNTIL I saw it in 1/4 scale up close! Remember this shot...

So... we get the best damn looks that they could within the mfg capabilities to get no paint capability all for $10K. Trust in the progression of their products... They are making choices and they are doing the best that they can balancing those compromises. They partnered with great people and companies to develop this little beasty. Working to develop the chassis on the track, more info for us and a better kit. We get them and can do ANYTHING that we want to make it our own.

Make your own body if you don't like theirs...

Life is good

[thestigwins]

I believe the catfish was a little rushed to SEMA like most cars. I spent a good amount of time looking at it and found it to be a pretty cool looking car. I think it was just a little too plain with the interior and single roll bar. I wouldn't go so far as to say it as bad looking at all. It just needed a windsheild and a different style of roll hoop. That being said, the 818 did look pretty nice and even though the interior was very generic and bland it still looked like a well thought out car. I would be happy to own the catfish or the 818 and like different aspects of each of them.

A teaser shot of both from my cellphone at SEMA
16775
16776

[Mechie3]

I'm amused...

This thread is about the 818 being hit with the ugly stick and when I click that red thumbnail above all I can think is "man...that looks pretty sweet, can't wait until July 20th!!!".

[kemo]

i like it, i want it, nuff said!

[Flamshackle]

I'm amused...

This thread is about the 818 being hit with the ugly stick and when I click that red thumbnail above all I can think is "man...that looks pretty sweet"...

Agreed, the front could do with a change for sure but it does look real nice

[bnr32jason]

I love the side profile, looks outstanding from that angle. Rear is growing on me too, just have to route the exhaust through exits on either side of the license plate.

Oh and just my opinion here, but the stock Subaru mirrors look terrible on the 818, it really needs some more aggressively styled side mirrors. Something like Ganador style or Craft Square.



Does anyone know how to download the gallery photos from the Factory Five website in full resolution? They look great but the website disables right clicking.

[longislandwrx]

https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/

browse to the right directory and download away.

[joecamire]

In person the cars look AWESOME!!!!!!!

[Gus]

Speaking of ugly stick, SUBARU has a pretty effective one!

WRX 2015 concept vs WRX 2015 spy shot @ nurburgring

16786 VS 16787

[veloce2]

I think what Factory Five should do is open up the the design again after one year for three new versions, and have a multiple of choices.

Something along the line of a Retro- Modern and coupe. If you want to sell units this is how you do it.

Why should the design be locked in to one compromise

[veloce2]

Speaking of ugly stick, SUBARU has a pretty effective one!

WRX 2015 concept vs WRX 2015 spy shot @ nurburgring

16786 VS 16787

Yea thats ugly

[Movieman]

I think what Factory Five should do is open up the the design again after one year for three new versions, and have a multiple of choices.

Something along the line of a Retro- Modern and coupe. If you want to sell units this is how you do it.

Why should the design be locked in to one compromise
Perhaps because they will want to recoup some of the R+D money they've spent to date.
Remember, FFR isn't a GM or Ford sized company and what they need right now is sales and lots of them to get back in the black on this part of their business.
Now your ideas have merit but I think only after FFR has sole 1000+ ?? units of the current design..

[shinn497]

I think what Factory Five should do is open up the the design again after one year for three new versions, and have a multiple of choices.

Something along the line of a Retro- Modern and coupe. If you want to sell units this is how you do it.

Why should the design be locked in to one compromise

I think that FFR should replace the car and not worry what we think. It is already backordered to 2015 ><. There is demand for the current design. Anyway, I don't care, by the time I save up they will probably be on mk II anyway. ><

#beingabrokegradstudent

[bnr32jason]

I would like to see some GT3 styling cues added to the 818s. I know it's a roadster, but something like an aggressive rear diffuser and spoiler (similar to the 818R one but lower).

If they don't have any options by the time I take delivery next April I'll probably try to make a diffuser from another car work.

Something like this combined with a high exit exhaust

http://www.gtrblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/r35_diffuser_11.jpg

Then for the front I would like to see a complete different bumper option, but I can live with it until they do come out with something else.

[veloce2]

Perhaps because they will want to recoup some of the R+D money they've spent to date.
Remember, FFR isn't a GM or Ford sized company and what they need right now is sales and lots of them to get back in the black on this part of their business.
Now your ideas have merit but I think only after FFR has sole 1000+ ?? units of the current design..

Agreed but to start the new design contest costs zilch

[veloce2]

I think that FFR should replace the car and not worry what we think. It is already backordered to 2015 ><. There is demand for the current design. Anyway, I don't care, by the time I save up they will probably be on mk II anyway. ><

#beingabrokegradstudent

And that is a problem from customer satisfaction standpoint, decisions have to be made when you have back log like that. People get tired of waiting and go elsewhere or competition comes to fill the void. I can say this was the case for me and I put a deposit on a Ultima. Wil still build the 818 but now it's on the back burner.

[Wayne Presley]

Agreed but to start the new design contest costs zilch

Zilch???? How many hours of web work, processing entries do you think were put into the first contest? If it was less than 200 I'd be shocked. Average skilled employee costs the employer over $35/hour or $7000. Just saying...

[bwwooster]

I think it looks good, too, but dang! I wish it could accept an engine that doesn't sound like a Vanagon with a misfire.

[flynntuna]

Zilch???? How many hours of web work, processing entries do you think were put into the first contest? If it was less than 200 I'd be shocked. Average skilled employee costs the employer over $35/hour or $7000. Just saying...

+1 , and the contest had so many different variations and community comments on those ideas that IMHO the good folks at FFR have real good handle on what the community wants. The hard part is deciding what will work with this frame, look good and sell all at the same time. I for one trust their instincts and judgement in this business, only time will tell how this will evolve.

[Silvertop]

Zilch???? How many hours of web work, processing entries do you think were put into the first contest? If it was less than 200 I'd be shocked. Average skilled employee costs the employer over $35/hour or $7000. Just saying...

What you said........ But the contest did have value. It turned out to be a great PR tool, and I believe that the ultimate in-house design that was selected was influenced by some of the contest designs, most notably by the Xabier and perhaps the Nouphone as well. But it had to have cost money, as you note above. And don't forget the costs of the 1/4 scale models. That had to have been significant. Also, the contest seems to have initiated and fed what has turned out to be incessant quibbling among members of this forum, which FFR might not find to be a desirable outcome.

I really have no idea whether the promised 818 "swatch-watch" versions that may come a year or two down the road, specifically the 818 coupe (V.3 ?) or the 818 eco (V.4 ?) will be variations of the existing body, or whether they will be entirely new shapes designed to fit over the same basic chassis. But I'll bet the mortgage they won't come from a contest. I just don't see that happening. They could employ more of the design cues from one or more of the previous contest contributors, or even direct input. But that is speculation. Ultimately, FFR will proceed based on what best fits their business model. Just my .02
.

[Silvertop]

I think it looks good, too, but dang! I wish it could accept an engine that doesn't sound like a Vanagon with a misfire.

A nice set of equal-length headers will solve the "misfire". Though there are a lot of folks who like that Vanagon Misfire sound They call it the Boxer Rumble. Mine won't have it though. (Techworks Ceramic Coated EL headers)

[bwwooster]

A nice set of equal-length headers will solve the "misfire". Though there are a lot of folks who like that Vanagon Misfire sound They call it the Boxer Rumble. Mine won't have it though. (Techworks Ceramic Coated EL headers)

Has anybody looked into using the flat-6 from an XT or SVX? Hmmm...

Hijack complete.

[Silvertop]

Has anybody looked into using the flat-6 from an XT or SVX? Hmmm...

Hijack complete.

Dig your way back through some of the older threads. There is lots of discussion about using the flat six, and at least one thread devoted exclusively to it. Have fun!

[Matty_STi]

Has anybody looked into using the flat-6 from an XT or SVX? Hmmm...

Hijack complete.

not a great idea, and no real reason too.. you want power talk to some of the engine builders on nasioc and you can get 1000+ if you wanted. and it will be lighter than any of h6's. unless you want like 1200hp or 800hp and crazy quick spool..

my educated thoughts at least.

[Silvertop]

not a great idea, and no real reason too.. you want power talk to some of the engine builders on nasioc and you can get 1000+ if you wanted. and it will be lighter than any of h6's. unless you want like 1200hp or 800hp and crazy quick spool..

my educated thoughts at least.

I think the appeal would be to the guy who didn't want to spend great sacks of money on tricking out a 4 cylinder -- someone looking for about 250 reliable NA horsepower with a broad and consistent torque curve. The ideal situation for a pure streeter........... The primary issue is space availability in the engine bay. General consensus is that there is not enough.

There are better threads to conduct this conversation though.

[kach22i]

I'd hate to say anything too nice about the FFR, but they did a fair job considering their resources.

If you really want to see what beaten with an ugly stick actually looks like then look below - they are no longer in business (thank goodness).

http://www.kitcarlist.com/discontinued.html
16796

Blast Automotive
Alan Ferguson
California
(530) 575-6878
www.blastautomotive.com
Blast has a 2.2 litre turbo-charged Subaru donor, 2WD mid-engine design

http://www.diseno-art.com/encyclopedia/vehicles/road/cars/blast_automotive_blast.html
16797
16798

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/can-we-please-stop-hotlinking-pics/20411/page284/
16799

[AMW1011]

Its a sore subject because I think it was handled poorly by Dave and FFR. I understand their position, and that there really wasn't much they could do. However the threat of shutting down information and community interaction was very, very poor. All he really had to do was talk it through, emphasize the performance, the modular body panels, the fact that "They don't sell cars, they sell projects", and offer up suggestions for customizing the kit to the taste of the buyer.

I love the sides and the rear of the 818, but I honestly hate the front end. The front "bumper" looks awful to me and I hate the Camry lights. But you know what? I can fix that. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to make and replace those body panels, thanks to the body panels being modular, and I can simply put in different lights. I can have any headlights I want, I just need to have the right panels made with the correct shaped and sized cut-outs. Yeah its added cost, but the damn thing performs like a super-car for under $20k. That is what FFR needed to emphasize imo.

[bnr32jason]

How would you go about designing a whole new bumper, hood (frunk), and fenders to match up with the new headlights in a cost effective way?

I can work with fiberglass and carbon fiber decently well, but the biggest part I've made is a little gauge pod. Seems like it would be a huge expense to get new body panels made.

I suppose one option would be to modify the existing body panels, but even that is going to be a ton of labor.

I'm curious, what headlights would you use?

[bigAl]

http://www.rallylights.com/detail.aspx?ID=4924

These look pretty good, combining the high and low beams in a single DOT approved compact unit. For the parking/turn/running lamps there are several choices.

[AMW1011]

How would you go about designing a whole new bumper, hood (frunk), and fenders to match up with the new headlights in a cost effective way?

I can work with fiberglass and carbon fiber decently well, but the biggest part I've made is a little gauge pod. Seems like it would be a huge expense to get new body panels made.

I suppose one option would be to modify the existing body panels, but even that is going to be a ton of labor.

I'm curious, what headlights would you use?

It will all depend on exactly how the front pieces are modulated. I don't think there really is any "cost efficient" way, the custom work will likely cost a lot, but the price of the kit is low enough that it will still be the best at the price range. I can't be sure on exactly what I'm going to have replaced until I see the parts and how they fit together. I also have the luxury of likely being a second gen. buyer.

To be more accurate. I'm not looking to drastically alter the shape or lines of the front end, I believe the lines are actually quite good. However, I don't think the headlights work with the shape of the front end at all, and the front lip is far too busy and looks to me like a cheap ebay body kit piece for a honda.

[kach22i]

How would you go about designing a whole new bumper, hood (frunk), and fenders to match up with the new headlights in a cost effective way?..............but even that is going to be a ton of labor
No easy way, lots of nip & tuck and it can be done.


I'm curious, what headlights would you use?
I don't like the idea of round holes without covers as bigAl posted, maybe he can elaborate some.

I did a study using Mazda 6 headlights which came out very nice. I'd want to double check the scale to be sure, but it was a step in the right direction if you ask me.

[metalmaker12]

I think anyone who thinks the 818 is ugly, needs help, in person it is very nice to look at, the pictures do not do it justice. It does need staggered wheels on like on the 818r, but with that and the low ride height it looks damn good. I am a hard guy to impress, but it caught my eye, and is very cool.

[bnr32jason]

I haven't seen any official dimensions posted. In person, does the 818s have that supercar stance? So low, wide, and long? Or is it more similar to a newer generation Miata?

[kach22i]

I haven't seen any official dimensions posted. In person, does the 818s have that supercar stance? So low, wide, and long? Or is it more similar to a newer generation Miata?
They stretched it out in the video to make it look lower.

Here:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/content.php?253-818

Photo Galleries are here (not all stretched out):
https://www.factoryfive.com/galleries/project-818/

Looks more S-2000 than Miata to my eyes.

[AMW1011]

No easy way, lots of nip & tuck and it can be done.


I don't like the idea of round holes without covers as bigAl posted, maybe he can elaborate some.

I did a study using Mazda 6 headlights which came out very nice. I'd want to double check the scale to be sure, but it was a step in the right direct if you ask me.

The third one is similar to what I have in mind. Smaller more form fitting headlights, perhaps like the ones on the Lotus Evora, and a more subtle/organic front lip that somewhat mirrors the contours of the rear bumper. Its amazing how good that one looks with such minor changes. Goes to show just how much of the car actually is quite beautiful. All this custom work will easily cost thousands, but I'm hoping it won't be too unreasonable.

[Rockraven]

I think anyone who thinks the 818 is ugly, needs help, in person it is very nice to look at, the pictures do not do it justice. It does need staggered wheels on like on the 818r, but with that and the low ride height it looks damn good. I am a hard guy to impress, but it caught my eye, and is very cool.

I wouldn't call it ugly. As AMW stated, the side profile and rear end are spot-on. The front end (to me) looks dated and awkward, like something designed in 1994. It's not ugly, but definitely not HOF either.

[Rockraven]

No easy way, lots of nip & tuck and it can be done.


I don't like the idea of round holes without covers as bigAl posted, maybe he can elaborate some.

I did a study using Mazda 6 headlights which came out very nice. I'd want to double check the scale to be sure, but it was a step in the right direct if you ask me.

Man, I love the Vman front end.

[metalmaker12]

This has all been talked about and beaten with a stick, fact is FFR is building the kit, it is going to look much like the prototype, and that is it. We can say man I love that, or wow that is cool, but we are not influencing it at all. if you want something different, change it, or go buy something different, but don't come on this forum and bash it with your negative opinions.

The car looks great, it is not ugly, and has a hefty preorder list, which means many people agree with me. We can not all be blind, or have no taste. The front does not look like a 90's car, it is it's own style, it sits like a lotus or a dropped s2000, but is is cooler than both because of it's overall design and the fact you know it's got the goods to. I love it and great job FFR

[bnr32jason]

As far as changing headlights goes, I think you guys need to be careful to not pick something that is on another popular sports car. Then we would end up in "identity crisis mode" in my opinion. The Camry, while a very popular car, is not one that is typically paid attention to. For a long time I thought the headlights were unique, I didn't even realize they were from a Camry until I saw someone mention it on a forum. But had those lights been from a Audi A4, S2000, BMW, etc, etc, I would have noticed immediately.

I do wish they would have come up with their own design, but I'm sure that would have added significant cost to the kit. I do think the looks can be improved by changing the headlights out for aftermarket Camry lights such as these:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzUwWDc1MA==/z/yyQAAMXQxzZRcydv/$T2eC16VHJGgFFmy-6BzRBRcydvsYl!~~60_12.JPG?set_id=880000500F

But then we run into the issue of questionable quality eBay lights.

[Mechie3]

^That's similar to a set I plan to get but retrofit with quality HID projector/lens assembly.

[carbon fiber]

i don't like it, but i didn't like the gtm body either, and i'm redoing it. someone will probably make some aftermarket parts for the 818 as well. those who like it can leave it alone, and those who don't can modify it. no big deal. the design contest was probably a bad idea, since none of the designs influence made it to the actual car. that being said, it's still a good deal. that's what's cool about these type of kits, that you can personalize 'em. be glad that they're making it in fiberglass because it's easy to modify if you want.

[bnr32jason]

^That's similar to a set I plan to get but retrofit with quality HID projector/lens assembly.

I want to do it as well, but I have to see how much money I left in my budget.

[David Hodgkins]

Has anyone else noticed that it's been 4 days since the OP posted to this thread?

[Mechie3]

Has anyone else noticed that it's been 4 days since the OP posted to this thread?

Nah, I didn't care about the OP anyways. Lol

[carbon fiber]

lots of other people had something to say.

[jetsbaby]

I am guessing that most people have not seen the 818 in person..I personally have seen both the street and the race version since I attended SEMA.. In my opinion, which I am in titled to. The 818 looks exactly like a Honda S2000 and I am sure when there are several on the road most people will think exactly that..The look of the car was not a selling point for me BUT I am more of a function over form guy. When I saw the frame of the 818 also at SEMA I would not feel safe in riding in a car with the main structural support was made of one by one square tubing.. This is coming from a person that owns two F5..A coupe and a roadster. The main selling point of the 818 is the low cost..But what price will you pay if involved in an accident..I personally think it will be dearly.

[bnr32jason]

Interesting. I have not seen it in person, but I wouldn't think it would be that unsafe. Can't be any worse than something like a Ariel Atom or other exoskeleton cars.

[AMW1011]

This has all been talked about and beaten with a stick, fact is FFR is building the kit, it is going to look much like the prototype, and that is it. We can say man I love that, or wow that is cool, but we are not influencing it at all. if you want something different, change it, or go buy something different, but don't come on this forum and bash it with your negative opinions.

The car looks great, it is not ugly, and has a hefty preorder list, which means many people agree with me. We can not all be blind, or have no taste. The front does not look like a 90's car, it is it's own style, it sits like a lotus or a dropped s2000, but is is cooler than both because of it's overall design and the fact you know it's got the goods to. I love it and great job FFR

A lot of people like it, but please don't shut down discussion of the looks of the car. You said it yourself, if you don't like it change it, that's the point of a kit car. However if any mention of not liking the looks of the stock kit or discussion of modifying body panels to suite taste turn into something like this thread, then all your doing is limiting the potential of this project. A lot of people have preordered, yes, but how many haven't because they don't like the way it looks? Having threads on the build and/or discussion of body modifications on the official forums will help demonstrate this point and can only bring in more buyers.

[jetsbaby]

Interesting. I have not seen it in person, but I wouldn't think it would be that unsafe. Can't be any worse than something like a Ariel Atom or other exoskeleton cars.

I personally feel safer in a Ariel Atom than 818 if I was only given the choice of the two.. I have seen the Atom in person also.

[PhyrraM]

Just from looks, and a slightly educated guess, as long as your head doesn't contact anything the exo-cars look a bit safer because most of them use 2 very large frame tubes at a height that is on-average higher than the 818's much smaller tubes.

The 818 looks very close to the Hot Rod and GTR in basic design theory. How are those surviving various types of crashes?

[Mechie3]

When I saw the frame of the 818 also at SEMA I would not feel safe in riding in a car with the main structural support was made of one by one square tubing.. This is coming from a person that owns two F5..A coupe and a roadster. The main selling point of the 818 is the low cost..But what price will you pay if involved in an accident..I personally think it will be dearly.

For same size cross sections of round and square tubing, the square tubing is stronger. The downside is that it's also heavier. I didn't feel like doing the math myself, so found someone that had already done it. Square tubing is also much easier to layout, cut, and assemble. The reason high end cars don't use square isn't because it isn't safe, but because it looks cheaper (because it is less expensive all around) but round tubing is better optimized for strength/weight (and thus a lower overall weight).


http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/aircraft-design-aerodynamics-new-technology/3372-round-vs-square-tube-strength.html
"The round tube wins on a pound for pound basis, usually. Take as an example a freely supported column of 3/4" x 065 tubing , 36" long, and the 3/4" x 065 round, also 36" long"

Used as a strut the square tube will support about 1066 lbs before buckling, the round 625 Lbs.

Support the same tubes at the ends and the square one will support 73 lbs hung form the center before failing and the round will support about 42 lbs (in reality of course other factors come in such as local buckling etc, I'll ignore these for this example).

In shear, the sqaure will take a load of 4800 lbs and the round 3775 although tubes like this are of course rarely used in pure shear.

Torsionally the square is about 30% stronger , but it also about 30% heavier.

So in column loading and in bending the square will take 1.7 times the load of the round tubing, for this example.

You have to look at it case by case, but for a typical fuselage truss square tubing will be heavier than round if both are optimised. Also long struts such a lift struts will be lighter as round tubing.

That is not to say the advantage of ease of manufacturing of the square stuff are always outweighed by the weight increase. A lot of old British aircraft used high strength square steel tubing in their fusleages, for example. Simple to put together (since you couldn't weld the stuff) with flat gussets and rivets/bolts.

"

[metalmaker12]

Yes, i agree discussion is good, but to start off "beat with an ugly stick" is not a good way to do it. All for innovation, but to just start a new thread that bashes what FFR has done on there forum is a disgrace to the hobby. No class

On safety, the 818 looks to be as safe as any of there other cars, I closely compaired all the frames and the square tubing is stronger, plus they did countless strength test on this frame, more than ever before. We're in good hands

[Movieman]

Has anyone else noticed that it's been 4 days since the OP posted to this thread?

Maybe he realised that the who that was being beaten with the ugly stick wasn't the car but himself?
Seriously,the car, any car, is always going to be different than any single person can imagine it and whether it sets your HOF, makes you go OOOH! or makes you go oh well is always going to happen.
Now to me personally I like the 818S but the 818R makes me want to do one for the street..:D
Yea, I think the 818R is slicker than puppy doo as we used to say..just plain says 'You belong in this seat!" :D

[jetsbaby]

For same size cross sections of round and square tubing, the square tubing is stronger. The downside is that it's also heavier. I didn't feel like doing the math myself, so found someone that had already done it. Square tubing is also much easier to layout, cut, and assemble. The reason high end cars don't use square isn't because it isn't safe, but because it looks cheaper (because it is less expensive all around) but round tubing is better optimized for strength/weight (and thus a lower overall weight).


http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/aircraft-design-aerodynamics-new-technology/3372-round-vs-square-tube-strength.html
"The round tube wins on a pound for pound basis, usually. Take as an example a freely supported column of 3/4" x 065 tubing , 36" long, and the 3/4" x 065 round, also 36" long"

Used as a strut the square tube will support about 1066 lbs before buckling, the round 625 Lbs.

Support the same tubes at the ends and the square one will support 73 lbs hung form the center before failing and the round will support about 42 lbs (in reality of course other factors come in such as local buckling etc, I'll ignore these for this example).

In shear, the sqaure will take a load of 4800 lbs and the round 3775 although tubes like this are of course rarely used in pure shear.

Torsionally the square is about 30% stronger , but it also about 30% heavier.

So in column loading and in bending the square will take 1.7 times the load of the round tubing, for this example.

You have to look at it case by case, but for a typical fuselage truss square tubing will be heavier than round if both are optimised. Also long struts such a lift struts will be lighter as round tubing.

That is not to say the advantage of ease of manufacturing of the square stuff are always outweighed by the weight increase. A lot of old British aircraft used high strength square steel tubing in their fusleages, for example. Simple to put together (since you couldn't weld the stuff) with flat gussets and rivets/bolts.

"

Have you ever seen the 818 frame in person? Just because it works in CAD, or what ever "works" program it may not react like it does in the program..I personally am opting out of the 818 program.. Who wants to drive a Honda S2000 kit car. Not me!

[Silvertop]

Have you ever seen the 818 frame in person? Just because it works in CAD, or what ever "works" program it may not react like it does in the program..I personally am opting out of the 818 program.. Who wants to drive a Honda S2000 kit car. Not me!

Well, to each his own.

But outside of a similarity in shape from the front wheel wells forward, the two cars do not really look all that much alike. And engineering-wise, they are totally different animals. The Honda is front engined (front-mid technically), and 818 is mid-rear. I don't think too many folks are going to get them mixed up.

I hope you find something more to your liking.

[veloce2]

Zilch???? How many hours of web work, processing entries do you think were put into the first contest? If it was less than 200 I'd be shocked. Average skilled employee costs the employer over $35/hour or $7000. Just saying...

7000.00 in the car world is Zilch. All I can say is that they have a lot of orders for that ugly car LOL. However this is a good topic to discuss, is the popularity of the car because of looks or that it is Subaru based? I think it's the later, once other companies see how great the demand is there will be competition, and FFR knows this. So what will be interesting is to see what FFR does with their shooting star?

[bnr32jason]

I can't speak for everyone, but the car being Subaru based had nothing to do with my decision to purchase.

I purchased it based on (in this order) 1) Looks 2) Price 3) Performance

[Xusia]

If anything, being Subaru based pre-disposed me to NOT liking the car. Nothing personal, Subaru friends; just that the rally/boy-racer look & sound isn't my thing.

I can't prioritize looks, price, & performance - They are all important. I go more by a minimum standard in each, and a "let down" in any one area would cause me to pass. Fortunately, the 818 exceeds my standards in all areas, so I literally can't wait to build one. DESPITE it being based on Subaru running gear! LOL :)

[PhyrraM]

I can't speak for everyone, but the car being Subaru based had nothing to do with my decision to purchase.

I purchased it based on (in this order) 1) Looks 2) Price 3) Performance

I'm the opposite. I was on board early simply because it was a Subaru based mid engine light-weight car. I eventually fell off because it ended up looking like a production car - Which, I guess, could be a compliment.

[Mechie3]

Have you ever seen the 818 frame in person? Just because it works in CAD, or what ever "works" program it may not react like it does in the program..I personally am opting out of the 818 program.. Who wants to drive a Honda S2000 kit car. Not me!

No I haven't seen it in person. I wasn't commenting on the actual design and layout of the frame itself, just the implied comment that square tubing is somehow unsafe compared to round tubing. Take two line element frame designs and build one with roudn tubing and one with the same size square tubing (ie 1" dia and 1"x1" square) and the square one, while not as pretty, will be stronger (and heavier).

Of course you can built a round tube frame with 1000 pieces and have it be bullet proof and have a 3 piece square frame that can't hold it's own weight. Plus, your FEA is only as good as your setup. Mesh too large, poor assumptions, bad restraints, inexperience with FEA and just poor analysis can all result in different results. Even running the exact same program twice will give slightly different results.

<--Does FEA (and other stuff) for a living.

[bnr32jason]

I'm the opposite. I was on board early simply because it was a Subaru based mid engine light-weight car. I eventually fell off because it ended up looking like a production car - Which, I guess, could be a compliment.

What were you hoping it would look like? More like what you have in your avatar picture?

I love the fact that it looks fairly unassuming, I don't want it to scream out "look at me!" I don't want the attention everywhere I go, I've already dealt with that enough with my dad's old Ferrari 512bb and 328.

[Mechie3]

I've already dealt with that enough with my dad's old Ferrari 512bb and 328.

http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/vN2WzQzxuoA/hqdefault.jpg



;) I could use some problems like that. lol

[longislandwrx]

just spit coffee out.


:rolleyes:

[Niburu]

If the 818 gets mistaken for a S2000 I would take that as a compliment.

From what I've seen thus far I don't think you could call the car ugly, it's particularly pretty or HOF, but it's cetainly not ugly.
Also with the caveat that I've not seen the car in person either.

I'm interested in the car but I'm going to hold out for either a coupe or targa.
I'm hoping that this future itteration will have a signifigantly different look to it, optional body panels, or some third party body manufacturers show up.

If not, NSX prices continue to drop slowly.

[bnr32jason]

;) I could use some problems like that. lol

Haha, yeah I guess it's not such a bad problem. It's cool getting the attention the first few times, but it gets old quick getting bothered at every gas station and other stop we made.

I think the 818 even looking as "pedestrian" as it does will still get a decent amount of attention just because it's something that most people will have never seen before. I just hope it's not TOO much.

[PhyrraM]

What were you hoping it would look like? More like what you have in your avatar picture?.....

I wanted something that FFR could pull off. They have a long history of success with retro-ish and I think they could have pulled off something like Scott Bradford's quasi-retro racer (the avatar) quite well. I also liked Marc Senger's designs a lot, among others. I'm a fit and finish guy, and making an OEMish design, like they have, is bound to let me down when I get close and see all the compromises that have been made to accommodate the budget and medium. I think FFR could have chosen a style of design that works better with the limitations of fiberglass or plastic panels. For example, just from pictures I am not keen on the front edge of the door - which was stated needed to be there because of the way they trim the panels, and the exposed screw heads on the taillights. I just feel that they could have chosen a 'type of styling' where these limitations actually worked FOR the overall effect instead of against it.

I think the choice to style with larger than stock WRX wheels was wrong. Because of the proportion of unsprung weight best performance would be with smaller, lighter wheels and tires.

I also can't understand why it's so heavy (relatively), the Lotus Europa with a cast iron engine and gearbox is 200 pounds lighter. (I know, minor complaint)

Of course, I'm fully willing (maybe even hoping) to change my opinion when I see a completed, production 818 in person. I can currently only go off of what I have seen here on these forums.

[BipDBo]

I am guessing that most people have not seen the 818 in person..I personally have seen both the street and the race version since I attended SEMA.. In my opinion, which I am in titled to. The 818 looks exactly like a Honda S2000 and I am sure when there are several on the road most people will think exactly that..The look of the car was not a selling point for me BUT I am more of a function over form guy. When I saw the frame of the 818 also at SEMA I would not feel safe in riding in a car with the main structural support was made of one by one square tubing.. This is coming from a person that owns two F5..A coupe and a roadster. The main selling point of the 818 is the low cost..But what price will you pay if involved in an accident..I personally think it will be dearly.

I assume that you are talking about the road going version. The 818R looks pretty robust and safe (atleast for a roadster) to me. Granted, I have not yet seen it in person. I have worried from the start about the safety of this car, since it is so lightweight, without a full cage structure and with the mass of the drivetrain behind the driver. I look forward to a coupe model for both safety and since I live in Florida, weatherability.

[Niburu]

I also can't understand why it's so heavy (relatively), the Lotus Europa with a cast iron engine and gearbox is 200 pounds lighter. (I know, minor complaint)


the most current Europa weighs more than the 818 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Europa_S
and is pretty much on par weight wise with the Elise

[PhyrraM]

the most current Europa weighs more than the 818 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Europa_S
and is pretty much on par weight wise with the Elise

I was referring to the original Europa. The original Europa is very close to the 818 is basic philosophy - Off the shelf, longitudinal, FWD running gear modified for mid-engined use. Steel frame under a fiberglass body. Re-purposed OEM parts for as many items as practical. The major difference is the frame style, backbone vs. spaceframe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Europa

[bbjones121]

I'm the opposite. I was on board early simply because it was a Subaru based mid engine light-weight car. I eventually fell off because it ended up looking like a production car - Which, I guess, could be a compliment.

The Subaru aspect is huge for people. Lower center of gravity lots of aftermarket support. Not to mention all those idiots who take them off road to rally them and roll them. They are abundant and cheap.

[RM1SepEx]

I have a friend with 2 Europas.. compared to the 818 they are a death trap. Just an old, light kit car... cardboard and fiberglass is all that is between you and another cars bumpers... I have a 69 Saab Sonett... same thing no strength at all and less than 1/2 the power. Both have poor chassis rigidity compared to a new space frame with riveted panels. Both of these "classics" are dated and awkward styling wise. Technology has come a long way in 45 years

If you don't like how the 818 looks, buy something else. Why come here and bit** about it? This thread is offensive and serves little to no purpose.

Looks like an S2000??? someone needs glasses, front mid engine vs mid engine, proportions are all wrong

[PhyrraM]

I have a friend with 2 Europas.. compared to the 818 they are a death trap. ......If you don't like how the 818 looks, buy something else. Why come here and bit** about it? This thread is offensive and serves little to no purpose.

Looks like an S2000??? someone needs glasses, front mid engine vs mid engine, proportions are all wrong

I was asked a question on my thoughts, and answered. There was no *****ing. There wasn't any comment I made on the actual styling of the 818, only the general type of styling (especially compared all the other FFR cars, with 'retro' styling)

[07FIREBLADE]

Can we just stop, this thread is pointless. The first generation is coming out in a few months. Im waiting for a coupe or a hard top option. But I'm already committed in getting a 818. Just depends on which body I go with. Bought my donor already.

[Vman7]

Well I guess this needs to be said again. Try not to take this as a negative,but as a positive. So I would like to encourage everybody to just hang in there and give the 818 some time, remember this is just the 1st generation of the 818. Look how the roadster, GTM, and coupe have come along over time.

The 818 for the price point that FFR is trying to reach, the 818 is extremely well done. The possible potential the 818 is really for a better lack of words is unlimited. Body panel changes for different looks etc., drivetrain changes etc., I could go on and on. Plus after FFR came out with some performance numbers, which by the way was a WOW factor in itself!

Now does the 818 have a wow factor, depends on how people look at it, for some it may be the looks, performance, or maybe just ok in looks, but they see potential for future things like body panel changes etc.

So again I would like to just encourage everybody just to stay postive about everything and remember how well FFR has done everything so far on all the cars they have done so far. Plus look at the community here, where else can you find such a great commmunity for kit/replica cars as the Factory Five ones.

David

Thought I would just repeat this again.

[bbjones121]

+1.

[AZPete]

flying phoenix has only one post. Don't let him get traction here. Just ignore.

That's what I wrote back on page #1 . . . I wish we could have just ignored him.

[Silvertop]

That's what I wrote back on page #1 . . . I wish we could have just ignored him.

Unfortunately, this thread kind of took on a life of its own. The OP bailed out a hundred posts and five days ago. But the p****ing contest rolled happily along on its own inertia after that. I think it's about done though..............:)

[Jeff Kleiner]

...The OP bailed out a hundred posts and five days ago...

Which was totally predictable. I'll just leave this right here:


In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Jeff

[bnr32jason]

I don't see the big deal. Sure the thread started as trolling, but I think we had some halfway decent discussions in the midst of all the garbage.

[shim2]

The Honda is front engined (front-mid technically), and 818 is mid-rear. I don't think too many folks are going to get them mixed up.

I have to disagree. So many people mistake an MK2 MR2 for a Ford Probe. One is mid engine and one is front engine. Completely different animals as you put it but still, people commonly mistake the probe for a 91-95 MR2.

[bnr32jason]

But there is a reason for that:

Probe:
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/960/1041/39898020323_large.jpg

MR2
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Toyota_mr2_sw20_front_lights.jpg


They look A LOT alike from a rear view mirror or oncoming traffic perspective.




Now the S2000:
http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/2009-honda-s2000-2-door-convertible-front-exterior-view_100243349_l.jpg


FF 818:
https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/DSC_9234.jpg




I'm not seeing enough similarities to where even someone completely oblivious to cars would mistake the two in their rear view mirror.

[Oppenheimer]

It won't get mistaken for an S2000. I have an S2000, and it gets mistaken for everything BUT an S2000, since no one knows what an S2000 is.

My point is, anyone that knows what an S2000 is, is going to know enough about cars to be able to tell the 818 is something different. Anyone that thinks any wedge shaped car is a Ferrari, doesn't know what an S2000 is, so won't mistake an 818 for one.

[bnr32jason]

You know, the more that I look at the picture the more that I think the front bumper would look so much better if it didn't raise up in the bottom-middle and just stayed flat across and then opened up the "mouth" a little bit, just like the S2000. It's funny little lifted chin thing is what bugs me the most about the 818.

[mattster03]

Now the S2000:
http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/2009-honda-s2000-2-door-convertible-front-exterior-view_100243349_l.jpg


FF 818:
https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/DSC_9234.jpg




I'm not seeing enough similarities to where even someone completely oblivious to cars would mistake the two in their rear view mirror.

Not sure if serious...

I too have seen this car in person at SEMA and it looks just like an S2000 in my personal opinion.

[Xusia]

It won't get mistaken for an S2000. I have an S2000, and it gets mistaken for everything BUT an S2000, since no one knows what an S2000 is.

My point is, anyone that knows what an S2000 is, is going to know enough about cars to be able to tell the 818 is something different. Anyone that thinks any wedge shaped car is a Ferrari, doesn't know what an S2000 is, so won't mistake an 818 for one.

Truth spoken here. LOL - I love ya Opp! That was great!

[kach22i]

I collected a few images to reflect some of the recent discussion.

http://s184.photobucket.com/user/kach22i/library/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends?sort=3&page=1
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/818-compare_zpsccf33e28.jpg (http://s184.photobucket.com/user/kach22i/media/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/818-compare_zpsccf33e28.jpg.html)

It looks to me like the FFR Project-818 incorporates the lower hood of the S2000, the lower windshield of the Mazda MX-5 plus has more of the mid-engine look.

The whole size of the side impact bars issue be it square or round, I'll leave it to your intuition on what looks safe.

[metalmaker12]

The 818 is the best looking of all in my opinion

[Kalstar]

The 818 is the best looking of all in my opinion

Don't go too far, the Atom is da' bomb! Easily the nicest of the pics above is the Atom. But pound for pound, or better yet price per pound the 818 is the easy winner.

[metalmaker12]

Naa I don't really like the looks of the atom, but yes it is the bomb, well the v8 is the real bomb. i think the 818 with 300whp will keep up with the Honda powered atom

[AMW1011]

I collected a few images to reflect some of the recent discussion.

http://s184.photobucket.com/user/kach22i/library/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends?sort=3&page=1
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/818-compare_zpsccf33e28.jpg (http://s184.photobucket.com/user/kach22i/media/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/818-compare_zpsccf33e28.jpg.html)

It looks to me like the FFR Project-818 incorporates the lower hood of the S2000, the lower windshield of the Mazda MX-5 plus has more of the mid-engine look.

The whole size of the side impact bars issue be it square or round, I'll leave it to your intuition on what looks safe.

Haven't seen that photo. From that angle the 818 actually looks pretty damn good. Its so odd that it looks so bad to me straight on. Perhaps less needs to be modified than I thought. I can't wait to see these in person.

[bnr32jason]

In my opinion it's just the straight on front angle that makes the 818 look awkward (ugly?) and I blame that solely on the design of the front bumper.

[wallace18]

Is there any chance of this thread quit beating a dead horse IMO?

[bnr32jason]

Just ignore the thread title, no one here except the OP (who is long gone) thinks the 818 was "beat with an ugly stick" so now we are simply discussing the aesthetics.

[AMW1011]

In my opinion it's just the straight on front angle that makes the 818 look awkward (ugly?) and I blame that solely on the design of the front bumper.

This. The front bumper is pretty bad, but the rest is quite pleasing to the eyes. Even the headlights aren't that bad.

[metalmaker12]

In person you will get a car boner

[Kalstar]

In person you will get a car boner

I agree, in person (much like the GTM) it looks completely different then in pics, in a very good way.

BTW, I have been in a 350whp Atom, never felt anything like it, period!

[bbjones121]

I think the atom is the ugliest exo car. It looks like a grain of rice grew some limbs/wheels.. The latest Superlite in the bottom left is much nicer looking. I almost saved up to get one of those, but then the whole roof thing or lack thereof became an issue with the wife (boss).

The 818 looks much better than a miata or s2000. I am glad that comparison collage was put together. The mid engine stance is very noticeable. Just look how much hood is between the front tire and the windshield. It also looks like the passengers are sitting on the rear axel.The Miata has that same gap between the front tire and windshield, but you don't sit as far back. Great idea to put them together like that.

[bbjones121]

FFR still needs to double loop the role bar. The single bar across is still very kitish.

[07FIREBLADE]

I would love to have an 818 with a spoon style hardtop like the s2000. That would be perfect for me.

[longislandwrx]

In person you will get a car boner

Turboner!

[kach22i]

The collage I slapped together has convinced me of a few things. Mainly that they have a good start for the customizers to go to work on.

If I were to modify a factory fender panel, the easiest thing to do would be to preserve the Opel Speedster style lines, and insert headlights of choice.
http://trialx.com/i/2012/11/17/pictures-of-the-2004-opel-speedster/
16912

No headlights in mind below, just masking out the lines FFR has already provided. I would still lean towards a Mazda-6 headlights despite what is shown.
http://s184.photobucket.com/user/kach22i/media/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/mask-818_zps65cd6f96.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/mask-818_zps65cd6f96.jpg (http://s184.photobucket.com/user/kach22i/media/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/mask-818_zps65cd6f96.jpg.html)

[David Hodgkins]

I've decided to close this thread. It has run it's course.

Please note: Thread titles like the one used in this thread - which are insulting and trollish - will be moderated in the future.