Scoping things out to get started

[David Hodgkins]

Moving this from a blog to the Roadster section...

cstaples352 asks:

I've been looking through my catalog I just received in the mail. My better half and sound of reason is interested in being involved in our selection process. Has anyone built a MK4 with a 351w? I'm trying to decide between the 302, Coyote or the 351w. I have no need for the 427 where I have no intent on racing or have anywhere descent for that type of horsepower. Any suggestions????? Please.

[CraigS]

Absolutely, there are many 351s in FFRs. I think it is the best engine for these cars. The engine itself is internally stronger than a 302 so it can do more later if you decide you want to. The intake and headers and distributer are different for a 351 vs a 302. So, if you make the decision first, you have those parts which will still be correct for an engine up to 427 CID w/ a special block or up to 408 w/ a stock block. The nice thing about the extra cubes compared to the 302 is that any given amount of HP you desire can be had in a more streetable engine. Mine is nothing more than a stock rebuild short block w/ a mild cam and Edelbrock heads and intake. This gives a super mild mannered 400 hp which is a really good number for an FFR. Another advantage of the 351 vs Coyote is that it looks right for the car when you open the hood.

[frankeeski]

The wonderful thing about these cars is that there are no poor engine choices. Right now I am running the stock donor 302. Figure after 236,000 miles it has close to a whopping 170 horsepower. Just know that even with that the car moves out really well. The new motor is nearly ready to be dropped in and I am going to nearly triple the power. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?5856-New-Bullet!&highlight=bullet I am going to take an alternative view from Craig in that my feeling is that any motor looks at home under the hood of a Factory Five. Shelby changed with the times and quickly embraced fuel injection making cars like the Dodge Shelby Daytona and the Dodge Omni GLH bad *** cars that went like stink. I am by no means a purist and my view is that if this car was built today it would have the latest technology, so a Coyote motor is a fine power plant with lots of torque and horsepower that doesn't mind being revved past what a normal push-rod engine would grenade at. In the end the choice is yours, again there is no bad choice. Have fun with it regardless of which direction you choose.

[skullandbones]

Hope you don't mind me chiming in even if mine is a MkIII. The 302 is the first Ford engine I ever worked on that I owned. Helped other guys with theirs and worked on all Chevys except for a few foriegns like fiat and porche. I got a tell ya, that little 302 is a hell of an engine. After I figured out it's idiosynchrocies like number one on the right instead of left and so on, I really like it. I have two other short blocks to rebuild. I think I may stroke one to 347 to get that extra boost from the displacement (as someone mentioned) but all in all the engine puts out a lot of power for it's size. I have go karted mine and it has serious power. The EFI (modified quite a bit) is fantastic. It starts every time. The crazy thing is if you go with an after market tuner, you might find another 75 to 100 hp without changing any components. Of course, you can do that with the 351 too but just to say, the 302 can produce more power than you think. If you are an rpm junky then I guess the Coyote would be your best bet. Any one of those engines will like great in the roadster. Have fun trying to decide. WEK.

[Mustang Man]

The slightly taller deck height of the 351 does create minor fitment/service issues for some people. Things like spark plug access, header fit/alignment, and so forth from what I'm reading on the Mk 4. Nothing really bad, but enough people have posted about it. I have a 427W stroker in our Mk 3 and no such issues myself. Building a 351 vs. a 302 is about the same cost and you're getting 49 more cubes, so the 351 seems the more logical choice.

Oh, and on Craig's comment above. With an aftermarket block and the right stroker kit you can actually go as high as 450-460 cubes in a Windsor... :D

HTH...
Mark

[Avalanche325]

I am still building and have an empty engine bay, so my $.02 may only be worth $.01.

For a touch of reality....
Almost anything you put in one of these will be fast and fun. As you go over 400hp it gets to be more bragging rights than increased performance.

Make your 1st choice easier. Windsor or Coyote? (leave 302 vs 351 out of it for now)

There are a couple items to think about:
1. Do you LIKE old school or new school? Looks, sound, etc.
2. Budget. They don't exactly give Coyotes away. Modifying them is expensive, but they are stout right out of the box. And you may find a donor one for a good deal.
3. Carb or EFI?

Coyotes are new technology, powerful, smooth, and quieter until you stand on it.
Windsors are old technology, you can make them very powerful by stroking and changing heads, relatively cheap. TONS of aftermarket parts.

Personally, I like old school in these cars. Looks and sound-wise. I don't think a smooth idling roadster feels right. I would rather have a smaller slightly nasty engine than a bigger smooth one it this type of car. I have heard a couple that sound like an F150 when they idle. That doesn't work for me.

See if you can figure out what gives you goose bumps. THAT is the correct answer.

[Mark Reynolds]

Ford Racing x-302 is by far the best bang for the buck - plus it is the right engine for the car, 340hp is more than you can really use on the street, relatively good gas mileage, light weight, smaller main bearing than the 351 (less heat) and can burble along at 1000rpm on level surface or knock your socks off.

[SCFFR]

x2 with Avalanche325.
Decide what kind of look/technology you want.
How much horsepower do you want/need based on how you plan to use the car
Budget
Can't go wrong with any choice you make!

[tirod]

I'm going 351W. The 302 isn't a bad choice, but the current 5.0 isn't quite the same motor as a 289. It's been trimmed of any excess cast iron, which at the upper limits means there is a potential weakness, but it's lighter weight, too. Nonetheless, the kits are pushing 48/51 weight distribution, so another 70 pounds in front for the 351W is moot. However, that 70 pounds gets you the capability to have up to 700hp from a stock block. If the hp fever hits, you don't necessarily have to toss it out and start over the way a stock 5.0 might be forced to.

A further advantage to the 351W is the extra deck height - it's got another inch taller bore, and the cam is elevated, too. That means dropping in a stroker crank is basically an exercise in home engine building, instead of race shop. You don't have to extensively grind on the block and run close with the big ends of the rods, like the 350 Chevy - they are limited to 383, and can be problematic at that. It's why the 351W is the better choice for strokers. Having another 50 cubic inches in the motor at the typical 1 hp per inch nets 50 extra horse - all at the bottom end, not a peaky 6,000 rpm. That means it's hp you get to use on the street, in lower gears, where it really means something. And it doesn't come at the expense of installing high rpm valve gear and the associated high stresses, either. Expensive springs, exotic rockers, etc, won't give you the 50 hp as cheaply and reliably as the 50 cubes.

These are kits, and anyone can do what they want, but the genre of the car is retro. Yes, Shelby shopped around and used what he could get, and technology does change. That's also a benefit - if the Coyote sounds like a great deal, it's going to be mostly crate stock in the build. The 351W has 30 years of development, tho, and the late block are roller cam, the aftermarket offers heads with serious hp right out of the box, and you have a choice of EFI or carb. The Coyote is just now starting to get attention with a carb manifold, but in that light, it's throwback. The cams available are all EFI compliant, which is a different kind of tuning to accommodate mass air sensors, not the low vacuum lumpy idle type.

There's good choices out there, but the motor isn't the focus on a well done kit. There are a lot of other points to get better, including using the upgrade spindles with lower SAI, having dual piston calipers front and back, getting appropriate final drive ratio and what kind of limited slip or locker, anti roll bar tuning, shock and spring rates, a dash layout that works for you, modern high tech wiring instead of chopped up used harnesses, and plumbing that works without needing an aircraft mechanic to service it. 400hp is a great starting point, and the the 351W can deliver it easily with less expense and go into the chassis with less modifications. That puts more money into areas you can, rather than tilting the odds into the motor consuming too much available cash, which they seem to do in cubic foot increments, like when the itch for a set of 180 degree headers keeps nibbling at budget.

The motor can be pretty much a commodity item, but on a kit build it's also part of what the owner wants expressed in aesthetic terms. Kits allow that, even when the builder uses a different make or options it with luxury items. Given that the typical street rod could have anything under the hood, including a belt drive supercharged 5 cylinder in a 34 Ford, do what you feel is right. It only has to satisfy you. There's always someone out there who would criticize, haters gonna hate, it's there way of pretending to be of a higher social class. We pretty much are going to ignore them anyway.

[kevin12973]

If you like your foot pedals being pushed over tight together to the side then go with a wide motor like a modern modular motor. Buy racing shoes to help a little but you will still be hitting the gas while braking once in a while. I have a 351 and pushed the foot box out as far in to the headers as possible and have wilwood adjustable pedals so its not to bad but wish I went with a 302 based engine to get more room in the foot box. Buy the way my feet are size 10. I sat in the FFR MK4 with the Coyote and was not at all happy with the foot pedal layout. I dont know how anyone could think that is acceptable or safe. If your cruising go with a 302 base motor. My next build will have one but have the same power as my 351 base engine(400 hp).

[skullandbones]

Don't want to get off track but space in the driver's side footbox is directly related to the choice of engines. I have a MkIII and the oil dip stick ring that you put your finger in just misses the vertical inside footbox panel. What kevin12973 speaks to is the very limited space for side to side movement is a problem. I think the best solution for the most serious issue (trottle and brake control) would be soved by Jeff Klieiner's mod which gives an extra inch or so to keep the left side of you shoe from getting trapped under the brake pedal. That could be very dangerous in a panic situation with no time to think about what is happening. I believe the mod will work for just about any one of the ones mentioned but I'm not sure about the header clearance. This is one of the first redos I will be doing when the body comes off again. I have a size 11 1/2 D shoe so it is close and will require a special driving shoe. I also have the Wilwood pedals which help some but I had to reform the accelerator pedal a little to get the best position for safety's sake. I have spent more time in redesigning the foot box than any thing else. So when you choose your engine be very aware of the possible issues. It's much easier to fix them even before the engine is in place. Good luck, WEK.