'66 Mustang with windsor 302 First Start! Video Added!

[David Hodgkins]

Hey guys,

I picked up a '66 mustang from a friend that was 4/5 the way through a resto-mod rebuild. It has a new 302 in it and we are going for first start(!)'

We have a couple of issues related to wiring and possibly the fuel pump.

First, can you verify that I have routed the fuel lines correctly through the mechanical fuel pump? there is a hole above the input (as I routed it). Here's a pic:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15859&d=1362423795

Secondly, we went for first start and when we turn the key to the start position, nothing happens. I we reverse the wires on the front of the solenoid(red with gray, brown), the engine cranks. We are using a 1 wire alt and starter so the wiring is a little non standard.

Any ideas greatly appreciated! Here's a pic of the solenoid:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15860&d=1362423800

Help!

:)

[David Hodgkins]

:) Help?

[mrmustang]

:) Help?


Let's start with the basics.

Wiring



15865

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15865&d=1362438747


Spark at the plug (or spark plug wire)


Fuel at the carb.


Bill S.

[David Hodgkins]

I can't crank the motor to test for spark. We've checked the fuses and we are good there...

The car has an starter on it that only requires one cable from the starter relay. The yellow wire in the pic is no longer used and that is why it's just hanging there...

[David Hodgkins]

I got a call from MatStng and after discussion we zero'd in on the starter neutral switch. Gee, I guess I forgot to mention that the car was converted from an automatic to a manual transmission! So I looked under the dash and found that that circuit was still there! I bypassed it and the engine cranked! So I put a timing light on #1 wire and verified we have spark! On to fuel. We cranked the motor for 30 seconds and still no fuel in the carb bowls so I diconnected the fuel pump to verify that the in and out ports are correct, which they are. We cranked the motor for 10 seconds and when I lifted my finger off the port I verified that it had (a little) pressure. The hardline also started leaking fuel so I know we have fuel at least that far.

We cranked the car some more but no fuel in the bowls yet. How long should it take to get fuel to the carb on a new system? The battery was draining so we quit and put the tricle charger on for overnight.

Can I "Prime" the carb with fuel? Will that help? or should we just crank it some more? Again, how long do we have to crank the motor to get fuel into the bowl on a first start?

:)

[mrmustang]

Get yourself a can of starter fluid, spray for a few seconds in to the carb, crank the motor. It should not take two or three times before the motor fires.


Bill S.

[Someday I Suppose]

What Bill said. Engine spray is the best option, but have also done a tiny bit of gas down the carb as well to get it to fire up. If it hasn't been run in a long time, the mechanical pump is just going to have a bear of a time drawing fuel through the whole system and filling the carb without running.

Scott

[David Hodgkins]

Is starter fluid something I can get at pep boys or kragan auto parts?

[David Hodgkins]

Also, what should I set initial timing to?

[Dan Babb]

When I was doing the engine swap on my 52 Dodge, I had a brand new fuel system. I used my air compressor and a towel and covered up the filler neck. Pushed some air in the tank and a bit of pressure built up and pushed fuel through the lines, pump and into the carb. Didn't over do it...just wanted to get enough fuel moving to prime the pump.

Don't know if it will work on your tank...but my tank didn't have a check valve (it vents through the filler cap).

[CraigS]

Dan's idea is a good one, just be careful. I have seen a couple of tanks turn into something resembling a football. Hold the towel or rag very loosely at the filler and ideally have someone else watch the pump end of the fuel line.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I don't like the starter fluid, especially on a fresh engine because it washes the lubrication. Prime the carb by filling a syringe with gas and adding it through the float bowl vent tube. Once you have gas in the bowl if you activate the throttle while looking down the venturis you should see the accelerator pump shot. When you have that you ought to be good to go!

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 BTDC should be a good place to begin for timing.

Jeff

[mrmustang]

Also, what should I set initial timing to?

10-15 degrees


Is starter fluid something I can get at pep boys or kragan auto parts?

yes, any auto parts store should have it. use it sparingly, crank the motor, spray a little in the carb at the same time, you should hear the engine want to fire. This will assist the fuel pump in siphoning gas from the tank and pulling it through the system.

DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT send air through the system as this will have the opposite effect of what you want to happen.


Bill S.

[David Hodgkins]

I got the starter fluid and tried to start.

NOT.

The starter is making a sound like the teeth aren't engaging:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcKqp31cToQ

I put an olmmeter on the battery and it reads 12.37, the same as my other car. Jumping the battery has no effect on the sound.

Help?

:(

Does the fact that the starter was on an automatic before mean anything? It was cranking last night.

I'd hate to have to go get another starter but I can if I have to...

[mrmustang]

The starter is making a sound like the teeth aren't engaging:
Help?

:(

Does the fact that the starter was on an automatic before mean anything? It was cranking last night.

I'd hate to have to go get another starter but I can if I have to...

David,

The 3/4 spd starter is not the same as the automatic starter.

Maybe you should give us all of the details as to what you changed and what you did not before we go any further.

Bill S.

[David Hodgkins]

The starter is from a automatic. I'm getting info on the flywheel and bellhousing to find out what starter I should be using...

:(

The motor is a new 302. I wonder if I can just get one from pep boys.

[mrmustang]

The starter is from a automatic. I'm getting info on the flywheel and bellhousing to find out what starter I should be using...

:(

The motor is a new 302. I wonder if I can just get one from pep boys.

Starter, yup..........

Also make sure you have a ground strap from the back of one of the heads to the frame rail or firewall.

Bill S.

[David Hodgkins]

Now I'm confused. The starter that is on the car (and was cranking the motor last night) is from a 66 auto car with a single wire. The motor in it now is a newly built 302. The 302 starters I looked at have a small motor and a built-in solenoid. And the gear is offset from center. I do not know how many teeth are in the flywheel. I was told that the flywheel was for a 302 with the T5 transmission. This is turning messy...

[David Hodgkins]

I took the starter off and counted the teeth of the flywheel. 157. Which means that the starter for a manual '66 289 (which is the same as a '68 302) should work, as it is also a single wire starter. So I went out anf procured one and installed it.

Bill, do I still need to ground the engine with this setup?

I sprayed some starter fluid in the carb and got the the engine to crank but it was doing so with with great difficulty. I think it was due to the spark happening way before the top of the stroke. I turned the distributor clockwise and got a sputter, but the starter started acting up again. This time it sounded like it wasn't engaging. I took a reading on the battery and I was at 12.2 so I put the charger on it and closed up for the night.

I'm feeling good about tomorrow!

:)

[Jeff Kleiner]

David,
Yes, you need a good ground to the engine and if you are lacking one it could explain some of the slow/hard cranking issues.

FYI, the starters with remote solenoid like you have were used up through 1992. The integral solenoid style came afterwards.

Good luck,
Jeff

[Someday I Suppose]

David, curious to see with the battery fully charged up how you make out. Like Jeff, check the ground, both on the starter and the engine. That click click sound in your video, does the car still have a voltage regulator in it? I feel like on the 65 I had I would get that same sound when the battery wasn't up to charge.

Scott

[Ringo]

Only a rookie here but just got my 347 back from the builder he said because of the cam he used I had to use the firing order order for a 351. I have not had the first start yet.

[David Hodgkins]

Ringo, I've been told the firing order is correct from the previous owner. I'll keep that in mind though. :)

I'm off to get a ground strap. The battery is charged and hopefully today we'll have first start!

:)

[QSL]

hang in there dave, you guys will get it! good luck.

[mrmustang]

I'm off to get a ground strap. The battery is charged and hopefully today we'll have first start!

:)

Dave, admit it, this is your first "non fuel injected" project ever, isn't it :D

[David Hodgkins]

Dave, admit it, this is your first "non fuel injected" project ever, isn't it :D

Gee, how'd ya guess?

Turns out the starter I got last night was wrong. I measured the distance between the plate and the back of the flywheel and found out that it is 1-1/8 inches. Therefore I needed the "long nose" starter, not the short nose one. So that was replaced today.

No more starter issues.

We tried starting it again today and are really close. We poured some gas down the bowl breathers and it starts to catch and then doesn't. Then I found the big hole in the back of the intake. 'Doh! Got that plugged and it ALMOST started.

Still no gas at the carb from the mechanical fuel pump. I might replace that tomorrow. Do you have a recommendation for how much fuel it should flow. The one I have looks like it is 80GPH. The engine should be putting out close to 400HP. Will a 80 GPH pump be big enough for that task?

We're getting closer but not there yet...

:)

[mrmustang]

Still no gas at the carb from the mechanical fuel pump. I might replace that tomorrow. Do you have a recommendation for how much fuel it should flow.
:)

Forget about fuel flow, 6psi (no more) is the maximum you want for a mechanical fuel pump on a carbureted engine such as yours.


Bill S.

[mike forte]

Hi Dave,
Call me when you're with your car tomorrow. we can go over a bunch of simple questions and get it running.
What carb do you have?
Note: I use a syringe to squirt gasoline into the sight plug hole to get fuel in the fuel bowl. Then I depress the accelerator pump lever the pump fuel into the intake.
Mike Forte
508 875 0016 anytime up to 10pm EST

[David Hodgkins]

Hi Mike,

It's a Holly street avenger carb.

:)

[David Hodgkins]

Check out this video on YouTube!


http://youtu.be/GrF3HngCs4Q

:D

[frankeeski]

Sounds like you are getting there.

[mrmustang]

Getting closer, sounds like you have a massive vacuum leak somewhere.


Bill S.

[Someday I Suppose]

Dave, congrats on the start, getting there for sure. Wondering with Bill, not only your first carb, but also your first project with a belt driven fan??? :-)

[David Hodgkins]

Dave, congrats on the start, getting there for sure. Wondering with Bill, not only your first carb, but also your first project with a belt driven fan??? :-)

Ok funny guy, this ain't my first rodeo,
Just the first flying solo! ;) I will check for vacuum leaks this morning, hopefully today is the last day getting through this.

:)

[QSL]

Thats exciting! Car looks really good too from what i can see. Lucky guy there!

[David Hodgkins]

Getting closer, sounds like you have a massive vacuum leak somewhere.


Bill S.

Bill, you NAILED it! I went out to check again (Remember, I didn't build this engine!) and found a hole the size of my finger in the back of the intake under the carb! I went down to Ace Hardware, got a 3/8 brass plug, put on pipe dope and installed it.

Voila! Started right up and purrs like a kitten!!

Proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRluScyK-cs

Thanks for your help guys! On to installing a clutch cable (car was converted to manual) and brakes! I think we'll be on the street this weekend!!

WooHoo!

:)

PS thanks Mike, the car is in good condition, and hopefully we'll have it by your place for you to inspect soon!

[QSL]

sounds great!!!! Must feel good

[mrmustang]

Bill, you NAILED it! I went out to check again (Remember, I didn't build this engine!) and found a hole the size of my finger in the back of the intake under the carb! I went down to Ace Hardware, got a 3/8 brass plug, put on pipe dope and installed it.

Voila! Started right up and purrs like a kitten!!


Thanks for your help guys! On to installing a clutch cable (car was converted to manual) and brakes! I think we'll be on the street this weekend!!

WooHoo!

:)

PS thanks Mike, the car is in good condition, and hopefully we'll have it by your place for you to inspect soon!


Dave,

I'm surprised that nobody else heard it in your video.......Glad it worked out for you.


Bill S.

[Someday I Suppose]

Dave, sounds great, good deal getting it sorted out. Sounds great and will be fun to see you get her back on the road.

[David Hodgkins]

Thanks Scott, we hope to have it on the road real soon. The MustangSteve.com clutch cable setup was installed his weekend but the cable itself was an odd length so I measured it and ordered a new adjustable one from Mike Forte. I will be here later this week and we should be able to move the car under it's own power by this weekend. The brakes are our final hurdle. They need to be massaged a bit still, details to come as we hit snags (like we won't...)

:)

[mrmustang]

Since you are in California, might I suggest you take a look at the Mustangs Plus web site and or showroom :D .

[xatudor]

Just wondering if the brakes use a vacuum booster, if so I think that hole in the manifold behind the carby that you plugged is for the vacuum line to the brake booster check valve.

[Someday I Suppose]

It wouldnt be any fun if there werent any snags.


Thanks Scott, we hope to have it on the road real soon. The MustangSteve.com clutch cable setup was installed his weekend but the cable itself was an odd length so I measured it and ordered a new adjustable one from Mike Forte. I will be here later this week and we should be able to move the car under it's own power by this weekend. The brakes are our final hurdle. They need to be massaged a bit still, details to come as we hit snags (like we won't...)

:)

[mrmustang]

Just wondering if the brakes use a vacuum booster, if so I think that hole in the manifold behind the carby that you plugged is for the vacuum line to the brake booster check valve.


if the car has power disk brakes it does use a vacuum source at the back passenger side of the manifold. If it is not a power brake booster, then no, it would not need a vacuum source