Budget Build Questions

[lvguy]

Out of the '87-'04 mustangs which can be paired with the base kit to make a budget build, which ones would people pick? From what I know about mustangs,(not much) it seems that a '95 GT would be one of the better options due to the engine and being relatively common( to aid in finding a decent one at a decent price). The follow up, would be how hard would it be to work on a '04 4.6 compared to a '95 302 if the desired end results were around 300-350hp?

To fit my budget and skill level, my initial thoughts were to purchase a functional donor car and tinker with it first, then get the kit after attending the build school for some hands on experience with the roadster itself. That way I would benefit of having already dealt with any faulty parts that would make the transfer and knowing that those parts were at least working properly before the transfer, etc.

[Mesa Mike]

In the early days ( I have a MKI) the choice was '87-'93 Mustang GT. Maybe things have changed with the MK4. I used a '91 GT and a '91 Thunderbird SC. The TB was for the IRS and rear brakes, which I strongly recommend the IRS option. I do recommend the '94-'95 GT cobra front spindles. Allows more brake options. I'm using a '91 5.0 block and have dynode it at about 425hp. except for the block, pistons and crank rest is all upgraded race parts.

Good idea to get a good running donor and "tinker" with it.

[CapeCoralCobra]

87-93 donor parts are probably the easiest to build with - tried & true for many years, but there are compromises. Fox body rear ends are the perfect width but have the 4 lug pattern. IMO, good looking 4-lug wheels are hard to find, but there are several affordable sources for the 5 lug conversion. If you go the IRS route (not exactly budget build friendly), the rear end argument in moot. Decent Fox donors are getting hard to find - most are either worn out or priced out of the donor category due to being in good condition. They are out there, you just have to be patient and know what you're looking for, like a well maintained but recently wrecked 5.0 5 spd GT or LX. Various parts may be worn past service viability and may only be good for cores. The 5.0 is certainly the easiest to work on and performance parts are plentiful and relatively inexpensive, and can be used in the stock EFI configuration or be switched to carb. 300-350 HP isn't difficult with the addition of compatible top end parts or full top end kits. If you go with a 5.0 donor, especially if sticking with EFI, I recommend 89-93. Most pre-89s will have speed density EFI. The mass air on the 89 + up is easier to work with when adding HP. 94+95 have a different front dress on the engine; timing cover, WP, etc, and most guys, I think, prefer the Fox set up, but spindles/brakes are an upgrade over the Fox. 94/95 rears are wider and not compatible with wide tires & common offset/popular wheel combos. Either way, 89-93 or 94-95, there are trade-offs due to their differences.

My previous experience, while fairly extensive, was strictly with carbed push-rod engines and I wanted to build my own, so I didn't even consider the 4.6. Just my personal comfort level, too many new tricks for this old dog to learn :confused:. Mine being a budget build, I bought an 88 GT, with an 89 5.0 and many new parts in it (previously wrecked and partially rebuilt before the young guy gave up), for $1K a little over 3 years ago, took what I wanted, and sold the remains for more than I paid for the car. I have replaced several of the donor parts in the last two years, but a number of them are still on the car. Keep in mind that a budget build can mean, depending on the year of the donor and budget $, one or more of the following: Limited HP/torque, suspension/ride limitations (4 link vs 3 link, 5 link or IRS, and donor springs/shocks vs coilovers), drum rear brakes(stock Fox rear end), and not as many new parts (although, if you don't mind getting dirty, many donor parts can be rebuilt), and definitely paint compromises. The only cure for these circumstances is cash, so the budget may suffer. Hint: Tell the guys here you have $2K-5K to improve your build and you'll learn 50 ways to spend it! That reminds me, I wanted to ask, what $ amount do you equate with a budget build?

HTH, good luck, and remember, whether they cost $25K or $75K, they're all fun! :)

[skullandbones]

Hi Ivguy,

If you have good connections locally for your build, you could save with the initial donor search. When I lived in TN, I could have found just about any part thru the local hotrod network. But out here in PHX, I was a newbie and didn't know squat about where to get things. That's why the forum is good. If you're able to get hooked up with local FFR builders, that can be a definite positive. I've met some guys now but the part search is long over. Still meeting other builders and having the real time support is priceless.

To your question: I went with a 92 GT pallet. In the process I have wasted about $2500 (sunk costs) with about 26k in it so far without paint and finish body work. So a single donor pallet is probably not the way you want to go. If I had it to do over, I would buy new or cherry pick the later model front spindles, rearend with 5 lug/ rotors, pedals, etc. to get exactly what works best on the roadster. That's why knowing the local market can save you a lot of money. Example is my find of a 302 with all the go fast stuff on it for my build except the headers and alum fly wheel for $300! The intake was over $600 new and about $350 used. I'm very happy after a few bad decisions but that's part of the process. The vendors on the forum are great, too. If you want to buy new stuff, you can almost always find it here. The key word is "budget". Everyone has a different bent on what that is. Depending on economic level, your budget may mean 75k. I tend to think 30k in todays economy is a pretty good figure for "budget build" for a roadster. JMO. Great idea to go to build school. I wish I had. Happy building!!! WEK.

[CraigS]

The 95 is good from the rear axle point of view but not so good otherwise. They modded the engine so it could also be used in an explorer where they wanted to move the engine forward. So, all the front belt drive stuff is squished closer to the block. This is not a big deal as long as you saty w/ the Ford alt and PS pump mounts by trimming off excess. But, if you want to buy aftermarket brackets etc., it's a pain. many companies list parts up to 93 and then from 96 on. It just wasn't worth their trouble to design stuff for a version made only two years. Since the engine was moved forward but they didn't want to move the shifter inside the car, they made a longer bellhousing, and also a longer input shaft on the trans. Again, this can be used, but the driveshaft is REALLY short if you go solid axle. Also, if you are going to use the stock efi, the harness is huge since there are a lot more things involved. Doable but more work. RE; 4.6, if you are really good w/ wireing and efi, you can make it work. Otherwise a carbed 302 is a ton easier. Also,think about a carbed 351. The basic 351 is a much stronger block and internals as it is. A mild cam and a set of Edelbrock Performer RPM heads and intake, w/ a slight bump in compression gives my 351 (engine factory built) a very easy to drive mild mannered 400 hp. I realize the donor car is a way to go, but at this point they are 20 yrs old. I would much rather pick and choose the best parts from various years mustangs, etc than try to do it all from one car. IE: 94-95 front spindles, 93 engine and trans if going 302, 95 axle ( I think you might still need shorter axles,someone please chime in on this as my memory is fuzzy).

[lvguy]

Thanks for the input! Right now, budget is looking like $25k give or take, not including the paint. To me, at least, it seems it would be more fun to get something workable, at a low cost, figure everything out, then work out all the fancier parts I'd actually make use of and want. I figure it will take me about a year to save enough for the base kit with the options I'd like. Part of the interest in working with a donor car, is that while I realize it will probably cost me a bit more in the long run, while I am saving it would give me something to do/work on in the meantime while I save for the kit. So far the regional search(within a few hundred miles of Las Vegas) has not turned up too many viable options. But there is one I am going to look at tomorrow if I have time.

CraigS are there any work arounds on the weird engine configuration? Like maybe pulleys with longer shafts? or would that put too much force on the shaft and cause issues?

[Avalanche325]

Another thing on the 94 / 95 is that is has a unique transmission and bellhousing. The bellhousing is deeper so the input shaft on the transmission is longer. You will always be stuck wth a drivetrain that may be tougher to get parts for. If you are thinking of upgrading the transmission later, this would be a bad choice. You would have to change everything between the flywheel and rear end.

[frankeeski]

You know, reading this and having used a 94 Mustang GT as my donor , I see so much misinformation. Please guy, unless you yourself have used a 94/95 as a donor parts car for your build, don't scare someone else away from using one. Lvguy, if you have any questions regarding using a 94 or 95 Mustang as you donor, feel free to send me a PM (private message) and I will answer you to the best of my knowledge.

[bil1024]

I just picked up a 88 donor for 500.00, 106k in miles. But has auto trans which I will convert. They are out there, keep looking

[Mustang Man]

What misinformation Frank? Avalanche is correct about the deeper bellhousing and longer input shaft, as is the earlier post about the compressed FEAD on the SN95/T-Bird setup (yes, the Explorer comment was "out there", but he's still correct about the FEAD shortcomings and lack of aftermarket pulley/bracket support).

Instead of hiding everything in a PM, post it in this thread so the CORRECT information is shared. That's how EVERYONE is helped...

Mark

[frankeeski]

Hey Mark, Thanks!
Didn't realize I needed to answer for my time here. Here is what I wrote to lvguy last night.

Re: 94/95 Donor Car

Quote Originally Posted by lvguy
Hi,

Thanks for responding. As I said earlier in the thread I have pretty limited knowledge of mustangs, but over the past few days I've been working on that, but...I still don't know much lol. So I guess to start, of the stuff the other guys said, what is and isn't correct?

Thanks,
lvguy


Well, although your question is broad I will try to run down a few things that I noticed in that thread that are wrong. The 94/95 front dress, that is the timing cover, water pump and pulley set up was changed to fit into the SN95 Mustang. It had nothing to do with the Ford Explorer. While the engine bay in the SN95 was a bit wider, it was shorter and therefore the length of the engine had to be addressed. They did this by changing the front dress of the engine and by going to an electric cooling fan rather than the engine driven fan from the previous Fox body Mustangs. More on the fan later. The SN95 in 94 and 95 were in preparation to the new 4.6 liter over head cam motors that were supposed to be in production for the SN95 Mustangs. The 4.6 engine didn't make it into production Mustangs until 96. The SN95 Mustangs were available with ABS brakes and the wiring harness in the 94/95 mustangs is much more similar to a 4.6 wiring harness than it is to a 5.0 harness. Now to the fan, the fan is an electric 2 speed fan that is controlled by the Constant Control Relay Module (CCRM). Again this is just like the 4.6 liter Mustang, the CCRM also controls the electric fuel pump. On the engines distributor Ford found that the TFI module that they had mounted on the distributor during the Fox body Mustang era, had a habit of failing do to heat. In 1994 they move the TFI module to the fender wall and remote mounted it, far fewer failures. The T5 transmission in the 94/95 is almost exact to the previous years Mustangs, the only difference being the input shaft. The input shaft is about an inch longer. This requires a longer bell housing that is specific to those two years. The drive shaft from FFR will fit, as a matter of fact, they only sell one length for a T5 transmission and it is the 94/95 length. The 93 and before guys use the same one being an inch shorter and have no problems with it. I had my drive shaft from my donor shortened at a local shop for 100 bucks. The 94/95 has 4 wheel disc brakes and 5 lug axles and spindles. The rear axle is 3/4" wider on each side so if you are doing FFR Halibrand style wheels you will have to change out the axle shafts for 93 and before length and get new brake brackets. Forte's parts connection carries all of the parts you'll need. If however you'd like to use the factory ABS as I did , you'll have to run aftermarket wheels in a shallower back spacing to get the wheels to fit in the wheel wells. Independent rear suspension is a different thing and on your budget probably out of the picture but there are way to use the ABS with IRS as well. I built my car to the point it is at right now with no paint for $22K. That includes the engine I am currently working on to drop in it and the Levy 5-Link suspension I used in the rear. Personally, for a somewhat strict donor build, I think a 94/95 is a very good choice. That's just my opinion though. Since you are in LV you may want to think about taking a trip down to SoCal in 2 weeks for the Factory Five Huntington Beach Cruise in. There should be over 100 FFR car there and it may be a good opportunity to ask a bunch of questions and find out if this is really something that is for you. If you have any other questions feel free to ask, and don't let anyone scare you. Frank

P.S. A 4.6 liter Mustang is really no harder if you are going to stick with EFI and you can find lower mileage examples of them.

[Mustang Man]

You don't need to "answer" for your time here. I'm just stating that it helps everyone when information is shared in the main forum threads, which is the whole idea for a forum in the first place.

BTW, the bellhousing/input shaft length was increased exactly 17mm, which is closer to 11/16-inch ;)

[SStrong]

I discovered the bell housing issue the hard way, using a 94 donor. The bell housing on the donor turned out to be cracked. Bought a new one from a vendor, who was unaware there was a difference. Had to buy a used one on ebay for what I paid for the Fox. Anyone need a blue Fox bellhousing? 5 lug axles for the Fox rear end are pretty reasonable, but you will need brackets to mount discs. I wouldn't go donor again, as you can pick up what you need on ebay or local yards. I'm at $36k before paint because I decided to go with new wiring and a few other things. No plan survives the first battle, I guess. Hope you come up with a successful plan, you will enjoy the experience.
Steve

[CraigS]

Sorry about my Explorer reference. I had read that somewhere. Jeez, I thought everything on the internet was true. Anyway, the shorter front dress is a fact. I know. My MkI was built w/ a 95 engine and I learned all this the hard way. So, yeah, I HAVE had an FFR w/ a 95 engine.

[wbulk]

The 94-95 trans issue is not that big a deal. The imput shaft is a little longer. I have one in mine and if I ever need a new T-5 I will just put in the longer input shaft. Other than that it's the same trans.

[tirod]

In terms of budget, it's an issue to be considered. The '65 to '66 bellhousing change brought on equally difficult parts chases - I had one of each, things didn't just swap around - at all. Even the transmission rebuilders in the early '70s had no clue, and didn't provide the correct shifter mounting adapter plate for the different tailhousings.

Budget, stick with the Windsor, and stick with the common years. Yes, the block has been out of production, but the parts remain cheap, and the 4.6 has issues. It's become the Y block of today - passed over, and it doesn't have nearly the same market place support for upgrade parts. That becomes a budget issue, too, when attempting to sort out a 15 year old wiring harness that has some defect.

Wiring is a major budget issue in the long run. Don't set yourself up for a trap later down the road running factory wiring that's already past it's prime and on the downhill side of old age. Most vehicle problems in cars over 10 years old aren't mechanical, it's wiring glitches and electronics now.

Another issue with the 4.6 is the overhead cams, working on the motor requires special tools to hold them. They don't have keyed or splined cam gears, and loosening the gear bolts guarantees losing the timing, which in my neighborhood is a $450 adjustment to regain the lost factory computer set cam timing. The intakes are prone to leaking antifreeze internally, and some motors are known to blow the plugs out of the heads - the steel spark plugs strip the aluminum threads and literally come flying out. One part of the problem there are plugs with threads exposed in the combustion chamber, which carbon up. The plugs are known to break off rather than screw out because of that. Another issue is overheating - an aluminum block that's been cooked will allow the bolts and studs to pull the threads. Usually head gaskets become a repeated ordeal as the head bolts simply will not hold torque. It's not a mod motor issue as much as an aluminum block issue. They cannot be allowed to overheat repeatedly like we abuse iron blocks.

The SAI issue is another budget buster - using the stock early spindle with adapters results in high steering effort. The steering axis inclination is 18 degrees, not 9, and that prompts a lot of builders to add power steering, which costs money, too. Donor brakes are also, the rear single piston calipers are simply too small for a car that has 51% of it's weight on the back tires - they need to be the same size as the fronts, just like Vettes and Vipers. It's money ahead to install bigger calipers on the rear to get properly balanced brakes.

It boils down to using a donor at all is setting up problems down the road with other issues, and it turns out creates more expense in the long run. It's not necessary when the parts are available with a little research across the counter reman or from a clean salvage car. The biggest issue long term is the wiring harness, tho, as that is a time bomb that's already starting to sizzle when it's pulled out of an old wreck. It's not money saved dieting a harness if the skills and electrical knowledge aren't already accumulated. Better to start out completely new and work with a clean labeled harness from a vendor.

It goes to "budget" sometimes being the trap of "false economy." If budget is an issue, then research and some reflection will be required. It can be done, but it doesn't have to be done by accepting compromises that later will prove short sighted. As many discover when they get a scratch in their $6,000 paint job. For $25k, paint like that isn't in the budget, search the internet for "The $50 paint job" and see how trophy winners have done it with that kind of money for the budget.