818 vs Ultima

[veloce2]

818 vs Ultima who wins?

[Matty_STi]

Depends what you are wanting to compare. Depends on the build.

0-60: Ultima
1/4 mile: : Ultima
standing mile: Ultima
0-200mph: Ultima
top speed: Ultima
fast lap around nurburgring: Ultima
100-0: Ultima
maximum cornering g: Ultima
cost: 818
lap time on super tight auto x: 818..

But depends on a tonne of factors. like comparing a gumpert apollo to a gtm, either could take it depending on the build.. Would be better to compare an ultima to a gtm..

Matt

[metalmaker12]

racing and competing with ultima is a huge hill to climb, it might be able to be done, but would cost serious coin.

[veloce2]

I am getting tired of waiting, I may go big with Ultima or Superlite

[veloce2]

racing and competing with ultima is a huge hill to climb, it might be able to be done, but would cost serious coin.

Weight would go to 818, but HP would go to Ultima. Can the 818 chassis stand up to that type of challenge is the question? There are going to be some big HP Subaru's out there, thats why I asked the question about the transaxle. Serious coin for a good subaru engine, but still a cheap build, it will be interesting to see what happens.

[longislandwrx]

what is the typical power/weight ratio of the Ultima?

[Red Tag]

I have loved the Ultima since they were introduced. But I haven't seen an Ultima for sale for less than $60K. I think this is comparing apples to high performance oranges.

[Gus]

I am getting tired of waiting, I may go big with Ultima or Superlite

SLC anyday...

[Samiam1017]

The one with the better driver

[Matty_STi]

Weight would go to 818, but HP would go to Ultima. Can the 818 chassis stand up to that type of challenge is the question? There are going to be some big HP Subaru's out there, thats why I asked the question about the transaxle. Serious coin for a good subaru engine, but still a cheap build, it will be interesting to see what happens.

If big hp numbers are the goal than the 5MT isn't the trans to use.. There are better options out there.. I am looking into a variety right now while I plan my build.. (and before I rattle up the locals again yes I am serious about my build pm me for further details, also I will start a build DETAILS thread to explain some of my ideas, actual build thread will be later)... I am looking at putting together a POTENTIAL 700whp 818. Before anyone wigs the merits of this have already been debated and I have help on my other projects form some seriously smart people so lets leave it at that.

-Matt

[Xusia]

...yes I am serious about my build...

I believe you, Matty! I still think you're crazy; but I do believe you! Crazy or not, however, you will be doing everyone a service by forging new ground, finding limits, etc. I think a lot of folks - myself included - will be very interested to find out what you learn. :)

[gwader]

$17k vs $50-70

I've seen a Ultima kit in progress and its complete minus the engine tranny. COMPLETE! The gelcoat is amazing anddoesn't need to be painted.

RCR looks best of all

[Nuul]

$17k vs $50-70

That's what I thought at when I saw it too. Mazda 3 vs Porsche Boxter...not really a fair comparison.

[carbon fiber]

unusual comparison. i'd see the gtm, slc and the ultima as more comparable. if i hadn't bought the gtm, i'd have gone with the slc. great kit, performs, and looks better than the ultima.

[BipDBo]

The Ultima is much more comparable to the GTM. They are almost identical. Same drivetrain, and general architecture. The Ultima has been around longer so there's been a greater variety of drivetrains installed. I'm sure thoug that anything you can put into an Ultima you can also put into a GTM. They have similar weight and balance but GTM outweighs the GTR by about 17%. The GTM certainly is better equipped to be a daily driver, though, whereas the Ultima is a road legal race car. The GTM has more interior room, window that actually roll down, etc. The GTM is also a lot cheaper.

The 818, in comparison is much more of an entry level kit; much cheaper, and likely much faster to build.

[longislandwrx]

I think for 80% of the money you'd invest in the Ultima you could make a competitive 818... if you had to stay Subaru, a stroked TT H6 could put out 600hp with enough low end grunt to compete.

That or trash the Subaru motor altogether.

I'd start with this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-996-Twin-Turbo-Engine-Motor-and-6-Speed-Transmission-Conversion-/170931199489?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27cc4b1e01&vxp=mtr

[BrandonDrums]

I'd build a GTM any day if I had the dough. An Ultima isn't as comfortable as even an 818 will be from what I hear.

[veloce2]

I think the 818 will be pushed into the Ultima SLR world whether it wants to or not for a number of reason. One, the engine platform is popular with a whole different group of people and they will want to be competitive. Second it's what car guys do.... push the envelope, so discussing whether the car was meant for this or if it's a fair comparison really is mute. The parts and technology are out there, it's just putting them together. The 818 will be popular because it has the capability of going mild to wild unlike the other big engineered competitors, the question is how wild will it get?

[Nuul]

I'd build a GTM any day if I had the dough.

Agreed, I sometimes daydream about the GTM I would build if I hit the lottery and I could go crazy with the go fast goodies.

[Matty_STi]

I think the 818 will be pushed into the Ultima SLR world whether it wants to or not for a number of reason. One, the engine platform is popular with a whole different group of people and they will want to be competitive. Second it's what car guys do.... push the envelope, so discussing whether the car was meant for this or if it's a fair comparison really is mute. The parts and technology are out there, it's just putting them together. The 818 will be popular because it has the capability of going mild to wild unlike the other big engineered competitors, the question is how wild will it get?

I'll give you that argument, as I am looking to build something that would easily take care of an ultima if not more exotic fare. But I still think the gtm is the better comparison for the ultima and most 818 guys aren't gonna be going to nutty with their motor builds I would think.. I am probably in the slim slim minority that would look at anything over 500hp, and even slimmer when it comes to thinking about 600++whp.

-Matt

[Evan78]

The GTM comparison is better if you are driving a GTM. If you own an 818, the comparison is appropriate.

[carbon fiber]

the lighter car with a shorter wheelbase/narrower track is going to have a harder time with stability than these other platforms when running big hp #s, imho. if i was going to build a true hypercar, i wouldn't start with the proportions of the 818. don't take me the wrong way, the 818 will be a quick car, but you've bit off ALOT when it comes to comparing to an ultima. quite a few world records, 0-60 in 2.6 / 1/4 mile in 9.9 seconds. it was even faster around the top gear track than former f1 champion michael schumacher in a ferrari fxx. even if the performance would be comparable, i don't think the driving experience would be.

[Xusia]

The GTM comparison is better if you are driving a GTM. If you own an 818, the comparison is appropriate.

I truly mean no offense when I say I don't think that's sound logic. If you want to compare them, that's up to you, but that doesn't inherently make it a fair comparison. I own a truck, but I don't think it's fair to compare it to a Prius - unless I'm trying to make a purchase decision, in which case my specific use cases & criteria are what I'm comparing each vehicle against (not against each other).

FFR's website states:

"The emphasis will be on handling and driving fun rather than on the 200 mph exotic..."

While they also state the platform should also be good for more competition focused builds, the project goals (low weight, low cost, easy build, etc.) and the statement above tend to indicate there are going to be some limits to how far the 818 platform can be taken when compared to the aforementioned "no compromise" cars. Therefore, I don't think they are directly comparable from a performance standpoint. The GTM is the FFR kit intended to run with that crowd.

Still, I do believe the 818 can be quite competitive against many of these cars, and probably for a lot less money. AND, the 818 has many other merits, such as a being more comfortable, being a "world car", being easy to build, etc.

[veloce2]

the lighter car with a shorter wheelbase/narrower track is going to have a harder time with stability than these other platforms when running big hp #s, imho. if i was going to build a true hypercar, i wouldn't start with the proportions of the 818. don't take me the wrong way, the 818 will be a quick car, but you've bit off ALOT when it comes to comparing to an ultima. quite a few world records, 0-60 in 2.6 / 1/4 mile in 9.9 seconds. it was even faster around the top gear track than former f1 champion michael schumacher in a ferrari fxx. even if the performance would be comparable, i don't think the driving experience would be.

I agree the challenge will be making that narrower/ shorter chassis work.

It's crazy that the Ultima is so fast, there isn't anything that special about it.

[veloce2]

I'll give you that argument, as I am looking to build something that would easily take care of an ultima if not more exotic fare. But I still think the gtm is the better comparison for the ultima and most 818 guys aren't gonna be going to nutty with their motor builds I would think.. I am probably in the slim slim minority that would look at anything over 500hp, and even slimmer when it comes to thinking about 600++whp.

-Matt

You thinking four wheel drive?

[Kalstar]

The GTM comparison is better if you are driving a GTM. If you own an 818, the comparison is appropriate.

What if you own both?

The GTM is the flagship, the 818 will do something's better. In the long run, the GTM is still the apex predictor of the F5R line up.

[Evan78]

I truly mean no offense when I say I don't think that's sound logic. If you want to compare them, that's up to you, but that doesn't inherently make it a fair comparison. I own a truck, but I don't think it's fair to compare it to a Prius - unless I'm trying to make a purchase decision, in which case my specific use cases & criteria are what I'm comparing each vehicle against (not against each other).

FFR's website states:

"The emphasis will be on handling and driving fun rather than on the 200 mph exotic..."

While they also state the platform should also be good for more competition focused builds, the project goals (low weight, low cost, easy build, etc.) and the statement above tend to indicate there are going to be some limits to how far the 818 platform can be taken when compared to the aforementioned "no compromise" cars. Therefore, I don't think they are directly comparable from a performance standpoint. The GTM is the FFR kit intended to run with that crowd.

Still, I do believe the 818 can be quite competitive against many of these cars, and probably for a lot less money. AND, the 818 has many other merits, such as a being more comfortable, being a "world car", being easy to build, etc.


What if you own both?

The GTM is the flagship, the 818 will do something's better. In the long run, the GTM is still the apex predictor of the F5R line up.

I don't see how fairness is even relevant. In objective measurements, a comparison is simply stating the facts, or engaging in a theoretical discussion as is being done here. Comparing a truck to a Prius is also perfectly "fair". Each have their advantages. If you are restricted by budget, room in your garage, or whatever, you may have to pick just one and figure out which is better for your needs. If you have an 818 and would like to know how it compares to an Ultima, I don't see the issue. Just because the GTM may stack up better, it doesn't make the 818 comparison unfair. What does the GTM have to do with the 818 besides the manufacturer? The OP didn't say "I have an 818 and a GTM, which should I take to race my buddy's Ultima?" or "I have a budget of $X, which FFR kit do I purchase to achieve this goal?"

Saying it is unfair makes it sound like you have some emotional interest in who "wins".

[Evan78]

What if you own both?

The GTM is the flagship, the 818 will do something's better. In the long run, the GTM is still the apex predictor of the F5R line up.Apex predictor? Is this an FFR marketing meeting or a bench racing thread ;)

[Kalstar]

Apex predictor? Is this an FFR marketing meeting or a bench racing thread ;)

Don't be hate'n, it's just fact.

[Matty_STi]

You thinking four wheel drive?

Though I could, modding a transaxle to work or getting a custom job just wouldn't be worth it I don't think, especially to handle the loads I am predicting would probably put me in the $40,000 range on the low end I would think.. lol

[Xusia]

I don't see how fairness is even relevant. In objective measurements, a comparison is simply stating the facts, or engaging in a theoretical discussion as is being done here. Comparing a truck to a Prius is also perfectly "fair". Each have their advantages. If you are restricted by budget, room in your garage, or whatever, you may have to pick just one and figure out which is better for your needs. If you have an 818 and would like to know how it compares to an Ultima, I don't see the issue. Just because the GTM may stack up better, it doesn't make the 818 comparison unfair. What does the GTM have to do with the 818 besides the manufacturer? The OP didn't say "I have an 818 and a GTM, which should I take to race my buddy's Ultima?" or "I have a budget of $X, which FFR kit do I purchase to achieve this goal?"

Saying it is unfair makes it sound like you have some emotional interest in who "wins".

Good points. I guess I took it more as the OP was trying to see how competitive the 818 would be, and the answer was basically "Not so much. If you want to compete with an Ultima, get a GTM," because the 818 isn't designed to be direct competition with such cars.

[Mike N]

A good collection of performance figures for high performance cars is the Top Gear lap times. The current Talley can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Top_Gear_test_track_Power_Lap_Times Now Top Gear never ran an Ultima on their track, but Ultima did and it ran a 1:12.8 http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/Content.aspx?f=record8 I would say that the closest thing in the Top Gear list to a very high end, well set up 818 would be the Caterham R500 which ran a 1:17.9 which is pretty darn impressive but still 3 seconds off a similarly set up Ultima. On a smiles per $ basis the 818 is going to take some beating if you ask me. But when it comes right down to it this is just bench racing isn't it.........

[longislandwrx]

PERFORMANCE FIGURES FOR ULTIMA GTR720


0-60mph 2.6secs
0-100mph 5.3secs
30-70mph 1.8secs
0-100mph-0 9.4secs
100mph-0 3.6secs
Standing ¼ mile 9.9secs @143mph
Top Speed 231mph (gearing limited)
Skidpad (200ft) 1.176g

Using there numbers, a stripped down 818R with between 350 and 400 FHP should be pretty comparable. That doesn't seem too crazy.
Although the 818 will gear out at about 185... and the Ultima will chase it down which wont matter as you'll probably have gone back in time by then.

btw we should be looking at the spyder/can am which matches up with the 818's open top better.

[veloce2]

I guess I took it more as the OP was trying to see how competitive the 818 would be, and the answer was basically "Not so much. If you want to compete with an Ultima, get a GTM," because the 818 isn't designed to be direct competition with such cars.

Who says? IMO This is new ground using Subaru power and a lite chassis, it's new ground. I think Mazda won some little races in France using a small engine.

[Xusia]

Who says?

As I previously stated, FFR does: "The emphasis will be on handling and driving fun rather than on the 200 mph exotic..."

[carbon fiber]

yes mazda won lemans with a rotory engine... in a GTP car with similar dimensions to the ultima/gtm/slc, not dimensions of the 818. THE ULTIMA DOES 231 MPH, AND STILL DOES 0-60 IN 2.6! NO COMPARISON. GAME OVER.

[Niburu]

I've seen all of Factory Five's cars on the street at some point or another, I've never seen an Ultima anywhere other than at a track day.

[Evan78]

Just because the original designers didn't use a given car as a design benchmark doesn't mean nobody should ever make the comparison. There's probably more posts in this thread about if the comparison should even be made than just discussing the actual question.

[Turboguy]

They are both kit cars with a pretty wide array of possible engine options. Add that to the fact that FFR has only hinted at handling performance numbers, and there really isn't enough info here to make a call.


There is no way to make a comparison of these cars performance-wise at this point, and it may not even be doable once we know more about the 818, due to the variability in driveline options that exist for both cars.

[RM1SepEx]

They are both kit cars with a pretty wide array of possible engine options. Add that to the fact that FFR has only hinted at handling performance numbers, and there really isn't enough info here to make a call.


There is no way to make a comparison of these cars performance-wise at this point, and it may not even be doable once we know more about the 818, due to the variability in driveline options that exist for both cars.

how true... Most 818 will be far lower in HP and far less expensive... However with enough $ both should be damn capable!

[metalmaker12]

+_+=1

[veloce2]

There are ways to build the Superlite and the Ultima at lower costs. Both of these companies advertise their top of the line components, but the builder doesn't necessarily have to build the kit that way. Just as an example the brake system on the Ultima is advertised at 4000.00 USD but the Ford brakes work fine and they cost 1500.00. You don't have to use top of the line to get performance.

[guitaraholic]

I can't see building a SL-C for less than $55,000 (and that's very conservative). Figure $44k for the kit, leaving $11k for engine, transaxle, exhaust, ...ect) I guess maybe if you used a Subaru Engine and Tranny you could possibly get away with $5k, and bring you close to $50k, but will you be happy with a $50k supercar with a four banger?

I'm budgeting about $65K or so for my build, I got a good price on a L92(6.2) with all accessories, ECU, Wiring harness and pedal assy, going to do the rebuild myself, may stroke it, we'll see, and if all goes well, a Griffin Transaxle.

The only places I guess you "could" save money on, is maybe running your own lines, get a set of used Camaro brakes, fab your own interior, used wheels, used steering column and rack. Weld your own fuel tank, no A/C (in FL not an option). Then again, you don't get the discount for the purchase at once, so you save even less.

But why, then you'll have something that has used parts, and you spent a lot more time on, and saved maybe $5k maybe,, and I say MAYBE $10k.