SEDAN control arms or Wagon? [Archive]

PhyrraM

03-09-2013, 10:29 PM

For the '02-'07 "proper donor" years, yes, the sedan control arms are wider by about 3/8" (10mm) per side. I can't say if this will be visually noticeable on the 818, but there won't be any objective advantage to either.

Worst case.."Deep dish" look wheel guys go for the wagon control arms and 1/2" less backspacing?

The wagon axles are 10mm SHORTER.

Also, if your using pre-'02 Impreza parts, everything is the narrower 'wagon' width.

Samiam1017

03-11-2013, 08:16 AM

Thanks Phyrram. I was mistaken. So I guess if you wanted to run 5x114 pattern wagon arms would be what you would want at I'm sure a pattern adaptor is 1/2 in thick!

FFR-ADV

03-11-2013, 05:13 PM

My donor is a 2004 WRX Wagon which I have run instead of my DD since purchasing the WRX last September. I want to upgrade to the aluminum STi Lower Aluminum Control Arms like these (Subaru part B2010FE251DS) which is $350 locally in Southern NH, or I might find a deal on some used STi control arms before my build, but they show fit for 2002 & 2003 WRX and RS sedan.

http://www.subaruwrxparts.com/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=1445&idcategory=20#details

Will this require shorter CV drive shafts?
Will the sedan aluminum control arms fit the Wagon spindles or are there different aluminum lower control arms which will fit the 2004 WRX wagon?
Is there anything else required to do this upgrade?

Thanks!

wleehendrick

03-11-2013, 06:03 PM

Will this require shorter CV drive shafts?

As I understand it (read it somewhere on the forum), FFR will be providing drive shafts that use the inboard front CVs and the outboard rear CVs to drive the rear wheels. I'm not a subbie expert, but doesn't this mean that a wagon donor will need shorter shafts? If that's the case, then won't FFR need to provide shorter shafts for those of us with wagon donors?

Is there anything else required to do this upgrade?

If you add longer front LCAs, you may have toe issues with a steering rack rack off a wagon. Anyone more familiar with Subbies can confirm? Do the sedans have longer tie rods, or what?

PhyrraM

03-11-2013, 06:53 PM

FFR-ADV

03-11-2013, 07:19 PM

If you add longer front LCAs, you may have toe issues with a steering rack rack off a wagon. Anyone more familiar with Subbies can confirm? Do the sedans have longer tie rods, or what?

I wouldn't mind upgrading to a depowered STi steering rack at the same time. Doesn't the 2006 WRX share the aluminum lower control arms and steering rack with the 2006 STi? Seems like that might be a nice upgrade? Will this play with the 2004 WRX wagon front spindle?

Thanks for your help!

wleehendrick

03-11-2013, 07:24 PM

Doesn't the 2006 WRX share the aluminum lower control arms and steering rack with the 2006 STi? Seems like that might be a nice upgrade? Will this play with the 2004 WRX wagon front spindle?

The '06 wagon that my donor is has the narrower steel LCAs'. The sedan has Al arms, but I don't know if they're the same as the STi. I'll let the experts confirm and address the compatibility issues!

FFR-ADV

03-11-2013, 07:37 PM

It is very likely that the FFR provided shafts will be sized to work with both vehicle widths.

Keep in mind that the "aluminum control arms" are used in the front, which does not have a CV shaft on the 818.

Could the rear width be corrected with new aftermarket rear links for a 2006 WRX?
Putting new or rebuilt aluminum control arms & rebuilt STi steering rack up front for a 2006 (WRX or STi)?

Does this work?

Thanks again!

THE ITALIAN

03-11-2013, 08:00 PM

Ok , so I think there are a few things that need to be clarified by FFR, They did say IMPREZA, they also show pictures of two versions of Subaru (they don't show a wagon)and unlike the roadster/mustang GT, the front is pretty cut and dry, but the rear is still preference.

the fact that they don't chime in on many of our questions may mean THEY are not quite set in stone yet.

Bob_n_Cincy

03-11-2013, 09:29 PM

I have a wagon as my doner. I know the track width are different on the sedan. Is it possible the LCA are the same but the mounting points on the wagon and sedan have different widths? The 818 has multiple holes at the LCA mounting point. I thought they were for handling set up, but the also can be used for track width adjustment if you have the shorter control arms.

PhyrraM

03-12-2013, 01:29 AM

...... Is it possible the LCA are the same but the mounting points on the wagon and sedan have different widths?

No. All the pickup points on the chassis are the same.

Front control arms and rear lateral links are wider. CV shafts are longer.

Knuckles/Hubs are the SAME.

Struts are drilled slightly differently to accommodate slightly more 'lean' on the sedans.

Front tie rod ends *may* be different.

The differences are so minor (10mm per side), unless your stuck on the aluminum control arms, I wouldn't give it much thought.

FFR-ADV

03-12-2013, 05:10 AM

The Subaru performance catalog also shows the lower control arms fitting only the 2002 & 2003 WRX and RS sedan. Since the Knuckles/Hubs are the same are the control arms interchangeable with an update to a 2006 WRX or STi steering rack change? I would like to upgrade to the STi rack anyway, so if this is the case then it might sort out nicely. Isn't FFR supplying the upper control arms for the front suspension?

Thanks!

Samiam1017

03-12-2013, 07:36 AM

What are the ratios of that racks. Are the sti racks faster ?

longislandwrx

03-12-2013, 07:48 AM

I found a dealer in CT that had the Impreza LCAs for $310... was going to buy a used set and get new bushings and ball joints but for that price with why not get shiny new ones.

according to the page they fit: Sedan-WRX '04-'05,'07; RS '02-'05; 2.5i '06-'07 but that would mean they have to fit more.

the STI aluminum arms are about 550... not sure how much better they are.

Mechie3

03-12-2013, 08:18 AM

IIRC, 06 WRX and STI LCA might be different. The Spec C LCA are different and add more caster.

PhyrraM

03-12-2013, 08:49 AM

Because of the adjustability built into the FFR suspension, the exact control arm you choose is not important.

Erik W. Treves

03-12-2013, 09:47 AM

Because of the adjustability built into the FFR suspension, the exact control arm you choose is not important.

not sure i agree with that...is that your opinion? or is in truth a fact... I ordered, by accident, a wagon rear control arm and it was easy to see it was shorter...considering that FFR is providing a set length axle center replacement, your position, in my opinion, does not take the fixed axle length provided by FFR into account. When I was at FFR on my visit, I did notice a "shorter" control arm laying next to the car and I remember saying to myself, wonder why that is laying there and not installed on the car... not saying it would work...I for one wasn't sure...so I ordered a sedan one....I have an extra wagon rear control arm if anybody wants one :D

RM1SepEx

03-12-2013, 10:31 AM

sounds like a great "ask a F5 tech" question

I would think in the front, you lose 20 mm track width... about 3/4 inch, easy to adjust the adj uppers for camber, trail etc

I would think that in the back the F5 axles would need to match the Lower transverse arm donor as the axle length is dependent on the track... and again the track would vary are they also 10 mm per side shorter?

I bought adj lower transverse arms... Still trying to sell my original aluminum rear, front tranverse wrx links on Ebay
they are 16.5 inches center to center... Erik, what are the wagon links?

PhyrraM

03-12-2013, 11:27 AM

Folks have unknowingly used shorter CV shafts on sedans with no problems. Theoretically the inner joint could pull out under full droop, however I haven't read of it actually happening (of course, I can't say it hasn't either).

Also consider that the 818 is likely to have much less suspension travel than a WRX - which has more travel than any other econobox (on steriods).

I'm pretty convinced that FFR not only knows about the width differences, but will accomodate them. Hence my statement that it shouldn't matter what arms you choose.

Now, if your a Min-Maxer or your ego needs 'the best', by all means make your 818 how you like. I'm just saying that funtionally, the difference is negligable. I don't want some of our less studious members thinking that they need to chase down rare and/or expensive parts to build thier 818s because a few of us are trying to build exceptional builds.

BrandonDrums

03-12-2013, 12:16 PM

Is it the lateral links themselves or just the mounting points for the lateral links that cause the width difference on a WRX wagon vs. sedan? Up front it's the LCA that has a different length but I seem to recall someone pointing out that the rear multi-link suspension which doesn't bolt directly to the chassis simply has a different mounting point on the sedan vs. the wagon. The 818 will have it's own mounting locations, perhaps we're only going to need to be concerned about the front control arm length on the 818?

See the diagram below, part 1 is the mounting assembly for the rear suspension on a WRX. Are 3 and 4 (the lateral links) the parts that differ on sedan vs. wagon or is it just the mounting assembly and the mounting bracket for the trailing arm (part 12)?

FFR could easily change up the mounting points on the chassis for the rear suspension bits to prevent needing a different length axle assembly. The fronts won't be driven so the width only matters for wheel clearance in the wells.

http://www.dealerdirectparts.com/v/vspfiles/photos/7591666.gif

RM1SepEx

03-12-2013, 12:57 PM

3 is the front aluminum link, 4 is the steel link with the sway bar mount. F 5 can't provide two mounting bolt holes if the distance differs by only 10mm as the bolt diameter is bigger than that.

Can some one with a wagon measure hole to hole and we can compare it to my stock wrx parts center to center of 16.5 inches?

Erik W. Treves

03-12-2013, 01:30 PM

I will measure them as soon as I get home...the one I have is just laying under a bunch of crap...

PhyrraM

03-12-2013, 01:46 PM

According to Subaru part numbers (opposedforces.com) the crossmembers are the same and it's the lateral links that are different.

Erik W. Treves

03-12-2013, 04:36 PM

Yep got it....just know that the positioning of the engine and now the pickup points are all on FFR chassis. The "new" IRS pickup points (which I think is now fixed I think) for the roadsters had issues where the FFR supplied shafts were slightly too short allowing the shaft to fall out of the diff. Same type of implementation, stock uprights, stock diff, stock CV boots and FFR supplied axles...and one was too short. I will ASSUME that FFR has this captured as something they need to watch for during tooling...I don't think any assumptions can be made in either driection until we have the kit in hand....we may find that the shorter links allow for too much engagement....measurement to follow within 2 hours or less

Erik W. Treves

03-12-2013, 05:54 PM

ok... wagon center hole to center hole is about 15 3/4. ...again not making assumptions here....here they are in direct comparison.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16133&d=1363128701

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16134&d=1363128702

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16135&d=1363128703

FFR-ADV

03-12-2013, 07:29 PM

I found a dealer in CT that had the Impreza LCAs for $310... was going to buy a used set and get new bushings and ball joints but for that price with why not get shiny new ones.

That's great. I was thinking the same thing when looking at used plus cost of new bushings. Can you share the weblink or name of your CT LCA parts source?

Thanks everyone for the great info that you are pulling together here!

Cheers!

FFR-ADV

03-12-2013, 07:40 PM

There are two sets of holes/mounting points for the suspension. Jim indicated that one set is for track height which is 1 inch lower than street height. Both suspension attachment points will be present on both the 818S and 818R.

16136

Cheers!

longislandwrx

03-13-2013, 06:18 AM

That's great. I was thinking the same thing when looking at used plus cost of new bushings. Can you share the weblink or name of your CT LCA parts source?

Call your local dealers first I paid $336 total shipped, it may work out that your local dealer is cheaper (my dealers are rip off artists for anything other than small parts)... part number is B2010FE251DS

I got mine from http://www.subarupartswebsite.com

They should be here today so I'll post pictures of what is included.

Got home and they were on my porch.

1616216163

Came with new ball joints, bushings and even new flange nuts for everything. Very happy with the piece and price. Some of the edges are a little sharp so a quick deburring will be all these guys need.

Very much worth getting new.
PS every time someone posts a picture of the chassis I get shivers thinking about it parked in my garage... I don't think this kit will ever get finished... all the neighbors are going to be over constantly asking questions.

BrandonDrums

03-13-2013, 09:12 AM

longislandwrx

03-13-2013, 06:33 PM

BAM. added pictures to my earlier post.

FFR-ADV

03-14-2013, 05:10 AM

Thank you for the link and great info longislandwrx.

Those parts look great.

Are you doing any upgrades on the rear control arms or trailing link?

Cheers!

longislandwrx

03-14-2013, 06:13 AM

I priced out a ton of pieces for the rear, and originally planned on getting a set of new set of lateral links that had the removable knuckle mounted swaybar mount or two sets of rear front lateral links (as I didn't want the brackets on there if there was no sway bar going to be used)

I think I may wait at this point and see what level of adjustment the chassis offers before going out and spending money. My donor has the aluminum links already, so I may just end up grinding off the sway bar mounts and doing the bushing but we'll see.

I also think this is a great deal.

http://kspecracing.com/truhart/truhart_suspension_arms/ths101/i-521080.aspx

a separate set of front trailing arms with no mounts is $110 so I could sell the rears and still have my clean look.

Still on the fence at this point though.

freds

03-14-2013, 06:51 AM

We are all going to have to drill (and maybe tap) the LCA's to fix the coil over shocks. I expect FF will supply a template for accurate location.

16166

Erik W. Treves

03-14-2013, 06:59 AM

welcome to kitcar building.

longislandwrx

03-14-2013, 07:27 AM

We are all going to have to drill (and maybe tap) the LCA's to fix the coil over shocks. I expect FF will supply a template for accurate location.

16166

there are two casting bumps right there, so I imagine the holes are referenced from those spots.

freds

03-14-2013, 07:51 AM

welcome to kitcar building.

Hi Erik....I have the tools and equipment. I wasn't whining, merely observing...ha-ha

fred

longislandwrx

03-27-2013, 06:16 AM

Well I picked up another set of aluminum lateral links for $50 this will give me an all aluminum setup with no sway bar mounts. (from all the pictures I see the upper mount should provide plenty of camber adjustment) I will probably pick up the turn in concepts comfort bushing set as well, or just run the stock ones for a while if the condition is ok. As far as trailing arms, I'll wait and see if the chassis offers rear caster adjustment before getting a set of adjustable ones.

edit... looks like there's not really any caster adjustment. I wonder how wheel hop is going to be.